Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Lil 57]

6 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

All things considered, generally speaking, I wouldn't mind a service of the sort.... Only thing is, I'd stop something like that right at 1st av ..... Anyone needing service along 14th itself would have to xfer.... Don't want to inject an overabundance of buses along 14th.

 

Well saying that 14th Street is going to be closed off to cars, traffic shouldn't be an issue. At least I'll end it at Union Square so people can make subway connections along 14th Street. (However 8th Avenue is a better place to end it because there's more subway connections.)

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Anyway, when I speak of some long, drawn out bus route, I'm referring to Jeremiah's "B59 LTD" (which is an extension of your "B50" proposal)  not your "B50" proposal by itself..... I don't have a problem w/ that proposal of yours, as far as distance is concerned...

As far as the (original) proposal goes ... I do not agree with:

1. filling that service gap on Empire Blvd, east of Kingston/Brooklyn
2. filling that service gap on Ocean av, north of Foster
3. any bus route terminating at Empire Blvd/Utica av on any full-time basis
4. an "Ocean av" route serving Empire Blvd (and vice versa)...
5. a route running between KCC & Empire Blvd/Utica av (see bullet point #3), and....
6. quite honestly, LTD service of any sort along Ocean av

I did not read his B59 LTD, so I am not familiar with it. 

I respect your knowledge of Brooklyn needs and passenger habits, but I do not agree with your 1 through 6 assessment for the following reason, because this is personal with me since I speak from my own experiences and the needs of East Flatbush residents have not changed that much in the past 50 years.

The routes were deficient then, and they are deficient now. As I stated, I grew up just a few short blocks from a Empire Blvd and Utica Avenue and past by that intersection virtually every day for my first 25 years. We never had access to an automobile until I was 21. My parents only used cabs in case of an emergency, so I was solely dependent on buses and subways, mostly buses until I attended college.

You don't believe there is a service gap on Empire Blvd. I can't tell you the number of times we walked all the way to Prospect Park and back or to the 71st Pct on New York and Empire because of that service gap. Yes, we could have taken  the B47 (now the B43) for half the distance, but we didn't want to pay full fare for only half the trip. The only other choice was the slow and meandering B12 and change for the B41 or B44 for an extra fare for a slow indirect trip. 

As far as a bus on Ocean Avenue north of Foster, I really wouldn't call it a service gap, but a necessary direct route on a street lined with six story apartment houses. Considering the transit dependency of the area, the density is certainly there for a route that would make transferring much more direct. 

[JeremiahC99]

19 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

Makes sense since we want to transport people from 14th Street to Williamsburg as fast as possible. I'll revise it.

EDIT: Google Maps won't let me do a direct turn onto Delancey St but the DOT could revise the rules to let buses make that left turn. 

In when using Google MyMaps, I draw the routes manually using the "Draw a Line" feature. USing this, I recreated your proposed line the is shown in the link below: 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cBq1kQTJ3lVCA4jqUPI8N67PFRYdsV9O&usp=sharing

[Lil 57]

7 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

In when using Google MyMaps, I draw the routes manually using the "Draw a Line" feature. USing this, I recreated your proposed line the is shown in the link below: 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cBq1kQTJ3lVCA4jqUPI8N67PFRYdsV9O&usp=sharing

I'll use that feature for now on. IMO, the best place to terminate the B39 would be Union Square since people can have a direct transfer to the subway but 1st Ave is fine since the subway isn't as far of a walk from there.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Lil 57

[JeremiahC99]

3 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

I'll use that feature for now on. IMO, the best place to terminate the B39 would be Union Square since people can have a direct transfer to the subway but 1st Ave is fine since the subway isn't as far of a walk from there.

I support the extension to USQ, but I only removed that part for the demonstration of the 'Draw a Line' proposal. The routing to USQ would the exact same one you had before.

[Lil 57]

14 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I support the extension to USQ, but I only removed that part for the demonstration of the 'Draw a Line' proposal. The routing to USQ would the exact same one you had before.

After talking about this B39 extension, I don't know why the  has a route that just goes across a bridge and back. Especially since the B39 has the lowest ridership in the entire system. The B39 should have been extended a long time ago, which would have increased ridership on the B39. 

[Lex]

29 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

As far as a bus on Ocean Avenue north of Foster, I really wouldn't call it a service gap, but a necessary direct route on a street lined with six story apartment houses. Considering the transit dependency of the area, the density is certainly there for a route that would make transferring much more direct. 

That portion of Ocean Avenue is flanked by the BMT Brighton Line to the west (south of Prospect Park) and Flatbush Avenue to the east (up until it turns into it, where it becomes Empire Boulevard). In addition, the only portion without any bus service is between Cortelyou Road and Caton Avenue. These things in mind, there is literally no reason for having a direct bus service down Ocean Avenue north of Foster Avenue.

[BrooklynBus]

3 minutes ago, Lex said:

That portion of Ocean Avenue is flanked by the BMT Brighton Line to the west (south of Prospect Park) and Flatbush Avenue to the east (up until it turns into it, where it becomes Empire Boulevard). In addition, the only portion without any bus service is between Cortelyou Road and Caton Avenue. These things in mind, there is literally no reason for having a direct bus service down Ocean Avenue north of Foster Avenue.

You are speaking as if everyone would be getting on the bus north of Foster and would be getting off by the time they reach Prospect Park. That's not how things work. The Brighton line and the Flatbush Avenue routes are irrelevent to the duscussion. Those on the Brighton line fir the most part are making much longer trips with about half probably going to Manhattan. Those on the B41 are headed either northwest or southeast. Few are traveling just on the north south portion without transferring. Those would be the only ones that a through Ocean Avenue bus would be competing with. Also, if the bus turned East on Empire Blvd, that is another entire population that would not be on the Brighton subway or the B41. 

Anyone traveling north south on Ocean with a westbound origin or destination would not have to make a 20 minute diversion back and forth to Nostrand or Rogers Avenue and would have a much more direct trip. All this without extra route miles or cost. And don't forget we now have the B44  SBS as well as the B49 both on Rogers which doesn't make sense at all. You are not complaining about those two routes in the same street, but you are complaining about the B49 and B41 proposed to operate one block away for a much shorter distance than the B49 and B44 SBS are on the same street northbound.

[Lex]

22 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

You are speaking as if everyone would be getting on the bus north of Foster and would be getting off by the time they reach Prospect Park. That's not how things work. The Brighton line and the Flatbush Avenue routes are irrelevent to the duscussion. Those on the Brighton line fir the most part are making much longer trips with about half probably going to Manhattan. Those on the B41 are headed either northwest or southeast. Few are traveling just on the north south portion without transferring. Those would be the only ones that a through Ocean Avenue bus would be competing with. Also, if the bus turned East on Empire Blvd, that is another entire population that would not be on the Brighton subway or the B41. 

Anyone traveling north south on Ocean with a westbound origin or destination would not have to make a 20 minute diversion back and forth to Nostrand or Rogers Avenue and would have a much more direct trip. All this without extra route miles or cost. And don't forget we now have the B44  SBS as well as the B49 both on Rogers which doesn't make sense at all. You are not complaining about those two routes in the same street, but you are complaining about the B49 and B41 proposed to operate one block away for a much shorter distance than the B49 and B44 SBS are on the same street northbound.

2 hours ago, Lex said:

Okay, I'm done.🤦‍♀️

 

[Bay Ridge Express]

9 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

This can be considered both a Brooklyn and Queens bus proposal but since this is regarding the  train work being done, I'll post it here.

New Route: QM14, this route would be an express route from Elmhurst to Midtown Manhattan via Grand Ave/Grand Street and the Williamsburg Bridge to give direct service to Manhattan and to ease the potential overcrowding of the  train.

Map: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QRQOuBDe6HI4NTkqowWS02R_v5Cicr50&usp=sharing

Span: From 5 AM - 1 AM Monday-Saturday, 6 AM - 12 AM Sunday.

Headways:

AM Rush: 12-15 minutes

Noon: 20-30 minutes

PM rush: 12-15 minutes

Evening: 15 minutes*

Weekends: Every 15 minutes until around 9 PM, then every 30 minutes.*

* During Weekday Evenings and Weekends until 9 PM, Alternative buses Start/End at Grand Ave/Borden Ave in Queens.

 

 

I just don't understand how you're attempting to ease  overcrowding by only connecting with Grand (and I guess partially Lorimer and Graham). In that case, wouldn't a route that is closer to the  market (via Bushwick, Wilson, Seneca, Wyckoff, etc.) make more sense? (to at least the point that it can connect with the  ). 

Edited April 27, 2019 by Bay Ridge Express

[Bay Ridge Express]

2 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

After talking about this B39 extension, I don't know why the  has a route that just goes across a bridge and back. Especially since the B39 has the lowest ridership in the entire system. The B39 should have been extended a long time ago, which would have increased ridership on the B39. 

ADA accessibility across the bridge, mostly. What you proposed is very similar to the L1/L2, etc. routes that the  had before Cuomo swooped in. Unfortunately, it was cancelled for the aforesaid reason, but it would definitely help in transporting commuters across the bridge, not just during the shutdown.

[Lil 57]

31 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

I just don't understand how you're attempting to ease  overcrowding by only connecting with Grand (and I guess partially Lorimer and Graham). In that case, wouldn't a route that is closer to the  market (via Bushwick, Wilson, Seneca, Wyckoff, etc.) make more sense? (to at least the point that it can connect with the  ). 

That was my express route that I scratched. Then I extended the B39 bus to connect from Williamsburg to 14th Street. (I decided that the B39 would end at the 8th Ave  station to provide connections with the subways along 14th Street.)

Map: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GwPfT-y8Ck-9_nlSUtb-yZIcZPEK-VkX&usp=sharing

Edited April 27, 2019 by Lil 57

[JeremiahC99]

1 hour ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

ADA accessibility across the bridge, mostly. What you proposed is very similar to the L1/L2, etc. routes that the  had before Cuomo swooped in. Unfortunately, it was cancelled for the aforesaid reason, but it would definitely help in transporting commuters across the bridge, not just during the shutdown.

I actually planned to incorporate those  bus routings into the B39 routing as well. My version would have the route run from Williamsburg Plaza. However, in doing so for the post shutdown world, I landed into trouble figuring out which routing in Manhattan I should incorporate. While the routing to SoHo (L2, L3) would provide a crosstown route along Delancey St, it could possibly duplicate  train service. The 1st/2nd Avenue option (L1, L4) could also be a great idea, since it serves an area not served by subway service, but I feel that it may duplicate M15 service. Which one would be better?

[Around the Horn]

While we're sharing B39 proposals, here's mine from a while back...

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Aqtx-ZSi_XfgU1eMRcBA4LkUemg&usp=sharing

Spring and Broome Streets would have curbside bus/bike lanes like some streets in Paris.

[Bay Ridge Express]

1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I actually planned to incorporate those  bus routings into the B39 routing as well. My version would have the route run from Williamsburg Plaza. However, in doing so for the post shutdown world, I landed into trouble figuring out which routing in Manhattan I should incorporate. While the routing to SoHo (L2, L3) would provide a crosstown route along Delancey St, it could possibly duplicate  train service. The 1st/2nd Avenue option (L1, L4) could also be a great idea, since it serves an area not served by subway service, but I feel that it may duplicate M15 service. Which one would be better?

In a post shutdown world, I really don't know. Not too familiar with that area or ever really commuted by bus there. 

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I did not read his B59 LTD, so I am not familiar with it. 

I respect your knowledge of Brooklyn needs and passenger habits, but I do not agree with your 1 through 6 assessment for the following reason, because this is personal with me since I speak from my own experiences and the needs of East Flatbush residents have not changed that much in the past 50 years.

The routes were deficient then, and they are deficient now. As I stated, I grew up just a few short blocks from a Empire Blvd and Utica Avenue and past by that intersection virtually every day for my first 25 years. We never had access to an automobile until I was 21. My parents only used cabs in case of an emergency, so I was solely dependent on buses and subways, mostly buses until I attended college.

You don't believe there is a service gap on Empire Blvd. I can't tell you the number of times we walked all the way to Prospect Park and back or to the 71st Pct on New York and Empire because of that service gap. Yes, we could have taken  the B47 (now the B43) for half the distance, but we didn't want to pay full fare for only half the trip. The only other choice was the slow and meandering B12 and change for the B41 or B44 for an extra fare for a slow indirect trip. 

As far as a bus on Ocean Avenue north of Foster, I really wouldn't call it a service gap, but a necessary direct route on a street lined with six story apartment houses. Considering the transit dependency of the area, the density is certainly there for a route that would make transferring much more direct. 

I never said I don't believe there's a service gap, I said I don't believe that gap needs to be filled.... Today's B43 suffices along/covers enough of Empire the way I see it; most folks in this neighborhood trying to get to Utica av from the Brighton line (and yes, I'm bringing up the Brighton line, because that would be the main draw of even having a route run clear along Empire) will continue to do so by way of the B35 (or a dollar cab, but that's neither here nor there) & the plethora of service that's given to it.... I don't see too many people around here all of a sudden giving that up for a route that would run along Empire from end to end, and especially with that route coming from as far south as in your neck of the woods....

With that being said, although you share your experience/hardship, best case scenario, you make a case for service along Empire..... It still doesn't explain, or warrant, having an Ocean av service swing over to Utica/Empire.... For the life of me, I don't see much of anyone in the bevy of those 4/5/6 story bldg's along Ocean really riding past Parkside....

Now I don't know what you have in store as far as your updated route alterations are concerned, but the fact that you (in your old plan) would neuter the B43 to terminating at KCH & have the B12 backdoor its way to KCH, to have a route running on Empire & Ocean av, I vehemently disagree with.... I'm not too sure if you realize just how many people in this neighborhood ride the B12 all the way to/from Alabama for or from off the .... I can break down the ridership habits of that route so easily, it's not even funny.... That route needs to be left alone... And as for the B43, ridership would freakin TANK if you cut that route short at the hospital - I guarantee that.... So much so that I'm willing to say that you may as well cut the B43 back as far north as Fulton, which is like what, 1/3rd of the route or whatever.... Just to connect Ocean av to Empire Blvd? Nah man.....

5 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

Well saying that 14th Street is going to be closed off to cars, traffic shouldn't be an issue. At least I'll end it at Union Square so people can make subway connections along 14th Street. (However 8th Avenue is a better place to end it because there's more subway connections.)

Ideally speaking, Union Sq. would be as far west as I'd go w/ a route like that, even with private vehicles barred from running on 14th... Running anything in Manhattan, you have to be that much more wary of runtime & it going awry pretty quickly (look at how running to Manhattan & serving it for like what, a block or two, affects the entire Q60).....

Outside of this impending mess with the , I'd leave the B39 right where it currently ends.

[BrooklynBus]

7 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I never said I don't believe there's a service gap, I said I don't believe that gap needs to be filled.... Today's B43 suffices along/covers enough of Empire the way I see it; most folks in this neighborhood trying to get to Utica av from the Brighton line (and yes, I'm bringing up the Brighton line, because that would be the main draw of even having a route run clear along Empire) will continue to do so by way of the B35 (or a dollar cab, but that's neither here nor there) & the plethora of service that's given to it.... I don't see too many people around here all of a sudden giving that up for a route that would run along Empire from end to end, and especially with that route coming from as far south as in your neck of the woods....

With that being said, although you share your experience/hardship, best case scenario, you make a case for service along Empire..... It still doesn't explain, or warrant, having an Ocean av service swing over to Utica/Empire.... For the life of me, I don't see much of anyone in the bevy of those 4/5/6 story bldg's along Ocean really riding past Parkside....

Now I don't know what you have in store as far as your updated route alterations are concerned, but the fact that you (in your old plan) would neuter the B43 to terminating at KCH & have the B12 backdoor its way to KCH, to have a route running on Empire & Ocean av, I vehemently disagree with.... I'm not too sure if you realize just how many people in this neighborhood ride the B12 all the way to/from Alabama for or from off the .... I can break down the ridership habits of that route so easily, it's not even funny.... That route needs to be left alone... And as for the B43, ridership would freakin TANK if you cut that route short at the hospital - I guarantee that.... So much so that I'm willing to say that you may as well cut the B43 back as far north as Fulton, which is like what, 1/3rd of the route or whatever.... Just to connect Ocean av to Empire Blvd? Nah man.....

 

Most routes are a half mile apart so you only have to walk a quarter mile to a bus route and maybe another block to the stop. That’s the way it should be. Look at the routes in Bed Stuy which seem to work fine. So did it ever occur to you why the B35 is such a well-patronized route? It’s because it has little competition. In Sunset Park you have the B11 a half mile away. But in Central Brooklyn the B8 is 3/4 mile to the south and the B12 parallels the B35 only from Ocean Av to Albany, a very short potion. Then it diverges and keeps getting further from it. There is no other parallel route until the B45 on St Johns. That’s why everyone gravitates to the B35, meaning many have to walk far or take another bus to get to it. My proposals give riders better alternatives to the B35 by placing a parallel route on Clarkson. 

Now look at the B43 a route that was started to take riders from Williamsburg to Ebbetts Field. Needs change over the years. That’s why it was extended north to Greenpoint a number of years back a change I recommended in my 1973 masters thesis, 20 years before the MTA saw the need for that change. Seventy years ago, Kings County Hospital wasn’t the institution it is today and Downstate  Medical Center and the Wingate High school complex did not exist.  It draws people from all over the borough. It needs more direct service.  Although Ebbetts Field was replaced with housing, they already have direct routes to Williamsburg and don’t need an indirect one. The B43 would be much more useful serving Kings County and Downstate. Why do you think there are so many dollar vans outside Kings County? They fill in when bus service is inadequate. 

I changed my B12 proposal, but you still won’t like it. The B12 has always been one of the slowest routes in the borough, but you wouldn’t care about. 

 

[B35 via Church]

20 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Most routes are a half mile apart so you only have to walk a quarter mile to a bus route and maybe another block to the stop. That’s the way it should be. Look at the routes in Bed Stuy which seem to work fine. So did it ever occur to you why the B35 is such a well-patronized route? It’s because it has little competition. In Sunset Park you have the B11 a half mile away. But in Central Brooklyn the B8 is 3/4 mile to the south and the B12 parallels the B35 only from Ocean Av to Albany, a very short potion. Then it diverges and keeps getting further from it. There is no other parallel route until the B45 on St Johns. That’s why everyone gravitates to the B35, meaning many have to walk far or take another bus to get to it. My proposals give riders better alternatives to the B35 by placing a parallel route on Clarkson. 

Now look at the B43 a route that was started to take riders from Williamsburg to Ebbetts Field. Needs change over the years. That’s why it was extended north to Greenpoint a number of years back a change I recommended in my 1973 masters thesis, 20 years before the MTA saw the need for that change. Seventy years ago, Kings County Hospital wasn’t the institution it is today and Downstate  Medical Center and the Wingate High school complex did not exist.  It draws people from all over the borough. It needs more direct service.  Although Ebbetts Field was replaced with housing, they already have direct routes to Williamsburg and don’t need an indirect one. The B43 would be much more useful serving Kings County and Downstate. Why do you think there are so many dollar vans outside Kings County? They fill in when bus service is inadequate. 

I changed my B12 proposal, but you still won’t like it. The B12 has always been one of the slowest routes in the borough, but you wouldn’t care about. 

 

The routes in Bed Stuy run on a grid that runs to one of the city's CBD's.... Really now.

Church av. has far more going for it than Clarkson or Empire does, for a far longer stretch at that..... It's disingenuous to come on here just omit that piece of information like it's insignificant or something & then state that the next parallel route doesn't exist up until you reach St. Johns, on top of it..... A route on Clarkson would give people another alternative, sure, but you're not going to take that many people from up off the B35, because again, people actually shop along Church av & as I said earlier, more service is provided along said corridor.....

Thanks for the history lesson, but it doesn't portray that the B43 would be more, or just as well used at the current B43 along Empire, on over to Prospect Park subway..... And there are no dollar vans around Kings County; chill with the old talking points.... Taxi's, yes, but taxi's tend to frequent hospitals in general in this city (some hospitals more than others) anyway; easier way to catch a potential fare....

You continue to make like the B12 is one of the slowest routes in the world... The problem with the B12 isn't its sluggishness, just for the sake of being so.... it's that it's often delayed because the route sees heavy usage from it's various riderbases from end to end.... I'm not sure what it is you're not getting about that, or if it's that you aren't privy as to how the route's used.... The only real chokepoints on the routes are along Clarkson in the vicinity of KCH, and everything from Alabama to Rockaway av (the underpass to get to the other side of the LIRR trackage & the junction binding ENY av/Pacfic/Junius is often a hotbed for traffic jams.... I have enough rants about the B12 on here & the route being oh so slow isn't one of my complaints....

...and pipe down with the passive aggressive, misdirected, fallacious shots about not caring about slow routes & get up to speed with how routes are utilized in the present era.

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

The routes in Bed Stuy run on a grid that runs to one of the city's CBD's.... Really now.

Church av. has far more going for it than Clarkson or Empire does, for a far longer stretch at that..... It's disingenuous to come on here just omit that piece of information like it's insignificant or something & then state that the next parallel route doesn't exist up until you reach St. Johns, on top of it..... A route on Clarkson would give people another alternative, sure, but you're not going to take that many people from up off the B35, because again, people actually shop along Church av & as I said earlier, more service is provided along said corridor.....

Thanks for the history lesson, but it doesn't portray that the B43 would be more, or just as well used at the current B43 along Empire, on over to Prospect Park subway..... And there are no dollar vans around Kings County; chill with the old talking points.... Taxi's, yes, but taxi's tend to frequent hospitals in general in this city (some hospitals more than others) anyway; easier way to catch a potential fare....

You continue to make like the B12 is one of the slowest routes in the world... The problem with the B12 isn't its sluggishness, just for the sake of being so.... it's that it's often delayed because the route sees heavy usage from it's various riderbases from end to end.... I'm not sure what it is you're not getting about that, or if it's that you aren't privy as to how the route's used.... The only real chokepoints on the routes are along Clarkson in the vicinity of KCH, and everything from Alabama to Rockaway av (the underpass to get to the other side of the LIRR trackage & the junction binding ENY av/Pacfic/Junius is often a hotbed for traffic jams.... I have enough rants about the B12 on here & the route being oh so slow isn't one of my complaints....

...and pipe down with the passive aggressive, misdirected, fallacious shots about not caring about slow routes & get up to speed with how routes are utilized in the present era.

Yes the routes in Bed Stuy run in a grid but so do many of the other routes. And yes they do go to the CBD. Indirect routes while sometimes necessary may require you making an indirect trip if you need to transfer. That is the case with the B12. Why should someone at Utica and Empire wanting to take the B44 north have to first travel south to Clarkson Ave to do so? That’s why people take cabs. And speaking of cabs, I shouldn’t have used the term dollar vans, but They aren’t cabs either. They are illegal car services that are all lined up outside. And as far as cabs and car services frequenting hospitals, yes they do, but they come because of a phone call. You don’t see a line of car services just waiting outside Maimonides or Coney Island Hospital, which leads me to conclude there are more of them at Kings County than at other hospitals because there is no bus service directly south of the hospital and indirect bus trips that require multiple transfers for many. And the reason the B12 is slow is primarily due to its numerous turns which causes the bus to constantly miss the green light. It is much slower than the B35 is even before the limited.

You are also talking as if I want all the Church Avenue users to switch to Clarkson. Sure those using the route for shopping will continue to patronize it, but it’s not only shoppers who use the route. 

[Lil 57]

18 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Outside of this impending mess with the , I'd leave the B39 right where it currently ends.

The B39 right now has low ridership because there's only one market for that route. ADA people and people that don't want to use the Subway, which isn't a lot. The B39 is on the cusp of being eliminated for good if another budget crisis happens. Something like @Around the Horn idea would be practical for the B39 if this  work wasn't happening right now.

[B35 via Church]

21 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Yes the routes in Bed Stuy run in a grid but so do many of the other routes. And yes they do go to the CBD. Indirect routes while sometimes necessary may require you making an indirect trip if you need to transfer. That is the case with the B12. Why should someone at Utica and Empire wanting to take the B44 north have to first travel south to Clarkson Ave to do so? That’s why people take cabs. And speaking of cabs, I shouldn’t have used the term dollar vans, but They aren’t cabs either. They are illegal car services that are all lined up outside. And as far as cabs and car services frequenting hospitals, yes they do, but they come because of a phone call. You don’t see a line of car services just waiting outside Maimonides or Coney Island Hospital, which leads me to conclude there are more of them at Kings County than at other hospitals because there is no bus service directly south of the hospital and indirect bus trips that require multiple transfers for many. And the reason the B12 is slow is primarily due to its numerous turns which causes the bus to constantly miss the green light. It is much slower than the B35 is even before the limited.

You are also talking as if I want all the Church Avenue users to switch to Clarkson. Sure those using the route for shopping will continue to patronize it, but it’s not only shoppers who use the route. 

You're kind of all over the place here....

You want to make a point regarding inconvenience? Alright.... So why should anybody at that same intersection [Utica/Empire] needing KCH have to take a bus (your proposed B12) all the way to Nostrand/Empire, running down Nostrand, swinging back across Clarkson, stymieing at New York av - to then have to WALK from NY av to the hospital entrances? Either that, or take TWO buses (your proposed B50 to your proposed B43)?

Your overall point about the cabs (and/or those acting as cabs) that stake out at KCH (as it relates to the B12) is rather irrelevant; correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation..... For cab drivers, places like hospitals, malls, rail stations, and airports increase the chance of anyone trying to catch a fare... This personal vendetta you have with the (real) B12 comes off as petty & quite silly.... When it comes to creating (or fixing) a bus network, I'm less interested about wanting to complete a grid (Especially if it means doing what your proposed B43 would     for pete's sake).....

Obviously it isn't only shoppers using the B35, nobody's saying that... And I'm not talking as if you want all the Church av. riders to switch to Clarkson.... This jumping to the extremes to make your points is getting out of hand.... Yes, okay, alright, you want to give better alternatives - but these alternatives would have to rival (in this particular case) what the B35 offers in terms of service levels, and I don't see a "via Clarkson" or "via Empire" route doing that for people in this neighborhood....

AFAIC, you're putting too much stock in completing a grid.

13 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

The B39 right now has low ridership because there's only one market for that route. ADA people and people that don't want to use the Subway, which isn't a lot. The B39 is on the cusp of being eliminated for good if another budget crisis happens. Something like @Around the Horn idea would be practical for the B39 if this  work wasn't happening right now.

Given ideal circumstances, perhaps.... I mean, we could use more useful interborough routes.....

Given the reality of current circumstances, it would be lost in a vacuum....

[LGA Link N Train]

18 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

The B39 right now has low ridership because there's only one market for that route. ADA people and people that don't want to use the Subway, which isn't a lot. The B39 is on the cusp of being eliminated for good if another budget crisis happens. Something like @Around the Horn idea would be practical for the B39 if this  work wasn't happening right now.

The B39 as a bus route has more potential. I personally agree with all route extensions proposed here, but since we’re dealing with the  train “fiasco” right now, it’d be wise to extended it to Grand Street High School Or Montrose Avenue on its Brooklyn End To help deter crowds from Loimer and Bedford. And on its Manhattan end, I agree with any proposal that involves the B39 joining the M14A/D+ on the 14th Street “Busway”, also with the intention of alleviating  crowds. Articulated Buses would necessary for the B39 under this scenario to help displaced  riders get between Manhattan and Brooklyn. Coming to think of it, why didn’t  consider this option, and will anyone bring it up in the next board meeting?

Edited April 28, 2019 by LaGuardia Link N Tra

[B35 via Church]

11 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

The B39 as a bus route has more potential.....

Separate from anything involving the work? Please explain, because I'm not seeing it....

When you hear desperation out of some Williamsburg residents & business owners to the point where they're threatening to uproot, that speaks volumes.... That would have those that don't know any better, believe that the is the ONLY mode of public transit about the area & there's nothing else (bus or subway) that exists for miles.... Nobody up there (hipster Williamsburg, quote-unquote) is thinking about a B39 & for damn sure the Jewish part of Williamsburg isn't either.... On the Manhattan side, East Villagers & Loisaida's (Lower East Siders) aren't trying to get to Brooklyn like that... SoHo, NoHo, Little Italy, forget it...

So what, or where is this latency you're speaking of? Or are you just saying that because it sounds nice.....

[Lil 57]

I have a few proposals of what should have been done for the  train work. I'll list them down below.

1. B39 extension: stated in the above posts.

2. BM2 span increases: Service would start earlier coming from Manhattan on Saturdays (7:30 AM will be the first Brooklyn bound bus) and Service would end later going towards Manhattan on Saturdays. (The last Manhattan Bound bus would be 10 PM) The last Brooklyn bound bus would also be 11:30 PM. There would also be Sunday service added to the BM2. On Sundays the span would be from 7:30 AM to 7:30 PM to Manhattan and 9 AM to 9 PM back to Brooklyn. Service would run every 30-60 minutes on Saturdays and every 60 minutes on Sundays.

3. NYC Ferry: New route from Greenpoint and Williamsburg going to Manhattan stopping at Stuyvesant Cove and E. 34th Street. Some B24 trips would be extended to the Greenpoint Ferry Terminal to connect with the ferry arrivals/departures. A Branch of the Q59 would also be created going to the Williamsburg Ferry Terminal and would connect with the ferry arrivals/departures as well.

4. B91/B92 extension: The B91 and B92 would also be extended to serve the Williamsburg Ferry Terminal.

 

[BrooklynBus]

5 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

You're kind of all over the place here....

You want to make a point regarding inconvenience? Alright.... So why should anybody at that same intersection [Utica/Empire] needing KCH have to take a bus (your proposed B12) all the way to Nostrand/Empire, running down Nostrand, swinging back across Clarkson, stymieing at New York av - to then have to WALK from NY av to the hospital entrances? Either that, or take TWO buses (your proposed B50 to your proposed B43)?

AFAIC, you're putting too much stock in completing a grid.

Given ideal circumstances, perhaps.... I mean, we could use more useful interborough routes....

Am I really? Please stop putting words in my mouth. When did I say that someone at Utica/ Empire would have to take my B49 to reach Kings County Hospital? I am not proposing to reroute the B12 along Empire Blvd. They would continue to use the B12 along the same streets to get to Kings County Hospital as they do now. I am proposing other changes to the B12 but that portion of the route would be unaffected. 

As I said I lived there for 25 years and used the buses for that long and I can tell you this is one area where the grid needs to be completed.