NYC Subway proposals and "real world" expansion ( i.e light rail) 2012-'13

[sunsetparker]

Here's a map that I have made, well sort of. I used the MTA map as a template (hope that's ok) and then I added onto it some research that I have done for realistic subway expansion using underutilized or abandoned tracks. The map explains the expansion. You should be able to download it from the link and look at it more closely. I did not give specific names to the stations.

 

All subway expansion is either already planned or on currently underutilized tracks. Staten Island gets its second SIR line on a currently abandoned railroad, the Bay Ridge LIRR becomes a radial subway line, and the LIC branch of the LIRR becomes a subway line speedily and frequently running along the bottom of Queens. It could not be linked to the 7 due to costs and track width but with transfers and frequent ferry services it could work.

 

In Bay Ridge, where the radial line terminates, would be a choice of ferries (run in the frequency of a subway line and run by the MTA) to bring passengers to Staten Island, Manhattan, or other parts of Brooklyn and Queens. This will be a popular commuting method for people in southwestern Brooklyn since it might be quicker.

 

The thin red lines in Staten Island, Queens and Brooklyn are light rail lines to feed subway lines and connect neighborhoods. These could be reduced to Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) if we get desperate. I have a wobbly line along the Brooklyn waterfront from Red Hood, through Downtown and up to Williamsburg; we need a link there. Up in the Bronx, Co-op City finally gets a better transit option, and LaGuardia is finally linked to the system better than with the ridiculous buses that connect it now.

 

In Manhattan, I have rerouted the lower part of SAS along the J/Z. It is underutilized and Chambers Street would be a beautiful terminus for SAS if it were ever renovated. We might be able to save a couple of billion with the SAS rerouting to fund other projects. The only station missing from it, really, is the Seaport station which might be able to be added to the A/C before it heads into Brooklyn.

 

Have a look and give me input. I'd appreciate it. It's not perfect, but the thing about my map is that it is not THAT much of a fantasy. It is just a reworking of things that are already there and a few light rail lines and ferries. It would make life easier for millions of people.

[Roadcruiser1]

It's quite workable in reality since Robert Moses bridges can support light rail including the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, but some of these ideas are not going to happen. For example the North Shore Rail has been voted to be turned into a bus rapid transit corridor, I have some doubt that the central light rail line for Staten Island on your map would be built due to the narrowness of the streets, you should have included the West Shore Light rail on that map as well.

 

Some other things are now being built on these plans. For example Nostrand Avenue will now get bus rapid transit. Utica Avenue should too. If anything the Utica Avenue BRT should be the one that goes over to the Rockaways. The light rail lines on Eastern Queens and the Bronx are great ideas, but they really shouldn't loop that much or else they would be quite slower. Also Co-Op City residents are about to receive MNRR service so I won't call that their first step. The light rail alignments aren't bad either, but some things although they sound good aren't going to be that good. For example the Second Avenue Subway alignment that would run with the Nassau Street Line is impossible. The streets there are very narrow. The did a study on this and considered it to be impossible.

 

Your ferry ideas aren't bad either however the ferries for the East River exists as the East River Ferry, but not bad. It could happen.

[Brooklyn]

I like your ideas...

 

Light rail can work, especially in the outer boros....I really like the idea of a light rail to the Rockaways from Flatbush av-but I don't know if there's enough room on the Gil Hodges for it, but I think there might be. That would tremendously shorten my commute when I go out to the Rockaways. To be bold, I would have it extend through the length of the peninsula meeting up with the at Mott Av and/or the LIRR station. Travel can be a pain in the behind out there....

 

Southeastern Queens can use a light rail: something going straight North-south, and something going east/west.

 

The Triboro Rx would be a life saver for a lot of people, especially those who live and work in East Flatbush. There are a lot of people who commute from Brooklyn to Queens (like health care workers) and that would cut some of their commutes in half (or less), not to mention take some strain off bus routes (like the B6 B11and B103).

 

I like your use of ferries....I think NYC needs to seriously look at ferries to alleviate some transportation issues....ferries can be a very affordable mode of transportation, comparatively speaking.

 

Queens BLVD definitely needs a trunk line, and I like that idea as well.

 

I like your map. I have some similar ideas and a map as well--it is very similar to yours, actually.

 

Good job.

[Threxx]

Well, other than Staten Island, I like all the light rail ideas (NYC Overground anyone?) especially the one serving Eastern Queens.

 

As for the SAS, the was planning to connect the SAS to the Nassau Line, but it physically can't be done because of soil conditions. The Triboro Rx is great, but you will have to get around two roadblocks:

 

It has to be railway.

You will have to get some sort of agreement with Amtrak to use their rail.

 

And as for the LIE line, I agree, but many people in that area may object to it as it goes through highly residential areas.

 

Forgot about the ferries, and by tweaking the routes of the East River Ferry, maybe even combining it with the water taxi, you can make NYC Bay Ferry System.

 

My Proposed routes:

 

1. Brooklyn-Queens-34th Street

2. Brooklyn-Downtown Loop

3. Queens-34th Street-Downtown

 

No Staten Island ferry, as SI'ers would be reluctant to use a ferry that would cost them as compared to a ferry that costs nothing. I would actually connect the Triboro RX to St George, for a connection to SI.

 

The

Queens BLVD definitely needs a trunk line, and I like that idea as well.

 

 

Queens Blvd has a trunk line, the , , & . I think you meant the LIE...

[Rick44]

All great ideas except for the Flatbush Av light rail (I agree with ThrexxBus, should be Utica), and all light rails should be BRT's, saving money on rails, and saving money on removal, just in case it does not work out. It's unfortunate the Nassau line connection cannot be done, I did not know the wanted to do that. Anyways, the MTA would be better off using the NY Waterway as a channel for ferry service, starting with the implementation of the Metrocard.

@ThrexxBus, I do not agree with one part of your statement about the TriboroRX. It does not have to be a railroad line. It can be a subway line and still serve the freight trains, by creating the line a B Division line (so freight trains can fit), and creating a schedule that would operate with the freight train schedule, without any disturbance to either trains. If possible, there can be diversions on trains to the TriboroRX line via Livonia Av.

As for your reasoning of the SI ferry not having a fare, it should. Anyone and everyone would prefer something free than be charged for it. The should change how double-charging is employed @ St. George. The transfer from SIR to Ferry should be a free transfer, programmed into the Metrocard (like if you take the NB B46 to the WB B6 to the NB B44, you get a free transfer to the B44, & not pay a fare).

[trainfan22]

Lovin' the rail service on the Bay Ridge Branch!

 

I always wonder how that would look on the map.

[Shortline Bus]

Guys please lets keep this to proposals in future i.e 10-20 years from now. Meaning City subway expansion and light rail only within the 5 boros. However If there unrealstic proposals such as extending the to Great Neck, etc. on here, seriously this thread will be locked faster than getting a keys to a new Caddy lol.

Thanks

[NX Express]

^Shortline: this is, in essence, an ideas thread, so while the OP's goal is realism, there's no reason for the thread to be locked if the ideas are not realistic.

 

About your ideas, sunset:

This is the most realistic and possible large-scale plan I've seen in a while. I especially like your idea of using ferries as a practical means of transport. However:

TBH, the South Montauk Line (the LIRR line turned subway via South Queens) would not be a viable alternative to the QBL Line because it ends in a ferry - passengers would need to transfer from a train to a boat to a train (that's why SI has so many express buses - people aren't very enthusiastic about using the SI Ferry). It definitely needs some kind of direct connection to Manhattan. What seems possible, from a check of Google Maps, is merging the proposed line into the 53 St tube with only one block of tunneling (the can be moved to the other two tunnels).

 

For the record, subway trains cannot travel on freight or commuter lines, or any line that has a track connection to one of those. This is not allowed because the subway trains do not meet FRA crashworthiness standards.

 

About the Hell Gate Bridge problem (there is only one track available) - it would be possible for trains to run single-tracked over the bridge (as it's not a Manhattan line, I'd assume it wouldn't run very frequently, and with London Overground-style frequencies, it would work).

[Roadcruiser1]

^Shortline: this is, in essence, an ideas thread, so while the OP's goal is realism, there's no reason for the thread to be locked if the ideas are not realistic.

 

About your ideas, sunset:

This is the most realistic and possible large-scale plan I've seen in a while. I especially like your idea of using ferries as a practical means of transport. However:

TBH, the South Montauk Line (the LIRR line turned subway via South Queens) would not be a viable alternative to the QBL Line because it ends in a ferry - passengers would need to transfer from a train to a boat to a train (that's why SI has so many express buses - people aren't very enthusiastic about using the SI Ferry). It definitely needs some kind of direct connection to Manhattan. What seems possible, from a check of Google Maps, is merging the proposed line into the 53 St tube with only one block of tunneling (the can be moved to the other two tunnels).

 

For the record, subway trains cannot travel on freight or commuter lines, or any line that has a track connection to one of those. This is not allowed because the subway trains do not meet FRA crashworthiness standards.

 

About the Hell Gate Bridge problem (there is only one track available) - it would be possible for trains to run single-tracked over the bridge (as it's not a Manhattan line, I'd assume it wouldn't run very frequently, and with London Overground-style frequencies, it would work).

 

 

Is there any way Amtrak might be willing to give up a track for subway service?

 

I also see the ferries doesn't make sense in some areas either. Subways that can connect to Manhattan should, and not much people are willing to commute via ferries. You might have the tourists, but not a lot of commuters unless if there was no viable alternative such as on Staten Island. Also the (8) line isn't really needed. The gap between the BMT Canarsie Line and the IND Queens Boulevard Line is only 3 miles. I wished the would be a bit more geographically accurate with the maps so this error won't be seen. Thanks to this inaccuracy many people believe Central Queens has no subway service which is inaccurate. That area is also served by the LIRR so it makes a subway expansion here less useful. That line isn't really needed.

[NX Express]

Is there any way Amtrak might be willing to give up a track for subway service?

 

I also see the ferries doesn't make sense in some areas either. Subways that can connect to Manhattan should, and not much people are willing to commute via ferries. You might have the tourists, but not a lot of commuters unless if there was no viable alternative such as on Staten Island. Also the (8) line isn't really needed. The gap between the BMT Canarsie Line and the IND Queens Boulevard Line is only 3 miles. I wished the would be a bit more geographically accurate with the maps so this error won't be seen. Thanks to this inaccuracy many people believe Central Queens has no subway service which is inaccurate. That area is also served by the LIRR so it makes a subway expansion here less useful. That line isn't really needed.

 

 

Given that the track in question is on Amtrak's NEC, with high-speed Acelas as well as Regionals running there, I doubt Amtrak would give up a track there.

 

Ferries are useful, but not as a 'bridge' across a river for passengers from a subway line. It's inconvenient to transfer from a subway to a ferry to some other mode of transport on the other shore. Ferries would be useful, however, for connecting isolated neighborhoods (Red Hook, for example) to Manhattan.

 

And the point of subway-ifying the South Montauk Line isn't to close the gap between the QBL and Canarsie; it's to provide extra capacity, similar to the QBL Bypass proposed in the 1970s.

[sunsetparker]

Wow! Thanks to everyone for your feedback! It mostly makes lots of sense. Let me try to reply to you if I can:

@ Roadcruiser1: I agree that some of the ferries do exist, but they are not to the extent that I propose. And, bear in mind, these ferries would be as frequent as a subway line with easy boarding...kind of like a bus. Also, I think it is a shame that they are proposing BRT on the north shore of SI. I thought the tracks were already there for rai. They appear in google maps.

Regarding your second post, I know the 8 line might not have huge passenger numbers but those tracks are just sitting there. At the very least it would provide a link between the "port" of LIC, the M and the trains in Jamaica. There are plenty of people in places like Middle Village who would love to not have to walk 1.5 miles either direction. That is a hike!

@ Brooklyn: Can you give us a link to your map, too?

@ ThrexxBus: I had no idea the city was seriously considering rerouting the SAS to Nassau St. Not only was I thinking of it as a cost-cutting measure. I also thought it would be great to give Chambers Street the standing it deserves as a Terminus for the new subway line. I feel so sorry for that station. It just looks so sad. It's all faded glory like Coney Island in the 80s or British seaside resorts.

@ Rick44: Do we really want all BRT and no light rail? I find the SBS on 1st and 2nd Avenues so disappointing. I still feel like it takes forever since people seem to block the bus lanes so frequently. But maybe if they did something like the Silver Line in Boston or the new BRTs in Bogota, Columbia it could work on Flatbush Ave. Ocean Parkway could also be a great route for that. But giving up the service roads or a lane of traffic in the middle could be an issue.

@ShortlineBus: I have tried to keep this as realistic as possible and everything on my map is within the 5 boroughs. This all could be done in the next 10 to 20 years if people put their minds to it, no?

@NX Express: What if the ferry connecting to Manhattan was VERY frequent and took them to many different places? I see what you mean. Train-ferry-train is not ideal. Good idea about rerouting into the 53rd St tunnel!

[Threxx]

Wow! Thanks to everyone for your feedback! It mostly makes lots of sense. Let me try to reply to you if I can:

@ Roadcruiser1: I agree that some of the ferries do exist, but they are not to the extent that I propose. And, bear in mind, these ferries would be as frequent as a subway line with easy boarding...kind of like a bus. Also, I think it is a shame that they are proposing BRT on the north shore of SI. I thought the tracks were already there for rai. They appear in google maps.

Regarding your second post, I know the 8 line might not have huge passenger numbers but those tracks are just sitting there. At the very least it would provide a link between the "port" of LIC, the M and the trains in Jamaica. There are plenty of people in places like Middle Village who would love to not have to walk 1.5 miles either direction. That is a hike!

@ Brooklyn: Can you give us a link to your map, too?

@ ThrexxBus: I had no idea the city was seriously considering rerouting the SAS to Nassau St. Not only was I thinking of it as a cost-cutting measure. I also thought it would be great to give Chambers Street the standing it deserves as a Terminus for the new subway line. I feel so sorry for that station. It just looks so sad. It's all faded glory like Coney Island in the 80s or British seaside resorts.

@ Rick44: Do we really want all BRT and no light rail? I find the SBS on 1st and 2nd Avenues so disappointing. I still feel like it takes forever since people seem to block the bus lanes so frequently. But maybe if they did something like the Silver Line in Boston or the new BRTs in Bogota, Columbia it could work on Flatbush Ave. Ocean Parkway could also be a great route for that. But giving up the service roads or a lane of traffic in the middle could be an issue.

@ShortlineBus: I have tried to keep this as realistic as possible and everything on my map is within the 5 boroughs. This all could be done in the next 10 to 20 years if people put their minds to it, no?

@NX Express: What if the ferry connecting to Manhattan was VERY frequent and took them to many different places? I see what you mean. Train-ferry-train is not ideal. Good idea about rerouting into the 53rd St tunnel!

 

 

The North Shore on SI can be rebuilt into a light rail in the future, as the planned viaduct can handle the weight.

 

Yeah, Chambers Street really needs to be fixed. I would actually connect the SAS to Rutgers and run the to Avenue (X) on the line, which would allow the to run express.

[NX Express]

Do we have any proof about the soil condition preventing SAS being connected to Nassau St? People keep mentioning it, with no sources.

 

Threxx: the would not fit (or would barely fit) in the Rutgers Tunnel, since the is 15 tph and I assume the would be no less than that.

[Gorgor]

In Manhattan, I have rerouted the lower part of SAS along the J/Z. It is underutilized and Chambers Street would be a beautiful terminus for SAS if it were ever renovated. We might be able to save a couple of billion with the SAS rerouting to fund other projects. The only station missing from it, really, is the Seaport station which might be able to be added to the A/C before it heads into Brooklyn.

 

 

Chambers Street would be an awful place to end the SAS. There's a reason why it's planned to go to Hanover Square, and Upper East Side residents need access to the Wall Street area, not City Hall.

[NX Express]

Chambers Street would be an awful place to end the SAS. There's a reason why it's planned to go to Hanover Square, and Upper East Side residents need access to the Wall Street area, not City Hall.

 

 

The could easily end at Chambers with the going to Broad St.

[Rick44]

@sunset: It's on a budget. Bus route creation costs less than a light rail. If it does not work out, or if there needs to be alterations on a route, that can be easily done in BRT, rather than ripping up the light rail tracks. Versatility is key.

[checkmatechamp13]

For example the North Shore Rail has been voted to be turned into a bus rapid transit corridor

 

 

....foolishly....

 

, I have some doubt that the central light rail line for Staten Island on your map would be built due to the narrowness of the streets, you should have included the West Shore Light rail on that map as well.

 

Victory Blvd isn't that narrow, and Richmond is anything but narrow (It's probably one of the widest streets in the city, especially by the mall). The Richmond Avenue portion of the route was one of the suggested routes of the West Shore Light Rail.

 

@ ThrexxBus: I had no idea the city was seriously considering rerouting the SAS to Nassau St. Not only was I thinking of it as a cost-cutting measure. I also thought it would be great to give Chambers Street the standing it deserves as a Terminus for the new subway line. I feel so sorry for that station. It just looks so sad. It's all faded glory like Coney Island in the 80s or British seaside resorts.

 

 

They were considering it, but I'm 99% sure they're going to go with the routing further east by Hanover Square.

 

passengers would need to transfer from a train to a boat to a train (that's why SI has so many express buses - people aren't very enthusiastic about using the SI Ferry).

 

 

Well, I think the thing that makes it unattractive is the fact that it's slow and infrequent (which doesn't work well especially when you have to make transfers on both ends). But yeah, given a choice, most commuters prefer a train to a ferry.

 

But yeah, it would be better if it went straight into Manhattan. Maybe it could go straight across 34th Street and end at Penn Station.

[GojiMet86]

Well, I think the thing that makes it unattractive is the fact that it's slow and infrequent (which doesn't work well especially when you have to make transfers on both ends). But yeah, given a choice, most commuters prefer a train to a ferry.

 

But yeah, it would be better if it went straight into Manhattan. Maybe it could go straight across 34th Street and end at Penn Station.

 

 

I did that for my 2nd fantasy map. It's actually a good idea, at least on paper, because then not only are you serving Midtown, but you have a straight shot to New Jersey.

[NX Express]

Well, I think the thing that makes it unattractive is the fact that it's slow and infrequent (which doesn't work well especially when you have to make transfers on both ends). But yeah, given a choice, most commuters prefer a train to a ferry.

 

 

Considering that almost all SI transfers are timed to the ferry, and that it runs every 15 minutes during the rush (not that bad), I'd think that frequency isn't that big an issue, at least during the rush. However, speed and constant transfers are.

 

Back to topic: Ferries need to be high speed, and shouldn't be the middle leg in a customer's journey.

[GojiMet86]

Considering that almost all SI transfers are timed to the ferry, and that it runs every 15 minutes during the rush (not that bad), I'd think that frequency isn't that big an issue, at least during the rush. However, speed and constant transfers are.

 

Back to topic: Ferries need to be high speed, and shouldn't be the middle leg in a customer's journey.

 

 

Fast like the Water Taxi that goes to Ikea.

[Roadcruiser1]

The did do a study. Please read this PDF through.

 

http://www.mta.info/...mary report.pdf

 

For those that are not willing.

 

"The second engineering option proposes subway service that would connect to the existing Nassau Street ( / lines) service. The subway would continue west and then south beneath Delancey Street and Nassau Street into Lower Manhattan before continuing into Brooklyn via the Montague Street Tunnel. The Nassau Street alignment option would bring new subway service to the heart of the Financial District and allow the new service to continue into Brooklyn."

 

"The two different engineering options would have different costs, benefits, effects on subway service, and potential impacts on the community and environment. The cost of the Nassau line option would be lower because this option reduces the amount of new tunnel required. However, by utilizing an existing subway line, this engineering option would have impacts on the existing / service. The number of new riders attracted to the subway system would be greater for the Nassau line option, simply because of its greater coverage by providing service to Brooklyn. However, the Water Street option would provide better ridership benefits within Manhattan and a slightly greater effect in relieving congestion on the existing Lexington Avenue line. The Water Street option would also have more significant potential"

 

[checkmatechamp13]

Considering that almost all SI transfers are timed to the ferry, and that it runs every 15 minutes during the rush (not that bad), I'd think that frequency isn't that big an issue, at least during the rush. However, speed and constant transfers are.

 

Back to topic: Ferries need to be high speed, and shouldn't be the middle leg in a customer's journey.

 

 

In theory they're timed, but sit there and count how often a bus pulls in a minute after the ferry pulls out. I guarantee you that a good 15% of the buses (at least) arrive within 2 minutes of the ferry's departure.

 

Aside from that, if you're in a hurry, a 15 minute wait can definitely be a big turn-off. But I agree that the bigger issue is the speed and additional transfers. If possible, I'd try to run the ferry every 10 minutes during rush hour, and every 15-20 minutes off-peak.

 

As the saying goes "Frequency costs, speed saves", so if you could get smaller, faster boats and run them more frequently, that would be a win-win.

[Roadcruiser1]

The PDF also has this.

 

"For the optional connection to the Nassau line, the soft soils south of 4th Street make use of a TBM impossible. In this area, cut-and-cover construction or a drilling machine appropriate for soft soils (known as an Earth Pressure Balance Machine, or EPBM), may be used. In addition, the connection requires a shallow profile to join with the existing Nassau line, which is just below the surface along Kenmare Street. This shallow profile, combined with the need to construct both the Houston Street station and the Nassau line connection with cut-and-cover methods, make use of a soft-soil tunneling approach, such as an EPBM, more difficult."

 

"Along the existing Nassau line, cut-and-cover construction is expected between the connection and the south end of the existing Canal Street station because of the need to reconstruct a significant portion of the existing structure. For the platform extensions at Chambers, Fulton, and Broad Streets, it is expected that the majority of the work could be completed from within the existing tunnel structure. However, some cut-and-cover construction may be required pending more detailed investigations during advanced design."

 

From what we can get out of the studies that were done. It shows that it is extremely difficult to have a Second Avenue Subway connection to Nassau Street, and it may not even just be difficult, but impossible due to the soil conditions there and the current Nassau Street Tunnel. So this option is off the table.

[Art Vandelay]

It is certainly possible.

 

Just I believe it would be only marginally cheaper for a substantial loss of utility.

[checkmatechamp13]

From what we can get out of the studies that were done. It shows that it is extremely difficult to have a Second Avenue Subway connection to Nassau Street, and it may not even just be difficult, but impossible due to the soil conditions there and the current Nassau Street Tunnel. So this option is off the table.

 

 

It's difficult, but not impossible. I'd imagine it's still cheaper than a seperate line (Not that I'm supporting it or anything, but if the MTA really wanted to do it the cheapskate way, they'd do it).