Overnight subway service

[West End]

The can't run local if the the runs 24/7. That's because it would jam the local tracks on the Broadway Line resulting in a decrease of subway service.

 

Sorry, my "other thoughts" heading = ideas that are proposed by others but ones I wouldn't really implement. It's more important to run the as a local than revive the . riders are already pretty satisfied with their late night service.

[Shortline Bus]

The can't run local if the the runs 24/7. That's because it would jam the local tracks on the Broadway Line resulting in a decrease of subway service.

 

Could not agree more. Not that I endorse it but it would not be that upset if the ran as a Broadway Local between 57th and Canal. Main thing is this adds only an extra 5 minutes to the trip and would give Local riders on Bway line train service every 10 minutes between 2-5am.

That assuming the stays as a Bay Ridge 'shuttle' overnights.

 

If the became a 24/7 line then the must stay as an express train. You don't need all 3 Bway lines to run local if that ever occurred.

[TwoTimer]

This would make more sense than many of the overnight suggestions so far...

 

IRT

No change.

Express Manhattan, decrease headway to 15 min.

148-Chambers St, Local Manhattan, relay SF loop.

Decrease headway to 15 min.

No change.

Pelham-Bowling Green.

No change.

 

BMT/IND

Decrease headway to 15 min.

Express Brooklyn, Decrease headway to 15 min.

No change.

No change.

No change.

No change.

No change.

Met-Essex St.

No change.

No change.

Whitehall-95.

 

Notes:

1. In the IRT, 10 min headway on 7av is maintained, countdown clocks help with express timing. The extra trains on the is needed between Franklin and Flat and 149-GC going north.

2. At Chambers Lenox trains keep on going around the loop and back out the other end, much like at Brooklyn Bridge during the day.

3. It is not good to bother the two pockets the as at South Ferry, keeps flexibility in case a train goes BO.

4. The reason Dyre service is left alone is because while not convenient, the has nowhere to sit out of the way of other road trains after E180 (149-GC means the train has to be cleaned out before it can relay at 138, going further downtown is overly redundant service with the running more often).

5. The extra service on the Jerome line is needed from 149-GC going north.

6. The to Bowling Green is done during some GO's anyway. This is the most optional of the additions.

7. A few extra trains on the and are needed. The reason the service patterns on CPW are not switched is because the switches in homeball alley doesn't allow for easy moves from 1 to 3. The express track from 168-145 are used for layups, as well as 5 track in homeball alley.

8. Since the can arrive on the outside where the usually comes in, this can be done, and only one extra train is needed. 10 min headways from Myrtle to Essex while not needed is helpful.

9. Whitehall serves infinitely more purpose than 36th (cross-platform transfer to the to continue north). Also with the also going to Manhattan, the can remain express on 4th Av.

[Shortline Bus]

Good job Twotimer. Personally i would only run 15-minute headways on the

'A' '4' '6' on Friday and Saturday Nights. Don't think the 'D' needs 'owl' 15-minute headways other than summer weekends overnights. Instead the '1' should run 15-minute 'owl' headways on weekends.

 

Only disagreements is that there should be a way for the '5' to be extended at least to 149-GC for connection to the '4'. The other is that the Rockaway Park Shuttle w/ hourly headways could be extended to Euclid instead of waiting in brutal cold or heat in summer in middle of nowhere at Broad Channel.

 

Your other proposals I agree 100%.

 

This would make more sense than many of the overnight suggestions so far...

 

IRT

'1' No change.

Express Manhattan, decrease headway to 15 min.

148-Chambers St, Local Manhattan, relay SF loop.

Decrease headway to 15 min.

No change.

Pelham-Bowling Green.

No change.

 

BMT/IND

Decrease headway to 15 min.

Express Brooklyn, Decrease headway to 15 min.

No change.

No change.

No change.

No change.

No change.

Met-Essex St.

No change.

No change.

Whitehall-95.

 

Notes:

1. In the IRT, 10 min headway on 7av is maintained, countdown clocks help with express timing. The extra trains on the is needed between Franklin and Flat and 149-GC going north.

2. At Chambers Lenox trains keep on going around the loop and back out the other end, much like at Brooklyn Bridge during the day.

3. It is not good to bother the two pockets the as at South Ferry, keeps flexibility in case a train goes BO.

4. The reason Dyre service is left alone is because while not convenient, the has nowhere to sit out of the way of other road trains after E180 (149-GC means the train has to be cleaned out before it can relay at 138, going further downtown is overly redundant service with the running more often).

5. The extra service on the Jerome line is needed from 149-GC going north.

6. The to Bowling Green is done during some GO's anyway. This is the most optional of the additions.

7. A few extra trains on the and are needed. The reason the service patterns on CPW are not switched is because the switches in homeball alley doesn't allow for easy moves from 1 to 3. The express track from 168-145 are used for layups, as well as 5 track in homeball alley.

8. Since the can arrive on the outside where the usually comes in, this can be done, and only one extra train is needed. 10 min headways from Myrtle to Essex while not needed is helpful.

9. Whitehall serves infinitely more purpose than 36th (cross-platform transfer to the to continue north). Also with the also going to Manhattan, the can remain express on 4th Av.

[TwoTimer]

The only thing is the to Mott gets in the way of service (which would be on 15 min headways as trains can't relay downstairs with passengers. The headway is a stretch, I know, it really can remain the same and just run local in Brooklyn.

[Princelex]

The only thing is the to Mott gets in the way of service (which would be on 15 min headways as trains can't relay downstairs with passengers. The headway is a stretch, I know, it really can remain the same and just run local in Brooklyn.

 

Nah your idea for the is perfect. Headways need to increase and it should be faster than it is so you are on the right track. :tup:

[GreatOne2k]

could run to 125 St and end there on the uptown express track as the and could just enter 125 St uptown on the uptown local track. That would be better in terms of not getting in the way of any trains. This way the will also connect to the (and eventually so will the and later the ).

 

Another idea would be to just run the to/from Bowling Green until 11pm/12am, then start E 180 St shuttle service (11pm S/B/1am N/:P.

[TwoTimer]

could run to 125 St and end there on the uptown express track as the and could just enter 125 St uptown on the uptown local track. That would be better in terms of not getting in the way of any trains. This way the will also connect to the (and eventually so will the and later the ).

 

Another idea would be to just run the to/from Bowling Green until 11pm/12am, then start E 180 St shuttle service (11pm S/B/1am N/:P.

 

There's a lot of work train moves and the such that need the switches in the tube, that wouldn't be available. Also the runs express northbound until almost 2am (by time it gets to 125st). That's yet another reason why that wouldn't work, and why Grand Central wouldn't work either. The reason Times Sq works on the west side is because the is local southbound by 12am, and northbound by 1230am. I know you guys are dying to give Dyre people a two seat ride (or better) to stations from Morris Park on north (instead of the three seater like it is now, four from Lex local stations until the starts local), but the answer isn't simple once that last train leaves Bowling Green.

[GreatOne2k]

There's a lot of work train moves and the such that need the switches in the tube, that wouldn't be available. Also the runs express northbound until almost 2am (by time it gets to 125st). That's yet another reason why that wouldn't work, and why Grand Central wouldn't work either. The reason Times Sq works on the west side is because the is local southbound by 12am, and northbound by 1230am. I know you guys are dying to give Dyre people a two seat ride (or better) to stations from Morris Park on north (instead of the three seater like it is now, four from Lex local stations until the starts local), but the answer isn't simple once that last train leaves Bowling Green.

 

The easiest solution for the is just to run full length service until around midnight, and minimize the transfers, slightly bridging the gap until the runs local. Something else would have to be cut to allow for this to be cost neutral.

[TwoTimer]

The easiest solution for the is just to run full length service until around midnight, and minimize the transfers, slightly bridging the gap until the runs local. Something else would have to be cut to allow for this to be cost neutral.

 

Yup, its either 180 or Bowling Green, no good middle ground answer.

[Wallyhorse]

This would make more sense than many of the overnight suggestions so far... (removing the "no change")

 

IRT

Express Manhattan, decrease headway to 15 min.

148-Chambers St, Local Manhattan, relay SF loop.

Decrease headway to 15 min.

Pelham-Bowling Green.

 

BMT/IND

Decrease headway to 15 min.

Express Brooklyn, Decrease headway to 15 min.

Met-Essex St.

Whitehall-95.

 

Notes:

1. In the IRT, 10 min headway on 7av is maintained, countdown clocks help with express timing. The extra trains on the is needed between Franklin and Flat and 149-GC going north.

2. At Chambers Lenox trains keep on going around the loop and back out the other end, much like at Brooklyn Bridge during the day.

3. It is not good to bother the two pockets the as at South Ferry, keeps flexibility in case a train goes BO.

4. The reason Dyre service is left alone is because while not convenient, the has nowhere to sit out of the way of other road trains after E180 (149-GC means the train has to be cleaned out before it can relay at 138, going further downtown is overly redundant service with the running more often).

5. The extra service on the Jerome line is needed from 149-GC going north.

6. The to Bowling Green is done during some GO's anyway. This is the most optional of the additions.

7. A few extra trains on the and are needed. The reason the service patterns on CPW are not switched is because the switches in homeball alley doesn't allow for easy moves from 1 to 3. The express track from 168-145 are used for layups, as well as 5 track in homeball alley.

8. Since the can arrive on the outside where the usually comes in, this can be done, and only one extra train is needed. 10 min headways from Myrtle to Essex while not needed is helpful.

9. Whitehall serves infinitely more purpose than 36th (cross-platform transfer to the to continue north). Also with the also going to Manhattan, the can remain express on 4th Av.

 

Agree on the and , however, if you have the use the SF loop, you might as well have it stop at Rector Street before going into the loop.

 

I would have the go express, with the and both locals to Brooklyn Bridge or Bowling Green. That solves the Dyre issue.

 

The I would have express on the full route with the becoming 24/7 and extended to Lefferts overnights to eliminate the Lefferts-Euclid shuttle.

 

The I would have go to Broadway-Lafayette as long as it can be single-tracked between there and Essex (so transfers can be done to the 6th and eventually the Lexington line in both directions, otherwise, I would have it go to West 4th (using the crossover inside the express tunnel to turn around) so transfers can be made between the 6th and 8th Avenue lines (with the D local West 4th-34th). Essex can also be the terminal if that is easier.

 

The terminating at Whitehall is an excellent compromise since it allows for the D to remain express in Brooklyn while giving those going to Manhattan the option of taking the 1 from Whitehall.

[Shortline Bus]

.

 

The I would have go to Broadway-Lafayette as long as it can be single-tracked between there and Essex (so transfers can be done to the 6th and eventually the Lexington line in both directions, otherwise, I would have it go to West 4th (using the crossover inside the express tunnel to turn around) so transfers can be made between the 6th and 8th Avenue lines (with the D local West 4th-34th). Essex can also be the terminal if that is easier.

 

 

 

Playing stubborn Wallyhorse:eek:. Have you ever been on the lines along the Williamsburg in Brooklyn? or along the 6th Ave line?

 

You would create a major conga line even if the went to west 4th or Broadway-Lafayette since it has to switch to the line even overnights.

Others on the boards including myself have tried to repeat sending the to terminate at West 4th weekends/overnights is not a good idea.

 

Essex makes the most sense since it can terminate in the middle tracks and still provide a direct transfer to the if that if you trying to create Wallyhose.

 

Guys again not meant to be rude against Wallyhorse but trying to make it clear why West 4th is a terrible location to start/terminate weekend/overnight service. Even running the the full route to Forest Hills or to 57th/6th during the recent "GO" that suspended Manhattan service makes much more sense.

[Roadcruiser1]

The is already doing what the does and runs 24/7. Maybe if Queens is needed they could extend the from 34th Street to 14th Street so people could have access to Queens by transferring, but that is about it.

[Fresh Pond]

The only thing I can suggest is to bump up the headways at nights cuz 20 mins late nights is a joke. That train is busy 24/7

 

Agree on the and , however, if you have the use the SF loop, you might as well have it stop at Rector Street before going into the loop.

 

I would have the go express, with the and both locals to Brooklyn Bridge or Bowling Green. That solves the Dyre issue.

 

The I would have express on the full route with the becoming 24/7 and extended to Lefferts overnights to eliminate the Lefferts-Euclid shuttle.

 

The I would have go to Broadway-Lafayette as long as it can be single-tracked between there and Essex (so transfers can be done to the 6th and eventually the Lexington line in both directions, otherwise, I would have it go to West 4th (using the crossover inside the express tunnel to turn around) so transfers can be made between the 6th and 8th Avenue lines (with the D local West 4th-34th). Essex can also be the terminal if that is easier.

 

The terminating at Whitehall is an excellent compromise since it allows for the D to remain express in Brooklyn while giving those going to Manhattan the option of taking the 1 from Whitehall.

 

-theres no need to make the stop at Rector St since its a ghost town at that station late nights even with the stopping there. Almost no one uses that station late nights. You'll actually see more rats than passengers at that station late nights

 

-he just explained why the can't terminate at 125 St...moving along

 

-theres no need for the late at nights, just need the headways bumped up a little bit late nights

 

-for the last time... STOP PITCHING THAT IDEA, ITS NOT GONNA WORK!!!

 

I think I'm done

[TwoTimer]

When I worked as a C/R on the late PM i didnt even make an announcement just opened looked and closed lol.

[Guest lance25]

The is already doing what the does and runs 24/7. Maybe if Queens is needed they could extend the from 34th Street to 14th Street so people could have access to Queens by transferring, but that is about it.

 

Dude, we're all talking about using existing trackage, not building new extensions or brand new lines. Not to be rude, but if it has something to do with the dreaded line, Second Avenue or any other expansion ideas and it's not a fantasy thread, please keep it to yourself.

[Roadcruiser1]

Sorry about that. Yeah I should just leave it to my fantasy map as of now. I am going to use existing ROW's for now.

[GreatOne2k]

There's a lot of work train moves and the such that need the switches in the tube, that wouldn't be available. Also the runs express northbound until almost 2am (by time it gets to 125st). That's yet another reason why that wouldn't work, and why Grand Central wouldn't work either. The reason Times Sq works on the west side is because the is local southbound by 12am, and northbound by 1230am. I know you guys are dying to give Dyre people a two seat ride (or better) to stations from Morris Park on north (instead of the three seater like it is now, four from Lex local stations until the starts local), but the answer isn't simple once that last train leaves Bowling Green.

 

 

During Cold Weather plans does the late night the still terminate at 149 St? They used to say Dyre trains extended to 149 St.

 

Also

 

The terminates at 42 St while the is still express for a bit, so there is still the potential for fumigation delays. The could terminate at 42 St as well, however Bowling Green service would have to match up to the express (either extended until after 1am, or make the run local earlier).

 

 

The catch: Either the last Bowling Green N/B would have to either run express on the local tracks after 42 St (so the first 42 St can terminate at the N/B platform), or the first S/B Grand Central would have to terminate and pick up passengers on the S/B platform and reverse N/B there.

 

In the morning, the would have to begin full length service right before the runs express.

 

 

Note the used to run in Manhattan until around 1:30am in the 1950s. The cutbacks likely happened after Dyre became the terminal.

 

If the were to even have its Bowling Green hours extended, this plan could be considered.

[TwoTimer]

During Cold Weather plans does the late night the still terminate at 149 St? They used to say Dyre trains extended to 149 St.

 

Also

 

The terminates at 42 St while the is still express for a bit, so there is still the potential for fumigation delays. The could terminate at 42 St as well, however Bowling Green service would have to match up to the express (either extended until after 1am, or make the run local earlier).

 

 

The catch: Either the last Bowling Green N/B would have to either run express on the local tracks after 42 St (so the first 42 St can terminate at the N/B platform), or the first S/B Grand Central would have to terminate and pick up passengers on the S/B platform and reverse N/B there.

 

In the morning, the would have to begin full length service right before the runs express.

 

 

Note the used to run in Manhattan until around 1:30am in the 1950s. The cutbacks likely happened after Dyre became the terminal.

 

If the were to even have its Bowling Green hours extended, this plan could be considered.

1. Yes, they run full length trains (with a C/R) to 149-GC and terminate there. This has also been done on occasion during late night GO's with the ongoing work in and around E180.

2. The headways are rather large during that small stint where the is going to TS and the is still express. The same is also true Sunday mornings, when the (3)'s doing go through to Brooklyn until something like 7-8am and the (2)'s been express since like 630am northbound. But with the headways at 12 mins, rarely is there any delay, and the (3)'s get to go in and out the spur without delaying thru service.

 

I think the really big deal that just aches railfans is that 1130-1am people still looking for trains and once that 2308 Bowling Green-Dyre goes by, its 3 trains just to get to the Dyre line. When I worked the for years, on my last trip that last made a connection to me at Brooklyn Bridge and we usually left the station together (they on the express track of course). I'd make courtesy announcements at all the express stops going north that there was no service (as the automated is programmed to say as such until 12am). Of course this was before countdown timers became the norm.

[GreatOne2k]

1. Yes, they run full length trains (with a C/R) to 149-GC and terminate there. This has also been done on occasion during late night GO's with the ongoing work in and around E180.

2. The headways are rather large during that small stint where the is going to TS and the is still express. The same is also true Sunday mornings, when the (3)'s doing go through to Brooklyn until something like 7-8am and the (2)'s been express since like 630am northbound. But with the headways at 12 mins, rarely is there any delay, and the (3)'s get to go in and out the spur without delaying thru service.

 

I think the really big deal that just aches railfans is that 1130-1am people still looking for trains and once that 2308 Bowling Green-Dyre goes by, its 3 trains just to get to the Dyre line. When I worked the for years, on my last trip that last made a connection to me at Brooklyn Bridge and we usually left the station together (they on the express track of course). I'd make courtesy announcements at all the express stops going north that there was no service (as the automated is programmed to say as such until 12am). Of course this was before countdown timers became the norm.

 

On some Holidays like 4th of July the and are packed after 10:30pm. Weekend service is worse since 2229 is the last train. The doesn't just have a few standees, it can be packed. It would be helpful to have N/B service until at least midnight in Manhattan.

 

When the or terminates at 149 St GC do they ever just switch tracks and just terminate on one side of the station and reverse there (no fumigation needed, like 42 GC)? Or do they always reverse to 138 St and back?

[Shortline Bus]

On some Holidays like 4th of July the and are packed after 10:30pm. Weekend service is worse since 2229 is the last train. The doesn't just have a few standees, it can be packed. It would be helpful to have N/B service until at least midnight in Manhattan.

 

When the or terminates at 149 St GC do they ever just switch tracks and just terminate on one side of the station and reverse there (no fumigation needed, like 42 GC)? Or do they always reverse to 138 St and back?

 

 

 

Thus the reason the should run the full route from Bowling Green at least until 1230am Monday-Saturdays amd 1130pm Sundays. And the shuttle extended to at least 149-GC. If that means ending the express in Manhattan at around 1230am so be it.

[MikeGerald]

From a previous message:

 

"Note the 5 used to run in Manhattan until around 1:30am in the 1950s. The cutbacks likely happened after Dyre became the terminal."

 

Purely just for understanding, when the Dyre Avenue segment was connected for through service to the IRT's #2 and #5 tracks at East 180th Street in the Bronx - the service to/from Dyre Avenue was provided by the #2 train starting in 1957. The #2 served the Dyre Avenue segment at all times (except for the night-time shuttle operation) until 1965, when the TA decided that #5 trains would run on the Dyre Avenue segment at all times (except for the night-time shuttle operation).

 

To follow along, any cutbacks in#5 service running until around 1:30am in the 1950's, was NOT because of the #5 getting Dyre as its terminal. The #5 did not get Dyre Avenue as its terminal until 1965.

 

Just a point to note.

Mike

[Wallyhorse]

Playing stubborn Wallyhorse:eek:. Have you ever been on the lines along the Williamsburg in Brooklyn? or along the 6th Ave line?

 

You would create a major conga line even if the went to west 4th or Broadway-Lafayette since it has to switch to the line even overnights.

Others on the boards including myself have tried to repeat sending the to terminate at West 4th weekends/overnights is not a good idea.

 

Essex makes the most sense since it can terminate in the middle tracks and still provide a direct transfer to the if that if you trying to create Wallyhose.

 

Guys again not meant to be rude against Wallyhorse but trying to make it clear why West 4th is a terrible location to start/terminate weekend/overnight service. Even running the the full route to Forest Hills or to 57th/6th during the recent "GO" that suspended Manhattan service makes much more sense.

 

As said, if that was such an issue, then Essex is a compromise since it still gets the into Manhattan. My thinking was based on the fact that West 4th WAS used a terminal prior to the express tunnel being built in the 1960's.

[Guest lance25]

And your logic is flawed. Just because it worked 50 years ago under different circumstances, it doesn't mean it will work today.

[GreatOne2k]

From a previous message:

 

"Note the 5 used to run in Manhattan until around 1:30am in the 1950s. The cutbacks likely happened after Dyre became the terminal."

 

Purely just for understanding, when the Dyre Avenue segment was connected for through service to the IRT's #2 and #5 tracks at East 180th Street in the Bronx - the service to/from Dyre Avenue was provided by the #2 train starting in 1957. The #2 served the Dyre Avenue segment at all times (except for the night-time shuttle operation) until 1965, when the TA decided that #5 trains would run on the Dyre Avenue segment at all times (except for the night-time shuttle operation).

 

To follow along, any cutbacks in#5 service running until around 1:30am in the 1950's, was NOT because of the #5 getting Dyre as its terminal. The #5 did not get Dyre Avenue as its terminal until 1965.

 

Just a point to note.

Mike

 

I didn't say the 5 got cut back in the 1950s I said that it used to run much later in Manhattan than it does now in the 1950s. I don't know when the cutbacks happened, though the 5 service seems to have been cut back by the time it went to Dyre. Weekend service at one point was actually worse than it is now. Ending around 8-9pm.