Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[CenSin]

Starting to become really excited for the Second Avenue Subway Opening! 

 

However, there is one service change that I would make that is different from what they are proposing, and it regards those four to five ’s that will "short-change” at 96th instead of 57th like they currently do. 

 

The reason short-change was in quotes was because it’s hard to call it a short-change when it goes on a completely different route for four stops. I understand why they have to do it, as Ditmars Blvd can’t accommodate all those trains, but my proposal re-routes those short-turns: 

 

The four (or trains under this proposal) will short turn at Queensboro Plaza, relaying on the express tracks south of 39th Avenue and heading back into service on the southbound tracks at Queensboro. 

 

Here are the Pros and Cons I see:

 

PROS:

 

1: The will stay on it’s intended route, so passengers that have been riding the to Astoria for 30 years won’t get confused as to why the train is running on a different route, especially since there are no signs posted. When it stops at 57th, regular passengers assume the train is going out of service or something.

 

2: Those ’s stop at Queensboro, so the passengers transferring to the Line (and there are a lot of people that do that) don’t have to double transfer to get to their final stop. Five extra trains to Queensboro from Manhattan on the would be nice for those transferring passengers. 

 

3: After deadheading on the Express Tracks, the trains will re-enter service at Queensboro empty, so transferring passengers won’t be faced with packed trains from the Astoria Line if they are lucky enough to find one of those trains. 

 

4: Keeps those four trains stoping at packed stations that are vital stops, like Lexington/59th, and 5th Avenue. 

 

5: Enhanced flexibility, as either the or can short-turn at Queensboro. Currently, it would be hard to have a short-turning as it would have to switch to the express tracks. 

 

6: Passengers going to Second Avenue probably wouldn’t board a south of 57th, as people would think that it’s going to Astoria, even if the display says differently, so the trains won’t be used much north of 57th. 

 

CONS:

 

1. Time wasted short turning or on the Astoria Express Tracks. 

 

2. Four fewer trains heading up via Second Avenue, but the isn’t going up there to help the , it’s going there because Ditmars can’t turn trains fast enough. 

 

------------

 

Ultimately, the current system with short-tuning ’s at 57th makes sense, it gets trains back downtown the fastest, and passengers just cross the platform for Astoria service, but 96th and Queensboro are about the same distance from each other (Queensboro is 3 stops and a river, 96th is 4 long stops). 

 

Between the choice of three over-packed stops that could use extra service and four stops that most passengers think the serves exclusively (and thus passengers might mistakenly pass up on the for a to be safe), the choice is obvious. 

 

For those interested, the short turned at Queensboro during the first Manhattan Bridge repairs frequently, so it’s definitely possible. 

 

What are your thoughts?

What does the MTA do about those (N)s when the comes into being one day? It must take them off 2 Avenue.

[R42N]

What does the MTA do about those (N)s when the comes into being one day? It must take them off 2 Avenue.

 

Putting them on Second Avenue to begin with is stupid. Queensboro is better for passengers, avoids the future service change you were alluding to. 

[RR503]

I'm 100% with you R42.

Queens commuters should get 1st priority here, and your idea seems to do that. The 60th street tube trains are all packed -- I know someone who frequents the Lexington Ave stop, and he describes it as being like a stampede, with people climbing over the sides of stairs etc. Any capacity here would be helpful.

[Caelestor]

Starting to become really excited for the Second Avenue Subway Opening! 

 

However, there is one service change that I would make that is different from what they are proposing, and it regards those four to five ’s that will "short-change” at 96th instead of 57th like they currently do. 

 

The reason short-change was in quotes was because it’s hard to call it a short-change when it goes on a completely different route for four stops. I understand why they have to do it, as Ditmars Blvd can’t accommodate all those trains, but my proposal re-routes those short-turns: 

 

The four (or trains under this proposal) will short turn at Queensboro Plaza, relaying on the express tracks south of 39th Avenue and heading back into service on the southbound tracks at Queensboro. 

 

 

Just note that there will technically be no trains to 96 St. They'll be signed as trains via Sea Beach. In the other direction, they'll be trains from 96 St.

 

 

FWIW, I think cramming more trains through the 60 St tunnel is not good for reliability purposes.

 

What does the MTA do about those (N)s when the   comes into being one day? It must take them off 2 Avenue.

 

Why do we need to remove   trains from SAS? I think the route via Times Sq and Herald Sq will be more popular than the .

Edited December 18, 2016 by Caelestor

[R42N]

Just note that there will technically be no trains to 96 St. They'll be signed as trains via Sea Beach. In the other direction, they'll be trains from 96 St.

 

FWIW, I think cramming more trains through the 60 St tunnel is not good for reliability purposes.

 

I didn’t know that, but still, the 60th St Tunnel is not “beyond” capacity, the Ditmars terminal is. Also remember that the tunnel lost a few trains per day with the leaving last month.

 

The choice of four trains with vital connections to the Lexington Avenue Line (which serves way more East Side stops) and the Flushing Line, which is arguably the biggest transfer to/from the Broadway Line, or the trains to a further distance to stops with no noteworthy connections and no need for extra service is a non-brainer for me.

Edited December 18, 2016 by R42N

[Around the Horn]

Terminating at Queensboro Plaza would be a mess. 96th Street is the better terminal for those extra trains.

[Mysterious2train]

However, there is one service change that I would make that is different from what they are proposing, and it regards those four to five ’s that will "short-change” at 96th instead of 57th like they currently do. 

 

The reason short-change was in quotes was because it’s hard to call it a short-change when it goes on a completely different route for four stops. I understand why they have to do it, as Ditmars Blvd can’t accommodate all those trains, but my proposal re-routes those short-turns: 

 

The four (or trains under this proposal) will short turn at Queensboro Plaza, relaying on the express tracks south of 39th Avenue and heading back into service on the southbound tracks at Queensboro. 

 

 

It doesn't matter if 60th St is not at capacity on paper - it's still a complete mess. I assume with you're familiar with the merging delays between the , and .

 

Also, the peak* direction headways (by peak I mean, downtown in the AM and towards 96th in the PM) on Second Avenue are garbage (~8 mins for most of the rush) so I definitely support throwing in a few trains.

 

What does the MTA do about those (N)s when the comes into being one day? It must take them off 2 Avenue.

Don't worry, the 2nd Av trains are no more than 2 trains per hour. Who knows how often service will be then? The amount of service scheduled for 2nd Av is much less than what the MTA predicted in the Environmental Impact Statement (If you're curious - 14 SB trains per hour in the AM Rush during phases 1, 3 and 4, 19(!!!) SB trains per hour during phase 2, 12 reverse-peak trains per hour in the AM, and the also running 14 trains per hour).

 

 

Putting them on Second Avenue to begin with is stupid. Queensboro is better for passengers, avoids the future service change you were alluding to. 

 

Phase 3 is what, 15 years away in the absolute best case scenario? It should have no bearing on current service.

 

I'm 100% with you R42.

Queens commuters should get 1st priority here, and your idea seems to do that. The 60th street tube trains are all packed -- I know someone who frequents the Lexington Ave stop, and he describes it as being like a stampede, with people climbing over the sides of stairs etc. Any capacity here would be helpful.

 

Lexington Av/59 St is a madhouse, especially the transfer between the Lex and Broadway, which is why we should provide adequate service on an alternate line (i.e. 2nd Ave)

 

I didn’t know that, but still, the 60th St Tunnel is not “beyond” capacity, the Ditmars terminal is. Also remember that the tunnel lost a few trains per day with the leaving last month.

 

The choice of four trains with vital connections to the Lexington Avenue Line (which serves way more East Side stops) and the Flushing Line, which is arguably the biggest transfer to/from the Broadway Line, or the trains to a further distance to stops with no noteworthy connections and no need for extra service is a non-brainer for me.

 

The starts later and ends earlier than   service to Astoria did - that's mostly where the loss of service was. During the height of rush hour (which is what we're discussing), current service to Astoria is pretty much the same the same as it was with the . 

 

And no need for extra service? Again, peak rush hour  service as scheduled is garbage, and the Upper East Side is the single densest neighborhood in the entire city. People act like those trains will be rolling empty. 

Edited December 18, 2016 by Mysterious2train

[danielhg121]

Not a bad proposal but clearing out a train at queensboro plz is prob gonna cause delays. The train also should increase headways, crowding is an issue at queensboro plz becuz the is backed up with passengers. Would sending them down to astoria blvd and terminate on the express track be good or bad?

 

 

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[R42N]

Terminating at Queensboro Plaza would be a mess. 96th Street is the better terminal for those extra trains.

 

How would it be a mess? train used to do it when they were coming in during rush hours, and that was every 10 minutes. The short-turned wouldn’t have to turn for about 25-45 minutes, as there is only four trains per rush. They would turn on to un-used express tracks, and then come back when necessary. Not a perfect scenario, no, but turning around the at Whitehall is just as bad, and that’s not that bad.

 

Not a bad proposal but clearing out a train at queensboro plz is prob gonna cause delays. The train also should increase headways, crowding is an issue at queensboro plz becuz the is backed up with passengers. Would sending them down to astoria blvd and terminate on the express track be good or bad?

 

 

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I mean, considering you have 25-45 minutes before another short-turned arrives, you have the time, but it’s not necessary. This alleviates some of the loads on Astoria bound (N)/(W)’s from 57th-5th-Lex/59th. 

 

Clearing passengers out at Queensboro could conceivably be an issue, but I’d only see the platform be “packed” if there was a lapse in service in front of the short-turned . If that was the case, then they could just un-short-turn the short-turn, as Ditmars wouldn’t be overwhelmed thanks to the lapse. 

 

It doesn't matter if 60th St is not at capacity on paper - it's still a complete mess. I assume with you're familiar with the merging delays between the , and .

 

Also, the peak* direction headways (by peak I mean, downtown in the AM and towards 96th in the PM) on Second Avenue are garbage (~8 mins for most of the rush) so I definitely support throwing in a few trains.

 

 

Lexington Av/59 St is a madhouse, especially the transfer between the Lex and Broadway, which is why we should provide adequate service on an alternate line (i.e. 2nd Ave)

 

 

The starts later and ends earlier than   service to Astoria did - that's mostly where the loss of service was. During the height of rush hour (which is what we're discussing), current service to Astoria is pretty much the same the same as it was with the . 

 

And no need for extra service? Again, peak rush hour  service as scheduled is garbage, and the Upper East Side is the single densest neighborhood in the entire city. People act like those trains will be rolling empty. 

 

 

Lex and 59th is a madhouse, and sending trains to a destination that isn’t served by the , or isn’t a way to help that. Adding four trains to Queensboro, where one can transfer to the Flushing Line, will help. 

 

I am familiar with the bottleneck between the Astoria Line and Queens Blvd Line at Long Island City, and I don’t think one train per half hour to alleviate crowds will make it that much worse. 

 

Also, I can’t help but ask, if the is in need of extra service (even though we’ve been getting along with zero SAS service until next week), why even make these short turned ’s???Make them ’s, real ’s, via Brighton.

 

The whole reason we have these three to five short turns is because Ditmars is overwhelmed, not to add extra 2nd Ave service. The Queensboro solution gives people in three vital stops extra trains that are badly needed. Unfortunately, every place is in need of extra service, but we know for a fact that Queensboro/Lex 59 could use those trains, we don’t know what’s what for the SAS, yet.

[Around the Horn]

How would it be a mess? train used to do it when they were coming in during rush hours, and that was every 10 minutes. The short-turned wouldn’t have to turn for about 25-45 minutes, as there is only four trains per rush. They would turn on to un-used express tracks, and then come back when necessary. Not a perfect scenario, no, but turning around the at Whitehall is just as bad, and that’s not that bad.

 

 

I mean, considering you have 25-45 minutes before another short-turned arrives, you have the time, but it’s not necessary. This alleviates some of the loads on Astoria bound (N)/(W)’s from 57th-5th-Lex/59th. 

 

Clearing passengers out at Queensboro could conceivably be an issue, but I’d only see the platform be “packed” if there was a lapse in service in front of the short-turned . If that was the case, then they could just un-short-turn the short-turn, as Ditmars wouldn’t be overwhelmed thanks to the lapse. 

 

 

 

Lex and 59th is a madhouse, and sending trains to a destination that isn’t served by the , or isn’t a way to help that. Adding four trains to Queensboro, where one can transfer to the Flushing Line, will help. 

 

I am familiar with the bottleneck between the Astoria Line and Queens Blvd Line at Long Island City, and I don’t think one train per half hour to alleviate crowds will make it that much worse. 

 

Also, I can’t help but ask, if the is in need of extra service (even though we’ve been getting along with zero SAS service until next week), why even make these short turned ’s???Make them ’s, real ’s, via Brighton.

 

The whole reason we have these three to five short turns is because Ditmars is overwhelmed, not to add extra 2nd Ave service. The Queensboro solution gives people in three vital stops extra trains that are badly needed. Unfortunately, every place is in need of extra service, but we know for a fact that Queensboro/Lex 59 could use those trains, we don’t know what’s what for the SAS, yet.

You are forgetting that these trains used to get stored on the Broadway Express tracks between 57th Street and Times Square until the PM rush. Because of the fact trains will now use the express tracks all the way to 57th Street, these trains are being moved up to the 96th Street tail tracks. if the trains were to operate to Queensboro, it would make the storage of these trains a hassle.

[checkmatechamp13]

Remind me again, I think those trains are going to be reverse-peak, correct? (Uptown in the morning, downtown in the afternoon)

 

In any case, the advantage of QBP is that it's a short-turn instead of a branch, and it connects riders to the . The disadvantage is that those are extra trains switching between 34th & 42nd.

[R42N]

Remind me again, I think those trains are going to be reverse-peak, correct? (Uptown in the morning, downtown in the afternoon)

 

In any case, the advantage of QBP is that it's a short-turn instead of a branch, and it connects riders to the . The disadvantage is that those are extra trains switching between 34th & 42nd.

 

I’m fairly certain that’s the case. It’ll be a train northbound, and a train southbound, both via Sea Beach.

 

Queensboro Plz idea also connects to the Lexington Ave Line , ,  at Lex.

 

The only issue I see is the issue brought up about the storage of the train during middays. Astoria Express Tracks north of Queensboro is the only feasible option, but storage space there seems to scarce most of the time, and there is often work during middays on the local tracks...

Edited December 18, 2016 by R42N

[Mysterious2train]

Remind me again, I think those trains are going to be reverse-peak, correct? (Uptown in the morning, downtown in the afternoon)

 

In any case, the advantage of QBP is that it's a short-turn instead of a branch, and it connects riders to the . The disadvantage is that those are extra trains switching between 34th & 42nd.

 

It's both directions during both rush hours. 

 

(Why is the listed as local in the metadata? I have no clue.)

[CenSin]

If you're curious - 14 SB trains per hour in the AM Rush during phases 1, 3 and 4, 19(!!!) SB trains per hour during phase 2, 12 reverse-peak trains per hour in the AM, and the also running 14 trains per hour

Wow. I hope Phase 3 never makes it off the planning board. Broadway, Barclays Center, and Coney Island are going to be so blessed.

[Eric B]

(Why is the listed as local in the metadata? I have no clue.)

Probably forgot to update it, since it had been local again recently.

[bstar1]

Why is Local on Weekends in Manhattan?

[LegoBrickBreaker101]

Why is Local on Weekends in Manhattan?

 

Because they want more local service on Broadway when the isn't running.

[pringle5095]

Because they want more local service on Broadway when the isn't running.

Perhaps running the 24/7 can solve this issue. Another issue that I have doesn't even lie within the boroughs, but with westchester county. What about having the extended to join Pelham and extending the and together to the NY/CT state line at King St in Rye Brook?

 

 

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[Union Tpke]

Perhaps running the 24/7 can solve this issue. Another issue that I have doesn't even lie within the boroughs, but with westchester county. What about having the extended to join Pelham and extending the and together to the NY/CT state line at King St in Rye Brook?

 

 

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NO!

[pringle5095]

NO!

... what's wrong with it? I thought we were supposed to criticize constructively

 

 

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[Around the Horn]

The to Westchester is ridiculous

[Lance]

Perhaps running the 24/7 can solve this issue. Another issue that I have doesn't even lie within the boroughs, but with westchester county. What about having the extended to join Pelham and extending the and together to the NY/CT state line at King St in Rye Brook?

 

 

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There's presently no need for the to run during the off-hours. If Broadway ridership dramatically increases to warrant such service, then we can talk. Until then, it's not happening.

 

... what's wrong with it? I thought we were supposed to criticize constructively

 

 

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Alright, I'll give you some constructive criticism. Running any type of subway into Westchester would be a non-starter. Believe me, I know. Even if you could get Westchester on board with such an outlandish idea, which you won't, why should the NYC subway expand into another county when there are still transit deficiencies within NYC? Worst of all, how would these lines make their way into Westchester anyhow? I assume for the , you'd have it traverse above I-95, which is practically impossible in and of itself, but how on earth would you get the up there from Queens? Across the Whitestone?

 

This whole thing is almost laughable. Metro-North is still a thing, right? We aren't starving for transit options up here.

[Union Tpke]

The Whitestone can't hold subway trains.

[pringle5095]

There's presently no need for the to run during the off-hours. If Broadway ridership dramatically increases to warrant such service, then we can talk. Until then, it's not happening.

 

Alright, I'll give you some constructive criticism. Running any type of subway into Westchester would be a non-starter. Believe me, I know. Even if you could get Westchester on board with such an outlandish idea, which you won't, why should the NYC subway expand into another county when there are still transit deficiencies within NYC? Worst of all, how would these lines make their way into Westchester anyhow? I assume for the , you'd have it traverse above I-95, which is practically impossible in and of itself, but how on earth would you get the up there from Queens? Across the Whitestone?

 

This whole thing is almost laughable. Metro-North is still a thing, right? We aren't starving for transit options up here.

Erm, I see that now. maybe a Woodhaven/Cross Bay Blvd Line should be built connecting the Archer Av Line to the Rockaways a bit more directly. Also this would involve literally making the into a loop line.

 

 

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[bobtehpanda]

Erm, I see that now. maybe a Woodhaven/Cross Bay Blvd Line should be built connecting the Archer Av Line to the Rockaways a bit more directly. Also this would involve literally making the into a loop line.

 

 

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...? Connecting the Archer Av Line to the Rockaways via Woodhaven?