Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[bobtehpanda]

This is a track map that I saw a while ago on an MTA document:

It's not a big yard but it is a yard that could hold 2 Avenue trains.

The track map shows all the 2 Avenue stations. The only differences are that 55 Street is known as 57 Street and 72 Street has two island platforms and 3 tracks instead of one island platform and two tracks.

 

If that's from the version of the plan with the 3-track 72nd St station, it's probably out of date. The three tracks were cut to save money; presumably that could've happened here as well.

[Union Tpke]

This is a track map that I saw a while ago on an MTA document:

It's not a big yard but it is a yard that could hold 2 Avenue trains.

The track map shows all the 2 Avenue stations. The only differences are that 55 Street is known as 57 Street and 72 Street has two island platforms and 3 tracks instead of one island platform and two tracks.

may you please show the rest of the document as I am a curious railfan.

This is an interesting document.

[Lance]

That big lay-up yard was probably eliminated from the plans. The most we'll see in terms of any provisions for Bronx service will likely be a couple of bellmouths right before the line curves west to Lexington Ave.

[MysteriousBtrain]

may you please show the rest of the document as I am a curious railfan.

This is an interesting document.

 

Help yourself:

http://web.mta.info/capital/sas_docs/sdeis/fig2-3.pdf

http://web.mta.info/capital/sas_docs/sdeis/fig2-4.pdf

And to the others that say it will not have a yard, the could put a yard if they want to or not. No one know what the plans would be past phrase 2. For all we know, there might not even be a phrase 3. The point is, no one knows what the would do with 2 Avenue. I'm not saying it will have a yard right away. I'm saying it MIGHT have a yard when we least expect it......

Edited November 23, 2014 by MysteriousBtrain

[MTARegional Bus]

Man Can't believe this project decades in the making is now reduce to a Manhattan shuttle 

[Lance]

Man Can't believe this project decades in the making is now reduce to a Manhattan shuttle 

Even worse, it's reduced to an extension of the Q. Unless something changes dramatically, I doubt we'll see the lower portion in our lifetimes.

[Javier]

Exactly. Whats the point of extending the to 96 Street if its not going to connect to the ?

 

By the way, will there be a free transfer to the to at 96 Street and Vice Versa?

[MysteriousBtrain]

Exactly. Whats the point of extending the to 96 Street if its not going to connect to the ?

 

By the way, will there be a free transfer to the to at 96 Street and Vice Versa?

Phrase 1 is obviously not good. But apparently the wants to extend the line slowly.

No free transfers will be created with phrase 1 besides the cross platform transfer at 63rd Street.

[Andres]

That big lay-up yard was probably eliminated from the plans. The most we'll see in terms of any provisions for Bronx service will likely be a couple of bellmouths right before the line curves west to Lexington Ave.

 

Well thats tragic because we all know and so do they that the second avenue line was being constructed to alleviate the Lexington Line and provide service when the 2nd & 3rd Avenue ELs where torn down. They should make more than just a couple of bellmouths, they should at least make a provision up to the river, it would save time and money if and when they decide to extend into the bronx. This whole phase idea for me is bullcrap on the side, they should halt construction on the East Side Access and concentrate all efforts on the SAS. Right now at the moment the SAS should be priority because that Lexington Line is struggling to keep up. They say "oh we'll just add more trains" but thats not the solution. Make the line, make provisions to extend the line and think about entering the bronx to alleviate the buses on 3rd Avenue. 3rd Avenue is the same as Lexington Avenue Line except with buses, they should concentrate on what matters and what is important. Harold interlocking can wait, bringing new haven trains into Penn Station can wait, Bringing LIRR trains into Grand Central can wait. Its all about the SAS, its a miracle these construction efforts have not stopped like in the 70s and 40s. I swear the MTA has to get their priorities straight.

 

Sorry but ive been holding a grudge with the MTA for quite a while now.

[bobtehpanda]

Exactly. Whats the point of extending the to 96 Street if its not going to connect to the ?

 

By the way, will there be a free transfer to the to at 96 Street and Vice Versa?

 

There will be no free transfer. However, the UES is so busy and dense that the MTA currently predicts ridership of 200K daily riders on SAS Phase 1 alone.

[bobtehpanda]

Well thats tragic because we all know and so do they that the second avenue line was being constructed to alleviate the Lexington Line and provide service when the 2nd & 3rd Avenue ELs where torn down. They should make more than just a couple of bellmouths, they should at least make a provision up to the river, it would save time and money if and when they decide to extend into the bronx. This whole phase idea for me is bullcrap on the side, they should halt construction on the East Side Access and concentrate all efforts on the SAS. Right now at the moment the SAS should be priority because that Lexington Line is struggling to keep up. They say "oh we'll just add more trains" but thats not the solution. Make the line, make provisions to extend the line and think about entering the bronx to alleviate the buses on 3rd Avenue. 3rd Avenue is the same as Lexington Avenue Line except with buses, they should concentrate on what matters and what is important. Harold interlocking can wait, bringing new haven trains into Penn Station can wait, Bringing LIRR trains into Grand Central can wait. Its all about the SAS, its a miracle these construction efforts have not stopped like in the 70s and 40s. I swear the MTA has to get their priorities straight.

 

Sorry but ive been holding a grudge with the MTA for quite a while now.

 

It's really funny that you mention that East Side Access should not be completed, since it comes out of the same exact plan as the 1970s SAS...

 

Adding ESA will basically allow the MTA to double service on lines that aren't hampered by severe bottlenecks (which means no extra Ronkonkoma, Huntington, Oyster Bay, or Port Jeff trains). The LIRR used to be America's busiest commuter railroad, but MNR has been able to catch up largely because it doesn't end up bottlenecking into a congested terminal the way LIRR does. LIRR is important for Long Island and New York City as well. I'd also like to add that a big portion of the rationale for SAS Phases III and IV is East Side Access; ridership on the lower segments was always projected to be lower than ridership on the upper segments, but East Side Access would bring in so many new riders that we'd basically have no choice but to build the later phases of SAS.

 

In any case, stopping now would be penny wise and pound foolish. The tunnels, station, and access shaft have already largely been dug out, so in the event of stopping work the MTA would still have to maintain and secure these facilities, which would be a hell lot more expensive than having fare-paying customers use the station. It's also probably not possible for the MTA to secure such a large, empty cavern and approach tracks; look at what happened to the 63rd St Line before it opened.

[2Line1291]

I'd just wish/hope Phases III and IV aren't designed like a half ass job like I and II are destined to be. You know two track with CBTC but it is what it is.

[Javier]

There will be no free transfer. However, the UES is so busy and dense that the MTA currently predicts ridership of 200K daily riders on SAS Phase 1 alone.

 

There will be no free transfer. However, the UES is so busy and dense that the MTA currently predicts ridership of 200K daily riders on SAS Phase 1 alone.

 

 

Phrase 1 is obviously not good. But apparently the wants to extend the line slowly.

No free transfers will be created with phrase 1 besides the cross platform transfer at 63rd Street.

 

Phrase 1 is obviously not good. But apparently the wants to extend the line slowly.

No free transfers will be created with phrase 1 besides the cross platform transfer at 63rd Street.

Exactly my point. The said that the would lower crowding from the , but whats the point of extending the to 96 Street if its not going to connect to the and and not at least have have a free Transfer like at Lexingiton Ave - 59 Street between the and . Ethier they extend the fully to 125 Street, or just give up on it as they did with the Second Ave Line. Theres at least a dozen station shells underneath NYC. And whats the point of selling train shirts if were even not gonna see the train even exist! Heres my Plan-

 

Extend the to 125 Street fully, or cut it back down to 96 Street and have 2 trains run at the same time, the at all times and the rush hours and late nights when the is going to Astoria Blvd. 

125 Street (Or 96 Street) to Coney Island All times except Rush hours and Late nIghts.

 

57 Street-7th Ave to 96 Street (Or 125 Street) during Rush Hours and Late Nights, including Weekends. 

D

 

During Weekends, both the and ( 

 

Q) run at all times on Weekdays from 63 Street to

 

96 Street to ease traffic on the (N(Q, (Q trains run to Astoria Blvd to help the (N train.

 

What do you think?

[2Line1291]

Exactly my point. The said that the would lower crowding from the , but whats the point of extending the to 96 Street if its not going to connect to the and and not at least have have a free Transfer like at Lexingiton Ave - 59 Street between the and . Ethier they extend the fully to 125 Street, or just give up on it as they did with the Second Ave Line. Theres at least a dozen station shells underneath NYC. And whats the point of selling train shirts if were even not gonna see the train even exist! Heres my Plan-

 

Extend the to 125 Street fully, or cut it back down to 96 Street and have 2 trains run at the same time, the at all times and the rush hours and late nights when the is going to Astoria Blvd. 

125 Street (Or 96 Street) to Coney Island All times except Rush hours and Late nIghts.

 

57 Street-7th Ave to 96 Street (Or 125 Street) during Rush Hours and Late Nights, including Weekends. 

D

 

During Weekends, both the and ( 

 

Q) run at all times on Weekdays from 63 Street to

 

96 Street to ease traffic on the (N(Q, (Q trains run to Astoria Blvd to help the (N train.

 

What do you think?

Well 96th St station on Lexington and Second Ave are 2 long blocks apart and any new subway service on the East Side really helps vs. just the Lexington just servicing the east side alone. It's impossible for the to terminate at 96th since it's gonna be a two track through station like 72nd and 86th St stations.

[Javier]

I know but what if they let the run as a shuttle like the ?

[bobtehpanda]

Exactly my point. The said that the would lower crowding from the , but whats the point of extending the to 96 Street if its not going to connect to the and and not at least have have a free Transfer like at Lexingiton Ave - 59 Street between the and . Ethier they extend the fully to 125 Street, or just give up on it as they did with the Second Ave Line. Theres at least a dozen station shells underneath NYC. And whats the point of selling train shirts if were even not gonna see the train even exist! Heres my Plan-

 

Extend the to 125 Street fully, or cut it back down to 96 Street and have 2 trains run at the same time, the at all times and the rush hours and late nights when the is going to Astoria Blvd. 

125 Street (Or 96 Street) to Coney Island All times except Rush hours and Late nIghts.

 

57 Street-7th Ave to 96 Street (Or 125 Street) during Rush Hours and Late Nights, including Weekends. 

D

 

During Weekends, both the and ( 

 

Q) run at all times on Weekdays from 63 Street to

 

96 Street to ease traffic on the (N(Q, (Q trains run to Astoria Blvd to help the (N train.

 

What do you think?

 

No one is going to walk from 96th St and Lex to 96th and 2nd just to make a transfer. It will still relieve the Lex, and it's projected to get a lot of riders, so I don't know what your concern is...

[Wallyhorse]

No one is going to walk from 96th St and Lex to 96th and 2nd just to make a transfer. It will still relieve the Lex, and it's projected to get a lot of riders, so I don't know what your concern is...

Exactly!!

 

The main purpose of the SAS is to take people OFF the Lexington Avenue line on the upper east side.  The UES is the most densely populated area of the entire country, which is why once the SAS does start I have in some of my proposals whatever is the second Astoria line during the week during weekends and overnights also running via the SAS to supplement the during those hours (when the is not running as often). 

[Far Rock Depot]

Let me add my two cents and add a few facts. You can't hold a grudge with the MTA for halting SAS in the 40s and 70's. During the 70's the city was in a financial hole. In the 40s, everything went to the War effort (WWII). Now you actually don't need service north of 96th st to help the Lex. Have you SEEN the stations from 96th down on the 6 alone? PACKED. These aren't Bx riders. They are UES riders! SAS up to 96th alone WILL help the Lex. @Wallyhorse: stop. Just stop. Please stop. For the love of everything pure and decent I beg of you please stop. I understand stand your wholwe "future views" but no one has any idea. Of ridership patterns 30-40 years down the road. And please leave Rockaway out of it. I'm from Rockaway. We don't need a 5/3 split between Mott and 116th. We need a faster trip to manhattan (and a little more frequency) and we could use a N/S queens x-town.

 

And as far as the idea of future T service to brooklyn, the only thing I feel that ruins the concept is the repeated notion to use the museum. Stop it. It will never be done. It will never happen. To use What's now a museum? Seriously? A new station a block north or south in a new tunnel that would connect to an existing one (doesn't have to be Fulton st) I can support.

[Wallyhorse]

Let me add my two cents and add a few facts. You can't hold a grudge with the MTA for halting SAS in the 40s and 70's. During the 70's the city was in a financial hole. In the 40s, everything went to the War effort (WWII). Now you actually don't need service north of 96th st to help the Lex. Have you SEEN the stations from 96th down on the 6 alone? PACKED. These aren't Bx riders. They are UES riders! SAS up to 96th alone WILL help the Lex. @Wallyhorse: stop. Just stop. Please stop. For the love of everything pure and decent I beg of you please stop. I understand stand your wholwe "future views" but no one has any idea. Of ridership patterns 30-40 years down the road. And please leave Rockaway out of it. I'm from Rockaway. We don't need a 5/3 split between Mott and 116th. We need a faster trip to manhattan (and a little more frequency) and we could use a N/S queens x-town. And as far as the idea of future T service to brooklyn, the only thing I feel that ruins the concept is the repeated notion to use the museum. Stop it. It will never be done. It will never happen. To use What's now a museum? Seriously? A new station a block north or south in a new tunnel that would connect to an existing one (doesn't have to be Fulton st) I can support.

It's true you can't hold a grudge against the for what happened in the 40's and the 70's.  40's were WWII, 1969-'70 and 1973-'75 saw twin recessions that were the worst since the Depression up to that point that coupled with corruption bankrupted NYC. 

 

As for the Rockaways, you know my view that a Rockaway Beach branch that would serve as a crosstown for faster service to midtown is NEEDED badly.  What else I mentioned will be years from now, but a Rockaway Beach Subway Line via QB needs to be done.

[Javier]

It's true you can't hold a grudge against the for what happened in the 40's and the 70's.  40's were WWII, 1969-'70 and 1973-'75 saw twin recessions that were the worst since the Depression up to that point that coupled with corruption bankrupted NYC. 

 

As for the Rockaways, you know my view that a Rockaway Beach branch that would serve as a crosstown for faster service to midtown is NEEDED badly.  What else I mentioned will be years from now, but a Rockaway Beach Subway Line via QB needs to be done.

So what your saying is to bring back the ?

[Grand Concourse]

I know but what if they let the run as a shuttle like the ?

There's not going to be a T till they start building phase 3 which is south of 72nd st. For now it is just the Q to 96th and later 125th st. Also they are not going to run the T as a shuttle to 57/7th. Once the Q is shifted over up 2nd av, it stays there. Probably the Mta will bring the W back to assist the N line to Astoria like it used to. 

[1995 Orion V CNG]

There's not going to be a T till they start building phase 3 which is south of 72nd st. For now it is just the Q to 96th and later 125th st. Also they are not going to run the T as a shuttle to 57/7th. Once the Q is shifted over up 2nd av, it stays there. Probably the Mta will bring the W back to assist the N line to Astoria like it used to. 

Yeah, I heard that the MTA was planinng on restoring the W line service. Hope they do, because it sucked that the 2 newest lines (both started in 2001) got canned in the 2010 doomsday mess.

[Grand Concourse]

I'd just wish/hope Phases III and IV aren't designed like a half ass job like I and II are destined to be. You know two track with CBTC but it is what it is.

Yes, hopefully it will be 4 tracks with the hope that maybe there will be an eventual connection from a Queens line down 2nd av. Even 3 tracks for phase 1 and 2 would've been ideal or even just a 3 tracked 72nd st station to short turn trains could've been helpful. But it is what it is because corners have to be cut to get the project from going way way over budget.

No one is going to walk from 96th St and Lex to 96th and 2nd just to make a transfer. It will still relieve the Lex, and it's projected to get a lot of riders, so I don't know what your concern is...

Exactly. At that point a rider should know where they are going and it's their fault if they get on the wrong line well short of their destination. By that thinking, maybe the 4 and D lines in the Bronx should have transfers to each other north of 161st since they run side by side.

The point of the SAS is to make things easier for those east of Lexington av to get to a subway line and so everyone can spread out over 2 lines instead of trying to cram onto a narrow and short irt sized train.

Yeah, I heard that the MTA was planinng on restoring the W line service. Hope they do, because it sucked that the 2 newest lines (both started in 2001) got canned in the 2010 doomsday mess.

V sorta lives on as the new M. The old M to Bay Pkwy was axed and I guess probably deserved to be since those trains were barely filled.

The W, I think survived only because Astoria ridership grew to the point where they needed 2 lines serving them. Otherwise the W would've just gone away since it was just to replace the B when 6th av service was cut from the Manhattan bridge construction. I always felt the W should've stayed as a rush hour only line since the Q basically does the same thing when extended to Astoria and the N is just so slow crossing over the tracks at Prince st to run over the bridge.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Grand Concourse

[1995 Orion V CNG]

Yeah, a rush-hour W probably would of been a better idea. I remember riding R40 slants when the W was first introduced in summer '01. This was back when they ran in Brooklyn, lol.

Edited November 24, 2014 by 1995 Orion V CNG

[Grand Concourse]

Hem, I don't remember slants on the W till after it became a part time line with the bridge work done. All I remember seeing were R68/As on it. But yeah it was a decent line. One time (during the bridge work) a W i was on must've been really late as it was sent via the N Sea beach express track to Stilwell av. Non stop from 59th-4th av.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Grand Concourse