Best article I've read about reactivating the Rockaway Beach line

[Threxx]

Not only is the "slow" in terms of headways, it's literally slow, for some reason, it just crawls along its route.. At least it does whenever I'm on it.

 

 

Yes, that's why in my original plan, I swapped the with the as local & express, which needs to be done in my opinion, since the is the longer route.

[Roadcruiser1]

Yes, that's why in my original plan, I swapped the with the as local & express, which needs to be done in my opinion, since the is the longer route.

 

 

The used to run on the Astoria Line, but they swapped it so it would have access to the yards.

 

Check a map! The Roosevelt terminal station is nowhere near the old line. Taxes won't increase themselves, and in this bad economy, no one needs more tax money. Congestion pricing is a novel idea, but will never happen. And don't get me started on tolls. Even if the went up to 12, the could go up to 8. There is space, you are basing all of your argument on the hypothetical and impossible. The super express tunnel has no money to be funded with! I don't know what world you are living in, but on Earth, there is no money to fund it. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's just not feasible.

 

 

You know that the congestion pricing and the taxes might happen since it is proposed again right now. Either way if the doesn't run there at least increase service on the and extend it like in the proposal I made a while back.

[Threxx]

The used to run on the Astoria Line, but they swapped it so it would have access to the yards.

 

I said as local & express, not the terminals...

 

 

You know that the congestion pricing and the taxes might happen since it is proposed again right now. Either way if the doesn't run there at least increase service on the and extend it like in the proposal I made a while back.

 

 

Extending the or wil create a long-a** route that will make current riders unhappy, and will not meet the Rockaway riders' needs properly. The wouldn't be too long, and it would be more reliable.

[Roadcruiser1]

I said as local & express, not the terminals...

 

If you are talking about express service on the Astoria Line that failed. If you are talking about making the express and local that isn't possible since the swapping would cause confusion.

 

Extending the or wil create a long-a** route that will make current riders unhappy, and will not meet the Rockaway riders' needs properly. The wouldn't be too long, and it would be more reliable.

 

 

The is the longest line in the entire subway system and I don't see any people complain. Also the is 65 stations long An extended would only have 39 stations and since part of the line has 4 tracks it can skip several stations making it possible.

[Brighton Express]

The is the longest line in the entire subway system and I don't see any people complain. Also the is 65 stations long An extended would only have 39 stations and since part of the line has 4 tracks it can skip several stations making it possible.

 

 

But an extended makes no sense at all. It is basically looping to where it came from.

 

I think they need to make something for the in the future, like what RoadCrusier1 said, and it wil be the only time I agree with him. This will start underground at Roosevelt Av, and run Super-Express to 71 Av, then down to the Rockaways. This would help people who live out in the Rockaways without having to take the for the for the at Broadway Junction.

 

To replace the , lets designate this line the . It will run 10 Car R160 consists to 71 Av, or 8 Car R160 consists to Court Sq. The will be put to PS/Viaduct Express, making it stop at Church Av, 7 Av and Bergen Street. The will end at Church Av, and provide Local service along the Viaduct area. Bergen St lower level will have to be re-done though.

 

In essence, we have the Roosevelt Av to Beach 116 St, the Church Av to Court Sq/71 Av, and Express trains to Church Av with a Bergen Street transfer. If you want, you could just add more cars onto the , and designate the new line as the .

[Roadcruiser1]

But an extended makes no sense at all. It is basically looping to where it came from.

 

I think they need to make something for the in the future, like what RoadCrusier1 said, and it wil be the only time I agree with him. This will start underground at Roosevelt Av, and run Super-Express to 71 Av, then down to the Rockaways. This would help people who live out in the Rockaways without having to take the for the for the at Broadway Junction.

 

To replace the , lets designate this line the . It will run 10 Car R160 consists to 71 Av, or 8 Car R160 consists to Court Sq. The will be put to PS/Viaduct Express, making it stop at Church Av, 7 Av and Bergen Street. The will end at Church Av, and provide Local service along the Viaduct area. Bergen St lower level will have to be re-done though.

 

In essence, we have the Roosevelt Av to Beach 116 St, the Church Av to Court Sq/71 Av, and Express trains to Church Av with a Bergen Street transfer. If you want, you could just add more cars onto the , and designate the new line as the .

 

 

There is no need for a line. It's absolutely foamerish. However I think there might be a future subway service. It's just not going to happen now. Not for a long time.

[Brighton Express]

There is no need for a line. It's absolutely foamerish. However I think there might be a future subway service. It's just not going to happen now. Not for a long time.

 

 

Read your ish carefully. I said let us DESIGNATE it the . I never said we needed it to be the .

[Roadcruiser1]

Read your ish carefully. I said let us DESIGNATE it the . I never said we needed it to be the .

 

 

Sorry. Still not going to happen, but a extension would be good. The problem which I have is the chance that it might get reduced or eliminated if it runs on the local track which I am trying to point out. Any extension onto the local track is variable. That means it's unstable. There is a chance it can be reduced or eliminated thanks to the and .

[Brighton Express]

My plan solves BOTH the Rockaway Line and Culver Express problems however.

[Guest Lance]

Just want to say something here. I see you guys mentioned how the would basically be a loop if it ran from Middle Village to the Rockaways. Not that I'm saying it would or should be the new Rockaways route if this plan were to come to fruition, but it really shouldn't matter whether the line will form some type of loop around the city. Similar to what was said when the numerous debates on the merits of the now-current line popped up here and on the other forum, most riders won't ride the line from end to end. In fact, the only folks that probably would do something like that would be us folks here.

 

Just my two cents. Carry on folks and just a reminder: keep it civil.

[Far Rock Depot]

There is no need for a line. It's absolutely foamerish. However I think there might be a future subway service. It's just not going to happen now. Not for a long time.

 

"absolutely foamerish"? Like extending the G, M and building super express tunnels and stations isnt?

 

and to comment on a previous post, "Because of constant requests about the being extended instead".....who (other than heads here) has been requesting the G to return to QB? Last time i checked, the G was shortened to LIC because of Commuters ACTUALLY requesting 4 lines to manhattan and not 3. For someone who keeps quoting the 1929 plan (which btw you cant claim it was said in there the G was planned to Rockaway), History seems to elude you. No personal offense intended.

 

Just want to say something here. I see you guys mentioned how the would basically be a loop if it ran from Middle Village to the Rockaways. Not that I'm saying it would or should be the new Rockaways route if this plan were to come to fruition, but it really shouldn't matter whether the line will form some type of loop around the city. Similar to what was said when the numerous debates on the merits of the now-current line popped up here and on the other forum, most riders won't ride the line from end to end. In fact, the only folks that probably would do something like that would be us folks here.

 

Just my two cents. Carry on folks and just a reminder: keep it civil.

 

Well said.

 

And from a Rockaway perspective, just being able to connect directly to northern queens routes without taking the bus is all we want!

If those here who are trying to jam ideas down our throats would really listen to what riders are requesting and put their personal wants aside for a second, what would be heard is something thats really simple, and with little construction needed. I believe i was the first one in this thread to mention the Roosevelt terminal and ramps to the QB. No super express tunnel needed. No "extend this line but we will have to re vamp 3 major manhattan trunk lines to do it and build all these tunnels cause QB {in the 20 years or so before this MAY happen} wont, even with the probability that CBTC will be in effect on QB by this future time cause this WILL be the plan"

 

As i stated before, The most logical "What if" would be to provide Roosevelt-Rock Park service (which was also stated by another) Because when it all comes down to it, the rider's pattern is to just provide service to QB. Us Rockaway residents want to avoid taking the bus up to QB from Rockaway and avaid having to go into brooklyn by train to do this.

And if you dont believe me, pick up an issue of "The Wave" Its Rockaways local paper. and for the last 20+ years, every article aboput bettering subway service involves the LIRR RoW to QB as the primary. Lance said it best "Most riders dont ride from end to end".

We call ourselves transit enthusiasts but how many of us can turn off that feature in our brains and this logically as an average rider when coming up with these "what ifs"? Just because some of us here are "know-it-alls", doesnt mean we are.

 

 

"foamer fights" this should be making a fortune for a new dvd series! LMAO!!

[T to Dyre Avenue]

It really wouldn't even be a loop. The Rockaways are a long way off from Middle Village. And the current M service is not really that long of a route. It just has a lot of merges to deal with. But for most M riders that wouldn't be an issue, since most of the M's riders don't ride from end to end.

[Far Rock Depot]

It really wouldn't even be a loop. The Rockaways are a long way off from Middle Village. And the current M service is not reaaly that long of a route. It just has a lot of merges to deal with. But for most M riders that wouldn't be an issue, since most of the M's riders don't ride from end to end.

 

This is true. But then theres the issue of overnight service.

How would one have a shuttle on each end during overnight hours. A new line (or one created from extending the current Rock Pk train) only reaching QB would eliminate that issue.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

My plan solves BOTH the Rockaway Line and Culver Express problems however.

It solves neither "problem" (are they even problems to begin with?). You have the G turning into a glorified shuttle between the Rockaways and Roosevelt Ave via super-express tracks (new construction reqired). Then you have another service, which you call K, operating between Church and Court Square or 71st Ave. Is there a difference between your K service and the present G service, other than having it possibly continue to 71st Ave (like the G used to)? Would your K service run via Manhattan? Because if not, you won't be able to run the F express between Church and Bergen.

[Far Rock Depot]

My plan solves BOTH the Rockaway Line and Culver Express problems however.

It solves neither "problem" (are they even problems to begin with?). You have the G turning into a glorified shuttle between the Rockaways and Roosevelt Ave via super-express tracks (new construction reqired). Then you have another service, which you call K, operating between Church and Court Square or 71st Ave. Is there a difference between your K service and the present G service, other than having it possibly continue to 71st Ave (like the G used to)? Would your K service run via Manhattan? Becuae if not, you won't be able to run the F express between Church and Bergen.

 

The "problem" seems to be the lack of said service.

Heres a problem i see: how is the G to run from Roosevelt to 71st then to the rockaways when the Row is basically between Woodhaven and Rego Park stations??

THe biggest complaint is that people look at maps to make up services yet this one in particular is even missing the map perspective.

 

And who said that the concept of This RoW service HAS to be used by a current QB line???

[Roadcruiser1]

My plan solves BOTH the Rockaway Line and Culver Express problems however.

 

No it does not. The Crosstown Line has no access to the express tracks whatsoever.

[Roadcruiser1]

This is the IND Second System Plan. Look closely at the Rockaway Line and the Queens Boulevard Line.

 

[Roadcruiser1]

This is true. But then theres the issue of overnight service.

How would one have a shuttle on each end during overnight hours. A new line (or one created from extending the current Rock Pk train) only reaching QB would eliminate that issue.

 

The idea is there is enough room to add more trains. As of currently if the was used it could run perhaps an additional 5+ trains per hour. This would offer more frequent service, and if this does happen with the just saying then the would perhaps become a 24/7 subway line operating with less service during late nights, but frequent service during the daytime.

[Trainmaster5]

"absolutely foamerish"? Like extending the G, M and building super express tunnels and stations isnt?

 

and to comment on a previous post, "Because of constant requests about the being extended instead".....who (other than heads here) has been requesting the G to return to QB? Last time i checked, the G was shortened to LIC because of Commuters ACTUALLY requesting 4 lines to manhattan and not 3. For someone who keeps quoting the 1929 plan (which btw you cant claim it was said in there the G was planned to Rockaway), History seems to elude you. No personal offense intended.

 

 

 

Well said.

 

And from a Rockaway perspective, just being able to connect directly to northern queens routes without taking the bus is all we want!

If those here who are trying to jam ideas down our throats would really listen to what riders are requesting and put their personal wants aside for a second, what would be heard is something thats really simple, and with little construction needed. I believe i was the first one in this thread to mention the Roosevelt terminal and ramps to the QB. No super express tunnel needed. No "extend this line but we will have to re vamp 3 major manhattan trunk lines to do it and build all these tunnels cause QB {in the 20 years or so before this MAY happen} wont, even with the probability that CBTC will be in effect on QB by this future time cause this WILL be the plan"

 

As i stated before, The most logical "What if" would be to provide Roosevelt-Rock Park service (which was also stated by another) Because when it all comes down to it, the rider's pattern is to just provide service to QB. Us Rockaway residents want to avoid taking the bus up to QB from Rockaway and avaid having to go into brooklyn by train to do this.

And if you dont believe me, pick up an issue of "The Wave" Its Rockaways local paper. and for the last 20+ years, every article aboput bettering subway service involves the LIRR RoW to QB as the primary. Lance said it best "Most riders dont ride from end to end".

We call ourselves transit enthusiasts but how many of us can turn off that feature in our brains and this logically as an average rider when coming up with these "what ifs"? Just because some of us here are "know-it-alls", doesnt mean we are.

 

 

"foamer fights" this should be making a fortune for a new dvd series! LMAO!!

Thank you. That was my initial take on what the author of the article was asking for. A route from southern Queens up to the northern section using the existing ROW, period. The foamers have ignored the original intent and have added their own spin on a very simple request. Can the ROW be restored for use to provide such a service ? That was the question. I personally think it can be done without the outlay of millions(billions) of money the MTA doesn't have. As pointed out nowhere in the idea was a physical connection to the QBL envisioned.

[Vistausss]

This is the IND Second System Plan. Look closely at the Rockaway Line and the Queens Boulevard Line.

 

 

I thought the IND Second System was from 1929? Your map is from 1939.

[Threxx]

I thought the IND Second System was from 1929? Your map is from 1939.

 

They tried again in 1939, but money problems got in the IND's way again.

[Threxx]

Thank you. That was my initial take on what the author of the article was asking for. A route from southern Queens up to the northern section using the existing ROW, period. The foamers have ignored the original intent and have added their own spin on a very simple request. Can the ROW be restored for use to provide such a service ? That was the question. I personally think it can be done without the outlay of millions(billions) of money the MTA doesn't have. As pointed out nowhere in the idea was a physical connection to the QBL envisioned.

 

Yes, that was the request, but such a line would be pointless if it had no connection to Manhattan. Rockaway riders want a better subway connection to Manhattan, and that just won't cut it.

[Far Rock Depot]

I thought the IND Second System was from 1929? Your map is from 1939.

 

Exactly! This was the plan using the bellmouths west of Rego Pk.

 

The original plan from 1929, For which the Roosevelt terminal platform and ramps, looks like this:

 

 

 

Now if one was to read up on the history of the 1929 plan, one would see that back then, there were no definite plans as to what lines were to run, and with every revision made to it after, was still basically in the planning stages. Now here we are, 80 years later. And Rockaway residents just want to be able to reach QB via subway and not bus.

Roadcruiser, You do realized you basically contradicted yourself. YOUR plan to extend the M is the opposite of you stating clearly over and over again in this thread that there will be no room for more trains on QB.

Fact is, even with its new routing to Forest Hills, Theres a reason the MTA does not have that line 24/7 nor will anytime soon. Overnights the QBL is served by an E local, and the 6th ave line has the F 24/7.

 

To fight fire with fire, heres what would be MY plan if i felt i "ruled the MTA"

Reactivate the RoW. Add An at-grade jct just south of Liberty Jct. some tunneling would be needed on the north end to bring the line to connect to the QBL including a station that can connect to the Rego Pk stop with the future option of making use of the bellmouths for expantion.

The service? Simple, No more Rock Pk S. Instead, a new "Queens Crosstown" route from Rock Pk to Queens Bl, 24/7, with the highest use being during the summer weekends. Its simple, low-cost (compared to the other "ideas" posted here), doesnt require increased QBL capasity and ....heres the kicker....REALISTIC!

And from someone who actually uses Rockaway service!

[Far Rock Depot]

Yes, that was the request, but such a line would be pointless if it had no connection to Manhattan. Rockaway riders want a better subway connection to Manhattan, and that just won't cut it.

 

Says who?

ANYTHING is better that the current option!!!! We want faster service, especially to midtown, even though it would require a transfer, a direct train is not the priority of Rockaway residents. Having an option of getting to midtown without going thru brooklyn and lower manhattan is what Rockaway riders want!!!

How is it pointless? Especially since it will still have "a connection to mahattan"!!

[Threxx]

Exactly! This was the plan using the bellmouths west of Rego Pk.

 

The original plan from 1929, For which the Roosevelt terminal platform and ramps, looks like this:

 

 

 

Now if one was to read up on the history of the 1929 plan, one would see that back then, there were no definite plans as to what lines were to run, and with every revision made to it after, was still basically in the planning stages. Now here we are, 80 years later. And Rockaway residents just want to be able to reach QB via subway and not bus.

Roadcruiser, You do realized you basically contradicted yourself. YOUR plan to extend the M is the opposite of you stating clearly over and over again in this thread that there will be no room for more trains on QB.

Fact is, even with its new routing to Forest Hills, Theres a reason the MTA does not have that line 24/7 nor will anytime soon. Overnights the QBL is served by an E local, and the 6th ave line has the F 24/7.

 

To fight fire with fire, heres what would be MY plan if i felt i "ruled the MTA"

Reactivate the RoW. Add An at-grade jct just south of Liberty Jct. some tunneling would be needed on the north end to bring the line to connect to the QBL including a station that can connect to the Rego Pk stop with the future option of making use of the bellmouths for expantion.

The service? Simple, No more Rock Pk S. Instead, a new "Queens Crosstown" route from Rock Pk to Queens Bl, 24/7, with the highest use being during the summer weekends. Its simple, low-cost (compared to the other "ideas" posted here), doesnt require increased QBL capasity and ....heres the kicker....REALISTIC!

And from someone who actually uses Rockaway service!

 

 

Get this, though! A line that only gets steady use on summer weekends will FAIL. You just contradicted your own argument about it being realistic. The can and should be extended along the RoW, and even in the future, the Winfield Spur from Roosevelt can be built. Thats all hypothetical. Point is, a line that dosen't reach Manhattan from the Rockaways will fail. It will only get used on summer weekends, and other times, people will use the express bus or the Cross Bay/Woodhaven buses.

 

Says who?

ANYTHING is better that the current option!!!! We want faster service, especially to midtown, even though it would require a transfer, a direct train is not the priority of Rockaway residents. Having an option of getting to midtown without going thru brooklyn and lower manhattan is what Rockaway riders want!!!

How is it pointless? Especially since it will still have "a connection to mahattan"!!

 

 

Where will the line terminate? How will it connect to QB lines? The line needs to go to Manhattan. Are you saying that Rockaway riders don't want a one seat ride to Midtown?