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Rutgers Tube

Curve south of Grand Central

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What is the reason for the ridiculously sharp turn and crest just south of the Grand Central station on the Lexington Avenue Line? Was there a building there or utilities which had to be avoided when the line was constructed? I believe cut and cover was used at the time, correct? Anyone who knows the line well will agree that it's almost funny to see one tourist after another smash into each other like bowling pins when they're not prepared for the hard cut.

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Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

 

What is the reason for the ridiculously sharp turn and crest just south of the Grand Central station on the Lexington Avenue Line? Was there a building there or utilities which had to be avoided when the line was constructed? I believe cut and cover was used at the time, correct? Anyone who knows the line well will agree that it's almost funny to see one tourist after another smash into each other like bowling pins when they're not prepared for the hard cut.

 

The line runs under Park Avenue south of Grand Central. Don't forget that trains used to go to the West Side before 1918. The track leads were severed except fro the downtown track where non-revenue moves are possible. As for the revenue tracts, they are forced to go under old equipment and around it and crap.

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Thank you for the reply.

 

Yeah, it's a nasty move to negotiate, and watching the motion of the car directly ahead of the one I ride in the morning, it's hard to imagine that consists have never come uncoupled. I personally think that it's taken too quickly when the signal is clear, but I'm sure than engineers have considered that move many times when establishing timers for that stretch.

 

Can anyone think of any other hard cuts like that? The L has a few gems in the Halsey - Graham area.

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Thank you for the reply.

 

Yeah, it's a nasty move to negotiate, and watching the motion of the car directly ahead of the one I ride in the morning, it's hard to imagine that consists have never come uncoupled. I personally think that it's taken too quickly when the signal is clear, but I'm sure than engineers have considered that move many times when establishing timers for that stretch.

 

Can anyone think of any other hard cuts like that? The L has a few gems in the Halsey - Graham area.

 

The ®/(W) southbound into Cortlandt St, after the sharp left turn has a very quick right turn into the station.

 

The (2)/(3) northbound into Park Place take the left-right curve sharply as well.

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The ®/(W) southbound into Cortlandt St, after the sharp left turn has a very quick right turn into the station.

 

The (2)/(3) northbound into Park Place take the left-right curve sharply as well.

 

Between 50th and 53rd on the E is a pretty sharp turn, especially as 53rd/7th is right after it.

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I'd say that park place is pretty rough, i use that station a lot, and i never really get used to the g-force.

 

The (1)'s tracks can get kind of swerving as well, i'm pretty sure this was to avoid utilities that could only be moved so much. It's really apparent between canal and tsq.

 

One other major turn that could be softened (ya i know not gonna happen :P) is the (F) when it turns into the 63rd st stretch queens bound, since that track has a tighter radius than the outer track. It's loud enough on the wheel flanges that you can hear it plainly, and some shuddering goes on if they are going fast enough. Something tells me those tracks were built with 60 foot cars in mind.

 

- A

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Taken the (6) past 14th street to 23rd street, that is a nasty curve to take if you are not used to it. The (1)(2)(3) through downtown manhattan is a little bit rough.

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Thank you for the reply.

 

Yeah, it's a nasty move to negotiate, and watching the motion of the car directly ahead of the one I ride in the morning, it's hard to imagine that consists have never come uncoupled. I personally think that it's taken too quickly when the signal is clear, but I'm sure than engineers have considered that move many times when establishing timers for that stretch.

 

Can anyone think of any other hard cuts like that? The L has a few gems in the Halsey - Graham area.

Old South Ferry?

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I could think of a few:

South of East 180 Street (2)(5)

North of Simpson Street (2)(5)

South of 149-GC (5)

South of 110 Street (2)(3)

The (:P(D)(N)(Q) probably have some between the Manny B and DeKalb.

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The speed limit is 20mph on that curve. At that speed it isn't bad. A few of my co-workers forget there are people on their trains, or they just don't give a sh!t, negotiating that curve. I have ridden in the last car, and I know how bad it is. That is why I would never keep taking power around that curve. At 20-22, I coast. Too many of them keep taking power not giving a damn about the last 4-5 cars, or that there are people in them. This is something (4) and (5) line TSS's, Superintendents, and Line Managers need to address. Not all the speed limits are followed, but there are some locations where the train goes around smoother going faster. N/B on the Lexington local tracks, from 110-116sts is 15mph. Some of us do 26-27mph. It goes around far smoother at 26-27mph. At 15mph, it bangs alot more. Grand Central and Nevins Street, if you go just 5-10mph above the speed limit, the customers will feel it.......

 

N/B on the Lex, 96-103rd is bad too when T/O's keep taking power. It is 15mph, but is smooth at 27-28mph. Some must be doing 40mph, and you feel it on that curve........

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I really do think most of the IND and BMT tunnels downtown into bk were meant to run 60 foot cars, especially the triplexes.

 

That's what i like about elevated lines, you don't have to make the structure exact, you can always cantilever out a bit to soften a curve.

 

I think the streetcar and/or elevated lines may make a comeback in NYC in the not too distant future. i've always thought the SAS should be elevated. Woulda been done by now.

 

- A

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I could think of a few:

South of East 180 Street (2)(5)

North of Simpson Street (2)(5)

South of 149-GC (5)

South of 110 Street (2)(3)

The (B)(D)(N)(Q) probably have some between the Manny B and DeKalb.

Crescent Street Curve, from Broadway Jct to Alabama Ave, off the Willy B to Marcy, between Canal and Bowery... the (J) is plagued with those curves

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TA few of my co-workers forget there are people on their trains, or they just don't give a sh!t, negotiating that curve. ...This is something (4) and (5) line TSS's, Superintendents, and Line Managers need to address. Not all the speed limits are followed, but there are some locations where the train goes around smoother going faster. N/B on the Lexington local tracks, from 110-116sts is 15mph. Some of us do 26-27mph. It goes around far smoother at 26-27mph. At 15mph, it bangs alot more. Grand Central and Nevins Street, if you go just 5-10mph above the speed limit, the customers will feel it.......

 

N/B on the Lex, 96-103rd is bad too when T/O's keep taking power. It is 15mph, but is smooth at 27-28mph. Some must be doing 40mph, and you feel it on that curve........

 

And that's why every location you've listed is on the radar gun list.

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Leavimg Grand Central on the s/b express track the posted speed is 20 mph. After the sharp left the track veers slightly right and left where it would connect with the s/b express track from the shuttle (switch removed). There is a 30 mph sign at that spot. Most T/Os accelerate at that point but I don't. I was told by an oldtimer NOT to speed up there because the rear section of the train was still in the curve and I would sling my passengers and C/R from side to side. There is a resume sign just north of 33rd St where I accelerate. The location of the 30 mph sign on the wall is either a mistake or it's a relic of the time when the shuttle express track was connected and the sign was for that track and not the present track. On a related note the n/b express track at Brooklyn Bridge has a resume sign adjacent to Worth St where most of the train is still in the curve. The original resume signs for 8 and 10 car trains are properly located just south if Canal St. but they have been painted over. Those are the signs rhat I adhere to.

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There's a whole bunch on the Nassau Lines. If a 75 footer went through that, it would be catastrophic.

 

I actually think Nassau Street can handle 75-footers up until the bridge. After the bridge and into Queens, they're banned, even the R131s which were 67' long like the BMT Standards but there was still a clearance issue. But I think Nassau can handle 75' cars because a movie was shot with an R46 along Nassau.

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There's a whole bunch on the Nassau Lines. If a 75 footer went through that, it would be catastrophic.

 

The curves near Crescent (I assume I'm talking about the right line) are pretty harsh, although I've noticed whether it be the old R42s or R160s, they take the curve at a crawl, vs. other turns which on the IRT that are handled faster.

 

From a rider's perspective, I really doubt that longer cars would ever be used on these structures. The 60 footers look like they can barely handle it.

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The speed limit is 20mph on that curve. At that speed it isn't bad. A few of my co-workers forget there are people on their trains, or they just don't give a sh!t, negotiating that curve. I have ridden in the last car, and I know how bad it is. That is why I would never keep taking power around that curve. At 20-22, I coast. Too many of them keep taking power not giving a damn about the last 4-5 cars, or that there are people in them. This is something (4) and (5) line TSS's, Superintendents, and Line Managers need to address. Not all the speed limits are followed, but there are some locations where the train goes around smoother going faster. N/B on the Lexington local tracks, from 110-116sts is 15mph. Some of us do 26-27mph. It goes around far smoother at 26-27mph. At 15mph, it bangs alot more. Grand Central and Nevins Street, if you go just 5-10mph above the speed limit, the customers will feel it.......

 

N/B on the Lex, 96-103rd is bad too when T/O's keep taking power. It is 15mph, but is smooth at 27-28mph. Some must be doing 40mph, and you feel it on that curve........

 

Grand Central northbound, the curve north of the station is also where people can get tossed (southbound there are timers to prevent this). I try to get a seat on the LEFT side of the train if possible when riding thru there Northbound though... Not worth sitting on the right side if someone might end in your lap...unless it's a pretty girl "hey how ya doin?"

 

Recently I was down there...felt the T/O put it in full power, saw a woman typing away on one of those damn blackberries, knew she was gonna be airborn or close..."stand clear of the flying objects"

 

20mph "feels" OK going through there but anything more is a bit much...

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I actually think Nassau Street can handle 75-footers up until the bridge. After the bridge and into Queens, they're banned, even the R131s which were 67' long like the BMT Standards but there was still a clearance issue. But I think Nassau can handle 75' cars because a movie was shot with an R46 along Nassau.

 

You might want to rethink that when you've rode the sections that I'm talking about. I don't remember the exact areas, but there are a couple of curves that are VERY sharp.

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You might want to rethink that when you've rode the sections that I'm talking about. I don't remember the exact areas, but there are a couple of curves that are VERY sharp.

You're right.

And I listed them before:

Crescent Street Curve, from Broadway Jct to Alabama Ave, off the Willy B to Marcy

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Also Metro-North runs under and along Park Ave.

 

That's an excellent point, especially for passenger trains due to arrive at Grand Central Terminal. Just north of the 59th Street emergency exit, trains are forced to decelerate for a "Normal" speed of 60 mph to a "Restricted" speed of 15 mph. Every morning when I hear the ATC beep, I grab a hold of the horizontal bar in the vestibule and prepare for a heavy brake application. That's aside from some of the swift cuts the train makes just south of the entrance to the Park Avenue viaduct while traveling in Normal mode.

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Leavimg Grand Central on the s/b express track the posted speed is 20 mph. After the sharp left the track veers slightly right and left where it would connect with the s/b express track from the shuttle (switch removed). There is a 30 mph sign at that spot. Most T/Os accelerate at that point but I don't. I was told by an oldtimer NOT to speed up there because the rear section of the train was still in the curve and I would sling my passengers and C/R from side to side. There is a resume sign just north of 33rd St where I accelerate. The location of the 30 mph sign on the wall is either a mistake or it's a relic of the time when the shuttle express track was connected and the sign was for that track and not the present track. On a related note the n/b express track at Brooklyn Bridge has a resume sign adjacent to Worth St where most of the train is still in the curve. The original resume signs for 8 and 10 car trains are properly located just south if Canal St. but they have been painted over. Those are the signs that I adhere to.

 

 

That 30mph must be a relic. I was told by the T/O's who I trained with on the (4) and (5)<5>, that that is the resume sign. If that was the case, why would there be a R10 ahead. It didn't make sense, cause most of the train is still in the curve and some in the station.........

 

Grand Central northbound, the curve north of the station is also where people can get tossed (southbound there are timers to prevent this). I try to get a seat on the LEFT side of the train if possible when riding thru there Northbound though... Not worth sitting on the right side if someone might end in your lap...unless it's a pretty girl "hey how ya doin?"

 

Recently I was down there...felt the T/O put it in full power, saw a woman typing away on one of those damn blackberries, knew she was gonna be airborn or close..."stand clear of the flying objects"

 

20mph "feels" OK going through there but anything more is a bit much...

 

It's another radar location (speed trap). They will see how fast that last car is going. As for a pretty lady sitting on the right, and flying in your lap while you are on the left, that is wishful thinking for you:)B):). I would rather picture a humongous hideous monster flying into your skinny lap.......

 

Or better yet a he-she (aka it (and not the ones you can't really tell if it's an it, I'm talkin bout the manly looking its)), flying into your lap B):P:P, (Wendy Williams "how u doin"???)..........

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It's another radar location (speed trap). They will see how fast that last car is going. As for a pretty lady sitting on the right, and flying in your lap while you are on the left, that is wishful thinking for you:)B):). I would rather picture a humongous hideous monster flying into your skinny lap.......

 

Or better yet a he-she (aka it (and not the ones you can't really tell if it's an it, I'm talkin bout the manly looking its)), flying into your lap :(:P:P, (Wendy Williams "how u doin"???)..........

 

If that's the case I'll be standing...

 

...And holding on to something so I don't wind up in the fatpile or the gender confusion B)

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