B35 via Church Posted May 16, 2012 Share #501 Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) Don't see why Rockaway riders shouldn't have a choice. You will never know if there is demand or not if you don't try. Rockaway needs better connections to Brooklyn. Not everyone has a car. It would make many two bus trips possible that are now impossible. No one ever surveys the riders to determine their needs. I just rode the B4 to get petition signatures. You would be surprised to see all the places where the people live who use that route. There even was someone from Staten Island on it. And someone took it just to see what Sheepshead Bay looks like. Because they already have the A within the Rockaways, that's why.... Those patrons chose to live out there. If the Q35 didn't exist, then I could see the push you're trying to make for this Q51 of yours.... b/c it would provide Rockaway riders access to our borough which wouldn't have existed otherwise.... But advocating for another route down to the Rockaways from Brooklyn, I'm still not seeing as necessary - regardless if it serves a subway line that the Q35 does not..... you can't ignore that... What next, a route from the Rockaways to the F train? The N perhaps.... Surely you're not gonna make a point of contention out of ONE Staten Islander you saw on the B4.... Yeah, people come from all over, that's not news to anyone.... As far as not everyone having cars, also obvious..... If you're gonna use that as a defense to sending a bus route somewhere, then you may as well have a bunch of unnecessary bus routes all over the place...... Edited May 16, 2012 by B35 via Church 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted May 16, 2012 Share #502 Posted May 16, 2012 Because they already have the A within the Rockaways, that's why.... Those patrons chose to live out there. If the Q35 didn't exist, then I could see the push you're trying to make for this Q51 of yours.... b/c it would provide Rockaway riders access to our borough which wouldn't have existed otherwise.... But advocating for another route down to the Rockaways from Brooklyn, I'm still not seeing as necessary - regardless if it serves a subway line that the Q35 does not..... you can't ignore that... What next, a route from the Rockaways to the F train? The N perhaps.... Surely you're not gonna make a point of contention out of ONE Staten Islander you saw on the B4.... Yeah, people come from all over, that's not news to anyone.... As far as not everyone having cars, also obvious..... If you're gonna use that as a defense to sending a bus route somewhere, then you may as well have a bunch of unnecessary bus routes all over the place...... Everyone knows how sh*tty the is though and having that as the only subway out there has to be rough. My question is how is the service that they currently have used? I mean they've got express buses out there and judging how little service they get makes me believe that they don't use their transportation heavily outside of the local buses and the subway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 16, 2012 Share #503 Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) Everyone knows how sh*tty the is though and having that as the only subway out there has to be rough. My question is how is the service that they currently have used? I mean they've got express buses out there and judging how little service they get makes me believe that they don't use their transportation heavily outside of the local buses and the subway. Exactly my point.... If they don't wanna deal with the A (or the shuttle to the A, or the Q53 to the A), they have the Q35 to the IRT via Brooklyn.... Which is more than enough additional access to the subway in Brooklyn for someone coming from the Rockaways..... I will say that the Q35 can be improved (service-wise) though His Q51 to me, is equivalent to having a whole new route coming from SI & having that serve some station on the D (for example).... under the same logic he's using, SI-ers need better connections to Brooklyn too... on top of it, he's using that route to address the concerns of Sheepshead riders, as well.... As for your question, subway service west of the wye has been absolutely horrid for the longest now; well before they started rehabbing the stations along that portion of the line..... This is why you have ppl. in that area taking the bus (the Q53 to be exact) to the A at Rockaway blvd/Cross bay blvd..... The ones that don't do that, take the Q22 to arverne (B. 67th st subway) & catch the A from there, since A service w/i the Rockaways is dedicated to the portion of the line that is east of the wye (meaning, towards Far Rockaway)...... Those that don't deal w/ the local buses, the subway, and don't drive, use their QM16's well.... especially since that extension back in 2007 to B 147th st, which made all the more difference.... before that, QM16's stopped dead on B 116th - Which didn't directly serve the residents that actually reside west of B 116th....... Edited May 16, 2012 by B35 via Church 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted May 16, 2012 Share #504 Posted May 16, 2012 Exactly my point.... If they don't wanna deal with the A (or the shuttle to the A, or the Q53 to the A), they have the Q35 to the IRT via Brooklyn.... Which is more than enough additional access to the subway in Brooklyn for someone coming from the Rockaways..... It would be equivalent to having a whole new route coming from SI & having that serve some station on the D (for example).... under the same logic he's using, SI-ers need better connections to Brooklyn too.... Of course, no one out in SI is advocating for that, given that you have the S53's, 79's, and 93's of the world that take folks to the R...... As for your question, service west of the wye has been absolutely horrid for the longest now; well before they started rehabbing the stations along that portion of the line..... This is why you have ppl. in that area taking the bus (the Q53 to be exact) to the A at Rockaway blvd/Cross bay av..... The ones that don't do that, take the Q22 to arverne (B. 67th st subway) & catch the A from there, since A service w/i the Rockaways is dedicated to the portion of the line that is east of the wye (meaning, towards Far Rockaway)...... Those that don't deal w/ the local buses, the subway, and don't drive, use their QM16's well.... especially since that extension back in 2007 to B 147th st, which made all the more difference.... before that, QM16's stopped dead on B 116th - Which didn't directly serve the residents that actually reside west of B 116th....... I'm just puzzled because seeing how little express bus they have makes me think that folks don't go wild for using public transportation in general. I mean that's a pretty long commute to have such sh*tty express bus service and the LIRR only serves one part of the peninsula if that, so it's either the or the Q35 to the and or driving which many must do no? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threxx Posted May 16, 2012 Share #505 Posted May 16, 2012 Allan since this is basically the same as the 2012 Brooklyn Bus Propsals/upgrades, this thread is being merged. Not to oppose the decision, but all of the merging has me confused. I'm just puzzled because seeing how little express bus they have makes me think that folks don't go wild for using public transportation in general. I mean that's a pretty long commute to have such sh*tty express bus service and the LIRR only serves one part of the peninsula if that, so it's either the or the Q35 to the and or driving which many must do no? And that's what they do, so this Q51 is unnecessary. Everyone is dancing around the fact that all they need to do is to restore B4 service to Sheepshead Bay. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 16, 2012 Share #506 Posted May 16, 2012 I'm just puzzled because seeing how little express bus they have makes me think that folks don't go wild for using public transportation in general. I mean that's a pretty long commute to have such sh*tty express bus service and the LIRR only serves one part of the peninsula if that, so it's either the or the Q35 to the and or driving which many must do no? yep, those are the options.... and I can't believe that if a new route were to be introduced & be sent to sheepshead subway, that there would be as many patrons down there all of a sudden so willing to take public transportation (of the ones that already don't, I mean)..... Basically, his Q51 idea, at best/if successful, would take ppl. off Q35's.... An adverse effect which would affect the Q35 & a stalemate as far as public transportation (overall local bus usage) goes.... Because no way would current 35 usage be sustained, and a Q51 of sorts would flourish w/ newfound ridership on top of it..... Since, as you already alluded to (which is true in general), folks aren't exactly going "wild" (lol) for public transportation down there...... So for BrooklynBus (or anyone else) that wanna tell me not everyone has cars.... That doesn't mean everyone is just as quick to use a newfound bus route also..... Which is exactly the same ish' we were all preaching to QJT back when he was going magilla gorilla bananas w/ all the BS "rtes" he was infesting the forums with...... Anyway, I'm not gonna break down commuting time (in terms of minutes) of each of those options they have (BrooklynIRT is good at doing that stuff)... But in any event, I'm like, how many more people are we gonna try to force on the Brighton.... I'm sorry, but getting Sheepshead riders to the Brighton is more important than getting Rockaway riders to the Brighton..... Attempting to do both with one route makes things worse for Sheepshead patrons.... or, "Plumb beach"..... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted May 16, 2012 Share #507 Posted May 16, 2012 I'm just puzzled because seeing how little express bus they have makes me think that folks don't go wild for using public transportation in general. I mean that's a pretty long commute to have such sh*tty express bus service and the LIRR only serves one part of the peninsula if that, so it's either the or the Q35 to the and or driving which many must do no? Having little express service doesn't necessarily mean they don't use public transportation, though. The SE Queens local routes get good ridership, but the express buses generally don't, and so the express bus service isn't that frequent. And I remember a while ago, we were talking about the ridership stats for the buses, and B35 mentioned that the B1 was the only route in the top 10 (Brooklyn routes) that didn't have majority Black riders, and then we started talking about how the ridership of the bus routes might not necessarily be representative of the areas it passes through. Anyway, he mentioned the Q35 as an example of that and IIRC, he said it was mostly Black. Since all of it's stretch in the Rockaways is in White neighborhoods, it makes it seem as if the ridership is mainly Brooklyn riders going out to the Rockaways, or maybe Q22 riders going out to Brooklyn, but not really a lot of riders going out to the I mean, for the Q22 riders, if you're going to make 2 transfers and pay 2 fares to reach Manhattan, you might as well just take the LIRR (or the QM17 if it's rush hour), or just sit it out and take the train, because I doubt it's slower than making 2 transfers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threxx Posted May 16, 2012 Share #508 Posted May 16, 2012 The B33 would provide service on Knapp, and aid the B4 in Sheepshead Bay and in Borough Park, Bay Ridge, etc... B33: Midwood, Kings Hwy Station Bay Ridge, Shore Road Via Avenue X & Bay Ridge Avenue 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted May 16, 2012 Share #509 Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) Having little express service doesn't necessarily mean they don't use public transportation, though. The SE Queens local routes get good ridership, but the express buses generally don't, and so the express bus service isn't that frequent. And I remember a while ago, we were talking about the ridership stats for the buses, and B35 mentioned that the B1 was the only route in the top 10 (Brooklyn routes) that didn't have majority Black riders, and then we started talking about how the ridership of the bus routes might not necessarily be representative of the areas it passes through. Anyway, he mentioned the Q35 as an example of that and IIRC, he said it was mostly Black. Since all of it's stretch in the Rockaways is in White neighborhoods, it makes it seem as if the ridership is mainly Brooklyn riders going out to the Rockaways, or maybe Q22 riders going out to Brooklyn, but not really a lot of riders going out to the I mean, for the Q22 riders, if you're going to make 2 transfers and pay 2 fares to reach Manhattan, you might as well just take the LIRR (or the QM17 if it's rush hour), or just sit it out and take the train, because I doubt it's slower than making 2 transfers. What about the LIRR out there?? I mean if some of those areas are as affluent as I'm led to believe then they're either driving in or using LIRR or something because I can't see them using the local buses like that if they're so affluent with such a long PITA commute. I mean in Riverdale I see the local buses and they have blacks from parts of the Bronx coming up there for work or whatever, but our express buses and MetroNorth is extremely white, which is pretty representative of the neighborhood. The local buses have a decent amount of whites also which makes sense. At the Spuyten Duvyil station this morning it was all white this morning, including the Rail Link shuttle. Edited May 16, 2012 by Via Garibaldi 8 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted May 16, 2012 Share #510 Posted May 16, 2012 What about the LIRR out there?? I mean if some of those areas are as affluent as I'm led to believe then they're either driving in or using LIRR or something because I can't see them using the local buses like that if they're so affluent with such a long PITA commute. I mean in Riverdale I see the local buses and they have blacks from parts of the Bronx coming up there for work or whatever, but our express buses and MetroNorth is extremely white, which is pretty representative of the neighborhood. The local buses have a decent amount of whites also which makes sense. At the Spuyten Duvyil station this morning it was all white this morning, including the Rail Link shuttle. The LIRR is at the other end of the peninsula in Far Rockaway, and aside from that, Far Rockaway isn't the best area (and I don't know how much parking they have there either), and in addition, it's kind of a roundabout route as well, so I don't think a whole lot of them use the LIRR. Since (apparently. I'll wait for B35 to confirm this) the people from Belle Harbor/Neponsit aren't using the local bus-subway, and there are only a certain number using the express bus, the remainder (who actually work in Manhattan) must be driving. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 16, 2012 Share #511 Posted May 16, 2012 Having little express service doesn't necessarily mean they don't use public transportation, though. The SE Queens local routes get good ridership, but the express buses generally don't, and so the express bus service isn't that frequent. And I remember a while ago, we were talking about the ridership stats for the buses, and B35 mentioned that the B1 was the only route in the top 10 (Brooklyn routes) that didn't have majority Black riders, and then we started talking about how the ridership of the bus routes might not necessarily be representative of the areas it passes through. Anyway, he mentioned the Q35 as an example of that and IIRC, he said it was mostly Black. Since all of it's stretch in the Rockaways is in White neighborhoods, it makes it seem as if the ridership is mainly Brooklyn riders going out to the Rockaways, or maybe Q22 riders going out to Brooklyn, but not really a lot of riders going out to the I mean, for the Q22 riders, if you're going to make 2 transfers and pay 2 fares to reach Manhattan, you might as well just take the LIRR (or the QM17 if it's rush hour), or just sit it out and take the train, because I doubt it's slower than making 2 transfers. Not that it has any bearing in this particular discussion.... but since you brought it up (and also to clarify), yeah from what I depict, the Q35 has more black riders than white riders.... If it's rockaway bound 35's we're talking about, the black riders either disembark at 1 or 2 stops in Queens - the B149th st stop for the Q22, or at the terminal (B 116th) itself.... the white riders get off anywhere along newport (including B 116th).... Junction bound 35's w/i Queens, it's a mix of black & white riders embarking at the terminal, white folks embarking along newport, and a mix of black & white riders embarking at B 169th (the white ones are most likely those coming off 22's, or those coming off the blue goose)..... Yeah, it's not so much that it's a bunch of rockaway patrons heading out to the IRT necessarily (and just to be clear, I'm not trying to implicate that none of them are seeking the brighton b/c they are... I just don't think a separate route should exist for that purpose for those folk)... The Q35's you see in the mornings that are jammed packed arriving at the junction, are also riders that board at kings hwy.... meaning the Q35 has decent intra-Brooklyn usage as well.... What about the LIRR out there?? I mean if some of those areas are as affluent as I'm led to believe then they're either driving in or using LIRR or something because I can't see them using the local buses like that if they're so affluent with such a long PITA commute. I mean in Riverdale I see the local buses and they have blacks from parts of the Bronx coming up there for work or whatever, but our express buses and MetroNorth is extremely white, which is pretty representative of the neighborhood. The local buses have a decent amount of whites also which makes sense. At the Spuyten Duvyil station this morning it was all white this morning, including the Rail Link shuttle. Black or white (lol), LIRR far rockaway usage is abominable.... It's easily the least used station out of the entire line. Matter fact, it's almost as bad as LIRR usage on those stations east of Ronkonkoma on that line; hell, LIRR far rockaway sees 50 riders a day, I'd be shocked.... not exaggerating either.... People would rather take the Q113 full to jamaica center for the E or the J to manhattan, than take the LIRR to manhattan..... The people that live in far rockaway (even what would be considered the "good" parts of the neighborhood) barely use that station, nevermind anyone else west of far rockaway driving or otherwise making their way there..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted May 16, 2012 Share #512 Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) And of course, I'll bring in some stats into the discussion. Here's some information on the area we're talking about: http://www.city-data...ay-Park-NY.html (basically, the area of the Rockaways served by the Q35) It looks like about 10% of the workers (not residents, just to clarify. This is only for commuting purposes) there take the subway to work, and of course, the number increases a little bit as you get closer to the subway. It looks like less than 1% take a railroad to get to work (and I don't know how many of them thought that the was considered a "railroad"), so basically the number of LIRR commuters from that area is miniscule. About 5% walk to work (of course, we're only talking about people going to Manhattan, but I figured I'd just throw that out there) and another 5% work at home. For the buses, it looks like it's about 6 or 7%. What percentage take the local bus vs. express bus, it doesn't say. And of course, everybody else drives. These stats are a bit outdated (I have a feeling they haven't been updated since the 2000 census. Or maybe there was a more recent community survey, but in that case it would just be a sample), but it gives you an idea of their commute patterns. Not that it has any bearing in this particular discussion.... but since you brought it up (and also to clarify), yeah from what I depict, the Q35 has more black riders than white riders.... If it's rockaway bound 35's we're talking about, the black riders either disembark at 1 or 2 stops in Queens - the B149th st stop for the Q22, or at the terminal (B 116th) itself.... the white riders get off anywhere along newport (including B 116th).... Junction bound 35's w/i Queens, it's a mix of black & white riders embarking at the terminal, white folks embarking along newport, and a mix of black & white riders embarking at B 169th (the white ones are most likely those coming off 22's, or those coming off the blue goose)..... Yeah, it's not so much that it's a bunch of rockaway patrons heading out to the IRT necessarily (and just to be clear, I'm not trying to implicate that none of them are seeking the brighton b/c they are... I just don't think a separate route should exist for that purpose for those folk)... The Q35's you see in the mornings that are jammed packed arriving at the junction, are also riders that board at kings hwy.... meaning the Q35 has decent intra-Brooklyn usage as well.... I didn't see this post before I posted mine. Anyway, how is usage on the Q35 (or Q22 for that matter) going from Belle Harbor/Neponsit to the Rockaway Park station? Or I guess for the Q22, how is ridership going to the Beach 67th Street station from Belle Harbor/Neponsit? Edited May 16, 2012 by checkmatechamp13 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 17, 2012 Share #513 Posted May 17, 2012 I didn't see this post before I posted mine. Anyway, how is usage on the Q35 (or Q22 for that matter) going from Belle Harbor/Neponsit to the Rockaway Park station? Or I guess for the Q22, how is ridership going to the Beach 67th Street station from Belle Harbor/Neponsit? No problem. To answer/opinionate on your questions..... On the Q35, very very little... A typical Rockaway bound ride on the Q35 within Queens (to give a safe range), you'll see anywhere b/w 0-10 ppl embarking towards B 116th.... I'm not listing zero only b/c it's a statistical possibility either - I'm listing zero because it's common to ride a Q35 after having crossed the Gil Hodges, to have no one embarking on it before it reaches the terminal.... There are more ppl. that utilize the Q22 b/w B 169th & B. 116th, compared to the Q35 - nothing drastic though.... Anyway, unique Q22 usage towards B 67th... It's hard to tell/gauge because you have the folks that take Q35's that disembark at B 149th for the 22, and the ones that ride the 35 out to B 116th @ walk over for the Q22 @ the B 115th stop as well (a stop I can't stand btw... always full of drunks over there).... But in general, Q22 usage picks up east of B 116th st..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted May 17, 2012 Share #514 Posted May 17, 2012 I'm just gonna say this right now. I have a friend in Neponsit who doesn't have a car. If he comes to visit, it's lie 90 minute trip requiring 3 buses and 2 fares and at least 90 minutes of travel time, more if he wants to get home at a late hour. By car it is only a 20 minute trip. I usually drive him part of the way so he has only two buses to take. That's what people have to do to deal with these three bus trips and it is not right. We need to improve connections to make more trips accessible by two buses. If we did that you woud see bus ridership increase. When you truncate routes lie the B48 and the B64, or the B4 you see ridership go down. That''s why he system is failing. The purpose of a Q51 isn't just to bring people to the subway but to generally improve access. Maybe people from the Rockaways are driving because they don't want to change at the Junction. You don't know if there is demand or not until you ask. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY1635 Posted May 17, 2012 Share #515 Posted May 17, 2012 Did the MTA rehabilitate the Rockaway Beach Branch of the A Train? I used the take the shuttle to the Beach 90th Street Station when the Far Rockaway Branch was closed for renovations, and I remember how terrible the station looked. The station was absolutely disgusting and in poor shape. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future ENY OP Posted May 17, 2012 Share #516 Posted May 17, 2012 Did the MTA rehabilitate the Rockaway Beach Branch of the A Train? I used the take the shuttle to the Beach 90th Street Station when the Far Rockaway Branch was closed for renovations, and I remember how terrible the station looked. The station was absolutely disgusting and in poor shape. Rockaway Beach/Far Rock stations are still in horrible shape, but are getting better. There are still Weekend G/O's bwn Howard Beach and The Rockaways. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 17, 2012 Share #517 Posted May 17, 2012 I'm just gonna say this right now. I have a friend in Neponsit who doesn't have a car. If he comes to visit, it's lie 90 minute trip requiring 3 buses and 2 fares and at least 90 minutes of travel time, more if he wants to get home at a late hour. By car it is only a 20 minute trip. I usually drive him part of the way so he has only two buses to take. That's what people have to do to deal with these three bus trips and it is not right. We need to improve connections to make more trips accessible by two buses. If we did that you woud see bus ridership increase. When you truncate routes lie the B48 and the B64, or the B4 you see ridership go down. That''s why he system is failing. The purpose of a Q51 isn't just to bring people to the subway but to generally improve access. Maybe people from the Rockaways are driving because they don't want to change at the Junction. You don't know if there is demand or not until you ask. 1- Again, none of us are saying and/or believing that everyone has a car out there.... There's no need to bring up a scenario of someone you know without a car in the Rockaways, regardless of his commute.... 2- preaching to the choir.... 3- So basically what you're conveying is, for Rockaway riders, outside of access to the Brighton, you're sending Q51's down to Sheepshead arbitrarily.... because that's all generally improving access is/means... Anyone can say that to justify (in their minds) extending/sending any route anywhere.... I'm not even asking for stats; I could care less about that..... I just wanna know what your thought process was, as you were thinking up such a routing..... In other words, why you think a Sheepshead - Rockaways route is plausible.... Give me something other than a hope/prompt for demand type of response.... Surely someone of your knowledge & caliber have a more refined reason than that....... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted May 17, 2012 Share #518 Posted May 17, 2012 What I don't understand is why are so few folks using public transit out there? Do they find the service that pathetic, unreliable or that it takes too long?? If they're doing that poorly, I don't see how this proposed route would help... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted May 17, 2012 Share #519 Posted May 17, 2012 1- Again, none of us are saying and/or believing that everyone has a car out there.... There's no need to bring up a scenario of someone you know without a car in the Rockaways, regardless of his commute.... 2- preaching to the choir.... 3- So basically what you're conveying is, for Rockaway riders, outside of access to the Brighton, you're sending Q51's down to Sheepshead arbitrarily.... because that's all generally improving access is/means... Anyone can say that to justify (in their minds) extending/sending any route anywhere.... I'm not even asking for stats; I could care less about that..... I just wanna know what your thought process was, as you were thinking up such a routing..... In other words, why you think a Sheepshead - Rockaways route is plausible.... Give me something other than a hope/prompt for demand type of response.... Surely someone of your knowledge & caliber have a more refined reason than that....... I thought I explained my thinking in the three articles. One of the problems with the B4 and why it is lightly utilized is that people will walk further to use other routes that are less convenient or even take the subway to Downtown Brooklyn because the B4 is scheduled for only every 20 or 30 minutes and they know that at times it is not reliable and they could get stuck for an hour waiting. If you have to be somewhere by a specific time, you just aren't going to take a chance on the B4. Now you can't just go and increase the service hoping more people would ride the bus. Your solution of sending the bus to 86th Street instead of Bay Ridge Parkway may be one way of increasing demand. But I wonder if anything on 86th Street has something (a store or attraction) that is so attractive that riders can't get closer to home. The trip from Rockaway on the A train to Midtown is long and slow. I believe that there are people in Neponsit, Belle Harbor and Breezy Point who want to take the subway to Manhattan from Brooklyn because it would be quicker than the A train which they first have to travel east to go west. (Not very direct) They don't take the Q35 because they don't want to change at the Junction especially during off hours. I believe they would take a bus to the Brighton Line. Knapp Street and Emmons are very quick. It would only take about 5 minutes more than going to the Junction. If you ran the Q51 every 20 minutes, that in addition to the B4 running every 20 minutes would effectively make a combined headway of every 10 minutes if they could be scheduled that way. Even if not, more buses would lessen the likelihood of having to wait 45 minutes or an hour for a bus causing more people to not avoid the B4 when it is their most direct route. (Some people may walk further to the B36 just because they don't want to deal with the B4, not that the B36 is a bargain too. You could also get stuck for a half hour waiting for it, but it is less likely.) Also, it would make trips to the UA theater and Kings Plaza much easier. Someone might even take a bus from Rockaway to the UA theater if there were a bus. They certainly won't take three buses. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynIRT Posted May 17, 2012 Share #520 Posted May 17, 2012 http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qWhA3Yty4fM/TZkmEMlBgRI/AAAAAAAAKuM/aUCWhR8RGys/s1600/Epic_Facepalm_by_RJTH%2525255B1%2525255D%255B1%255D.jpg Please ignore the "you fail that much" part. I respect most of your ideas to improve service, but still and all... AGAIN with the Junction and its purported lack of safety? Gddamnit! Anything can happen anywhere! We are not talking about the freaking Broadway Junction or Zoo Lots Avenue! If people have such a problem with the Junction, please explain to me why ridership at the Brighton express stations south of Newkirk has been on the decline over the past few years while ridership at the Junction was at a five year high last year. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted May 17, 2012 Share #521 Posted May 17, 2012 What I don't understand is why are so few folks using public transit out there? Do they find the service that pathetic, unreliable or that it takes too long?? If they're doing that poorly, I don't see how this proposed route would help... You have to consider that some people simply won't use publc transportation. For some, it's a stimga issue, and for others, a trip might just not be feasable (if they work in say, an office park out on Long Island). I had a relative who worked the overnight shift at a job in Yonkers, and he drove from Brighton Beach. By transit, it would take over 2 hours and involve a long walk from the Wakefield subway station (and part of it was through a desolate area.) Basically, it was a no-brainer to drive. Now, there really wasn't anything the MTA could do. They already had the subway service, but it just didn't work out for him. What could they do? Run a bus from Brighton Beach to Yonkers at 11:00PM at night? I mean, those areas are relatively suburban, and as a result, car travel is the predominant mode of travel. Plus, the area being "affluent" definitely makes car travel more prevelant. Aside from that, in every single area, there are always going to be people commuting by car, no matter how well-served their area is by mass transit. Here's Harlem: http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Harlem-New-York-NY.html A bunch of subway lines, bus lines, even Metro-North, and yet about 12% of the workers there take a car to work. People taking cars doesn't necessarily mean that there's any fault of the transit agency. Some needs just can't be served. In some cases it's the need for access (there's no bus from Brighton Beach to Yonkers), or the need for later service to run on some lines where there's really no ridership, or just the need for comfort and independence. http://4.bp.blogspot...%255B1%255D.jpg Please ignore the "you fail that much" part. I respect most of your ideas to improve service, but still and all... AGAIN with the Junction and its purported lack of safety? Gddamnit! Anything can happen anywhere! We are not talking about the freaking Broadway Junction or Zoo Lots Avenue! If people have such a problem with the Junction, please explain to me why ridership at the Brighton express stations south of Newkirk has been on the decline over the past few years while ridership at the Junction was at a five year high last year. He's saying that other people may have a problem with it. Not that he himself has a problem with The Junction. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 17, 2012 Share #522 Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) What I don't understand is why are so few folks using public transit out there? Do they find the service that pathetic, unreliable or that it takes too long?? If they're doing that poorly, I don't see how this proposed route would help... I think it's a combination of service levels within the Rockaways being pathetic & long commuting times.... don't necessarily get the sense that they feel service is unreliable, per se..... Outside of simply giving them access to a subway line they don't already have direct access to, I don't see how it would help those folks too much either... I mean to take a route up flatbush av, turn onto av U, turn down knapp (which is a backtrack by the way), clear across emmons towards the Brighton.... That won't take any less time than the Q35 shooting up flatbush to the IRT..... Is the Brighton faster than the 2/5 train to Manhattan, yes.... Is it fast enough that there'd be a noticable time savings in their overall commute if those riders had a one-seat ride to the Brighton? I personally do not think so.... If they need the B/Q, they can get it at Atlantic, towards Manhattan.... For all that his Q51 does (regardless of how empty/fast Knapp st is), Rockaway riders may as well take the express bus (the QM16) w/o having to ride into Brooklyn (if they're willing to spend couple more dollars/day), or continue making their way to the Brighton by whatever bus-to-bus method they're currently doing (B3, B9, B82)..... No need for another route down there from Brooklyn..... edit: split post Edited May 17, 2012 by B35 via Church 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 17, 2012 Share #523 Posted May 17, 2012 I thought I explained my thinking in the three articles. One of the problems with the B4 and why it is lightly utilized is that people will walk further to use other routes that are less convenient or even take the subway to Downtown Brooklyn because the B4 is scheduled for only every 20 or 30 minutes and they know that at times it is not reliable and they could get stuck for an hour waiting. If you have to be somewhere by a specific time, you just aren't going to take a chance on the B4. Now you can't just go and increase the service hoping more people would ride the bus. Your solution of sending the bus to 86th Street instead of Bay Ridge Parkway may be one way of increasing demand. But I wonder if anything on 86th Street has something (a store or attraction) that is so attractive that riders can't get closer to home. The trip from Rockaway on the A train to Midtown is long and slow. I believe that there are people in Neponsit, Belle Harbor and Breezy Point who want to take the subway to Manhattan from Brooklyn because it would be quicker than the A train which they first have to travel east to go west. (Not very direct) They don't take the Q35 because they don't want to change at the Junction especially during off hours. I believe they would take a bus to the Brighton Line. Knapp Street and Emmons are very quick. It would only take about 5 minutes more than going to the Junction. If you ran the Q51 every 20 minutes, that in addition to the B4 running every 20 minutes would effectively make a combined headway of every 10 minutes if they could be scheduled that way. Even if not, more buses would lessen the likelihood of having to wait 45 minutes or an hour for a bus causing more people to not avoid the B4 when it is their most direct route. (Some people may walk further to the B36 just because they don't want to deal with the B4, not that the B36 is a bargain too. You could also get stuck for a half hour waiting for it, but it is less likely.) Also, it would make trips to the UA theater and Kings Plaza much easier. Someone might even take a bus from Rockaway to the UA theater if there were a bus. They certainly won't take three buses. lol..... Tell me something.... Within a specific area, what's the difference between increasing service on a route that was previously unreliable (the B4 in this case) & creating some new route serving that same area (your Q51)? You're basically implicating introducing a new route is better than improving an existing route.... Already established ridership within Brooklyn vs questionable usage towards the Rockaways for Sheepshead patrons? uhh, yeah, I'm going for improving the route whose ridership is already established, I'm sorry.... But regardless of that, I get the Sheepshead part of your Q51... and I'm obliged that you like that B4 idea to 86th, but that's not what I was inquring about... wasn't even on the wavelength in my last couple replies..... Thought I was specific by bolding the part I wanted to emphasize in that last reply, but guess I should have been more blunt with the concern/question.... Vv concern/inquiry below vV Aside from giving Rockaway riders direct access to the Brighton, I don't get why you're sending this to the Rockaways.... Telling me "...to generally improve access" & stating "you don't know if there is demand or not until you ask" really came off as lame excuses.... It's more like, you didn't know where else to send that Q51 after you addressed the issues plaguing Sheepshead patrons as far as bus service goes..... I mean, you say you believe Rockaway folks would take a bus to the Brighton Line.... Yeah, I don't disbelieve that they would..... The question is, would it be enough people from the Rockaways to justify sending buses down there? My answer to that is a resounding No..... There is little-to-no reason to believe that there is a legitimate demand for a Sheepshead-Rockaway route... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynIRT Posted May 17, 2012 Share #524 Posted May 17, 2012 He's saying that other people may have a problem with it. Not that he himself has a problem with The Junction. Meh. As I stated before if some people have a problem with the Junction and choose to avoid at all costs, to the point where they would actually shy away from a road taking them directly to the Junction (and follow one hell of a circuitous route to not transfer to a subway there), that is their personal/political problem and nobody else's, not even MTA's. It is not MTA's job by any stretch of the imagination to account for people's personal/political problems with certain areas by taking measures such as this. This is too much. As far as improving access goes, I can see that because getting from SB to the Rockaways is not easy. But avoiding the Junction to transfer to a subway should not have been a reason for the Q51. If that is such a great reason then this is just burning extra diesel on account of some people's ass-backwards notion that the Junction is [still] dangerous. This is not MTA's problem; neither would it make economic sense for a private operator to send his/her buses all the way to the other side of Brooklyn on account of this when it is much simpler to just keep the buses on a direct path to a train station that is just as good as any other and is not located in the middle of Fort Apache. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threxx Posted May 17, 2012 Share #525 Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) We've sufficiently established 3 things: 2 routes from Brooklyn-Rockaways aren't necessary. A route from Sheepshead Bay to the Rockaways is circuitous and unnecessary. If you don't like the Junction, that's your problem. What we need in SB/Plumb Beach is full restoration of B4 service. That's all. End of story, nuff said, whatever. As I said before, we are dancing around some of the issues. Edited May 17, 2012 by ThrexxBus 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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