The Schoolcar Experience

[MarkGuy]

3 hours ago, beanz said:

PMs is definitely the shittiest tour as far as social life. I was on AMs when I came out and just got switched like a month ago. It's been rough. Midnights I'd have trouble at first but I'm sure I could adjust. If I was midnights I could still go home and sleep and then take my kid to the park or something. With PMs I cant do anything on days I work because my kid is getting online schooling and services in the morning and by the time she's done and eats lunch, boom I gotta get ready to report. Then I get home after she's in bed. 

 

I put in a g2 requesting a change a couple of weeks ago but so far nothing has happened. I mean I get it, this is what it is, but man I'm just glad I'm at least in the A division and didn't get stuck in the B. If I was getting out at 2am at stillwell and then reporting at coney island the next day I would have even less time to see my family. 

Pms would be a vacation for me right now. My social life was actually existant when i had them. Now, nope.

[staffspm1]

Hi all

 

I have been reading this thread with interest as NYC fascinates me. I am a train driver based in Birmingham, UK.

 

Anything I ask here I don't mean as a insult just genuine interest.

I read that you leave training and go on EXTRA EXTRA lists where you can literally be abused and sent anywhere on network at any time without much warning?

How did you unions ever get to this position?

To compare, when you drive trains (or subway trains for that mater) you are based at a specifc depot. That depot has a rota with all the different duties assigned to it. Those duties all start and end at your depot.

We do have spare turns but they have set report times that can only be moved by 2 hours by strict deadlines.

I sign specific types of train on specific routes. I can post my rota if anyone is interested to show. We don't pick a specific job, we do all the jobs.

In bigger depots there is more than 1 rota and seniority see you move into the top rotas with "better" work but otherwise everyone shares the good and bad turns.

Max 12 hours from book on to book off and must have 12 hours rest between booking off and back on again. I read somewhere on here that you don't really have hours limits like that?

FInally, I also read you cannot eat or drink while driving? That is mad. Also, you cannot sleep on MTA property? We have to nap all the time on really early turns and most break points have a quiet room for this purpose.

 

I am not trying to show off our conditions compared to yours just really interested how your system evolved to be as it is?

 

Many thanks

Francis

Chiltern Railways Driver

[staffspm1]

oh (if you are allowed) would anyone consider an exchange of info? I would love to see your rule book etc and diagrams of work and i am happy to send the same back in return.

Obviously with security being what it is, I can send proof of ID to show I am a UK train driver!

[Jericho]

Quote

I read that you leave training and go on EXTRA EXTRA lists where you can literally be abused and sent anywhere on network at any time without much warning?

After schoolcar, I was put on the midnight tour (2200-0400) and given Wednesday and Thursday off; AM is 0400-1159 and PM is 1200-2159. Supposedly we're to call every Friday to find out if this changes for next week, but it has held for the past two months now. Crew Assignment Section (CAS) generally assigns a job two days in advance and usually we know what it is by the end of the day by calling them or looking up the assignment sheets they post online. The phone app only shows what we have up to the next day. At the start of our "week", CAS likely assigns jobs early in the tour (closer to 2200) and at the end of the week a job that is late (closer to 0400), but this is not always the case.

 

We can indeed be sent to any terminal or yard although I suspect for those us that just came out, it's to be more familiar with the line. They do try to send us to the nearest location to make sure we actually report, but if they need to send us far, they will.

 

Quote

Max 12 hours from book on to book off and must have 12 hours rest between booking off and back on again. I read somewhere on here that you don't really have hours limits like that?

We can work up to 16 hours. Usually Rail Control Center/dispatcher knows ahead of time and by the 14th hour they'll have someone ready to take over, but if not we are suppose to call it in before the 14th hour so they can get a replacement crew ready.

We can have 8 hours rest in-between road jobs. 12 hours if we were on the extra board IIRC.

 

Quote

FInally, I also read you cannot eat or drink while driving? That is mad. Also, you cannot sleep on MTA property? We have to nap all the time on really early turns and most break points have a quiet room for this purpose.

Let's just say without going into it much, that the rule is more when things mess up or when the public decides to be a snitch.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Jericho

[staffspm1]

wow that is something else.

we had a rail disaster in 1988 (Clapham Rail Disaster) which the cause was determined to be fatigue and ever since then ANY safety critical job has to be abide by the hours rules I put above.

That is the absolute MAX, and most companies have far shorter hours as negotiated by the union. (my current company has 10h30 max day with no driving in last hour)

Have there not been any fatigue related accidents?

[MarkGuy]

1 hour ago, staffspm1 said:

wow that is something else.

we had a rail disaster in 1988 (Clapham Rail Disaster) which the cause was determined to be fatigue and ever since then ANY safety critical job has to be abide by the hours rules I put above.

That is the absolute MAX, and most companies have far shorter hours as negotiated by the union. (my current company has 10h30 max day with no driving in last hour)

Have there not been any fatigue related accidents?

Oh def. There was an infamous crash on the Williamsburg Bridge back in 1995 attributed to operator fatigue.

That incident is why we have so many timers (signals that either clear succeeding signals up ahead or clear themselves after being approached at a predetermined speed).

 

The union here? Let's just say Mike Quill is turning in his grave now.

 

[nipaaaa]

57 minutes ago, staffspm1 said:

wow that is something else.

we had a rail disaster in 1988 (Clapham Rail Disaster) which the cause was determined to be fatigue and ever since then ANY safety critical job has to be abide by the hours rules I put above.

That is the absolute MAX, and most companies have far shorter hours as negotiated by the union. (my current company has 10h30 max day with no driving in last hour)

Have there not been any fatigue related accidents?

Good question. I consider myself a night owl and stay up late playing video games and whatnot (having fun). However when it comes 4-5 am and "working", I just shut down. When I was fresh out of schoolcar, I was also put in midnights. A typical day for me would be to be on standby as early as 11 pm. Then they give me a full 10 hour job that starts at 1 am until 12 pm. It was absolute madness and I drowned in misery from 4 am onward. Oh and it was a job with 4 roundtrip driving duties too so it was really dangerous but I just bit the bullet.

[staffspm1]

I see. I obviously have only openBVE and actualy passenger travel to experience your timers but they seem to really drag the speed of the system down. I couldn't believe how slow it was when I first visited having been used to London Underground.

I know BVE is only a game but its as close as I will ever get to driving a subway train, and the timers really are hard work. Is it really that bad that you guys are not trusted to drive at the correct speeds?

The UK network has a safety system for speeding but only in a few places where the risk is very high.

[MarkGuy]

1 hour ago, staffspm1 said:

I see. I obviously have only openBVE and actualy passenger travel to experience your timers but they seem to really drag the speed of the system down. I couldn't believe how slow it was when I first visited having been used to London Underground.

I know BVE is only a game but its as close as I will ever get to driving a subway train, and the timers really are hard work. Is it really that bad that you guys are not trusted to drive at the correct speeds?

The UK network has a safety system for speeding but only in a few places where the risk is very high.

Yes, quite a few of our timers don't work as designed. In schoolcar largely for this reason, we're taught to approach them at less than poated speed and let them clear in front of you. 

You especially must take caution with the red automatic/approaches with lunar whites.

(For your reference, an automatic signal is governed by train movements; an approach signal is an interlocking signal-one of three diff types in the system-that is controlled by both train movement and tower operation)

I was recently approaching one of those aforementioned reds with a lunar white at less than posted speed. And it still didn't clear. Even after I stopped it took some time to clear. Since then, I don't challenge timers. Save for a select few ones. 

[Late Clear]

15 hours ago, MarkGuy said:

Yes, quite a few of our timers don't work as designed. In schoolcar largely for this reason, we're taught to approach them at less than poated speed and let them clear in front of you. 

You especially must take caution with the red automatic/approaches with lunar whites.

(For your reference, an automatic signal is governed by train movements; an approach signal is an interlocking signal-one of three diff types in the system-that is controlled by both train movement and tower operation)

I was recently approaching one of those aforementioned reds with a lunar white at less than posted speed. And it still didn't clear. Even after I stopped it took some time to clear. Since then, I don't challenge timers. Save for a select few ones. 

The signals are faulty don't challenge them.  

One shot timers specifically are counter intuitive of optimal operation.  

[MarkGuy]

19 minutes ago, Late Clear said:

The signals are faulty don't challenge them.  

One shot timers specifically are counter intuitive of optimal operation.  

Quoted for emphasis.

Edited July 4, 2020 by MarkGuy
I should add that there are a select few yellow over s timers that clear well in advance. Those are the only ones i approach at posted speed. Never one shots tho.

[staffspm1]

thank you all for your insights.

 

SO when you see ST20, in theory if you are travelling at 20mph it should clear. What is the difference between GT and ST? I have seen signs that have just T on them, what would you do here.

 

Sorry for the rules exams!

[Late Clear]

On 7/4/2020 at 9:39 AM, staffspm1 said:

thank you all for your insights.

 

SO when you see ST20, in theory if you are travelling at 20mph it should clear. What is the difference between GT and ST? I have seen signs that have just T on them, what would you do here.

 

Sorry for the rules exams!

The purpose of station time is to bring you into the station or close to your leader train.  It will only be in effect if you are following a train.  

Grade time is used to enforce speed in area such as a curve or grade.  Once you encounter a "T" you are entering a grade time area.  

These signals are supposed to clear within 25 feet of your train if you are entering the grade time/station time area at the posted speed.  

From your experience you will realize the majority of these signals are flawed and with time you will learn how to navigate these areas.  

As a new train operator you will be extra extra.   I do not suggest you challenge these signals and follow your school car instructions on how to handle these areas.  

[staffspm1]

see in the UK we would never be heading at a red signal expecting it to clear so I don't think I could ever get used to your system. 25 feet is not that far ahead of you to hope its going to clear properly, no wonder you all travel at much reduced speed!

[Late Clear]

2 hours ago, staffspm1 said:

see in the UK we would never be heading at a red signal expecting it to clear so I don't think I could ever get used to your system. 25 feet is not that far ahead of you to hope its going to clear properly, no wonder you all travel at much reduced speed!

Exactly.

[Jericho]

13 hours ago, staffspm1 said:

see in the UK we would never be heading at a red signal expecting it to clear so I don't think I could ever get used to your system. 25 feet is not that far ahead of you to hope its going to clear properly, no wonder you all travel at much reduced speed!

The red signals on time are usually in places where you are getting close to another train in front of you at a station, approaching a home signal and therefore a switch that may not be set for you, or a curve that the train cannot pass too fast. 

Their main objective is safety over speed, but even then as mentioned before, there are timers that are not calibrated properly.

They are design to clear as the train is about to pass the signal, and while this is fine for two shot timers (yellow with lunar white/S/D), the one shot timers (red with lunar white/speed limit) with the stop arm up becomes a precarious thing to do as it may cause the train to go BIE, so people usually let it clear ahead of them.

[staffspm1]

ok I see.

Do your blocks not have safety overlaps?

This is why we can approach reds on metros at whatever speed as there will be an overlap to protect us if we pass it at danger.

I have a saved image but cannot upload it

 

[MarkGuy]

6 hours ago, staffspm1 said:

ok I see.

Do your blocks not have safety overlaps?

This is why we can approach reds on metros at whatever speed as there will be an overlap to protect us if we pass it at danger.

I have a saved image but cannot upload it

 

Yes. There are automatic stop arms in our system that will activate a device under the train, immediately releasing the train's emergency air. This happens if we pass signals at danger.

 

[staffspm1]

similar to our London Underground then.

Is there an overlap after that signal at danger at interlockings to take into account how far you would still travel past the signal whilst you are slowing?

[nipaaaa]

18 hours ago, staffspm1 said:

similar to our London Underground then.

Is there an overlap after that signal at danger at interlockings to take into account how far you would still travel past the signal whilst you are slowing?

It varies with each interlocking. Some have a lot of distance between the signal and switch and some have very short distance maybe like 3 meters at best.

[staffspm1]

Interesting thanks!

[Jericho]

To those of you in the upcoming classes. 

1. In the yard, always expect a low home or home signal before a switch.

2. Read your "iron" and make sure the switch is set in your favor for the wheels on your train to traverse on safely.

This will be important to do for your first yard practical and beyond.

Do not go past if they are red and split a switch, please.

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Jericho

[RTOMan]

On 9/17/2020 at 3:29 PM, Jericho said:

To those of you in the upcoming classes. 

1. In the yard, always expect a low home or home signal before a switch.

2. Read your "iron" and make sure the switch is set in your favor for the wheels on your train to traverse on safely.

This will be important to do for your first yard practical and beyond.

Do not go past if they are red and split a switch, please.

 

Yep Coney Island Yard is the hot spot now it seems...

[train1290]

On 9/17/2020 at 3:29 PM, Jericho said:

To those of you in the upcoming classes. 

1. In the yard, always expect a low home or home signal before a switch.

2. Read your "iron" and make sure the switch is set in your favor for the wheels on your train to traverse on safely.

This will be important to do for your first yard practical and beyond.

Do not go past if they are red and split a switch, please.

 

What does split a switch mean?

[Jericho]

On 10/5/2020 at 7:27 PM, train1290 said:

What does split a switch mean?

Sorry for the late reply. Hopefully the link works; Trailing point switch

Imagine your train is on the left track heading towards the trees. You will notice the switch is actually set for the track on the lower right. The wheels on the left side of your train will go between the rails and thus "split the switch".