Today and Why We Should Retire Old Equipment Faster

[CenSin]

Today, I was heading to Canal Street from Coney Island. The happened to be running local via Whitehall Street (in both directions). I didn't want to take my chances with the , so I boarded the expecting a quick ride to Broadway–Lafayette Street where I could transfer to the downtown to Canal Street. The trip went horribly wrong, however…There was a total of 4 consecutive failures within an hour:

• Signal malfunction at Bergen Street
  
• Malfunctioning train
  
• Malfunctioning train
  
• Termination of an at Delancey Street (which counts as a failure regardless of the fact that the train was not malfunctioning)

 

Details:

• The slowed down to a crawl past Smith–9 Streets.
  
• It got stuck in Carroll Street and again at Bergen Street for a long time.
  
• It turned out that there was a signal problem at Bergen Street, and the I was on went over the Crosstown line.
  
• I hopped off at Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets and went to the Manhattan-bound platform where a train was out of service. There was a big crowd there and people were restless.
  
• The train finally pulled out, but not before several trains passed by on the adjacent track.
  
• An train pulled in and I got on, but it stalled in the station. That's when I learned from the other passengers that there was a broken down ahead of the broken train and it was taking time to get them all out of the way.
  
• When the finally moved, I got off at Jay Street–Metro Tech to find an across the platform. I got on that one and it left the station first. The was apparently rerouted through the Rutgers Street tunnel apparently.
  
• The stalled at York Street for a few minutes before moving.
  
• After another few minutes of wait at Delancey Street, the conductor announced that the was terminating at the station.
  
• I took the to Canal Street and was on my way to work…

 

I should have just taken the damn local through the bowels of lower Manhattan.

[INDman]

Do you know that nature of the equipment problems on the or trains? Also, you say that older equimpment should be retirered faster, so you mean just trains or everything in general because Bergen St Interlocking is only a few years new and has alot of problems.

[Vistausss]

What INDman said, plus what you said about the F slowing down at Smith-9th street: you do know there is work going on at Smith-9th street? Or did you expect the F-train to rush by with the chance of hitting a work person?

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Nova RTS 9147]

Do you know that nature of the equipment problems on the or trains? Also, you say that older equimpment should be retirered faster, so you mean just trains or everything in general because Bergen St Interlocking is only a few years new and has alot of problems.

 

The and fleet problems would probably be mitigated if the R44s were planned to be retired along with the R32s, instead of the playing the either/or game. And the Bergen Street Interlocking issue probably falls under that "doing it right" category.

 

What INDman said, plus what you said about the F slowing down at Smith-9th street: you do know there is work going on at Smith-9th street? Or did you expect the F-train to rush by with the chance of hitting a work person?

 

I think he expected to not go through hell and high water to get from Coney Island to Broadway-Lafayette.

[553 Bridgeton]

How many stalled trains on a trip from point A to B....sounds like you was feeling lucky.

[CenSin]

Do you know that nature of the equipment problems on the or trains? Also, you say that older equimpment should be retirered faster, so you mean just trains or everything in general because Bergen St Interlocking is only a few years new and has alot of problems.

I am not a mechanic, nor do I claim to be able to prove that these equipments need replacing, but a ride on the train would convince many people with common sense that the train wouldn't last long. The train seems okay.

 

What INDman said, plus what you said about the F slowing down at Smith-9th street: you do know there is work going on at Smith-9th street? Or did you expect the F-train to rush by with the chance of hitting a work person?

I know it goes through Smith–9 Street slowly on a normal day, but the train pulled slowly out of the 4 Avenue station and slowly out of Smith–9 Streets. There were a lot of trains up ahead that were stalled.

 

The and fleet problems would probably be mitigated if the R44s were planned to be retired along with the R32s, instead of the playing the either/or game. And the Bergen Street Interlocking issue probably falls under that "doing it right" category.

 

I think he expected to not go through hell and high water to get from Coney Island to Broadway-Lafayette.

Yes. I was not expecting hell, 4 train problems, and a logjam. I conversed with other passengers during the waiting and their sentiments seemed to be anger directed at the MTA and its workers. One of them suggested we all play the lottery since we were so "lucky" to experience so much misfortune in an hour.

 

How many stalled trains on a trip from point A to B....sounds like you was feeling lucky.

I'll say there was a long line of trains from 4 Avenue to Bergen Street.

[LRG]

You were just in the right place...at the wrong time. Sorry buddy, MTA ain't gonna use that sob story of yours as a legitimate excuse to replace their fleet any quicker than the pace that they are doing so right now.

[DJ MC]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[INDman]

he's had a rough day, let him vent.

That's not my problem.

 

I am not a mechanic, nor do I claim to be able to prove that these equipments need replacing, but a ride on the train would convince many people with common sense that the train wouldn't last long. The train seems okay.

 

 

I know it goes through Smith–9 Street slowly on a normal day, but the train pulled slowly out of the 4 Avenue station and slowly out of Smith–9 Streets. There were a lot of trains up ahead that were stalled.

 

 

Yes. I was not expecting hell, 4 train problems, and a logjam. I conversed with other passengers during the waiting and their sentiments seemed to be anger directed at the MTA and its workers. One of them suggested we all play the lottery since we were so "lucky" to experience so much misfortune in an hour.

 

 

I'll say there was a long line of trains from 4 Avenue to Bergen Street.

I'm on the line several days a week and rarely to I have any problems with the R32s that run there.

 

Also, with the work on the Crosstown Viaduct there is a lot of flagging out there to protect the workers meaning that ALL trains must pass through the area at a reduced speed and if that delays you, that's your problem. In addition to the work being performed there, a GO on the and had trains running on the from Jay St to West 4th St causing congestion and delays. It's common knowledge that there are ALWAYS service disruptions during the weekend and that it is up to YOU to know what is going on. Seeing as how you post on a transit forum, you should know more about what is going on then the average rider. Other then that, it just sounds like you had a bad day and your looking to blame people for it for no reason.

[Fresh Pond]

Wirelessly posted via (BlackBerry8520/5.0.0.900 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100)

 

Today, I was heading to Canal Street from Coney Island. The happened to be running local via Whitehall Street (in both directions). I didn't want to take my chances with the , so I boarded the expecting a quick ride to Broadway–Lafayette Street where I could transfer to the downtown to Canal Street. The trip went horribly wrong, however…There was a total of 4 consecutive failures within an hour:

• Signal malfunction at Bergen Street
  
• Malfunctioning train
  
• Malfunctioning train
  
• Termination of an at Delancey Street (which counts as a failure regardless of the fact that the train was not malfunctioning)

 

Details:

• The slowed down to a crawl past Smith–9 Streets.
  
• It got stuck in Carroll Street and again at Bergen Street for a long time.
  
• It turned out that there was a signal problem at Bergen Street, and the I was on went over the Crosstown line.
  
• I hopped off at Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets and went to the Manhattan-bound platform where a train was out of service. There was a big crowd there and people were restless.
  
• The train finally pulled out, but not before several trains passed by on the adjacent track.
  
• An train pulled in and I got on, but it stalled in the station. That's when I learned from the other passengers that there was a broken down ahead of the broken train and it was taking time to get them all out of the way.
  
• When the finally moved, I got off at Jay Street–Metro Tech to find an across the platform. I got on that one and it left the station first. The was apparently rerouted through the Rutgers Street tunnel apparently.
  
• The stalled at York Street for a few minutes before moving.
  
• After another few minutes of wait at Delancey Street, the conductor announced that the was terminating at the station.
  
• I took the to Canal Street and was on my way to work…

 

I should have just taken the damn local through the bowels of lower Manhattan.

 

That train that was Hoyt-Schermerhorn I can explain. There was a signal problem north of York St and since all uptown trains were running via the , it backed everything up all the way to Euclid Av. I was on one of those trains and they sent a Jamaica Bound via Crosstown

[CenSin]

You can't retire old equipment when

 

1. The replacement equipment isn't going to arrive for another few years.

 

2. Apparently the (A)/© lines will be where cars run their final miles before they retire, so I really am not surprised that happened.

 

Like everyone stated you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. That could happened to any train.

I'm well aware of that already. Stating that the equipment should be replaced is a desire to see the replacement be expedited, not a request to do it now. In fact, I specifically worded my post's title and the post's content to not read like a suggestion (or sob story) to the MTA. I'm merely stating my support of replacing the equipment, and that's a common opinion—common to non-rail fans who just want to see changes and don't know that the replacement equipment won't be coming for a few years or that the and lines will be where the cars run their final miles.

 

That's not my problem.

 

 

I'm on the line several days a week and rarely to I have any problems with the R32s that run there.

The MTA's figures on train reliability says otherwise and so do my feet. Being able to feel all that rattling under my heels… I know that can't be good for the train.

 

Also, with the work on the Crosstown Viaduct there is a lot of flagging out there to protect the workers meaning that ALL trains must pass through the area at a reduced speed and if that delays you, that's your problem. In addition to the work being performed there, a GO on the and had trains running on the from Jay St to West 4th St causing congestion and delays. It's common knowledge that there are ALWAYS service disruptions during the weekend and that it is up to YOU to know what is going on. Seeing as how you post on a transit forum, you should know more about what is going on then the average rider. Other then that, it just sounds like you had a bad day and your looking to blame people for it for no reason.

You're continuing to distort what I say. When did I blame anyone? How was I supposed to predict 4 consecutive failures? When did I suggest track work as the cause of delays (there was no flagging visible to me either)?

[TwoTimer]

I guess the "old equipment" you're talking about is the signal system B)

[Joe]

Being able to feel all that rattling under my heels… I know that can't be good for the train.

 

How do you know that "it" can't be good? Plenty of things can account for differences in ride, including but not limited to floor construction, suspension differences and wheel condition.

[Joel Up Front]

Suddenly, isolated incidents that just so happened to occur within moments of each other means that we need new trains. It's called shit happens.

 

Thus:

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

And it's a general one... That this is the kind of crap that happens when you have:

 

a. Old equipment that should be retired/replaced (subway cars and signals a like)

 

b. When you have workers falsifying signal reports. Seems like every week now there's some sort of signal problem.

 

The end result of all of this is that the paying passenger suffers. I feel for these guys because the service really sucks on the weekends. I feel fortunate to be able to avoid the subways during the weekend since I have access to the express bus.

 

The consensus is that outside of rush hour service and service during the week, the MTA seems to think that folks don't have places to go on the weekend, and so the subway basically shuts down. It's not even about allowing for extra time. I think it's about how long should folks have to wait and be shuffeled around just to get to their destination?

 

And as far as INDman goes, the guy only cares about himself. As long as his commute isn't interrupted he could care less.

 

I have no problem with old equipment, but if the equipment isn't getting the job done, it should be replaced in a proper amount of time. Obviously as others have pointed out, these cars can't be retired immediately since it will take time to replace them, but if anything, I think the point here is if the MTA will understand the importance of not prolonging retiring old fleet and equipment.

 

It also is another example of have fragile our subway system is.

[INDman]

And as far as INDman goes, the guy only cares about himself. As long as his commute isn't interrupted he could care less.

 

 

Wrong again dopey. I care about my friends and family too, every one else can go screw.

 

Also, since you bring up signals specifically old signals. Bergen St interlocking where the OP said there were problems, it's only 3 or 4 years old at the most.

[553 Bridgeton]

How do you know that "it" can't be good? Plenty of things can account for differences in ride, including but not limited to floor construction, suspension differences and wheel condition.

 

I read that post he made and that was the dumbest post I ever seen one make.

 

 

All trains rattle in some sort of way weather its 1 day old, or weather its 50 years old. I guess he expects to ride on a cloud.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Wrong again dopey. I care about my friends and family too, every one else can go screw.

 

Also, since you bring up signals specifically old signals. Bergen St interlocking where the OP said there were problems, it's only 3 or 4 years old at the most.

 

I forgot about your family and friends... You were the same guy in here moaning about Park Slope residents a few weeks back and looking for support for a shuttle bus because of your commute and such.... How quickly we forget, but I'm not at all surprised.

 

And as far the equipment goes, its not just about replacing the equipment. It's also about making sure that it is maintained properly, which the MTA does a poor job of as well. There was an article posted in another thread not too long ago about how costly repairs are to buses. I would imagine similar issues with the subway system as well.

[CTK246]

The real question is: could the MTA replace ALL old equipment?

Not right now, so deal with what you got.

[Nova RTS 9147]

There was an article posted in another thread not too long ago about how costly repairs are to buses. I would imagine a similar issues with the subway system as well.

 

Actually, the subway fleet is a lot better maintained than the bus fleet. Even the R32s (which need to be retired) average around 100,000 MDBF (and that's probably a gross underestimation).

 

Plus the cost of bus maintenance != to the effectiveness of bus maintenance. That article's point was "can it be done cheaper?"

[INDman]

I forgot about your family and friends... You were the same guy in here moaning about Park Slope residents a few weeks back and looking for support for a shuttle bus because of your commute and such.... How quickly we forget, but I'm not all surprised.

 

And as far the equipment goes, its not just about replacing the equipment. It's also about making sure that it is maintained properly, which the MTA does a poor job of as well. There was an article posted in another thread not too long ago about how costly repairs are to buses. I would imagine a similar issues with the subway system as well.

 

Well, I'm sure you'd care for your friends and family more then some random a$$hole walking down the street.

 

The thing though about Bergen St is that the problems that they have had there have not been switch hang ups or relays failing. They have been coding problems, Bergen St interlocking is a solid state system where everything is run through computers. I was out there 2 weeks ago when there was a code failure around 10AM. When that happened, the model board at Jay St that shows Bergen goes dark and you can't see where any or the trains are. When that happens, all the signals go red with the stop arms up, but they can't be keyed-by. This system has been less reliable then traditional relay based interlocking and because of the computers running everything, some very odd things have happened when line ups have been given. New tech is not always the answer.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Actually, the subway fleet is a lot better maintained than the bus fleet. Even the R32s (which need to be retired) average around 100,000 MDBF (and that's probably a gross underestimation).

 

Plus the cost of bus maintenance != to the effectiveness of bus maintenance. That article's point was "can it be done cheaper?"

 

We also discussed the costs of doing subway work in another thread to some degree and how perhaps costs could be reduced (i.e. reducing overtime, etc.)

 

I would certainly agree with you that the subways are rather efficient in terms of break downs, but even the MTA has admitted that many signals are outdated and need to be replaced.

[Joe]

It's easy to visually inspect a relay to determine whether or not it picks up (or drops out.) On the other hand, it's usually difficult to debug a finished computer program.

 

As someone who understands relay-based and solid state-based interlockings, i'll say without a doubt that I trust relays a lot more than I trust some unknown garbage code running on a flaky platform.

[Nova RTS 9147]

As someone who understands relay-based and solid state-based interlockings, i'll say without a doubt that I trust relays a lot more than I trust some unknown garbage code running on a flaky platform.

 

Question: Out of curiosity, which OS does this new system run on?