stingray11214 Posted December 12, 2012 Share #26 Posted December 12, 2012 The biggest problem with CBTC is that the computer has never understood the parameters of a General Order. Remember, track work is done during operation. If you put in the parameter of a G.O., the system would make the train go 10 MPH from Canarsie to Eighth Ave.! Also remember, there are many systems that are automated, but have a motorman in the controls. Hong Kong, Bucharest, and Singapore comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulrivera Posted December 12, 2012 Share #27 Posted December 12, 2012 Full CBTC? Not in our lifetimes.... Systemwide ATS sounds like a safer bet within our lifetime. Driverless ATO? Not in NYC. Same reason why airliners still have pilots despite the autopilot feature. Systemwide OPTO? That's the union's fight to battle (they almost lost starting with the some years ago.) Boston didn't fight it and now the on-board train conductor has gone the way of the dodo up there. Only platform conductors at selected stations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 12, 2012 Share #28 Posted December 12, 2012 You have made quite a few good points in your rebuttal to the previous posts. I have no doubt that some form of ATO will be implemented by the in the future but you haven't answered my point and that of RTOman. Whom will be held accountable in the event of any mishap that may occur when this system is put in ? I notice you mention a few systems where there is a human aboard the train in case of an unforseen incident. I have been on trains that have been involved in fire, smoke, and blackout conditions. My C/R and I have lead our passengers to safety in every one of those conditions, with no injuries, panic, or loss of life. I noticed you mentioned 12-9s. If you've ever operated a train, car, bus, or train I'm sure you realize that there is no human or computer that can stop a vehicle on a dime to save a person's life, especially one who is determined to end said life, for whatever reason. Someone, not you, mentioned sensors on the track to warn an automated train of objects on the track. In theory that's a sensible feature to have. Imagine said feature being in place when school lets out around some of our illustrious junior or senior high schools. Train senses object on roadbed. Train stops. No movement. If a human is present he/she removes said object, if possible. No human. No movement.Wait for help to remove said object. God forbid if someone has a more sinister idea in mind. Under full ATO a group of determined individuals can bring a line to a standstill. To me the idea of ATO has many benefits as far as the scheduled movement of trains. My problem is the over reliance of the computer at the expense of on the scene human interaction. I must bring up one "apples to oranges" comparison. I don't know the legal systems in effect in the cities which have ATO, full or partial implementation, but here in NY state, with a legislature run by lawyers, with laws written by lawyers, someone must be held accountable. If there is no human element on the scene to blame the , meaning you, the taxpayer, will ultimately pay. The TA lawyers, the lawyers, the NYPD lawyers, the DA's lawyers, even schoolcar instructors, will all say the same thing. I doubt if that can be programmed in software yet. ATO in NYC is a good idea. Has it's time come? I really don't know. Carry on Neither one of them can(New Member lol) if they could they would have already... ArmChair RTO Folks make me laugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceya Posted December 12, 2012 Share #29 Posted December 12, 2012 With the L line and soon to be 7 line be full auto by 2016, Do you think it a good idea to have robots instead of motorman to Drive the trains? personally I don't think its a good idea, with the introduction of the metrocard back then it easy to see why they got rid of most token booth in the city in favor of Metrocard vending machines, leaving the token booth clerk out of a job, I have the feeling it will be the same for motorman to, I know that the motormen will be there at all times in case of emergency if the CBTC doesn't work, but I Feel that the MTA will cut corners but not having a MTA crew on board to save money. while we pay more. But I don't know the future but what do you guys think. MTARegional Bus, A little help for your source to the Wiki. See below. A good read. S/F, CEYA! http://mta.info/mta/pdf/2010-14questions_and_answers_v2.pdf MTA 2010-2014 CAPITAL PROGRAM QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS Page 13 of 25 Flushing Line (21 Stations)CBTC signals will be installed (2009 award) and PA/CIS systems will be upgraded (2013 award) to provide real-time information. Completion is forecast for 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drag0nflamez Posted December 12, 2012 Share #30 Posted December 12, 2012 the TO put the train in motion and still had his head out the window..to me that's too much the TO should be concentrated on operating So? Add in-cab CCTV to trains and stations, so that when at least one car is still in the station, CCTV can be used for this exact purpose... London certainly does it on four lines, and it works perfectly fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 12, 2012 Share #31 Posted December 12, 2012 So? Add in-cab CCTV to trains and stations, so that when at least one car is still in the station, CCTV can be used for this exact purpose... London certainly does it on four lines, and it works perfectly fine. Let me know where you can find the money for it then lets talk.. What works in other places may not work here(even if the idea may be a good one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted December 12, 2012 Share #32 Posted December 12, 2012 What works in other places may not work here(even if the idea may be a good one). That's the catch-all phrase, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 12, 2012 Share #33 Posted December 12, 2012 That's the catch-all phrase, huh? No my personal Opinion, that CRAP they call ATS and CBTC is a joke when better systems was available to put in, but loser Rueter and dumb Kalikow went and got the cheapest chit out there... They arent here to answer for that junk either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjbr40 Posted December 12, 2012 Share #34 Posted December 12, 2012 well we do still need someone on the train in the front car. Did you guys forgot about what happen to WMATA few years ago. A engineer was in front of the train and was applying the emergency brakes when the computer fails to stop at certain spot? Still need somebody in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTARegional Bus Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share #35 Posted December 12, 2012 MTARegional Bus, A little help for your source to the Wiki. See below. A good read. S/F, CEYA! http://mta.info/mta/..._answers_v2.pdf MTA 2010-2014 CAPITAL PROGRAM QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS Page 13 of 25 Flushing Line (21 Stations)CBTC signals will be installed (2009 award) and PA/CIS systems will be upgraded (2013 award) to provide real-time information. Completion is forecast for 2016. Oh I see Thanks man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 12, 2012 Share #36 Posted December 12, 2012 well we do still need someone on the train in the front car. Did you guys forgot about what happen to WMATA few years ago. A engineer was in front of the train and was applying the emergency brakes when the computer fails to stop at certain spot? Still need somebody in case. Nothing is perfect we arent so how can something that is designed by an imperfect being be perfect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin08 Posted December 12, 2012 Share #37 Posted December 12, 2012 That's the catch-all phrase, huh? Its true can you grow Oranges in the Northeast?? Why not it works in Fla The NYC system is unlike any other system, its old to begin with and they are adding new tech to it like patch work, plus NYC has various lines that utilize the same track.. alot of systems I know dont have that..they have either a Red Line..Blue Line etc I totally disagree with ATO like mentioned here the DC Metro crash in 09 the TO was hitting the BIE and the train still didnt stop, and OPTO is a joke I dont care what other systems do, I would like to see a OPTO train where it goes into BIE and the TO has to leave his cab go outside and check the whole train out and you have hundreds of passengers on the train by them self and someone gets hurt WHERES THE ACCOUNTABILITY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMATA Posted December 13, 2012 Share #38 Posted December 13, 2012 Its true can you grow Oranges in the Northeast?? Why not it works in Fla The NYC system is unlike any other system, its old to begin with and they are adding new tech to it like patch work, plus NYC has various lines that utilize the same track.. alot of systems I know dont have that..they have either a Red Line..Blue Line etc I totally disagree with ATO like mentioned here the DC Metro crash in 09 the TO was hitting the BIE and the train still didnt stop, and OPTO is a joke I dont care what other systems do, I would like to see a OPTO train where it goes into BIE and the TO has to leave his cab go outside and check the whole train out and you have hundreds of passengers on the train by them self and someone gets hurt WHERES THE ACCOUNTABILITY Regarding the 2009 Red line accident, the emergency brakes were deployed, but a sharp curve prevented the operator from noticing the stopped train in time. She deployed the brakes about 5 seconds before impact. ATO can work, if maintained properly. You get a smoother train ride, consistent braking, and less wear and tear on the equipment. However, I don't want it at the expense of the operator. Computers can and will fail and you need that human element. I read an article about two near collisions in Virginia just under the Potomac river on the Blue and Orange line some years back (before the '09 crash). The wayside equipment was giving trains incorrect speed readings and failing to detect the presense of stopped trains. The Metrorail operators noticed the problem and were able to avoid a rear-end collison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan05979 Posted December 13, 2012 Share #39 Posted December 13, 2012 Neither one of them can(New Member lol) if they could they would have already... ArmChair RTO Folks make me laugh I laugh at the ones who are looking in from the outside and have no clue what we deal with on the inside. That ato cbtc nonsense is the biggest piece of sh*t the MTA ever spent money on. AND STOP SAYING "DRIVING TRAINS" YOU MAKE YOURSELF SOUND VERY STUPID. AND YOU CALL YOURSELF "RAILFANS" ITS OPERATE - (O-P-E-R-A-T-E) LETS SAY IT TOGETHER OPERATE! YOU OPERATE A TRAIN, YOU FLY A PLANE YOU DRIVE A TRUCK YOU OPERATE A BULLDOZER...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Railking Posted December 13, 2012 Share #40 Posted December 13, 2012 Lmao D!!!! CBTC is interesting, but after seeing that collision n the photos of it from the 2009 incident down in DC I really wouldn't want it here. This system is just too large in my opinion but who am I??? I laugh at the ones who are looking in from the outside and have no clue what we deal with on the inside. That ato cbtc nonsense is the biggest piece of sh*t the MTA ever spent money on. AND STOP SAYING "DRIVING TRAINS" YOU MAKE YOURSELF SOUND VERY STUPID. AND YOU CALL YOURSELF "RAILFANS" ITS OPERATE - (O-P-E-R-A-T-E) LETS SAY IT TOGETHER OPERATE! YOU OPERATE A TRAIN, YOU FLY A PLANE YOU DRIVE A TRUCK YOU OPERATE A BULLDOZER...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 13, 2012 Share #41 Posted December 13, 2012 I laugh at the ones who are looking in from the outside and have no clue what we deal with on the inside. That ato cbtc nonsense is the biggest piece of sh*t the MTA ever spent money on. AND STOP SAYING "DRIVING TRAINS" YOU MAKE YOURSELF SOUND VERY STUPID. AND YOU CALL YOURSELF "RAILFANS" ITS OPERATE - (O-P-E-R-A-T-E) LETS SAY IT TOGETHER OPERATE! YOU OPERATE A TRAIN, YOU FLY A PLANE YOU DRIVE A TRUCK YOU OPERATE A BULLDOZER...... Sooo tell us how you really feel.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTARegional Bus Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share #42 Posted December 13, 2012 I laugh at the ones who are looking in from the outside and have no clue what we deal with on the inside. That ato cbtc nonsense is the biggest piece of sh*t the MTA ever spent money on. AND STOP SAYING "DRIVING TRAINS" YOU MAKE YOURSELF SOUND VERY STUPID. AND YOU CALL YOURSELF "RAILFANS" ITS OPERATE - (O-P-E-R-A-T-E) LETS SAY IT TOGETHER OPERATE! YOU OPERATE A TRAIN, YOU FLY A PLANE YOU DRIVE A TRUCK YOU OPERATE A BULLDOZER...... Yes Mr know it all Yes just like if you do surgery you don't say operation LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan05979 Posted December 13, 2012 Share #43 Posted December 13, 2012 I'm not trying to be a Mr. know it all. Your on this page because you like trains and buses. You guys know the whole system better the people who work down here but somehow keep saying childish shit like "driving a train" I'm just saying its annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 13, 2012 Share #44 Posted December 13, 2012 He was just joking Dan its all good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussieinuk Posted December 13, 2012 Share #45 Posted December 13, 2012 Here in London the Docklands Light Railway (DLR) is fully automated. The London Underground is expected to be fully automated within 10 years. Is any of the NYC Subway automated yet? I am not sure I agree with it. I have ridden on the DLR many times, and while it is fun to sit up front and "play driver" there is always that uneasy feeling, especially when you see another train in front of you on the same line, and then suddenly it will switch tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTARegional Bus Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share #46 Posted December 13, 2012 He was just joking Dan its all good... Yeah don't worry about. It cool Beside am a train fan that doesn't take this stuff to seriously, although some do. I was taking to this fan at the bus fair and like all serious and said. ''THERE NOT CALL BUS DRIVERS THERE BUS OPERATORS'' Ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted December 13, 2012 Share #47 Posted December 13, 2012 Its true can you grow Oranges in the Northeast?? Why not it works in Fla The NYC system is unlike any other system, its old to begin with and they are adding new tech to it like patch work, plus NYC has various lines that utilize the same track.. alot of systems I know dont have that..they have either a Red Line..Blue Line etc I totally disagree with ATO like mentioned here the DC Metro crash in 09 the TO was hitting the BIE and the train still didnt stop, and OPTO is a joke I dont care what other systems do, I would like to see a OPTO train where it goes into BIE and the TO has to leave his cab go outside and check the whole train out and you have hundreds of passengers on the train by them self and someone gets hurt WHERES THE ACCOUNTABILITY So explain to me why all of the things you mentioned above make it not work? Accountability isn't a problem… it's just that the accountable people happen to not be on the train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 13, 2012 Share #48 Posted December 13, 2012 So explain to me why all of the things you mentioned above make it not work? Accountability isn't a problem… it's just that the accountable people happen to not be on the train. Thats why there will always be somebody in front .... You are welcome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMATA Posted December 14, 2012 Share #49 Posted December 14, 2012 Lmao D!!!! CBTC is interesting, but after seeing that collision n the photos of it from the 2009 incident down in DC I really wouldn't want it here. This system is just too large in my opinion but who am I??? Don't worry about the photos or what happened in 2009. What happened in 2009 occured as a direct result of a poor safety culture at WMATA. They failed to properly maintain the ATO equipment and a deadly collision ensued. It was inevitable, unfortunately. The equipment involved also happened to be oldest cars in the fleet (Rohr 1000 series), which date back to 1973. They were not built to withstand a front-end collision. CBTC and ATO are different. WMATA used ATO (the Red line will see it return in 2013) and the L currently uses CBTC. You can read about the differences in the link below... http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=221657 Again, ATO (and CBTC) can work. I watched it work successfully for more than 15 years in DC until engineers stopped properly maintaining the equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowblock Posted December 14, 2012 Share #50 Posted December 14, 2012 This whole thread is giving me a MAJOR headache so I haven't read every word, but some of you "know-it-all" foamers have really need to get your heads on straight. Everything here is done for a reason, and most of it won't make sense to you until you actually work here. So quit coming up with all these lame-ass ideas that would never fly in the real world and go back to chasing down R142As where they don't belong. Moderators, is there any chance this forum can add a Fantasy Ideas section, so that those of us who don't want to weave through this crap can avoid it and those who do can try to top each other to their content? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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