Controversial NYPD 'stop and frisk' policy goes on trial in NY

[SoSpectacular]

Yeah but there are accusations that they actually are told that they need to do a certain amount of stop and frisks, which is indirectly a quota though, of course these things are said off of the record.... Of course it's illegal because then that would mean that people are being stopped and frisked simply to fill the quotas and not so much because they were considered suspicious...

 

It is very much like a quota indeed. Loopholes. Amazing little things, aren't they?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It is very much like a quota indeed. Loopholes. Amazing little things, aren't they?

lol... Indeed...

[Turbo19]

OK. I understand the arguments CenSin, Turbo19, B35 via Church, Joe, SoSpectacular, you Via Garibaldi 8 and myself are presenting here. Yes in theory it makes sense that police officers will target areas with high crime. Straightforward common sense. Also it is understood that higher rates of crime occurs in poorer neighborhoods. Indeed we have good police officers and bad police officers alike. And to boot yes we can all see now that we generally have racists or reverse racists in all ethnic groups with issues, respectively. We all came to these conclusions as of this point in this discussion, so IMHO these are moot points now.

 

But now this raises even more questions as the debate gets hotter. In NYC (and throughout the US in general), why is it that more blacks and Latinos are being stopped and frisked then when they make up only 50% or less of the population in NYC? Why is it that by far the higher percentage of the population in the prisons are persons of color? We all have our theories and opinions on this based on our different experiences, backgrounds and social status, etc. I think this needs to be discussed. Even as we may all have different views on this particular I think if we can make this an intelligent talking point, we could all come closer to an understanding and agreement as to how this controversy came about out of a relatively new NYPD crime combating tactic in recent years.

Well as obviously shown here there is the arguement the Blacks and Latinos are unfairly profiled by law enforcement and there's the arguement faulting perception and I suppose one could counter argue and fault their backgroung and/or upbringing.

 

 

Well I think the answer to that is pretty simple... The environment in which these particular blacks and Latinos grow up in facilitates a behavior that says you're supposed to do this this and this, none of which involves getting an education, getting a good paying job and so on.  I've heard that supposedly dark skin black men for example are less likely to be hired even if they are qualified simply because they're seen as dangerous and not smart.  This was something I've also seen on a CNN special. I think it was called "Black In America" or something. In one segment, they show two black guys that were brothers... One was light skinned with more mixed features and the other one was dark skinned with what you could call more black features.  Didn't really resemble each other IMO, but any who, the light skinned guy was the complete opposite of his brother.  He had a good job, never had any problems with the law, etc.  The dark skinned one on the other hand was constantly in jail and could never hold a job.

 

Apparently there's a perception in the job market that dark skinned black men esp. are more threatening physically and so they're usually less likely to get certain jobs, especially managerial jobs.  In my office building, I can literally count the amount of black men I see.  Maybe 3 if that out of a building with tons of companies (and that doesn't include building personnel like the security guards which are for the most part black of course, but again those positions pay peanuts) and when you do see a black guy in the building, he's usually a delivery guy or in some position that pays poorly.  I personally believe there's some truth to this claim as sometimes I do feel as if I've had an advantage if you will being mixed.  In my old job out of an office of about 70 - 80 employees we only had one black guy in entire office and before he came for a while there were no black males in the office at all.  We had a few Latinos but that was it.  The rest were white.  The managers were mainly Irish and Italian (typical in the construction field) and I actually started out temping there but my boss who was also Italian decided to hire and keep me on since he knew I was also Italian.  To be honest with you, I've never really had a problem getting jobs.  At my current job, they had interviewed many candidates and I was told I had the job after the first interview, which I thought was a fluke but they were serious.  Now granted I was qualified, but I do wonder sometimes if I was a dark skinned black guy if I would've been hired as quickly or at all.

 

As for the Latinos, well a lot of it is education in their case.  Some come from really poor homes and endure a cycle that's hard to break.  When you're poor, you aren't exposed to certain things that middle class and upper middle class folks are, let alone wealthy folks and that can keep the cycle going if there's no push to change things.  Blacks and Latinos still perform poorly in school overall compared to whites and Asians here in the city and this is a trend that's environmental and economical as well.  The Asians push their children to achieve and perform.  Whites on the other hand do the same or some reward their children with gifts and such.  Being a mixed kid, I'd say I received a mixture of both... The parents wanted me to do well and pushed me but I also was rather spoiled being an only child and grew up in a middle class family so for the most part I wasn't a brat but if I asked for money for something I usually got it.

 

That's another thing though... When you have money you can fix certain problems... White families for example, if the kid isn't doing that well, the well off families can pay to ensure that the kid gets the best tutor and that I can attest to from experience, as I am hired at $40.00 - $60.00 a session in some cases to provide tutoring when I have availability.  Poor families don't have this advantage and so there's another set back if you will. 

 

There's also a stigma at least in the black community from what I understand that if you're doing well you're a sell out, so that's another issue too.  I'd say it could apply to a degree in the Latino community too but to a lesser extent.  

 

So you have these things going on and it isn't hard to see why blacks and Latinos have high incarceration rates.  Whites and Asians fight amongst each other also, but they stick together when it really boils down to it and help each other out in most cases.  Less so in the other communities...

If you really want to diverge into that side of the disscusssion I'm sure there are many examples of people achieving much more than what has been dictated by these stereotypes.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well as obviously shown here there is the arguement the Blacks and Latinos are unfairly profiled by law enforcement and there's the arguement faulting perception and I suppose one could counter argue and fault their backgroung and/or upbringing.

 

 

If you really want to diverge into that side of the disscusssion I'm sure there are many examples of people achieving much more than what has been dictated by these stereotypes.

Well of course, but we're specifically talking about blacks and Latinos that underachieve and end up incarcerated, not all blacks and Latinos.

[CenSin]

Has anyone thought that this system might be sort of like a "perpetual motion" machine? Certain people are likely to be incarcerated because they grow up in a culture that pretty much expects them to be incarcerated. Where do we stop the process from looping?

[Grand Concourse]

Has anyone thought that this system might be sort of like a "perpetual motion" machine? Certain people are likely to be incarcerated because they grow up in a culture that pretty much expects them to be incarcerated. Where do we stop the process from looping?

Which goes back to my earlier point about how the communities themselves needs to start getting the word out to fix up the problems from within than to expect the cops to be 'prison wardens'. The cycle won't end till someone or both parties decides to be more willing to be tolerant of each other than to be suspicious of each other. Not saying this will make a huge change, but it can't hurt if the community were to be more active in weeding out the gangs than to stay quiet and let the cops 'take care of it'.

[Joe]

Responsibility for your own actions goes a long way.  Don't want to step up to the plate?  Don't come crying to me when life sucks.

[realizm]

Which goes back to my earlier point about how the communities themselves needs to start getting the word out to fix up the problems from within than to expect the cops to be 'prison wardens'. The cycle won't end till someone or both parties decides to be more willing to be tolerant of each other than to be suspicious of each other. Not saying this will make a huge change, but it can't hurt if the community were to be more active in weeding out the gangs than to stay quiet and let the cops 'take care of it'.

 

But that comes back to the point I made earlier, that many will be afraid to stand up to these gangs. As I stated before it can bring bloody repercussions as the violent gangs will try to retaliate. It will have to be a concerted and major community effort in numbers in support of ridding the neighborhoods of these gangs. In the 90's this has happened exactly so in a very violent way at the hands of a gang war between the Latin Kings and the Bloods. Many civilians who tried to get in the mix died in the crossfire.

[Grand Concourse]

It should be a combination of deploying cops at 'hotbed' areas along with tips from community members together. I don't expect every person to take on the gangs by themselves, but they need to start somewhere than to just blame the cops because the crime is too rampant to bother. I mean is it so bad we need the military to go enter housing complexes to weed out the gangs? May as well put the troops to use if we are pulling out of the middle east.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

We could also blame our local officials for creating environments like this.  When I first moved to Riverdale and had to move from Staten Island I had to go through Manhattan and eventually through Harlem.  My buddy Diego who was helping me and I were talking about how there were SO MANY housing projects clustered together for BLOCKS over there... We eventually got lost in Harlem and had to stop there I was freaking out with being surrounded by so many housing projects because it's all you see around you as if no other neighborhood exists... Eventually we started chatting about why they would build all of them together like that and he said well keeps 'em all together and makes it easier to contain em.  I thought about it and it's true, but at the same time it creates an environment that's like a neighborhood within a neighborhood.  There always seems to be sirens flaring in that part of Harlem when we pass by on the express bus.  It's like ugh, let's just get the hell through here and not get stuck here.

[realizm]

Has anyone thought that this system might be sort of like a "perpetual motion" machine? Certain people are likely to be incarcerated because they grow up in a culture that pretty much expects them to be incarcerated. Where do we stop the process from looping?

 

I would imagine one of  the keys is a  better economy which includes better education opportunities. Via Garibaldi 8 touched upon it in post # 73:

 

As for the Latinos, well a lot of it is education in their case.  Some come from really poor homes and endure a cycle that's hard to break.  When you're poor, you aren't exposed to certain things that middle class and upper middle class folks are, let alone wealthy folks and that can keep the cycle going if there's no push to change things.  

 

That's another thing though... When you have money you can fix certain problems... White families for example, if the kid isn't doing that well, the well off families can pay to ensure that the kid gets the best tutor and that I can attest to from experience, as I am hired at $40.00 - $60.00 a session in some cases to provide tutoring when I have availability.  Poor families don't have this advantage and so there's another set back if you will. 

 

Adding to this now CenSin, I think an aspect of your observation is what is coined by economists as the cycle of poverty. Poor families can become trapped in poverty for generations, without the necessary capital to stay out of or and escape the cycle of poverty.

 

It becomes a vicious cycle in that it puts them in certain circumstances specifically a result of being in poverty, in itself, becoming almost impossible to break.  The reason for this is because such ones do not have the tools necessary to get out of poverty, such as monetary resources, education or connections. People struck by poverty experience disadvantages as a result of their poverty, which in turn increases their poverty. Which creates psychological effects on the individuals and the breakdown of families, and overall trapped in the cycle. Life is harder for them in every single way. Many as a result simply give up whole young sad enough and resort to illegal means to mane money or are stuck in low paying jobs throughout  their lives. 

 

This is not exclusive to the US of course. This is happening all over the world. However the reason we see are seeing  racial dynamics play a part here is because we are living in a multicultural country structured around the capitalism model with the problems it brings. It all started with poverty overall in the rural and urban areas of the US alike (Which historically Jewish, Italian, German and Irish immigrants fell victim to, the same abject poverty from that ever widening gap between the rich and the poor due to flaws again in the capitalism model ) along with the persecution of people of color stemming from  the eras of African slavery then the Chinese Exclusion Act and the Afro-American apartheid era in the 20th Century, and more. It can get pretty deep.

[realizm]

* Correction: Many as a result simply give up to the psychological pressures sad enough and resort to illegal means to make money or are stuck in low paying jobs throughout  their lives. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Here is something that relates very much to what I was talking about with the clusters of housing projects and the mayoral race and stop and frisk...

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/mayoral-candidates-forum-focuses-on-crime-and-stop-and-frisk

[realizm]

Here is something that relates very much to what I was talking about with the clusters of housing projects and the mayoral race and stop and frisk...

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/mayoral-candidates-forum-focuses-on-crime-and-stop-and-frisk

 

From the article:

 

Comptroller Liu wants to focus on more than driving down numbers. His strategies would include additional police officers financed through lower overtime costs and reduced claims against the city. He would also focus on greater economic development and ending the stop, question and frisk practice.

 

Thompson’s strategies would include a return to community policing which received audience applause. He also would like more officers and a focus on the youth.

 

Lhota would include additional community involvement, transparency and increased sensitivity and training

 

I agree with Mr. Thompson and Lhota on their proposals. That makes sense. Cooperative efforts between police officers and residents in high crime areas will do much good. Increased sensitivity training will help police officers to use better discretion when patrolling high crime areas. It will develop a better sense of trust between residents and police officers.

 

I have mixed feelings with Mr. Liu's proposals. Cutbacks in OT I'm sure will not go well with the NYPD police officers at all. Greater economic development in the crime ridden areas, could be a plus. But then ethical issues concerning gentrification comes up because with greater economic development comes skyrocketing real estate rates and higher  rent that the poor may not be able to afford. He should consider the housing situation in his proposal.

 

Again from the article:

 

Speaker Quinn's strategies would include additional police and ensuring that law enforcement is comprised of the correct components including prosecutors and the Medical Examiner. She also cited better coordination between the various groups allowing for the sharing of information.

 

Ms. Quinn's proposals I find unnerving. Just increasing the police force in numbers and making supposed reforms to the judicial system for the convenience of prosecutors with nothing else will obviously not solve the problem in itself. Just extending Bloomberg's current policies with this proposal which is obviously not working as well as it should where it relates to public relations issues with the NYPD. This is not a police state where martial law needs to be established, this is the City of New York Ms. Quinn!

[Minato ku]

All this controversy about the "stop and frisk" remind me the random "identity control" made by the police in France wich obviously happen more often to young minorities (black and arab) than to white people.

 

 

France police unlike some other police force in europe is the not the friendly neighborhood police. It is mostly a "strong police who fight crime". The police has very few contact with the population, except that for arrestations, controls and in crime scenes.

The random check is used by the police to identify a potential criminal.

What ? You will say and you are right. This doesn't fight crime, it annoys just many people, some who may be a potential criminal but the police can't fight crime before the crime happen.

Worse this increase the tension between the population and the police and obviously the random check are never random.

They have always some criteras who make someone look a more potential criminal than an other one.

[MHV9218]

Responsibility for your own actions goes a long way.  Don't want to step up to the plate?  Don't come crying to me when life sucks.

 

What is with all these vague parables like they have anything to do with what's being talked about? 

 

You want words to live by, here're some: don't racially profile.

[Joe]

Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it irrelevant.  For someone who claims to be so enlightened, you're one intolerant goon.

[MHV9218]

Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it irrelevant.  For someone who claims to be so enlightened, you're one intolerant goon.

 

I don't claim anything except for my name. Solid use of 'goon,' though, I like it.

[GojiMet86]

Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it irrelevant.  For someone who claims to be so enlightened, you're one intolerant goon.

 

But profiling people because they're black or Latino, as if being black or Latino automatically makes one inherently a criminal, is a hell of a lot worse than not respecting someone else's opinion, as you claim MHV to be. And nowhere did he claim to be enlightened. You're creating a problem where there is none.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

But profiling people because they're black or Latino, as if being black or Latino automatically makes one inherently a criminal, is a hell of a lot worse than not respecting someone else's opinion, as you claim MHV to be. And nowhere did he claim to be enlightened. You're creating a problem where there is none.

That's what's being debated here.... As I've said before they commit the most crime here in the city, esp. in poorer areas, where stop and frisk is more common. The argument of racial profiling would hold more weight if blacks and Latinos were stopped and frisked disproportionately to the amount of crime they commit.  Unfortunately that is not the case, so the argument that could be made is that they are being targeted because they commit the most crime, not necessarily because they're black or Latino. If it were simply because they're minorities, then the question would then be why aren't other minorities stopped and frisked with the same amount of frequency like Asians??

 

As for MVH, he doesn't have to say it anywhere.  Anyone that disagrees with his point of view is the foolish one, thus making him the "enlightened" one.

[realizm]

As for MVH, he doesn't have to say it anywhere.  Anyone that disagrees with his point of view is the foolish one, thus making him the "enlightened" one.

 

Then all I can collectively say is that this is something all of us here really need to work out. I understand it can be difficult debating over hot button topics at times without tempers flaring, particularly over issues like this, but it would not be conducive to the discussion for all of us to take things personally and start holding grudges from other previously held heated debates on the subforums.

[MHV9218]

As for MVH, he doesn't have to say it anywhere.  Anyone that disagrees with his point of view is the foolish one, thus making him the "enlightened" one.

 

Have you never seen anybody with an opinion? I happen to disagree with your opinion, but I haven't called you foolish, nor have I called myself enlightened. It's just a matter of disagreement, don't put words in anybody's mouth.

[Phantom909]

on a personal note i wish stop and frisk was done 19 years ago because maybe the cops would`ve gotten the gun off the streets that was used  to murder my youngest brother peter at the corner of atlantic ave and logan street in east new york on july 25, 1994. i also wish, since to this day nobody has ever been arrested for it, someone from that neighborhood wouldve given up the savage , and before some members go crazy at my use of that word, i dont know if he was white, black, latino, asian or whatever it doesnt matter my brother`s murderer is a savage.

 

my point is this, if the residents of these neighborhoods grew a pair and and took back their neighborhoods to get all the trash off the streets, instead of protecting the trash, the police wouldnt have to do stop and frisk. the blame should not be on the police, the blame belongs to the scum criminals and the community that protects them, period.

 

joe, 

[realizm]

on a personal note i wish stop and frisk was done 19 years ago because maybe the cops would`ve gotten the gun off the streets that was used  to murder my youngest brother peter at the corner of atlantic ave and logan street in east new york on july 25, 1994. i also wish, since to this day nobody has ever been arrested for it, someone from that neighborhood wouldve given up the savage , and before some members go crazy at my use of that word, i dont know if he was white, black, latino, asian or whatever it doesnt matter my brother`s murderer is a savage.

 

my point is this, if the residents of these neighborhoods grew a pair and and took back their neighborhoods to get all the trash off the streets, instead of protecting the trash, the police wouldnt have to do stop and frisk. the blame should not be on the police, the blame belongs to the scum criminals and the community that protects them, period.

 

joe, 

 

I'm very sorry to hear this. I can sincerely understand why you are making this stance in this post. I can somewhat relate to this even as I did not have to go through what you had in the loss of your younger brother. I threw this out there in another post in another thread, but I'll restate it here: One of my closest friends during my HS years was shot to death one year later in the summer of 1995, shot in the back of the head in his own basement, in his own house, execution style, during a robbery in Jamaica, Queens. It was gang related. The case remains unsolved. His mother suffered a heart attack when this happened.

 

I give you and your family my condolences in this loss of life.

[Phantom909]

I'm very sorry to hear this. I can sincerely understand why you are making this stance in this post. I can somewhat relate to this even as I did not have to go through what you had in the loss of your younger brother. I threw this out there in another post in another thread, but I'll restate it here: One of my closest friends during my HS years was shot to death one year later in the summer of 1995, shot in the back of the head in his own basement, in his own house, execution style, during a robbery in Jamaica, Queens. It was gang related. The case remains unsolved. His mother suffered a heart attack when this happened.

 

I give you and your family my condolences in this loss of life.

 

thank you and my condolences to you, and his family. i feel terrible for his mother, at least in my case, both of my parents had already passed away before my brother was murdered so they didnt have to live through it, but i will never forget the hurt and pain that i had having to go to the morgue to identify his body and every tuesday now that i have to go to brooklyn for my job and pass the spot where it happened, it never gets easy.

 

joe