Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[JeremiahC99]

25 minutes ago, Orion6025 said:

Borough Hall and Bklyn Bridge City Hall are both ADA accessible IIRC.

Well, now at least. I don't know about then.

Borough Hall is partially ADA accessible. Only the northbound  platform has access.

[Lex]

43 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Borough Hall is partially ADA accessible. Only the northbound  platform has access.

As do the Broadway-7th Avenue platforms and the platforms at Fulton Street.

[B35 via Church]

As much as I would like for the B51 to be reverted, I don't see it garnering near the usage as it did when it existed 10+ years ago.... Matter fact, I think it would most trips in today's time would carry air - including during the rush....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

11 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

As much as I would like for the B51 to be reverted, I don't see it garnering near the usage as it did when it existed 10+ years ago.... Matter fact, I think it would most trips in today's time would carry air - including during the rush....

Yes, I think the demographics have changed considerably and that's really the issue here.

[R68OnBroadway]

Forgive me as I am very unfamiliar with the Brooklyn bus network, but is there demand for an express bus to Manhattan Beach? I'd assume most people now take the bus to Brighton Beach, but is there demand for an express bus?

[Lex]

31 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Forgive me as I am very unfamiliar with the Brooklyn bus network, but is there demand for an express bus to Manhattan Beach? I'd assume most people now take the bus to Brighton Beach, but is there demand for an express bus?

Given that the bulk of people going out there are KCC students, I can't imagine so, especially since the number of people going between there and Lower/Midtown Manhattan is unlikely to be high enough to justify. Not helping is the fact that it's so removed that in order to be time-competitive, it would basically have to have its last stop in the vicinity of the Brighton Line, and even with that, it would still have to try to beat the  there. To make matters even worse, the bulk of that (small) area is residential, with business only having a small presence just outside the gate.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

1 hour ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Forgive me as I am very unfamiliar with the Brooklyn bus network, but is there demand for an express bus to Manhattan Beach? I'd assume most people now take the bus to Brighton Beach, but is there demand for an express bus?

I think you'd see more demand from an express bus in Brighton Beach. The thing with Brooklyn is that it's hard to design an express bus route east of the Brighton Line that catches both enough riders and has notable time-savings.

Ocean Parkway exists, but getting buses onto Ocean Parkway becomes more of an issue the further North you go, because not only are there less underpasses in the area, but virtually none of the underpasses are high enough for MCI buses to travel under. So you basically have to have them run up Ocean Avenue to Cortelyou. There are suitable underpasses south of Avenue K, but the catchment area is smaller. 

Edited April 12, 2019 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Forgive me as I am very unfamiliar with the Brooklyn bus network, but is there demand for an express bus to Manhattan Beach? I'd assume most people now take the bus to Brighton Beach, but is there demand for an express bus?

Some people that live in Manhattan Beach just walk across the bridge or over to Shore Blvd and get the BM3 express bus from there along Emmons and that segment of people isn't that large to be honest, but they are there generally on the border in the condos or co-ops where Manhattan Beach begins. The walk from Emmons into parts of Manhattan Beach is not very far depending on where in Manhattan Beach you live. When I take the BM3 some people get on right at Shore Blvd and Emmons.  Manhattan Beach basically uses the services that Sheepshead Bay uses.

I grew up down there right on the Manhattan Beach/Sheepshead Bay border with friends in both neighborhoods.  When I had to go deep into Manhattan Beach, I crossed over the bridge to and from which is what people from Manhattan Beach do for things like grocery shopping. They come into Sheepshead Bay since there is really no real commerce there save a few things along Oriental Blvd like the pizzeria.  Quite frankly a lot of people in Manhattan Beach are the types that will drive. They are doctors or other professional types that have made it and most won't be caught dead on any form on public transportation.  Now some of them do use public transportation and take the B1 over to the subway or the B49, but for the most part if you live in Manhattan Beach you are generally trying to keep up appearances. You are not living in a multi million dollar home and taking the local bus to the subway.  Just isn't happening. If you notice all of the high-end European cars up and down Emmons Avenue, a lot of them come from Manhattan Beach.... Porsches, Mercedez Benz, BMW's etc. 

When I lived down there, the area was more of an old school ethnic area but it's always been a more upper middle class kind of place.  Now you have the Russians that come over from Brighton Beach that have "made it" and they like to keep up appearances. Fancy car, big house... That type of thing.

As @BM5 via Woodhaven said, parts of Brighton Beach would do better because there's that large co-op near to where the X29 used to end. Anytime express bus service comes up, it's usually them complaining because they used to have it and would use it. That's one reason why areas with co-ops and condos do well with express buses because you have areas with sizable populations and people that have $$ but they aren't too proud not to use public transportation, so they don't mind taking the express bus because it's acceptable enough.  

 

31 minutes ago, Lex said:

Given that the bulk of people going out there are KCC students, I can't imagine so, especially since the number of people going between there and Lower/Midtown Manhattan is unlikely to be high enough to justify. Not helping is the fact that it's so removed that in order to be time-competitive, it would basically have to have its last stop in the vicinity of the Brighton Line, and even with that, it would still have to try to beat the  there. To make matters even worse, the bulk of that (small) area is residential, with business only having a small presence just outside the gate.

The KCC students are pretty much taking the bus to the subway.  They simply aren't taking the express bus like that since most of them come from Brooklyn anyway.  The people that actually live in Manhattan Beach... As I said, those people generally drive depending on where in the area they live. The rest take the bus to the subway and a small segment right on the Sheepshead Bay/Manhattan Beach border take the BM3.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Via Garibaldi 8

[R68OnBroadway]

Looks like then we have found a neighborhood that it is the epitome of suburbanite-like residents that think they’re too good to use public transport that so many people have discussed on this forum.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Looks like then we have found a neighborhood that it is the epitome of suburbanite-like residents that think they’re too good to use public transport that so many people have discussed on this forum.

There are plenty of neighborhoods like that.  It's just a question of not having a need for it or people prefer to drive.

[Yankees4life]

On 4/12/2019 at 4:28 PM, R68OnBroadway said:

Forgive me as I am very unfamiliar with the Brooklyn bus network, but is there demand for an express bus to Manhattan Beach? I'd assume most people now take the bus to Brighton Beach, but is there demand for an express bus?

No, there is no demand as others said. BM3 is not too far away anyways...

[aemoreira81]

Staying in Manhattan Beach:

Just a rumination, but what about establishing a pre-payment station at the loop before Kingsborough? It would be used for all routes originating there, similar to the Orchard Beach bus terminal.

Also, during peak times of class changes, as well as when Goldstein lets out, select buses should be told to start at the second stop to handle other Manhattan Beach ridership. Also, I have to wonder: might a seasonal B44 SBS branch make sense to relieve the B49, in particular? This would be an extension of several Avenue U short-turns. The season would be September to June, excluding the last week of the calendar year, with reduced service when only Goldstein is in session.

[Bay Ridge Express]

1 hour ago, aemoreira81 said:

Also, I have to wonder: might a seasonal B44 SBS branch make sense to relieve the B49, in particular? This would be an extension of several Avenue U short-turns. The season would be September to June, excluding the last week of the calendar year, with reduced service when only Goldstein is in session.

I don't know if it's really necessary. You already have 2 services there: the B1 and B49, and it seems like the B44 SBS is suited to a different demographic, and would make the total runtime on the B44 even longer. I think it would just be better to establish a simpler connection between Manhattan Beach and the B44, although that doesn't necessarily mean running 3 services to Manhattan Beach, especially when some residents there don't take the local bus anyway (I'd assume people would walk via Ocean Av Bridge to reach Sheepshead Bay for B44 or B4 > B44, if the B4's headways aren't actually crap)

Edited April 16, 2019 by Bay Ridge Express

[Yankees4life]

2 hours ago, aemoreira81 said:

Staying in Manhattan Beach:

Just a rumination, but what about establishing a pre-payment station at the loop before Kingsborough? It would be used for all routes originating there, similar to the Orchard Beach bus terminal.

Also, during peak times of class changes, as well as when Goldstein lets out, select buses should be told to start at the second stop to handle other Manhattan Beach ridership. Also, I have to wonder: might a seasonal B44 SBS branch make sense to relieve the B49, in particular? This would be an extension of several Avenue U short-turns. The season would be September to June, excluding the last week of the calendar year, with reduced service when only Goldstein is in session.

I mean I don't think they need to send down B44SBSs down there. The B1 and the B4 and the B49 should be enough. Don't forget that there is a B49 LTD as well that pops up every morning to KCC...

[EastFlatbushLarry]

i understand that Kingsboro is a community college, but I'm personally of a belief they could/should provide busing of their own (budget permitting) to Sheepshead Bay Station, similar to Queens College (to/from jamaica-Sutphin). I've operated the 49 in years past, from what I can recall is most of those students exited at Sheepshead, and the rest were mostly finshed off by Kings Highway. i don't understand this philosophy of somehow there's a Flatbush-KCC connection via the B44SBS. maybe it's something new, that would be news to me, but again maybe the onus should be on KCC to do some good for their student body and hire consolidated or some lesser school bus company

[JeremiahC99]

3 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

i understand that Kingsboro is a community college, but I'm personally of a belief they could/should provide busing of their own (budget permitting) to Sheepshead Bay Station, similar to Queens College (to/from jamaica-Sutphin). I've operated the 49 in years past, from what I can recall is most of those students exited at Sheepshead, and the rest were mostly finshed off by Kings Highway. i don't understand this philosophy of somehow there's a Flatbush-KCC connection via the B44SBS. maybe it's something new, that would be news to me, but again maybe the onus should be on KCC to do some good for their student body and hire consolidated or some lesser school bus company

B44 ridership south of Avenue X during the off hours is very light. Meanwhile, B1 and B49 service during the class dismissal times is a total shitshow, with buses becoming instantly crowded at Kingsborough and not even stopping in Manhattan Beach and Brighton Beach. By having the B44 SBS serve it, with fare machines over there, and having some B44 SBS buses serve the stop, crowding can be reduced on the B1, B49, and the  and  by diverting those subway riders to the parallel  and  trains. Those going to central Flatbush would be able to have a faster ride, while those needing the  and  would enjoy less crowded conditions on the line. The B49 LTD would then be split off into another route running the length of both Ocean Avenue and Empire Blvd.

The idea is not new. Allan Rosen, a Manhattan Beach resident who goes by @BrooklynBus came up with this very ingenious ideas. The plan has been discussed on Sheepshead Bites (now Bklyner) a few times when the B44 SBS was being planned, and also when the crowding conditions on the B1 and B49 during school dismissal times became so severe. It was also briefly bought in November as a suggestion in attracting Bus ridership when redesigning the routes. It’s 2019. Let’s start improving service in Manhattan Beach.

[JeremiahC99]

4 hours ago, Yankees4life said:

I mean I don't think they need to send down B44SBSs down there. The B1 and the B4 and the B49 should be enough. Don't forget that there is a B49 LTD as well that pops up every morning to KCC...

That is NOT enough during Kingsborough dismissal times. The B1 and B49 is one hell of a crap-shot service during those times, with buses becoming instantly full at the first stop and making a grand total of ZERO stops in Manhattan Beach, Brighton Beach, and Sheepshead Bay.

Having B44 SBS service serve Kingsborough as a branch running from Fulton St would relieve crowding on the nearby buses and subways by providing passengers an alternative to crowding onto the already-overwhelmed B1 and B49 and piling onto the  and .

And if you think that was bad, you should read up on the Memorial Day fiasco from several years ago.

[B35 via Church]

8 hours ago, aemoreira81 said:

Staying in Manhattan Beach:

Just a rumination, but what about establishing a pre-payment station at the loop before Kingsborough? It would be used for all routes originating there, similar to the Orchard Beach bus terminal.

Don't have much of an opinion about it, because it shouldn't have to be a thing.... For as large a student body KCC has (and touts quite a bit about), they're getting off too light with its lackadaisical efforts in its transporting of its students.....

....as far as the omitted part of your post, I'm not opening Pandora's box in here again.

5 hours ago, Yankees4life said:

I mean I don't think they need to send down B44SBSs down there. The B1 and the B4 and the B49 should be enough. Don't forget that there is a B49 LTD as well that pops up every morning to KCC...

B4 is a complete non-factor though.

4 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

i understand that Kingsboro is a community college, but I'm personally of a belief they could/should provide busing of their own (budget permitting) to Sheepshead Bay Station, similar to Queens College (to/from jamaica-Sutphin). I've operated the 49 in years past, from what I can recall is most of those students exited at Sheepshead, and the rest were mostly finshed off by Kings Highway. i don't understand this philosophy of somehow there's a Flatbush-KCC connection via the B44SBS. maybe it's something new, that would be news to me, but again maybe the onus should be on KCC to do some good for their student body and hire consolidated or some lesser school bus company

It's predicated on the fact that you do (or at least, did... IDK how prevalent it is now) have students taking the B49 from Flatbush, Crown Hgts., and Bed Stuy taking it all the way to KCC..... But as I've said on here multiple times in the past, KCC should have far more responsibility in shuttling its students.... The MTA is doing too much of the heavy lifting, so to speak....

[BrooklynBus]

On 4/12/2019 at 4:14 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yes, I think the demographics have changed considerably and that's really the issue here.

Don’t forget the original B51 proposal called for it to start at Grand Army Plaza, but was rejected because the MTA didn’t want it to be successful because they world rather you stand in a crowded subway than be comfortable in a bus. The same reason they will not run a local bus through the Carey Tunnel. 

[JeremiahC99]

7 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Don’t forget the original B51 proposal called for it to start at Grand Army Plaza, but was rejected because the MTA didn’t want it to be successful because they world rather you stand in a crowded subway than be comfortable in a bus. The same reason they will not run a local bus through the Carey Tunnel. 

God they are so damn arrogant. If the public wants a B51 from Grand Army so they can avoid , then GIVE THEM THE DAMN ROUTE.

 

What is so hard about that, since local bus routes to Manhattan via the Manhattan Bridge or the Carey Tunnel have potential to be successful?

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by JeremiahC99

[BrooklynBus]

5 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

i understand that Kingsboro is a community college, but I'm personally of a belief they could/should provide busing of their own (budget permitting) to Sheepshead Bay Station, similar to Queens College (to/from jamaica-Sutphin). I've operated the 49 in years past, from what I can recall is most of those students exited at Sheepshead, and the rest were mostly finshed off by Kings Highway. i don't understand this philosophy of somehow there's a Flatbush-KCC connection via the B44SBS. maybe it's something new, that would be news to me, but again maybe the onus should be on KCC to do some good for their student body and hire consolidated or some lesser school bus company

I have already discussed the need for a B44 SBS in detail. The existing service is just not adequate. Kingsborough has the highest auto usage of any City University College. The MTA needs to get residences data from the college to do adequate planning. I agree that the costs need to be shared between the college and the MTA because it is not fare for the MTA to pick up 80 percent of the burden. The students who drive choose the alternative of a 20 to 30 minute ride over a 90 minute ride. Many use two buses over a bus train and bus just to save a fare. If that weren’t the case then maybe the B44 SBS would not be necessary. But with the current fare structure it would be a great time savings for students from Crown Heights, East Flatbush and Bed Stuy. Kingsborough students come fro all over including Queens and Staten Island. Another alternative which needs to be considered would be to run buses from Canarsie Pier (possibly school buses) to the college to reduce auto usage provides there would be enough spare parking at the pier. Having buses start at the second stop to pick up other passengers would be wasteful, since you would never get ore than 20 passengers on a bus and under 10 most of the time. 

[B35 via Church]

Not for the MTA's reasons, but I wouldn't have bothered w/ running the B51 to Grand Army plz....

------------------------------

I'd like to see something running along Myrtle from Ft. Greene/Clinton Hill, over the bridge on in to Manhattan, en route to Park Row....

A bus running in Brooklyn CB6 territory through the BBT on up to S. Ferry, is one of those things I'd also like to see happen....

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

God they are so damn arrogant. If the public wants a B51 from Grand Army so they can avoid , then GIVE THEM THE DAMN ROUTE.

 

What is so hard about that, since local bus routes to Manhattan via the Manhattan Bridge or the Carey Tunnel have potential to be successful?

 

They are looking at it from pure economics. What costs the cheapest to run once everything is in place. It's the subway. Then comes local bus, then express bus, and finally access a ride. So get as many into the mode that costs the least. So if you can take a bus or train, pack most of them into the mode that costs the least to operate. You do that by limiting their other choices. So you don't run buses that compete with trains. If they could politically, they would eliminate every bus route at operates along a subway route. You don't operate a B51 or B71 to Manhattan. 

When I was in Planning School, I was taught that one of the advantages with public operation vs private operation is that public operators recognizes needs other than economic such as accessibility and comfort. But apparently that doesn't apply to the MTA since they avoid making the system accessible as much as they can get away with and don't give a damn about passenger comfort making the seats as uncomfortable as possible, eliminating seats to increase standing room and operating packed trains at 11 PM on Saturday nights. This is especially true at least on the Q and C. 

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Not for the MTA's reasons, but I wouldn't have bothered w/ running the B51 to Grand Army plz....

------------------------------

I'd like to see something running along Myrtle from Ft. Greene/Clinton Hill, over the bridge on in to Manhattan, en route to Park Row....

A bus running in Brooklyn CB6 territory through the BBT on up to S. Ferry, is one of those things I'd also like to see happen....

I can see your point since those along Myrtle no longer have a direct train into Manhattan while those in CB 6 territory do. 

[Future ENY OP]

7 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

i understand that Kingsboro is a community college, but I'm personally of a belief they could/should provide busing of their own (budget permitting) to Sheepshead Bay Station, similar to Queens College (to/from jamaica-Sutphin). I've operated the 49 in years past, from what I can recall is most of those students exited at Sheepshead, and the rest were mostly finshed off by Kings Highway. i don't understand this philosophy of somehow there's a Flatbush-KCC connection via the B44SBS. maybe it's something new, that would be news to me, but again maybe the onus should be on KCC to do some good for their student body and hire consolidated or some lesser school bus company

I’ve said this in the past. No need for any B44SBS or local services to KCC. KCC to me is not the biggest college destination. I was one of the lucky people to attend City Tech back in my days. I get that KCC does not have the adequate transportation with only the B1, and B49. The  and the BM3 stop a pretty long distance to the college. But KCC needs their own shuttle instead of having seasonal service via the B44. That won’t solve anything.  KCC is car oriented where as City Tech is strictly dependent on public transportation. 

 

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Not for the MTA's reasons, but I wouldn't have bothered w/ running the B51 to Grand Army plz....

------------------------------

I'd like to see something running along Myrtle from Ft. Greene/Clinton Hill, over the bridge on in to Manhattan, en route to Park Row....

A bus running in Brooklyn CB6 territory through the BBT on up to S. Ferry, is one of those things I'd also like to see happen....

I’d also like to see a Myrtle Avenue bus via Manhattan Bridge to City Hall. A good terminal would be Myrtle-Willioughby  to Park Row. 

Once upon of time CB6 talked about a BBT/South Ferry route. It’s been pretty quiet on the transportation end of that community board. 

[BrooklynBus]

17 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

I’ve said this in the past. No need for any B44SBS or local services to KCC. KCC to me is not the biggest college destination. I was one of the lucky people to attend City Tech back in my days. I get that KCC does not have the adequate transportation with only the B1, and B49. The  and the BM3 stop a pretty long distance to the college. But KCC needs their own shuttle instead of having seasonal service via the B44. That won’t solve anything.  KCC is car oriented where as City Tech is strictly dependent on public transportation. 

 

Those who drive to KCC face a 90 minute to 2 hour public transportation alternative. They already operate shuttle buses from Brighton Beach and Stillwell Avenue. According to surveys I personally conducted, those buses pick up 20 percent of the B1 passengers destined for the college. And the service is still inadequate. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by BrooklynBus