#7 to NJ or lower manhattan.

[bobtehpanda]

@AndrewJC: Thanks, yes, I meant the S89 to Bayonne. But apparently bobtehpanda didn't get that... Anyhow, NJ doesn't have to pay taxes for the . If that would be the case, then why aren't they paying taxes for the S89 to Bayonne?

 

@bobtehpanda: Aside from the S89 thing, you didn't even read my other post, unlike realizm who did. I said OTHER source than the . Who says some politician might not see the benefit in 20 years? Or some company? Or the state? A lot can happen in 20 years and maybe someone is willing to fund the for a 12th Ave extension.

 

The MTA (or any other organization trying to fund it) will most likely turn to the FTA for funding, because subway costs in New York are ridiculously high. The costs of the 7 Line Extension are already $1B/km, and that was only achieved by the city completely getting rid of one station. In any case, that's funded by 13 million sq ft of development - it's probably not easily replicable anywhere else.

 

With the cost of subway extensions here, it's doubtful that private enterprise would be able to do it alone, and both the City and State have massive levels of debt (debt under Bloomberg has doubled from $55B to $100B). So the outlook is not very rosy.

[realizm]

Edit: Andrew's point is correct. The 63rd St connector inself is not the original part of the 1968 MTA program for action. That was a decision made later on and implemented by the capital construction oversight committee as it was realized that the original purpose of the 63rd St tubes for feeding traffic into the QBL bypass will never be realized, hence the change and modification of the corridor to connect with the IND QBL itself as a plan b sort of speak. I accidentally misread the post.

[realizm]

The line doesn't warrant CBTC. Yes, ridership is growing exponentially for that line, but for the sake of Queens riders, CBTC would be much more useful and financially sound serving more people on QBlvd.

Add congestion to that reason. Conditions on the ROW past Jackson Heights through the 53rd St corridor is substandard. We should also be talking about the Lexington Ave line, I think that even with the SAS congestion and overcrowding will still continue to be a problem on the Lex. I will explain why later.

[Q67 via Borden]

Well I definitely like hearing ideas of expanding the NYC subway system. It never looked complete to me and the fact is it never was. There were so many provisions made that just never got through.

 

But regarding on which extension I think should happen, it's the one to Secaucus. The tunnel that carries all NJT trains that operate out of Penn Station and most Amtrak lines that serve NYC is at capacity not to mention it's a two track tunnel (hard to imagine it could hold that many trains, even though commuter rail lines are usually very infrequent. Just because the NYC Subway is to help people get around NYC doesn't mean that it has to be limited to staying in NYC. DC Metro for example serves areas way outside of DC yet it's purpose is to still help people get around DC so NYC shouldn't be any different. The NJT trains are overcrowded too with people going to Secaucus. The extension would relieve crowding on NJT trains and also provide Queens with direct service into New Jersey. Although the extension can still go through Hell's Kitchen btw.

[Minato ku]

I have already say this in other threads and I know that this difficult and almost impossible to do but I think that New York City metropolitan area should have a single metropolitan transport organisation autority.

With a metropolitan transport organisation autority, taxes for the transport would be collected all over the metropolitan area and transports would be planned with a much wider view.

New York City and New Jersey cannot ignore each other, for a good development of the city.

 

[Around the Horn]

I have already say this in other threads and I know that this difficult and almost impossible to do but I think that New York City metropolitan area should have a single metropolitan transport organisation autority.

With a metropolitan transport organisation autority, taxes for the transport would be collected all over the metropolitan area and transports would be planned with a much wider view.

New York City and New Jersey cannot ignore each other, for a good development of the city.

That is one of the best ideas I have ever read on this forums,and I totally agree.A SEPTA-like agency serving NY-NJ-Conn. like SEPTA serves PA-NJ-DE is an idea which both suprisingly and not suprisingly doesnt come up often but makes sense.Such a agency could create interstate routes between the 3 states like how SEPTA as I previously mentioned serves its 3 states...Kudos to you for thinking of that...

[bobtehpanda]

I have already say this in other threads and I know that this difficult and almost impossible to do but I think that New York City metropolitan area should have a single metropolitan transport organisation autority.

With a metropolitan transport organisation autority, taxes for the transport would be collected all over the metropolitan area and transports would be planned with a much wider view.

New York City and New Jersey cannot ignore each other, for a good development of the city.

 

Unfortunately, that makes way too much sense. They can't even agree on a unifying farecard.

[Quill Depot]

PATH's job is west of Hudson. It should go to around 23rd and stop there, IMO. It would be the best for the overcrowded Penn Station, and it would have high ridership due to the Javits Center. 23rd is a good terminal, as it wouldn't be that crowded of a stop.

[Eric B]

The line doesn't warrant CBTC. Yes, ridership is growing exponentially for that line, but for the sake of Queens riders, CBTC would be much more useful and financially sound serving more people on QBlvd.

You would think the didn't either, but they chose it because of its total isolation. then, the was next, also totally isolated, though now busier and with an express service. So it seemed they were inching toward the mainlines. So I had always said that the would be the next advancement, being less isolated, connected to mainline routes on both ends, which sometimes detour down the line.

But now, they're jumping straight into the busiest mainline. As the leads into this line, you again would think it would be the starting point leading into CBTC on the QBL.

[AndrewJC]

You would think the didn't either, but they chose it because of its total isolation. then, the was next, also totally isolated, though now busier and with an express service. So it seemed they were inching toward the mainlines. So I had always said that the would be the next advancement, being less isolated, connected to mainline routes on both ends, which sometimes detour down the line.

But now, they're jumping straight into the busiest mainline. As the leads into this line, you again would think it would be the starting point leading into CBTC on the QBL.

 

The first two lines are the testbeds, with unique CBTC systems that won't be compatible with any other line, so they had to be isolated.

 

Before QBL CBTC starts, the NYCT CBTC standard will be finalized, and all CBTC vendors will have to comply with it. There's no need for isolation anymore - all of the remaining CBTC systems will play nice together.

[GreatOne2k]

Work out a free transfer deal between MTA and PATH first before extending the to NJ. The smart card pilot had some free transfers between some NYCT buses, The Lexington Avenue line and PATH, so it can be done again.

[Vistausss]

I don't think a unified authority will do that much good. I've rarely seen such things in all of my lifetime and the ones I've seen either didn't turn out great or turned out only slightly better. Better cooperation between companies is what's needed. If they can't do it on their own, maybe they just need to let someone from the outside in e.g. a 3rd party who will help them. That's what IMHO works better.

[Minato ku]

When I speak of a single organisation autority, this doesn't mean that there is only a single transport company.

It means that all those transportation companies would have a higher autority above them.

[Around the Horn]

When I speak of a single organisation autority, this doesn't mean that there is only a single transport company.

It means that all those transportation companies would have a higher autority above them.

Like how the RTA is higher than CTA,Pace and Metra in Chicago?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Like how the RTA is higher than CTA,Pace and Metra in Chicago?

But we have already have that here. It's called the MTA. Chicago's RTA functions very much like our MTA does. CTA, Pace and Metra are their equivalents to our NYC Transit, LIRR and Metro-North. One major difference is that Pace operates most of the suburban Chicago bus routes, while our suburban counties are responsible for their own bus routes. Another difference is that all of the commuter rail service to the Chicago suburbs in Illinois are administered by Metra, while our NY State/CT suburbs have two separately administrated commuter rail systems - LIRR and Metro-North (the MTA did have a plan to merge them, but that got torpedoed pretty quickly).

 

That is one of the best ideas I have ever read on this forums,and I totally agree.A SEPTA-like agency serving NY-NJ-Conn. like SEPTA serves PA-NJ-DE is an idea which both suprisingly and not suprisingly doesnt come up often but makes sense.Such a agency could create interstate routes between the 3 states like how SEPTA as I previously mentioned serves its 3 states...Kudos to you for thinking of that...

Yes, but SEPTA is not that agency. It does serve PA, NJ and DE, but just barely serves NJ and DE. There are just two Regional Rail stops in NJ - Trenton and West Trenton - and they're on separate Regional (commuter) Rail lines. SEPTA regional rail goes a little deeper into Delaware, but only because they pay SEPTA to do so, much like how Connecticut pays Metro-North to serve the NYC suburbs in Fairfield and western New Haven counties. That's it. All other SEPTA service runs only in Philadelphia and its Pennsylvania suburbs.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Extension down 12th Ave to Hell's Kitchen where the clubs are, which is a popular hangout area that has the potential for real estate residential & commercial development. The ARC project that Gov Christie killed was the perfect option for cross state travel to NJ to be used by NJT and Amtrak, and should be put back on the table. In my opinion, IRT clearance cars would not be able to handle the traffic if it was sent to NJ. Better the ARC tunnels from 34th street to Secacaus NJ as once proposed with capacity for railroad cars for the sake of capacity and high rate of passenger ridership, and the sent further down 12th ave.

ARC was a very expensive project that was not going to create all that much more space for NJ transit trains. The biggest problem with ARC was the space needed for the additional trains. The planned terminal station was to be only six tracks with stubs, so they could not continue into the East River tunnels and lay over in the Sunnyside Yards, like the current NJT trains can. Trains would have had to reverse out of the station on the track they came in on and go back to Jersey to lay over during middays. That would have certainly affected how many revenue runs NJT could have operated in the new tunnels. The deep-level terminal also would have been connected to Penn Station only via lengthy pedestrian connections, so if you needed to get to the subway or LIRR, you had to leave the station. It had to be deep-tunnel, because the projects planners didn't want to deal with the prospect of displacing residents and businesses to build the new tunnels under the West Side to get to the existing Penn Station. Amtrak couldn't use the deep-tunnel, stub-ended station either. The lines that would have benefited the most from ARC would have been the Main and Bergen County Lines because they could get directly into Manhattan for the first time. The other NJT routes would have more than likely still been largely confined to the current Penn Station. So would Amtrak. Say what you will about the NYC Subway going into NJ, but quite a lot of people in Jersey would be able to get over to the East Side without multiple transfers if the were extended to Secaucus. And not necessarily by taking a NJT commuter train to Secaucus for the 7.

[bobtehpanda]

ARC was a very expensive project that was not going to create all that much more space for NJ transit trains. The biggest problem with ARC was the space needed for the additional trains. The planned terminal station was to be only six tracks with stubs, so they could not continue into the East River tunnels and lay over in the Sunnyside Yards, like the current NJT trains can. Trains would have had to reverse out of the station on the track they came in on and go back to Jersey to lay over during middays. That would have certainly affected how many revenue runs NJT could have operated in the new tunnels. The deep-level terminal also would have been connected to Penn Station only via lengthy pedestrian connections, so if you needed to get to the subway or LIRR, you had to leave the station. It had to be deep-tunnel, because the projects planners didn't want to deal with the prospect of displacing residents and businesses to build the new tunnels under the West Side to get to the existing Penn Station. Amtrak couldn't use the deep-tunnel, stub-ended station either. The lines that would have benefited the most from ARC would have been the Main and Bergen County Lines because they could get directly into Manhattan for the first time. The other NJT routes would have more than likely still been largely confined to the current Penn Station. So would Amtrak. Say what you will about the NYC Subway going into NJ, but quite a lot of people in Jersey would be able to get over to the East Side without multiple transfers if the were extended to Secaucus. And not necessarily by taking a NJT commuter train to Secaucus for the 7.

 

Thank god for Gateway, eh? It's closer to the surface and designed to connect across the East River. Too bad it costs a heck of a lot more due to all the property acquisition involved for Penn Station South.

 

The problem with extending the is that the 7 was never designed to handle heavy peak flows from two directions. 5th Av and GCT are already congested beyond belief due to the heavy flows at the stations (and Times Square may become as congested once trains no longer terminate and wait there). Since all Manhattan stations are deep-level island platforms, any sort of reengineering of stairs or platforms would be ridiculously disruptive, to say nothing of the cost.

[Vistausss]

@Minato Ku: I was also talking about authorities in my post. I'm not a supporter of your idea but that's just my humble opinion

[RtrainBlues]

Even if they would only extend the #7 train to just over the NJ state line, it would be an enormous help.  No need to go all the way to Secaucus if it's that much more expensive.  They'd get a ton of extra revenue from people who are now forced to take gypsy cabs who charge $3.00 just to cross the river.  Just like people get dropped off in cars at Lily Pond Avenue to take the S53 bus (and save the $15.00 Verrazano cash toll), people would be dropped off at the NJ line for the #7 train (and save the Lincoln Tunnel toll and traffic).

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Thank god for Gateway, eh? It's closer to the surface and designed to connect across the East River. Too bad it costs a heck of a lot more due to all the property acquisition involved for Penn Station South.

 

The problem with extending the is that the 7 was never designed to handle heavy peak flows from two directions. 5th Av and GCT are already congested beyond belief due to the heavy flows at the stations (and Times Square may become as congested once trains no longer terminate and wait there). Since all Manhattan stations are deep-level island platforms, any sort of reengineering of stairs or platforms would be ridiculously disruptive, to say nothing of the cost.

That may very well be true about the , but then again much of the IRT lines today carry heavy peak flows that they were never designed to carry. 77th St on the is probably one of the worst offenders for that.

 

As for Gateway, part of the problem with that project is going to be all the property acquisition it calls for. Will property owners go for it, or will they challenge the city and/or Amtrak in court? And being that Gateway is Amtrak's project, they are focusing on running more Amtrak service through those tunnels. NJT isn't expected to get many more slots for additional trains and what they do get will likely go to the lines already running into Penn. Maybe some Raritan Valley trains will be extended into Penn via Gateway if it happens. Main, Bergen County and Pascack Valley trains won't be going into Penn, because the connecting loop track that was a part of ARC is not a part of Gateway.

[bobtehpanda]

That may very well be true about the , but then again much of the IRT lines today carry heavy peak flows that they were never designed to carry. 77th St on the is probably one of the worst offenders for that.

 

As for Gateway, part of the problem with that project is going to be all the property acquisition it calls for. Will property owners go for it, or will they challenge the city and/or Amtrak in court? And being that Gateway is Amtrak's project, they are focusing on running more Amtrak service through those tunnels. NJT isn't expected to get many more slots for additional trains and what they do get will likely go to the lines already running into Penn. Maybe some Raritan Valley trains will be extended into Penn via Gateway if it happens. Main, Bergen County and Pascack Valley trains won't be going into Penn, because the connecting loop track that was a part of ARC is not a part of Gateway.

 

To be fairly honest with you, those spots that Amtrak is pining for are currently parking lots. If they can sell the air rights in a way that doesn't look as god awful as Penn Plaza or the future Transbay Terminal, it could work.

 

The particular problem with the is that it's both narrow and deep-level. The stairways connecting to street level are not only narrow, but they're long, and are a much bigger bottleneck than they are at subsurface IRT stations. The MTA is forecasting hundreds of millions of dollars in needed improvements should Midtown East rezoning go ahead - imagine how bad it would get if the were linked to New Jersey.

[Grand Concourse]

I'll say this again: there's no point in extending the 7 and putting the burden on the MTA. The Path's Hoboken branch could be extended to Manhattan and being the PA, you have both states covering the cost. I dunno how much of the 7 would overlap the existing rail lines there or if it would be a unique service, but I just think that if they really need such a line, it should be a Path extension instead of a subway one. There are parts of Brooklyn and Queens (and even the Bronx) that could all use a line extension or new branch line before there's a justification of a subway extension to another state.

 

For ARC, the problem was that it was all on NJ. If it was a bi-state funded project, I think it would've been continued regardless of what Christie thinks as I'd imagine NY would approve the project. Obviously getting federal funding would've been better via stimulus $ for infrastructure improvements/expansion.

[Vistausss]

If Gateway does come through let's hope they do include a loop track for Pascack Valley trains. It's really weird being the only MNRR line run by NJT and worse that it doesn't even come close to Manhattan...

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I'll say this again: there's no point in extending the 7 and putting the burden on the MTA. The Path's Hoboken branch could be extended to Manhattan and being the PA, you have both states covering the cost. I dunno how much of the 7 would overlap the existing rail lines there or if it would be a unique service, but I just think that if they really need such a line, it should be a Path extension instead of a subway one. There are parts of Brooklyn and Queens (and even the Bronx) that could all use a line extension or new branch line before there's a justification of a subway extension to another state.

 

For ARC, the problem was that it was all on NJ. If it was a bi-state funded project, I think it would've been continued regardless of what Christie thinks as I'd imagine NY would approve the project. Obviously getting federal funding would've been better via stimulus $ for infrastructure improvements/expansion.

Path already runs from Hoboken to Manhattan - to 33rd St seven days a week and to WTC Monday-Friday. Those services are already very well-used. Can Path run from Manhattan to Secaucus via Hoboken? I'd like to think it can. I'd be more in favor of that than a extension. But I imagine it would have to enter Manhattan separately from the other Midtown Path services. And the Port Authority is only thinking about extending Path to Newark Airport and extending its existing stations on the Newark Line to hold 10-car trains. They aren't thinking about crossing the Hudson in a third location (maybe they should be? Hello, Port Authority...).

 

Make no mistake, another trans-Hudson crossing is needed. You have to remember, it's not just about commuter rail traffic between Jersey and Manhattan. There's a lot of car and bus traffic across the Hudson too and it's only expected to increase. The Lincoln and Holland tunnels and Manhattan's streets already can't keep up with what's already coming through. How are they going to manage a significant increase in that traffic in the coming years? Another auto tunnel is not the answer because that will only increase the car/bus traffic on Manhattan streets. We don't want that to happen. The biggest winners from ARC would have been Main, Pascack Valley and Bergen County NJT riders, who would have a direct ride to Midtown (unless they work in the 40s or 50s in which a subway transfer would still be necessary). There would have been very little space (if any) for additional NJT Northeast Corridor or North Jersey Coast trains or any Raritan Valley trains with only six stub-ended tracks and nowhere in Manhattan to store out-of-service trains, so they wouldn't have fared too well with ARC. NEC/NJCL and (maybe) Raritan and Morris & Essex NJT riders will benefit from Gateway, but that will be more for Amtrak than anyone else. Riders from the other NJT lines will still need to change at Secaucus or Hoboken. And NJT Bus and other NJ bus commuters would still have to deal with the same slow rides into Midtown and the PABT via the Lincoln Tunnel or a transfer to the Path train. At least a new Path line or extension would help them out and could cut back on the huge number of buses going to and from the PABT and via the Lincoln Tunnel.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

There are parts of Brooklyn and Queens (and even the Bronx) that could all use a line extension or new branch line before there's a justification of a subway extension to another state.

Of course there are and those areas must not be overlooked. But where is the will to extend the subway in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx? Why aren't City Hall, the MTA or Albany showing any real commitment to doing that? Will that change when DeBlasio or Lhota takes over City Hall on January 1? At least the MTA seems committed (at least according to the latest capital plan) to doing the whole 2nd Ave Subway from Lex/125th to Hanover Sq. I would absolutely not advocate the city spend its money to extend the or any other subway line into Jersey. But if Christie is willing to let his state pay for it and contribute money to the MTA for the operation of NYC subways in Jersey (like Connecticut does with the New Haven Line), I wouldn't have a problem with it. I wouldn't expect him to pay for any in-city extensions of the subway. But so far, I don't see our own politicians willing to do so either.