R46 SIR retrofit Discussion

[ttcsubwayfan]

Oh, and me could have fooled you?

 

 

?

 

Ok that is enough. Drop the . The countless threads and discussions we have had on this . I don't want it back. And I hope it is that way, but I have to understand that many others do.

 

Here's an idea; All this discussion about the ? Let's put it out of commission and hopefully never see it again, just like the . We have no say. We have beat the crap out of this topic. Why don't we just wait and see what happens.

 

 

Your profile mentions that the subway will never be the same without the ; why are you so opposed to it coming back?

[Brighton Express]

The issue with regards to expanding the N is that the N interacts with 3 other routes along its run, and the southern end has substantially less ridership than the northern end. To minimize this issue, they created a short turn N train which ended at whitehall, and ran local in Manhattan, which they designated . This designation was confusing, so they renamed it the W. (Which coincidentally happened to be a designation which was used towards the end of the Manhattan bridge construction which suspended the <N>/(W) for about 12 years)

 

To briefly summarize, the W trains are those extra N trains that you are proposing!

 

 

Well there you have it.

 

As a side note, the and <W> were both designations for the rush hour Astoria Express. The R160 still has the designation.

 

 

Your profile mentions that the subway will never be the same without the ; why are you so opposed to it coming back?

 

 

Read carefully again, this is the third one I have caught today. I am sure I wrote the Broadway Express. And I mean the that runs West End Local, Express in rush hours, to Coney Island. I really hate the for taking the Broadway Express, and making the throw the to Whitehall.

 

How I see it, bringing back the is bringing back the . It is unnecessary. We are just pulling up something from the past. I am fine with what we have now, and believe that extra trains should solve the problem.

[RollOver]

I would like for FRD to answer my question BE......

[ttcsubwayfan]

Read carefully again, this is the third one I have caught today. I am sure I wrote the Broadway Express. And I mean the that runs West End Local, Express in rush hours, to Coney Island. I really hate the for taking the Broadway Express, and making the throw the to Whitehall.

 

 

Most of your posts refer to it as the , not designating whether or not you are referring to the Local or Express.

 

Also... it's just a letter. It's not the end of the world if the became the Broadway Express instead of the .

[Far Rock Depot]

You're the one who brought this B'way Line thing up... Oh, and me could have fooled you? By how? I've explain why I'm now against the increased service. But since Astoria needs more frequent service, have the run twice every ten minutes and see how much less frequent 's and 's their riders will get. The has to stay frequent for the aforementioned reasons. Even the needs more service on weekends than the does. The shares tracks with the and , so do you think people will use those lines if the didn't came first and that will get off at the same stops the serves? All but Sea Beach?

 

Didn't you JUST SAY you don't care who brought up Broadway?

Why don't we just wait and see what happens.

 

I would love to, but it's always gonna come up and if we did wait and see, this place might be a ghost town. Lol

But we did go off topic. And I do take partial blame. So....

Back on topic, so ok, let's say the MTA decides to cancel sending 46s to SI. Will the 44s hold up? SMS can't fix everything. How are the actual structural conditions of SIR's R44s? Can the hold up past 2016 or so? Does the MTA have a "back up" plan?

[Brighton Express]

Most of your posts refer to it as the , not designating whether or not you are referring to the Local or Express.

 

Also... it's just a letter. It's not the end of the world if the became the Broadway Express instead of the .

 

 

Ok. Listen. I would be satisfied if the went back to its old route. If it did not, I don't want it to come back, and I would want trains to fill the gap. More of a personal preference. Kapeesh?

 

 

Back on topic, so ok, let's say the MTA decides to cancel sending 46s to SI. Will the 44s hold up? SMS can't fix everything. How are the actual structural conditions of SIR's R44s? Can the hold up past 2016 or so? Does the MTA have a "back up" plan?

 

 

The SIR R44s look fine to me, from what I have seen of them. They look another 5 to 10 years atleast. Question though, what did they have on the SIR before the R44? If it was the M3, I am sure they could borrow a couple sets from the MNR and LIRR and buses as a backup plan.

[Far Rock Depot]

I would like for FRD to answer my question BE......

 

Do you REALLY want me to? Is my answer the end-all of all end-alls? Do you really want me to break down everything? This is how flame wars start. If you don't agree with my logic, or come up with logic of your own-when not emotional-is it that dire to sit at a computer and wait? Tick tock tick tock.....

As with most things in life, it's the "needs of the many..." W's, as pointed out earlier, is basically short turned N's. You're just putting a different bullet on it. THAT right there is logic I can't argue with. Either way, both of our arguments are answered with that same single point. I can admit that. Can you? But if you REALLY REALLY want to argue this, you can PM me like most respectful people.

But you may be going "tick tock tick tock " waiting.

[ttcsubwayfan]

Ok. Listen. I would be satisfied if the went back to its old route. If it did not, I don't want it to come back, and I would want trains to fill the gap. More of a personal preference. Kapeesh?

 

 

Personal preferences are fine but not wanting the back because it might not have its old route is like those foamers who refused to ride an orange because it wasn't a . A train bullet is a train bullet, and I'm not bothered if it gets me from here to there.

[Far Rock Depot]

Ok. Listen. I would be satisfied if the went back to its old route. If it did not, I don't want it to come back, and I would want trains to fill the gap. More of a personal preference. Kapeesh?

 

 

 

 

The SIR R44s look fine to me, from what I have seen of them. They look another 5 to 10 years atleast. Question though, what did they have on the SIR before the R44? If it was the M3, I am sure they could borrow a couple sets from the MNR and LIRR and buses as a backup plan.

 

Personal preference. I can dig it.

 

As for 44s, since I've been down there frequently recently, they look fine to me too. But so did the mainline R44s as well. I was referring to similar issues that led to the demise to the mainline fleet, the frame.

Before the R44, not including the borrowed cars(not M3s) they used a car based on the BMT standards.

[Grand Concourse]

 

 

Ok. Listen. I would be satisfied if the went back to its old route. If it did not, I don't want it to come back, and I would want trains to fill the gap. More of a personal preference. Kapeesh?

 

 

 

 

The SIR R44s look fine to me, from what I have seen of them. They look another 5 to 10 years atleast. Question though, what did they have on the SIR before the R44? If it was the M3, I am sure they could borrow a couple sets from the MNR and LIRR and buses as a backup plan.

 

It's a discussion forum, you shouldn't be taking things so personally. It's only a difference of opinions, not like a personal attack on you. Also ok, so we have misread what you said before, not the end of the world. I mean I've had my share of those in my years of posting, you don't see me taking things so personally as often.

 

R44s at SI may look fine, but I believe someone said that it's just a 'band' around the sides It doesn't really solve the issue about the stuff you can't see unless you actually stripped the car down. So, I'll take the word of someone who has worked on those trains to give his opinion on if the R44s are worth salvaging for a few more years. M3s would be a bad idea because the current platforms can hold either 4-5 75' car trains. And some either 1 or 3 cars. So you could run a 4-car M3, but I don't think it will fit all the stations and there are 2 doors at the very ends of the cars vs the 4 sets of doors on the R44s. I don't see LIRR cars working out for SI. SI should get cars similar to subway cars. imo.

[RollOver]

Do you REALLY want me to? Is my answer the end-all of all end-alls? Do you really want me to break down everything? This is how flame wars start. If you don't agree with my logic, or come up with logic of your own-when not emotional-is it that dire to sit at a computer and wait? Tick tock tick tock.....

As with most things in life, it's the "needs of the many..." W's, as pointed out earlier, is basically short turned N's. You're just putting a different bullet on it. THAT right there is logic I can't argue with. Either way, both of our arguments are answered with that same single point. I can admit that. Can you? But if you REALLY REALLY want to argue this, you can PM me like most respectful people.

But you may be going "tick tock tick tock " waiting.

 

 

!

[Far Rock Depot]

[Art Vandelay]

A brief history of Staten Island Rapid Transit rolling stock since the dawn of electricity:

 

1. Originally, they had BMT Standard based cars known as ME-1s or MUE-1s (I have seen documentation for both.) There were 100 of these cars, 90 motors, 10 trailers, and they ran on SI from electrification in 1925 or so until the R44s (Designated MUE-2 or ME-2) were delivered. 5 of the trailers were converted to motors, and 25 motors and the other 5 trailers were transferred to the Subway, Generally running on the Culver-Nassau services(And I believe the Franklin Shuttle, but I am less certain of such).

 

2. In the early 1970s, perhaps the late 1960s, (not sure of the exact year) LIRR transferred a few MP72s to Staten Island, to relieve the old worn fleet. These lasted only a few years before returning to LI upon the delivery of the R44s.

 

3. In 1972-1973 the ME-2, better known as R44SI cars were delivered. These were some of the last R44s built. All but car 402 remain active today. They were rebuilt in the early 1990s, a project which removed many of their FRA features.

 

4. While the SI R44s were being rebuilt, a small number of R46s were transferred to Staten Island. These cars didn't even receive rollsigns and ran with the JFK express logo on the front. These were sent back to NYCT after the overhaul. 12 R44s were also transferred to SIR at about this time. They stayed there and remain on SI to this day, as cars 388-399. (oddly enough, these 12 cars were always different from the balance of the Mainline R44 fleet.)

[Brighton Express]

R44s at SI may look fine, but I believe someone said that it's just a 'band' around the sides It doesn't really solve the issue about the stuff you can't see unless you actually stripped the car down. So, I'll take the word of someone who has worked on those trains to give his opinion on if the R44s are worth salvaging for a few more years. M3s would be a bad idea because the current platforms can hold either 4-5 75' car trains. And some either 1 or 3 cars. So you could run a 4-car M3, but I don't think it will fit all the stations and there are 2 doors at the very ends of the cars vs the 4 sets of doors on the R44s. I don't see LIRR cars working out for SI. SI should get cars similar to subway cars. imo.

 

 

Remember, this would only be something temporary, if a problem were to happen with this R46 transfer. I wouldn't expect any M3 service lasting over 3 or 4 months.

[AndrewJC]

Remember, this would only be something temporary, if a problem were to happen with this R46 transfer. I wouldn't expect any M3 service lasting over 3 or 4 months.

 

 

SIR now has a cab signal system. Any cars that run on SIR first have to be equipped with that system. The process would be costly and would take months if not years.

 

It would not be cost effective to transfer any cars to SIR for a few months or even for a few years. That's why I keep saying that the cars to replace the R44's will most likely be brand new cars, equipped for SIR's needs from day one.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Read carefully again, this is the third one I have caught today. I am sure I wrote the Broadway Express. And I mean the that runs West End Local, Express in rush hours, to Coney Island. I really hate the for taking the Broadway Express, and making the throw the to Whitehall.

 

How I see it, bringing back the is bringing back the . It is unnecessary. We are just pulling up something from the past. I am fine with what we have now, and believe that extra trains should solve the problem.

 

But that's how it was supposed to be! The was the "extra trains" you call for in your post. The was the modern-day local. That was its original purpose and it would most likely have been implemented that way if it hadn't been for the Manhattan Bridge track closures. It wasn't until we had all four bridge tracks back in service that the finally began to serve its original purpose. The was always express until the elimination of the EE train in 1976.

 

The MTA didn't make the full-time local because they liked it better as a local. They did it because they were not able to fit and trains on just two tracks whenever half of the Manhattan Bridge was closed. That is not the case now. They run the local in Manhattan now because they believe the alone at 28th, 23rd, 8th and Prince is not sufficient to handle ridership at those stations.

 

Now getting back on topic, I really wonder how much time it will buy the MTA if they put R46s on SI. How many years do they really have left? At least the R68/R68As are 12-15 years newer and that would give them more time to decide on a type of car that would be best suited for SIRT operations.

[Brighton Express]

SIR now has a cab signal system. Any cars that run on SIR first have to be equipped with that system. The process would be costly and would take months if not years.

 

It would not be cost effective to transfer any cars to SIR for a few months or even for a few years. That's why I keep saying that the cars to replace the R44's will most likely be brand new cars, equipped for SIR's needs from day one.

 

 

The fourth person caught not reading today. I was not saying that M3s would go to Staten Island. I was replying to Far Rock Depot's post about what would happen if the R44s had problems and the R46s did not make it there in time for some reason.

[Grand Concourse]

But you implied that's what they could do, so again why do you always seem to get worked up over someone 'misreading' what you typed? The basic point is: sending old trains to replace the current old trains doesn't make much sense and that's why some of us don't like the idea of R46s being sent there for ~5years and then to be replaced.

[RollOver]

I'd rather have 64 R211s run on SIR than the R46s and then R68s or R68As...

[AndrewJC]

The fourth person caught not reading today. I was not saying that M3s would go to Staten Island. I was replying to Far Rock Depot's post about what would happen if the R44s had problems and the R46s did not make it there in time for some reason.

 

 

You said that the M3's could run in Staten Island for "3-4 months." I responded that M3's, or any other car, could only run in Staten Island after first going through a costly and time-consuming cab signal retrofit process.

 

That's why my bets are on a brand new fleet of cars, equipped for Staten Island's needs from day one, replacing the current R44's.

[Brighton Express]

You said that the M3's could run in Staten Island for "3-4 months." I responded that M3's, or any other car, could only run in Staten Island after first going through a costly and time-consuming cab signal retrofit process.

 

That's why my bets are on a brand new fleet of cars, equipped for Staten Island's needs from day one, replacing the current R44's.

 

 

Please read yet again. 3 to 4 Months is only if a problem is encountered with the R46 shipment.

 

But I can see what you mean about the M3s, they might temporarily use R68s for the problem instead.

[AndrewJC]

Please read yet again. 3 to 4 Months is only if a problem is encountered with the R46 shipment.

 

But I can see what you mean about the M3s, they might temporarily use R68s for the problem instead.

 

 

You're missing my point entirely. Any existing equipment needs to go through an extensive retrofit process before it can run on SIR. If there are delays retrofitting one group of cars, then sending another group of cars over in the short-term doesn't help, because then they also have to be retrofitted!

[East New York]

 

 

Because those trains are dying. The R44's are much younger than those cars, you can't compare.

 

 

R44's are also not as reliable. So you can compare because they didn't outlast the 32's or 42's.

 

 

 

As I've said before, I highly doubt the R46's will ever be going to Staten Island.

 

For one thing, the numbers don't work out. With only 40 of the R179's being in 5 car sets, there certainly aren't enough of them to replace 64 R46's while simultaneously supporting SAS.

 

For another, subway cars can't just hop over to Staten Island and run as is - they need to be equipped with SIR's cab signal system, and performing extensive (and expensive) modifications to a fleet of cars a few years before retirement doesn't make sense. If anything is retrofitted, it will be the R68 or R68A, but I think it's far more likely that Staten Island will get a new fleet of cars along with the R211 order.

 

 

As we all know, anything can change with the MTA, however, why do you all keep saying you don't believe it will happen when it's in the MTA capital plan, public records, and RFP's for the retrofit have already gone out? Next step is contract award.... It's pretty much set in stone unless MTA decides to cancel the RFP....... Which they haven't.

 

Don't take this personal because it is not directed at you, but I have said a billion times that phase 1 of SAS does not need, and will not get R179's. The has an ample amount of cars as it will be operating that portion of the line and will no longer go to Queens. The however is supposed to get 179's.

 

From what I understand, not all of the R44's are supposed to retire until the R211's come online. And the R46 is not a temporary solution as many continue to say. They aren't going anywhere anytime soon, and are set to still be running on the SIR after the R211's are delivered.

[AndrewJC]

As we all know, anything can change with the MTA, however, why do you all keep saying you don't believe it will happen when it's in the MTA capital plan, public records, and RFP's for the retrofit have already gone out? Next step is contract award.... It's pretty much set in stone unless MTA decides to cancel the RFP....... Which they haven't.

 

And where have you seen this RFP?

[Guest Lance]

Well, I can't find the RFP for the order, but according to the MTA's Milestone Report (page 4), the contract for the retrofit is to be awarded sometime early next year.