R46 SIR retrofit Discussion

[Far Rock Depot]

SIR should use some old M3/4/5's, any of those. You'd only need about 2 car trains.

 

As stated earlier in this thread, and many others about SIR operations, its more than just the type of cars needed for SIR. The Signaling system is pretty much the main difference between SIRs cars and NYCTs. Now if you look at the specs of the Railroad fleet, (besides naming 2 different types of caars and one non-existent in your post, those cars are longer, wider and taller and will not fit. Like putting a B dividion car in and IRT tunnel. Plus those types require 750 volts thru the 3rd rail.

On Side note: M3-2nd Gen "Metropolitan" cars used by both LIRR and Metro North(Harlem and Hudson only)

M4-2nd Gen "Cosmopolitan" cars used for New Haven Service which draws power from 3rd rail(south of Pelham) and overhead cantenary(north of Pelham and all of Conn)

M5-a bus route in manhattan

 

smh..

 

im still smh even after this post

[AndrewJC]

Well, to be fair, the R32s are really reliable.

 

 

I love the R32's too, but reliability isn't their strong suit - they have a pretty low MDBF compared to most other NYCT car classes.

 

Hence they are still in service.

 

 

No, they are still in service because serious structural flaws were discovered on the NYCT R44 fleet, so the R32-R42 retirement process was immediately halted on an emergency basis. By the original plan, the R160's were intended to replace all cars between R32 and R42. When that plan abruptly changed, only R32's and R42's were left, so only R32's and R42's were retained. (The R38's and R40's had already been fully retired by then.)

 

So of course the wants to have as new cars as possible but they probably also realize that they need some around until the R211s come just in case or to replace the R46s going to SI.

 

 

Wants to have new cars? I think you're missing the point. If the specialized SIR cab signaling system is installed on new cars, it's an investment amortized over 40-50 years. If the specialized SIR cab signaling system is installed on cars a few years prior to their retirement, it's an even pricier investment (since the cars weren't designed for cab signals from the start) amortized over only 3-4 years. And there are no cars on order to replace the 64 R46's that would need to be transferred to SIR.

 

In any case: the R44s do have rust body frames so it'll cost more than the estimated 12.9 million to keep them around until 2020.

 

 

The SIR R44's are in much better condition than the (former) NYCT R44's. That's why the former are still in service and the latter are not.

 

Aaron Stern, Department Head of NYCT's Office of Management & Budget, says $12.9 million. Vistausss, Anonymous Poster on an Internet Message Board, says more. Sorry, Vistausss, no offense, but I'll take Stern's word over yours.

 

And yes, the SIR is getting the last bunch of 211s so the 44s must live on till after 2020.

 

 

The R211's haven't even been designed yet let alone ordered. Nobody knows the sequence of deliveries yet - it's far too soon. If there's a need for SIR to get its cars first, then SIR will get its cars first.

 

And you find it weird that the keeps the R32s for 56 years but it's normal that rusty frame R44s getting an SMS are staying around after their lifespan ends? You're a weird kinda guy, you know?

 

 

Yeah, I guess it's weird that I don't worship R32's like you do, and that when the MTA places an order for cars specifically to replace the R32's, I assume that the intent is to replace the R32's. How weird is that!

 

and as far as no award for for an R46 refit:

 

 

as you can see, as of September 30 2012, the plan was still on and was documented. If you can show me otherwise, ill take your word. But this is from the MTA. Until i see otherwise....THIS is what im going by.

 

 

As I explained on Saturday, this is a capital budget line item. It can't just vanish - the money needs to be explicitly reallocated elsewhere. Until that happens, this project will remain on the books, with an arbitrary award date, as a placeholder.

 

In any case, three months later, the Department Head of the Office of Management & Budget informed the MTA Board that the current SIR fleet would remain in service until around 2020. I take that to mean that the current SIR fleet will remain in service until around 2020. What do you take it to mean?

 

R32 3838 and Vistausss are both right about what they said about the R32s and the SIR R44s. That means Saint Louis Car Company didn't do well with any of the other cars they built to my experience (R38s, R40s, R42s and R44s). I've always been wondering why the R32s are still running and the other four car types aren't (except the SIR R44s and those 48 R42s). I guess stainless steel is far reliable than carbon steel. I do see your points and reasons. Do note however, that everything will go eventually. I'd like to hear what you'll have to R32 3838. Your posts are very interesting and worth reading (same with Far Rock Depot and AndrewJC). Just elaborating on what you guys said.

 

 

The NYCT R44's had problems and were retired prematurely, but what was wrong with the R38, R40, and R42? They all lasted over 40 years.

[RollOver]

Dude, I've already explain what was wrong the 38's, 40's and 42's prior to their 40+year retirement.

[Vistausss]

I wasn't talking about the reliability of the R32s as in 'MBDF'. I was talking about the cars as a whole. You know, the stainless steel part? The well-built frames? Sure, they might break down every now and then but that doesn't take away the fact that they're still in a really good shape and that's quite impressive given how old they are.

 

And no, I don't worship R32s, I just like 'em because of reasons mentioned above this sentence.

[ttcsubwayfan]

And no, I don't worship R32s, I just like 'em because of reasons mentioned above this sentence.

 

I want to know how on Earth someone worships a subway car, and what qualifies as 'worshiping' a subway car.

 

If it's simply going on and on about how they are some of the greatest things to run on this Earth, the same could be said about NTT foamers. But apparently, that is perfectly acceptable for them to do!

[AndrewJC]

I wasn't talking about the reliability of the R32s as in 'MBDF'. I was talking about the cars as a whole. You know, the stainless steel part? The well-built frames? Sure, they might break down every now and then but that doesn't take away the fact that they're still in a really good shape and that's quite impressive given how old they are.

 

And no, I don't worship R32s, I just like 'em because of reasons mentioned above this sentence.

 

MDBF is the standard measure of railcar reliability. If you're not talking about MDBF, you're probably not talking about reliability. Perhaps you're referring to longevity?

 

I like R32's too. They continue to serve their riders well. But they're becoming increasingly costly to maintain as they age, and it doesn't make sense to keep them going longer then necessary, when newer and more reliable cars are available.

[RollOver]

There's really no limit on how long a train can last in service but when a fleet of cars develop problems with rust, rot or parts becoming hard to maintain, that's when they have to retire from service. Now now, I'm certainly not implying that they should keep the R32s longer than 50 years, I'm just saying that they are in solid good shape. Same with the R46s. Of couse, they will go eventually. And of course, the NYCS R44's frame issues lead to their early retirement which is the only reason why the R32s are still here.

 

Keeping the SIR R44s until 2020 or so is also costly, same with refitting the R46s for SIR. But whatever the does...*shrug* As long as they keep things running okay and having trains move us from here to there, that's all I'm worried about.

[AndrewJC]

Let me clear up what I meant. The contract is supposed to be awarded in or around February, not car retrofit.

 

Great! So we'll be seeing all the details of this supposed contract in a few weeks, when the January board materials are posted online. I'm looking forward!

 

So where is it? Was it left out by mistake? After next week, the Board doesn't meet again until mid-March.

 

Or, perhaps, as the Board was informed last month, the R44's will remain in SIR service until around 2020, and there will be no need to waste money retrofitting anything. As I've been saying all along.

[Far Rock Depot]

The report only states:

 

"With regard to  the  SIR,  President Prendergast  noted that the major 

budgetary initiative is the scheduled maintenance system cycle for the R44 railcar fleet".

 

This does not confirm nor deny any actions regarding the R46 refit. It only states that for 2013 they look to SMS the R44s. As always, things are subjectto change. Plus, i also saw that R44(SI) MDBF dropped between 60 and 80%. Leaving the assumption-key word- as to why it wasnt voted on to one of the following options:

1) it was already approved prior to this meeting and they are looking to procure money for a R44 SMS

2) the whole thing was delayed since the 44s arent in as bad shap as the main line fleet was

3) the matter is still up in the air pending time, performance of the R44 fleet and the money needed for any action.

4) the plan for the refit of the R46s are still on as well as the SMS of the R44s. remember, its the Award thats suppose to happen this year. Not the refit. Componants still have to be procured as well as the manpower and work for said refit. Whos not to say the R44 SMS isnt to hold them down till the R46s are ready? The Document i posted a few posts ago shows up to 2014 and the refit can happen anytime after 2014.

 

It does not state:

1) a definite plan as to the fleet(s) of SIR

2) R44s will run till 2020

3) R44s WONT run till 2020

3) R46 refit is still planned nor canceled.

 

Anything informed to the board is suppose to be mentioned within the minutes. So as far as ALL OF US are concerned, Its still a "wait and see" as it seems its then same "wait and see" for them. The fact that nothing of the plans of refit R46 cars was mentioned seemed to have  led to your assumption-key word again-that the plan was scrapped. When its shown in writing-because everything gets recorded in writing- either in recent months or upcoming months, that the R46 refit was cancelled, i will gladly state you were right no questions asked. But so far, nothing has been shown to prove the cancelled R46 refit. So as far as its shown, nothing has been shown to support any of our claims here. 

 

And its not like the work will happen ASAP. It seems like the news of the refit keeps being taken as an "ASAP" scenario when, like all railcar/work component procurement, it takes a while to get the ball rolling. It could very well be "we are gonna refit the 46s in preparation for the 44s retirement. But to make the 44s last, we are gonna SMS them to give the preparations for refit the time it needs to make it happen. 

[AndrewJC]

The report only states:

 

"With regard to  the  SIR,  President Prendergast  noted that the major 

budgetary initiative is the scheduled maintenance system cycle for the R44 railcar fleet".

 

Who said anything about a report? Before a procurement can be awarded, the Board has to approve it. The Board isn't being asked to approve a procurement to retrofit the R46's. You insisted that the contract to retrofit the R46's was going to be awarded in February, but the next Board meeting isn't until mid-March.

 

Anything informed to the board is suppose to be mentioned within the minutes. So as far as ALL OF US are concerned, Its still a "wait and see" as it seems its then same "wait and see" for them. The fact that nothing of the plans of refit R46 cars was mentioned seemed to have  led to your assumption-key word again-that the plan was scrapped. When its shown in writing-because everything gets recorded in writing- either in recent months or upcoming months, that the R46 refit was cancelled, i will gladly state you were right no questions asked. But so far, nothing has been shown to prove the cancelled R46 refit. So as far as its shown, nothing has been shown to support any of our claims here. 

 

Here's what the Board was informed last month: "The current fleet is comprised of 63 cars now forty years old, which is considered to be the full useful life of these vehicles. It is currently estimated that the replacement of this fleet won’t occur until around 2020. In order to maintain this fleet in a state of good repair to be able to operate safely and reliably, it will be necessary for this fleet to undergo a full maintenance program to be performed mostly at MTA New York City Transit’s subway’s facilities. This program requires three years (2014-2016) of maintenance with an estimated cost of $12.900 million ($4.300 million and 21 cars per year)."

 

There was never an active project to retrofit the R46's. There was only a line item in a budget prepared in 2010. There is nothing to be canceled, but until the funds allocated in that 2010 budget are reallocated to something else, they will continue to be listed under the same line item.

 

(The same 2010 budget included an R179 option order of 80 cars, which would have offset the transfer of 64 R46's to SIR. The actual R179 order did not include any options, so in the end the subway can't give up any R46's without coming up short.)

 

To summarize, here are the facts:

1. 1. The 2010-2014 Capital Plan includes a line item for a retrofit of R46's for SIR service.
2. 2. The same 2010-2014 Capital Plan includes an 80-car option to the R179 order, which could have replaced the 64 R46's transferred to SIR. However, the actual R179 order includes only a 300-car base, and 220 cars (that's 300 - 80) would not be enough to replace the R32's and R42's and also open Second Avenue.
3. 3. All of the R46's will be replaced by the upcoming R211 order. Therefore, any investment in the R46 fleet undertaken at this point will be short-lived.
4. 4. In discussing the R211 order, the NYCT Subway Car Program Progress Update to CPOC dated October 2012 includes "Additional cars for SIR fleet replacement" in the scope.
5. 5. A high-ranking New York City Transit official reported to the MTA Board last month that the current SIR fleet will remain in service until around 2020.
6. 6. As of January 2013, the MTA Board still has not been asked to approve a procurement for an R46 retrofit.

If you want to take item 1 as evidence that 64 R46's are going to be retrofit for SIR very, very soon, be my guest. Alternatively, perhaps it would make more sense to take items 2-6 as evidence that the 2010 plan in item 1 has changed.

 

It's up to you.

[Vistausss]

I agree with Far Rock Depot, but I'm holding out on argumenting until our original source, the reliable East New York, has spoken

[mtattrain]

When will R46 that running on A , R , F will be sent to Staten Island Railway. How old is the R44 etc: age that running into service on Staten Island. That why some say it forgotten borough. The R44 retirement came for Staten Island riders. Just send the R46. Why are they holding not sent the R46 yet. The R44 age is 41 years old.

[Grand Concourse]

Lol, why'd you have to quote that? As for what goes to SI, I give up. No sense in joining that back and forth arguement.

[RollOver]

True. Let's just to see the contract award then we'll talk about that instead.

[realizm]

When will R46 that running on A , R , F will be sent to Staten Island Railway. How old is the R44 etc: age that running into service on Staten Island. That why some say it forgotten borough. The R44 retirement came for Staten Island riders. Just send the R46. Why are they holding not sent the R46 yet. The R44 age is 41 years old.

 

 

Lol, why'd you have to quote that? As for what goes to SI, I give up. No sense in joining that back and forth arguement.

 

For the shock value concerning the level of divine insight and supurb level of writing skill depotofrelax eloquently displays in this subject undergoing in depth discussion.

[mtattrain]

For the shock value concerning the level of divine insight and supurb level of writing skill depotofrelax eloquently displays in this subject undergoing in depth discussion.

^^^^ +infinity blade

[realizm]

LMFAO!! +9000

 

 

[realizm]

Ahem. Good morning depotofrelax. This NYCTF English 101. Please sign in the attendance sheet and print clearly. Sit down. Please pass forward your homework. Today we shall be grading posts made on this forum and review gramatical concepts that will improve your internet posting skills.

 

Thank you.

 

Mr. depotofrelax I have graded your post. Please note my comments and corrections on your work.

 

 

When will R46 that running on A , R , F will be sent to Staten Island Railway.

 

WRONG DAMMIT!

 

The question mark (?) also known as an interrogation point, interrogation mark, question point, query, or eroteme, will need to be inserted at the end of the sentence to indicate the notion that that you are making an inquiry concerning an unknown phenomonon in regards to the topic you will be discussing. In this thread we will be discussing the fate of the R44s which are currently in service on the Staten Island Railway.

 

 

 

How old is the R44 etc: age that running into service on Staten Island.

 

WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?!

 

Again the use of the question mark will reformulate this statement into a question rather than a redundant statement for us to lol at.

 

 

That why some say it forgotten borough.

 

NO YOU DID NOT WRITE THIS SENTENCE CORRECTLY!

 

This is the way to make that same statement:

 

"That is why some say this is the forgotton borough"

 

The R44 retirement came for Staten Island riders.

 

THIS IS ILLOGICAL! GET YOUR DAMN FACTS STRAIGHT!!!

 

Otherwise this is indeed a well prosed sentence. Excellent job Mr. depotofrelax.

 

Just send the R46.

 

 

Good. A simple sentence. +1. Very good.

 

 

Why are they holding not sent the R46 yet.

 

 

WRONG FDAMMIT!

 

Again, you forgot the question mark particle to change the context of the sentence.

 

 

The R44 age is 41 years old.

 

 

WRONG! DO YOU UNDERSTAND SIMPLE MATH?!

 

2013 - 1971 = 42.

 

Therefore we can conclude that the R44 is 42 years old.

 

OMFG WHYYYYYY??

 

 

See me after class Mr. depotofrelax......

[CDTA]

Ahem. Good morning depotofrelax. This NYCTF English 101. Please sign in the attendance sheet and print clearly. Sit down. Please pass forward your homework. Today we shall be grading posts made on this forum and review gramatical concepts that will improve your internet posting skills.

 

Thank you.

 

Mr. depotofrelax I have graded your post. Please note my comments and corrections on your work.

 

 

 

WRONG DAMMIT!

 

The question mark (?) also known as an interrogation point, interrogation mark, question point, query, or eroteme, will need to be inserted at the end of the sentence to indicate the notion that that you are making an inquiry concerning an unknown phenomonon in regards to the topic you will be discussing. In this thread we will be discussing the fate of the R44s which are currently in service on the Staten Island Railway.

 

 

 

 

WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?!

 

Again the use of the question mark will reformulate this statement into a question rather than a redundant statement for us to lol at.

 

 

 

NO YOU DID NOT WRITE THIS SENTENCE CORRECTLY!

 

This is the way to make that same statement:

 

"That is why some say this is the forgotton borough"

 

 

THIS IS ILLOGICAL! GET YOUR DAMN FACTS STRAIGHT!!!

 

Otherwise this is indeed a well prosed sentence. Excellent job Mr. depotofrelax.

 

 

 

Good. A simple sentence. +1. Very good.

 

 

 

 

WRONG FDAMMIT!

 

Again, you forgot the question mark particle to change the context of the sentence.

 

 

 

 

WRONG! DO YOU UNDERSTAND SIMPLE MATH?!

 

2013 - 1971 = 42.

 

Therefore we can conclude that the R44 is 42 years old.

 

OMFG WHYYYYYY??

 

 

See me after class Mr. depotofrelax......

He made that post in 2012.

 

Also, shouldn't you be studying?

[ttcsubwayfan]

In this thread we will be discussing the fate of the R44s which are currently in service on the Staten Island Railway.

 

Besides what CDTA said, we are discussing the fate of the R46s and the possibility of their retrofit for use on the SIR. And what lines will they come from?

 

The A, F and R. Grammar in that sentence fails, but he got the topic right, at least.

[realizm]

He made that post in 2012.

 

Also, shouldn't you be studying?

 

2012 ? lol oops!

 

I have to be in front of the computer anyway clicking away on Win Server 2008 R3/Win 7/8 on a virtual machine. So I got to take breaks, read the news, answer emails, and post away. Only way to do it as I have a very short attention span. Aced the Microsoft MCTS the same way. Got the ebooks down already so I'm just here hitting the practice tests 45 min to an hr at a time. For me it works.

[realizm]

I'm using dumps from  this link: http://www.examcollection.com/

 

It's usually about 90% accurate. So I'll know I'll pass since I took the classes for it already and took alot of lecture exams doing well. You should get into IT yourself. It's hard getting the experience but in the end it pays off big time.

[Grand Concourse]

He made that post in 2012.

 

Also, shouldn't you be studying?

It was only 4 months ago, not like a whole year. Plus why so serious? I enjoyed his post pointing out the absurdity of depot's posts.

[Metro CSW]

This thread is still up and running? Okay.....

[realizm]

He made that post in 2012.

 

Also, shouldn't you be studying?

Off topic but I just passed the CCNA with a 845/1000. Not sure which cert I may go for next but now I have to be interviewed by two network administrsators then the director of the IT department along with my tech supervisor. That's the next step for the promotion. I decided to have a quiet celebration with family. Need to take it easy this weekend. We all need a quiet weekend once in the while for some soul searching and association with family.