Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Union Tpke]

Also DUMBO

[BreeddekalbL]

Oh, joy...

 

Well at least its not some weird syllabic abbreviation (although I am a fan of it in some situations like TriBeCa, NoHo, SoHo or NoMa in DC)

 

cant forget the other attempt to call south harlem SOHA

[N6 Limited]

As for Grand Street, the MTA should just dig up Chrystie Street, put the tracks down and get it out of the way.

I'd like to see an actual estimated cost difference between building the current version of Phase II and sending it up to 149th Street & Third Avenue. Surely the must have studied this option.

 

 

Especially since 'The Hub' is already an established center of activity, which itself validates the need for another subway line, connections aside. Maybe if the neighborhood were pumped and trumped up even more, it would catch more serious attention from the .

 

If Phase II does get built as currently planned, I hope they at least come around to building tail tracks on Second Avenue. We'll have both the and the services, so one can go to 125th Street and the other can go to 149th Street.

That may allow better service, since there are two terminals in case there is an issue at one of the terminals, and also with each train going to separate terminals it minimizes delays and conga lines.

[agar io]

As for Grand Street, the MTA should just dig up Chrystie Street, put the tracks down and get it out of the way.

 Even better if the MTA had a cross platform transfer.

[N6 Limited]

 Even better if the MTA had a cross platform transfer.

Yeah the shallow option allows for that, they just have to flank the existing station with tracks

[BreeddekalbL]

Also DUMBO

 

lol what was it called before my dad never heard of it before i said the neighborhood under the manhattan bridge and he's like oh.

[bobtehpanda]

Yeah the shallow option allows for that, they just have to demolish several blocks of buildings and the neighborhood's only park the existing station with tracks

 

Not this merry-go-round again.

[N6 Limited]

Not this merry-go-round again.

The neighborhood can go without a park for a blip in time for a new subway line,  I mean really. 

But they shouldn't have to destroy any buildings:

[LTA1992]

and trying to rename it to the piano district, here's what i have to say about that 

The renaming is dead I think. The plans to build the towers though, last I heard, would proceed with or without loans.

[bobtehpanda]

The neighborhood can go without a park for a blip in time for a new subway line,  I mean really. 

But they shouldn't have to destroy any buildings:

 

 

Ah, yes. The poor minorities can live without a park for a decade give or take a few years, since they're all going to get gentrified away anyways by the new subway line. (If you think I'm being facetious, Phase I took ten years from the first shovel in the ground.)

 

The buildings along Chrystie St are so old that building straight up to the building lines would probably effectively destroy them anyways. When was the last time the MTA did serious underpinning work for historical structures?

Edited April 4, 2017 by bobtehpanda

[N6 Limited]

Ah, yes. The poor minorities can live without a park for a decade give or take a few years, since they're all going to get gentrified away anyways by the new subway line. (If you think I'm being facetious, Phase I took ten years from the first shovel in the ground.)

 

The buildings along Chrystie St are so old that building straight up to the building lines would probably effectively destroy them anyways. When was the last time the MTA did serious underpinning work for historical structures?

Phase 1 was tunnel bore'd, this cut and cover work for maybe 7 blocks should not take a decade. 

[CenSin]

Phase 1 was tunnel bore'd, this cut and cover work for maybe 7 blocks should not take a decade.

There’s another option: build the lower level for 4 tracks with the 2 Avenue tracks using the outer track ways and then sink the 6 Avenue express tracks to the lower level and turn the upper level into a full-length mezzanine. If the grade will be too steep, they can shift the station down a little more to the south. Hopefully, this operation gets folded into the next Manhattan Bridge closure (north side).

[Art Vandelay]

Phase 1 was tunnel bore'd, this cut and cover work for maybe 7 blocks should not take a decade. 

The boring was done in well under 2 years. It was the cut and cover stations and cut and cover launch box that took all of the time. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Art Vandelay

[N6 Limited]

There’s another option: build the lower level for 4 tracks with the 2 Avenue tracks using the outer track ways and then sink the 6 Avenue express tracks to the lower level and turn the upper level into a full-length mezzanine. If the grade will be too steep, they can shift the station down a little more to the south. Hopefully, this operation gets folded into the next Manhattan Bridge closure (north side).

It may be too steep, doesn't the incline to the bridge begin on the south end of the station?

 

The boring was done in well under 2 years. It was the cut and cover stations and cut and cover launch box that took all of the time. 

But look how deep it is.

[HenryB]

Can they just move and build everything under the park?

 

[CenSin]

Can they just move and build everything under the park?

 

There’s quite a bit more to move north and south of the park, mind you. North of the park, it’s buildings.

[agar io]

There’s quite a bit more to move north and south of the park, mind you. North of the park, it’s buildings.

Yeah, but most are park buildings.

[agar io]

Can they just move and build everything under the park?

 

Cool photoshopping.

 

How are you going to arrange all of these tracks to make this configuration happen? Right now, your proposed 6th Avenue southbound track feeds into the current northbound track. I can kinda see how you can shift the 6 Ave tracks so the new northbound track flies over the 2nd Ave southbound track, but immediately to the north, there's the M train connector to W'burg Bridge blocking the way.

[Wallyhorse]

The neighborhood can go without a park for a blip in time for a new subway line,  I mean really. 

But they shouldn't have to destroy any buildings:

What I would be doing is at least making sure in doing this, there can also be a connection to the Bowery Station on the / so there can be transfers there.  It's too bad it can't be done in a way to also connect such to the Nassau Street Line (as part of a long-term project that would at least lengthen the Manhattan stations to 600' that would in turn be part of a longer-term plan to lengthen all Eastern Division stations to such).  

[Bosco]

IIMN, the reason for the change in the planned layout at Grand St in the first place was to avoid the underpinning of the park in the area.  In another discussion here, someone mentioned that avoiding the underpinning of Central Park was the reason for the double-level layout of CPW south of 110 St.  That said, I think there is a little bit of flexibility since there are no plans to use the existing tunnels in Chinatown for revenue service.

Either way, we have to remember that we're still aways from this happening, especially given the current political climate.  Optimistically we are 10 years away from Phase 2.  At the current rate of things, many of us probably won't even see this part of SAS open.

[Wallyhorse]

What I would be doing is at least making sure in doing this, there can also be a connection to the Bowery Station on the / so there can be transfers there.  It's too bad it can't be done in a way to also connect such to the Nassau Street Line (as part of a long-term project that would at least lengthen the Manhattan stations to 600' that would in turn be part of a longer-term plan to lengthen all Eastern Division stations to such).  

To clarify, I meant there being a passenger transfer between the Grand and Bowery stations.

 

IIMN, the reason for the change in the planned layout at Grand St in the first place was to avoid the underpinning of the park in the area.  In another discussion here, someone mentioned that avoiding the underpinning of Central Park was the reason for the double-level layout of CPW south of 110 St.  That said, I think there is a little bit of flexibility since there are no plans to use the existing tunnels in Chinatown for revenue service.

 

Either way, we have to remember that we're still aways from this happening, especially given the current political climate.  Optimistically we are 10 years away from Phase 2.  At the current rate of things, many of us probably won't even see this part of SAS open.

Right.  By the time they actually get around to this, a lot of things may have changed and perhaps people would be more receptive to "Shallow Chrystie" and also connecting to the Nassau line as well as the planned Phase 4.  

[Around the Horn]

To clarify, I meant there being a passenger transfer between the Grand and Bowery stations.

 

Right.  By the time they actually get around to this, a lot of things may have changed and perhaps people would be more receptive to "Shallow Chrystie" and also connecting to the Nassau line as well as the planned Phase 4.  

 

You honestly think people will be happy with ripping up literally half the neighborhood? In the Lower East Side? Seriously?!

[Lance]

And all for little gains at that? Yeah, I don't care how the neighborhood changes in the coming decades, there's little benefit from a 2nd Avenue - Nassau St rail connection. An "easy" southern terminal does not make up for the cost of creating a hairpin turn-style tunnel connection and the necessary work involved therein. And that's taking a shallow Chrystie build into consideration. A deep-build tunnel would be even more costly as it would involve a steep rise of the diverging tracks to reach Nassau St from its deep depth immediately passing under the existing Chrystie St connection. Also, if by some miracle, a connection is built to Nassau St, then what? You have another line that terminates at Broad St or Chambers St. Big whoop. You're never going to be able to send another full-time service to Brooklyn as DeKalb Junction is full; at least not without removing one of the existing services in the area.

 

In my opinion, a better idea would be to create a connection to the Jamaica line eastward, as was intended in the original Chrystie St plans of the '50s. It's a more useful proposition as it could theoretically free up tracks on 6th or 8th Avenue by for instance, diverting the to 2nd Avenue while otherwise maintaining the current service.

[CenSin]

In my opinion, a better idea would be to create a connection to the Jamaica line eastward, as was intended in the original Chrystie St plans of the '50s. It's a more useful proposition as it could theoretically free up tracks on 6th or 8th Avenue by for instance, diverting the to 2nd Avenue while otherwise maintaining the current service.

Any track map or high-level diagram of the plan?

[2Line1291]

As far as Second Ave into Brooklyn the is fine the way it is. Constructing a brand new Atlantic Ave Tunnel for the and lines will streamline operation on Second Ave with the tying in with Fulton Ave Local tracks to Euclid Ave and the tying in with Culver Ave Express tracks to Coney Island. In the case with Bergen Ave, this now justifies re-doing Bergen Ave lower level station.