R46 SIR retrofit Discussion

[Far Rock Depot]

If im not mistaken, SMS doesnt cover the frames right? A GOH maybe, which ill assume will cost more. With the contract for the 46 refit expected to be a month away, i wonder what will be said when the contract does get awarded or delayed?

Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt the R46 refit the MTA's answer for not ordering 179s for SI? isnt the 32 SMS to keep them running for the rest of the decade, when the rumored 211 contract is suppose to be in effect? Arent the current order of 179s suppose to free up the 32s off the C for service on other lines, like the A, to make way for the 64 R46s to go to SI and possibly (my ASSUPMTION) the 10 car sets of 179s to cover the rest of the 46 loss on the A? Those who are debating against the move seem to not realize that 1) its a contract award next month, not shipping the cars for the refit 2) that it will take time to perform said refit 3)that possibly by said refit, 179s will be arriving on the property and -heres the typical MTA move-that service may possibly be adjusted to accommodate the number of cars available for service with these events and the opening of SAS-all around 5, count that, five years from now minimum?

 

i can see why ENY gets upset. He gives info and everyone runs away with it at face value without thinking about one important factor......TIME. The MTA tries to plan accordingly. Granted, not everything goes according to plan nor do they tend to NOT change their minds especially if said plans dont work out. We'll see what happens in over a month.

[Art Vandelay]

The last cycle SMS of the R44 SI included extensive structural work on the cars. It was quite an impressive operation to watch.

 

This cycle of R32 SMS work was intended to extend the life of the cars for 5 years. The primary goal of the R179 order is to retire the R32 fleet.

[Art Vandelay]

SAS is scheduled to open in slightly less than 4 years now, and has been progressing close to schedule for years now. The cars for it need to be on property well before it opens to go through testing and acceptance cycles.

[RollOver]

I get the things you're saying Far Rock Depot. I myself didn't mean to be rude and disrespectful to East New York (same with other members who have inside connections within or who work for the ). I agree that all the 5-car sets of R179s and 40 R32s would free up those 64 R46s for SIR. Do note however, that both R211's and R46's are plan to both run on SIR (subject to change of course just to let other people know!).

[Far Rock Depot]

it could also be planneed for the 211s to be delayed-like the 179s-so to prevent any possible car mishaps the MTA may be using the 46 refit to give them more time to procure the 211s. Remember how long it can take from contract awardig to the pilot arriving on the property. also the SIR 211s may be the last bunch to be delivered, making the total amount of time not being able to be covered by the current 44s, SMS, GoH or not.

 

But it will be very interesting to see how it all plays out beginning with the contract award for the 46's refit.

 

(side note: every time i say or read 'refit' i think of Enterprise-A! #ProudGeek)

[Grand Concourse]

ot: but I like the original Enterprise A before the refit

[Far Rock Depot]

ot: but I like the original Enterprise A before the refit

 

You meant the original. "A" was actually a refit of the Yorktown, renamed after the destruction of the original.

Ok. Back to trains! lmao!

[AndrewJC]

Indeed.

#155

 

And that was even after that staff statement was made which Andrew was talking about. So the plan seems to be still on.

 

 

Because an unsourced claim made by an anonymous member of an Internet message board obviously overrides an explicit statement in a staff summary issued by Aaron Stern, the department head of the Office of Management & Budget, to the MTA Board on December 19, 2012. Obviously.

 

The R46s need a little bit of an SMS and a cab signal system. The R44s, however, are not in a good shape. The frames are starting to rust and detoriate. And you call that good shape? Under what rock are you living? To overhaul the R44s for 7 more years of service=just as expensive as installing a cab signal system on the better shaped R46s.

 

 

Any car class that will be in service until 2020 will need one more round of SMS between now and then. The SIR cars just received a particularly extensive SMS a few years ago that included a lot of structural work.

 

Let me clear up what I meant. The contract is supposed to be awarded in or around February, not car retrofit.

 

 

Great! So we'll be seeing all the details of this supposed contract in a few weeks, when the January board materials are posted online. I'm looking forward!

 

Nice finding! Too bad you can't tell us in contrast to the R46 overhaul for SI. If we don't know how much that'll cost then I'm still staying by the points in my last post.

 

 

The placeholder budget item for the R46 SIR retrofit gives a cost of $20 million, and that's on top of whatever SMS work the cars will need in any case. Aaron Stern's staff summary for the R44 SMS gives a cost of $12.9 million.

 

If im not mistaken, SMS doesnt cover the frames right? A GOH maybe, which ill assume will cost more. With the contract for the 46 refit expected to be a month away, i wonder what will be said when the contract does get awarded or delayed?

 

 

There seems to be some misunderstanding regarding what exactly SMS is. SMS is a system of scheduled car maintenance, intended to replace components before they fail. GOH was a program in place between 1985 and 1992 to overhaul cars that had not been maintained properly until then. There is no GOH anymore. There has not been GOH in over two decades.

 

Since the R44's on SIR will be around for one more SMS cycle, they need funding allocated for that SMS work. That's all.

 

Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt the R46 refit the MTA's answer for not ordering 179s for SI? isnt the 32 SMS to keep them running for the rest of the decade, when the rumored 211 contract is suppose to be in effect? Arent the current order of 179s suppose to free up the 32s off the C for service on other lines, like the A, to make way for the 64 R46s to go to SI and possibly (my ASSUPMTION) the 10 car sets of 179s to cover the rest of the 46 loss on the A?

 

 

No. By the original R160 plan, the R32's were supposed to have been retired by 2010. As such, they did not go through SMS in the years leading up to 2010, as they were about to be retired. When the retirement plan changed, the R32's needed one more round of SMS in order to remain in reliable service until the R179's replace them. The R32's will be fully retired by the R179's.

 

Those who are debating against the move seem to not realize that 1) its a contract award next month, not shipping the cars for the refit 2) that it will take time to perform said refit 3)that possibly by said refit, 179s will be arriving on the property and -heres the typical MTA move-that service may possibly be adjusted to accommodate the number of cars available for service with these events and the opening of SAS-all around 5, count that, five years from now minimum?

 

 

There is no contract award next month. The R179 order includes only 40 cars in 5 car sets, not nearly enough to both replace 64 R46's and open SAS, regardless of any slight adjustments between now and then.

[Far Rock Depot]

My contract award statement was referring to the 46 refit. not the 179s. As well as the Goh referring as an example to a more extensive maintenance program than the current SMS. I remember the old GoH program. I also remember the state of the fleet before it. My point being was that theres a possibility that, due to what had happened to the mainline 44s (which im fully aware that they saw more wear and tear compared to the SI fleet, that maybe the MTA is looking to allocate the money for another R44 SMS to the refit of the 46s to bring in a slightly younger (and maybe more structurally sound fleet) to SI. I know what the original plan for the 32s, 160s as well as the old and new plans for the 179s. "Regardless of any slight adjustments between now and then" is IMHO a short-sighted statement even when including the opening of SAS, which i have already pointed out that will actually shorted the Q route. We all thought the 32s were gone but low and behold, they survived. The MTA may have another rabbit in its hat within the next 7 years. It may help to be open to other possibilities opposite of what youve been constantly preaching in this thread. There must have been a reason the MTA planned the 46 refit in the first place right? If you know why the MTA did so, please enlighten me.

[AndrewJC]

My contract award statement was referring to the 46 refit. not the 179s.

 

 

Yes, there will be no contract award for an R46 retrofit next month.

 

As well as the Goh referring as an example to a more extensive maintenance program than the current SMS. I remember the old GoH program. I also remember the state of the fleet before it. My point being was that theres a possibility that, due to what had happened to the mainline 44s (which im fully aware that they saw more wear and tear compared to the SI fleet, that maybe the MTA is looking to allocate the money for another R44 SMS to the refit of the 46s to bring in a slightly younger (and maybe more structurally sound fleet) to SI.

 

 

You're missing the point. There is no such thing as GOH anymore. GOH was the answer to decades of deferred maintenance. None of the subway (or SIR) cars currently in service are in need of GOH.

 

In the last round of SMS, the SIR R44's underwent significant structural work. They don't need the same structural work a second time a few years later. They just need enough regular maintenance to keep them in service until 2020 or so. Another SMS cycle, in other words.

 

I know what the original plan for the 32s, 160s as well as the old and new plans for the 179s. "Regardless of any slight adjustments between now and then" is IMHO a short-sighted statement even when including the opening of SAS, which i have already pointed out that will actually shorted the Q route.

 

 

And as I pointed out in response, something else will need to replace the Q in Astoria, the W being the cheapest option. The Astoria line isn't some sort of low-ridership backwater than can have its service slashed in half - if it could, then why was the Q extended to Astoria in 2010 in the first place?

 

We all thought the 32s were gone but low and behold, they survived. The MTA may have another rabbit in its hat within the next 7 years. It may help to be open to other possibilities opposite of what youve been constantly preaching in this thread.

 

 

The R32's are still running because it was discovered during their retirement process that the subway's R44's were in immediate need of retirement. In other words, it was an emergency. And the R32's are great cars, and it's wonderful that they could step in in a time of need. But you're suggesting that the SIR R44's be retired much earlier than necessary, forcing the MTA to spend lots of money on a very short-lived investment in the R46's and to keep the R32's going until they reach 56 years?!

 

I'm open to all sorts of possibilities, but I'm not open to "possibilities" that make so little sense that they're not actually possible.

 

There must have been a reason the MTA planned the 46 refit in the first place right? If you know why the MTA did so, please enlighten me.

 

 

I doubt there was any actual plan. There was an allocation of capital funds, and it had to be given a title. Perhaps it was given an SIR-related title in order to mollify Staten Island politicians. In other words, it was a placeholder. Those capital funds will remained allocated to that title until they are reallocated to something else, possibly something else SIR-related, like the procurement of new rolling stock.

[AndrewJC]

I doubt there was any actual plan. There was an allocation of capital funds, and it had to be given a title. Perhaps it was given an SIR-related title in order to mollify Staten Island politicians. In other words, it was a placeholder. Those capital funds will remained allocated to that title until they are reallocated to something else, possibly something else SIR-related, like the procurement of new rolling stock.

 

 

Actually, the original conception of the R179 order included an 80 car option, which would have been the exact right number to offset the loss of 64 R46's to Staten Island. So the original plan may have been based on the assumption that this option order would be exercised.

 

Well, the option order no longer exists - the R179 order that was actually placed was for a 300 car base with no options. So in the end there are no new cars coming in to replace any R46's sent to Staten Island.

[Vistausss]

Well, to be fair, the R32s are really reliable. Hence they are still in service. So of course the wants to have as new cars as possible but they probably also realize that they need some around until the R211s come just in case or to replace the R46s going to SI.

 

In any case: the R44s do have rust body frames so it'll cost more than the estimated 12.9 million to keep them around until 2020. And yes, the SIR is getting the last bunch of 211s so the 44s must live on till after 2020. And you find it weird that the keeps the R32s for 56 years but it's normal that rusty frame R44s getting an SMS are staying around after their lifespan ends? You're a weird kinda guy, you know?

[Far Rock Depot]

as i said, i know theres no more Goh. it was an e-x-a-m-p-l-e.

 

and as far as no award for for an R46 refit:

 

 

as you can see, as of September 30 2012, the plan was still on and was documented. If you can show me otherwise, ill take your word. But this is from the MTA. Until i see otherwise....THIS is what im going by.

 

 

Check.

[R32 3838]

If im not mistaken, SMS doesnt cover the frames right? A GOH maybe, which ill assume will cost more. With the contract for the 46 refit expected to be a month away, i wonder what will be said when the contract does get awarded or delayed?

Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt the R46 refit the MTA's answer for not ordering 179s for SI? isnt the 32 SMS to keep them running for the rest of the decade, when the rumored 211 contract is suppose to be in effect? Arent the current order of 179s suppose to free up the 32s off the C for service on other lines, like the A, to make way for the 64 R46s to go to SI and possibly (my ASSUPMTION) the 10 car sets of 179s to cover the rest of the 46 loss on the A? Those who are debating against the move seem to not realize that 1) its a contract award next month, not shipping the cars for the refit 2) that it will take time to perform said refit 3)that possibly by said refit, 179s will be arriving on the property and -heres the typical MTA move-that service may possibly be adjusted to accommodate the number of cars available for service with these events and the opening of SAS-all around 5, count that, five years from now minimum?

 

i can see why ENY gets upset. He gives info and everyone runs away with it at face value without thinking about one important factor......TIME. The MTA tries to plan accordingly. Granted, not everything goes according to plan nor do they tend to NOT change their minds especially if said plans dont work out. We'll see what happens in over a month.

 

 

The R32 Part Ive been saying for like 2 years now, the SMS work may be light due to the fact that they recived a heavy SMS in 2001-04, but they SMS'ed the cars the way they did for a reason, the MTA might say they will last until the R179's come in but that may not be true, when the R179's come in and when 2nd ave opens at the same time, alot will be going on, plus the R46's going to SI, 64 R46 = 80 60 foot subway cars so the TA will be 80 cars short, but Far Rock, I wouldn't even explain, explainng to these guys is like running into a brick wall, we will see what happens in 2016, some people on here just don't listen

[R32 3838]

Well, to be fair, the R32s are really reliable. Hence they are still in service. So of course the wants to have as new cars as possible but they probably also realize that they need some around until the R211s come just in case or to replace the R46s going to SI.

 

In any case: the R44s do have rust body frames so it'll cost more than the estimated 12.9 million to keep them around until 2020. And yes, the SIR is getting the last bunch of 211s so the 44s must live on till after 2020. And you find it weird that the keeps the R32s for 56 years but it's normal that rusty frame R44s getting an SMS are staying around after their lifespan ends? You're a weird kinda guy, you know?

 

 

Ive said this soo many times on here, but I agree with your statement

[RollOver]

R32 3838 and Vistausss are both right about what they said about the R32s and the SIR R44s. That means Saint Louis Car Company didn't do well with any of the other cars they built to my experience (R38s, R40s, R42s and R44s). I've always been wondering why the R32s are still running and the other four car types aren't (except the SIR R44s and those 48 R42s). I guess stainless steel is far reliable than carbon steel. I do see your points and reasons. Do note however, that everything will go eventually. I'd like to hear what you'll have to R32 3838. Your posts are very interesting and worth reading (same with Far Rock Depot and AndrewJC). Just elaborating on what you guys said.

[ttcsubwayfan]

That means Saint Louis Car Company didn't do well with any of the other cars they built to my experience (R38s, R40s, R42s and R44s).

 

Err, you are aware that those are not the only cars St. Louis built, right? They built the R27/30s, and some IRT SMEEs. The issue with the four classes mentioned above was primarily the acid baths they received to be rid of the graffiti.

[RollOver]

Err, you are aware that those are not the only cars St. Louis built, right?

 

 

Err, yes I'm aware that the 38-44 weren't the only cars built by St. Louis.

[Grand Concourse]

R32 3838 and Vistausss are both right about what they said about the R32s and the SIR R44s. That means Saint Louis Car Company didn't do well with any of the other cars they built to my experience (R38s, R40s, R42s and R44s). I've always been wondering why the R32s are still running and the other four car types aren't (except the SIR R44s and those 48 R42s). I guess stainless steel is far reliable than carbon steel. I do see your points and reasons. Do note however, that everything will go eventually. I'd like to hear what you'll have to R32 3838. Your posts are very interesting and worth reading (same with Far Rock Depot and AndrewJC). Just elaborating on what you guys said.

 

The R40Ms were pretty good. The rusting on their roofs weren't too bad and they didn't have the rusting front issues like the slants. Imo, the MTA should've kept those last instead of the R42s. R38s weren't too bad other than the roofs and if those were still around, they'd be compatible with the R32s running wise. But just my opinion.

[RollOver]

The R40Ms were pretty good. The rusting on their roofs weren't too bad and they didn't have the rusting front issues like the slants. Imo, the MTA should've kept those last instead of the R42s. R38s weren't too bad other than the roofs and if those were still around, they'd be compatible with the R32s running wise. But just my opinion.

 

 

The modified cars seem to be in good condition from my experience, unlike the slants and the 42s. As for the 38s, they seemed okay a bit. They however had sever rot on their exteriors and their interiors had lots of grime. I heard it was because of the Jamaica Bay crossing or a lower build quality. Of course, I don't know the real reason.

[ttcsubwayfan]

Err, yes I'm aware that the 38-44 weren't the only cars built by St. Louis.

 

 

Well, the way you worded your post made it seem as that was what you were suggesting.

 

The R40Ms were pretty good. The rusting on their roofs weren't too bad and they didn't have the rusting front issues like the slants. Imo, the MTA should've kept those last instead of the R42s. R38s weren't too bad other than the roofs and if those were still around, they'd be compatible with the R32s running wise. But just my opinion.

 

 

Interesting, what did they do differently on the Mods that they weren't so rusted like the Slants?

[RollOver]

Well, the way you worded your post made it seem as that was what you were suggesting.

 

 

My fault. I should have said ALL the St. Louis cars that were carbon steel, well some or most. Laugh out loud.

[Grand Concourse]

 

Interesting, what did they do differently on the Mods that they weren't so rusted like the Slants?

 

Dunno. From my observations, the modified cars were nearly rust free on the roofs.

[Quill Depot]

SIR should use some old M3/4/5's, any of those. You'd only need about 2 car trains.

[Grand Concourse]

smh..