Bronx Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[checkmatechamp13]

Kind of pressed for time right now, so I'ma comment on what I really want to do so on, instead of the whole post...

 

The Bx32....

 

Split it in half.... Have buses from Mott Haven end at River park towers.... And have buses from University/174th end at 242nd (via University, via Sedgwick, etc.)... Carve a niche along B'way somewhere north of the subway so that buses could turn around better; much like what was done for the Bx9 up @ 262nd... Basically, the Bx32 northern split would be the "Bronx only" version of the Bx3 (and then some, to connect w/ the bee lines)....

 

What I would ideally like to do w/ the Bx3 is have buses running to 231st/Riverdale av (via kingsbridge > B'way > 230th > Johnson > 231st), with short turns (and/or alternate buses) ending at the hospital.....

 

So for clarification, you'd remove service under the Jerome el north of Burnside, and have the Bx3 terminate around where the Bx18 makes that weird loop heading eastbound?

[Q43 Floral Park]

Can you really blame them though?   Even with the few SX BxM3 trips, the BxM18 makes far fewer stops.  I would imagine some folks just go down to 230th and Broadway or park near Tibbett and 230th and get on there.  You're at 56th and 5th in two stops.  Huge difference vs. the SX BxM3 buses.

 

One of my biggest issues with having the BxM18 make stops in Midtown was that it would potentially cut into the BxM3 market.

 

I'm not blaming them, just saying it might not be the wisest decision... The BxM3 SX run has a straight shot onto the Deegan before the Bxm18 (now that it skips Bailey Av) and has less riders (I've seen a few drop-off at 96 st but most start dropping off at 79 or below). Also if either BxM3 is in front of the BxM18 (~10 blocks) before hitting 96 St, it's going to stay in front all the down or close to it especially with traffic .  So I would imagine having to leave earlier and take the time to drive, park, and wait for a crowded Bxm18 would negate any benefits. 

 

 

So for clarification, you'd remove service under the Jerome el north of Burnside, and have the Bx3 terminate around where the Bx18 makes that weird loop heading eastbound?

 

Yes to the service cut on Jerome but I'm reading:

Bx3: Riverdale/231- GW Bridge via Marble Hill & University 

Bx32N: VCP/242-University/174 via Sedgwick & University

Bx32S: River Park Towers- Mott Haven

 

If that's the case I'll say surprisingly a decent amount of people (elderly especially) ride the Bx3 from the Heights through Sedgwick and VA riders want Jerome over University for some reason. But the last one would be viable if it was an extension of the Bx18 S/E.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

One of my biggest issues with having the BxM18 make stops in Midtown was that it would potentially cut into the BxM3 market.

 

I'm not blaming them, just saying it might not be the wisest decision... The BxM3 SX run has a straight shot onto the Deegan before the Bxm18 (now that it skips Bailey Av) and has less riders (I've seen a few drop-off at 96 st but most start dropping off at 79 or below). Also if either BxM3 is in front of the BxM18 (~10 blocks) before hitting 96 St, it's going to stay in front all the down or close to it especially with traffic .  So I would imagine having to leave earlier and take the time to drive, park, and wait for a crowded Bxm18 would negate any benefits. 

 

 

What do you mean would?? The BxM18 already makes stops in Midtown.  Southbound, 56th & 5th and 43rd & 5th are two of the biggest stops.  It's the Midtown folks that are really using the BxM18, moreso than Downtown folks.  There used to be more folks getting off Downtown, but the traffic has been so bad with the cheap gas prices that some folks have given up and are using other alternatives.  I was talking with one of the regular BxM18 riders last night that gets on with me, and she told me about a couple she knows another couple that takes the express bus to and from Spuyten Duyvil and they complain about how slow service has become.  They put up with it even though they could take Metro-North.  She on the other hand takes the very first BxM1 bus in otherwise I think she would be taking Metro-North or some other set up.

[IAlam]

What do you mean would?? The BxM18 already makes stops in Midtown.  Southbound, 56th & 5th and 43rd & 5th are two of the biggest stops.  It's the Midtown folks that are really using the BxM18, moreso than Downtown folks.  There used to be more folks getting off Downtown, but the traffic has been so bad with the cheap gas prices that some folks have given up and are using other alternatives.  I was talking with one of the regular BxM18 riders last night that gets on with me, and she told me about a couple she knows another couple that takes the express bus to and from Spuyten Duyvil and they complain about how slow service has become.  They put up with it even though they could take Metro-North.  She on the other hand takes the very first BxM1 bus in otherwise I think she would be taking Metro-North or some other set up.

wouldn't the BXM18 be better off it if it took the FDR? Although it about the same travel time PM, the AM trip could save roughly 10-15 minutes 

[Q43 Floral Park]

What do you mean would?? 

 

In regards to the period before the service was implemented. We can't really say for sure if it did shift ridership.  That being said I don't see how the time spent commuting to the BxM18 would be better than an empty SX run right in front of your door.

 

 

wouldn't the BXM18 be better off it if it took the FDR? Although it about the same travel time PM, the AM trip could save roughly 10-15 minutes 

 

To get from 230 St to 5av or to get from 26 St - Lower Manhattan? In the former case probably would be better off in the AM. The latter case the Downtown ridership isn't distributed where it can run the Loop like the BM1-5/QM7/8/11/25.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

wouldn't the BXM18 be better off it if it took the FDR? Although it about the same travel time PM, the AM trip could save roughly 10-15 minutes 

 

 

In regards to the period before the service was implemented. We can't really say for sure if it did shift ridership.  That being said I don't see how the time spent commuting to the BxM18 would be better than an empty SX run right in front of your door.

 

 

 

To get from 230 St to 5av or to get from 26 St - Lower Manhattan? In the former case probably would be better off in the AM. The latter case the Downtown ridership isn't distributed where it can run the Loop like the BM1-5/QM7/8/11/25.

The BxM18 is structured similarly to the X1 and X10, with the exception being that it doesn't stop from North of Canal to 29th street.  It faces the same traffic as these routes do from 56th street on, and the same traffic that the BxM buses face that run down 5th & up Madison.  The current route is the most direct.  The issue IMO is that 5th can really get backed up on some days (there are times that I have taken BxM1 Super Express buses that have beat the last BxM18 to Midtown) and Northbound, Canal Street can cause issues, but as Q43 mentioned, a loop would be pointless, and even more time consuming than the current set up.  The BxM18 is set up to serve the more white collar Wall Street types of folks (i.e. stockbrokers, etc.), but more people in Midtown use it as a quicker alternative to the BxM1 and BxM2 since a lot of those folks work in between 6th and Lex (5th, Madison, Park, etc.) where the BxM18 makes more sense.  The only problem is some of them aren't aware of the BxM18 running in Midtown.  A lady I know works on Madison and had no idea the BxM18 stopped on Madison until she was walking one day and saw the bus stop.  Prior to that she had been taking the BxM1 and to and from her office.

 

Even with the delays Northbound, a lot of people that I see on the BxM1 and BxM2 just track the BxM18 buses on BusTime from their office.  As the bus makes their way North, they pack up and walk over to Madison.  It still beats taking the BxM1 and BxM2 since the last stop is 56th and Madison.

 

As for the BxM3 SX trips, I agree that it's hard to determine, but at the same time, going via Henry Hudson Parkway gives the WAYY more alternatives than the BxM3 could ever provide them.  Think about it.... Whenever one line is a mess, I just put on BusTime, see how each line is doing and then walk to the one with the least back ups.   At night, usually the BxM1 is the most reliable, as 3rd Avenue tends to back up less than 6th and Madison, so I will get a Super Express BxM1, as those are usually very prompt in terms of leaving on time and fast, provided there isn't a ton of traffic on the Deegan.

[Q43 Floral Park]

I think MTA needs to look at extending the Bx12 SBS Westbound hours until 11pm... Caught a local run at PBP around 1030 and it had to leave people at every stop through University Av. Also more short turns on the Bx3/36 at Washington Bridge... there was a 25 minute gap in service on both routes early. 

 

 

The BxM18 is structured similarly to the X1 and X10, with the exception being that it doesn't stop from North of Canal to 29th street. 

 

As for the BxM3 SX trips, I agree that it's hard to determine, but at the same time, going via Henry Hudson Parkway gives the WAYY more alternatives than the BxM3 could ever provide them.  Think about it.... 

 

I always wondered if a stop on 14 St would be doable...

 

I enjoy walking a great deal but if I hypothetically lived east of Fieldston and north of 242, starting my morning with a 10-15 min walk up hilly terrain to HHE is the last thing I'd be doing. If I wanted Lex or 7th Av sure I'd see a reason to go up there but we were comparing the Bxm3 Sx vs. Bxm18 to 5 Av. So I'd come out the house and go to Bway knowing the BxM3 SX, will be on time and empty to the point where I can take up 2 seats rather than walk/drive, wait in line and probably have to share a seat on the BxM18.

[BreeddekalbL]

would any of the BXM services warrant 24 hour service?

[IAlam]

would any of the BXM services warrant 24 hour service?

potential the BXM7 it currently has the longest operating hours 

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

I think MTA needs to look at extending the Bx12 SBS Westbound hours until 11pm... Caught a local run at PBP around 1030 and it had to leave people at every stop through University Av. Also more short turns on the Bx3/36 at Washington Bridge... there was a 25 minute gap in service on both routes early. 

 

 

 

I always wondered if a stop on 14 St would be doable...

 

I enjoy walking a great deal but if I hypothetically lived east of Fieldston and north of 242, starting my morning with a 10-15 min walk up hilly terrain to HHE is the last thing I'd be doing. If I wanted Lex or 7th Av sure I'd see a reason to go up there but we were comparing the Bxm3 Sx vs. Bxm18 to 5 Av. So I'd come out the house and go to Bway knowing the BxM3 SX, will be on time and empty to the point where I can take up 2 seats rather than walk/drive, wait in line and probably have to share a seat on the BxM18.

What is needed is for the Bx12 local to start pulling more of the weight so all we need to do there is add more local service. Usage out of Bay Plaza is quite strong on Friday evenings and I have proposed the Bx12 Select use a separate Friday schedule to account for this. There's no way on a route with almost 50k riders per weekday the local should be carrying only around 13k. I'm tried of seeing Sardine Bus Service rolling around while most of the local trips clearly have room on board for more passengers. 

[GreatOne2k]

Any bus leaving Bay Plaza after a 24 minute gap would be crowded after 10pm.

[B35 via Church]

I am tutoring up in Westchester (emergency for Regents prep.) and am using the BxM11.

Was shocked to see how many people come down from Westchester to use the bus...

Considering the in the Bronx, can you blame them? Lol......

 

The people on Bway really don't have to care or advocate because the Bx9s extremely frequent and quick on that section.....

I find that Bx9's tend to crawl to the subway station more often than not (from 262nd)...

 

But aside from that, my point is that the Riverdalians on that side of the neighborhood don't care for the Bx9 in-particular....Take Woodlawn riders for example... Even though most of those folks don't ride past Woodlawn (and very rarely past Montefiore), they care about "their" Bx34.... I don't know if that illustrates the point better, but that's what I'm getting at... The quote-unquote possessiveness, or w/e you wanna call it.....

 

Implicating that since the route doesn't have problems (for those patrons), they don't have to care for the route, or advocate for anything regarding the route is a mindset I can't concur with.... To me, that comes pretty close to indifference, and it that's the case, nothing (well, except for the bee lines) should be running north of 242nd ....

 

So for clarification, you'd remove service under the Jerome el north of Burnside, and have the Bx3 terminate around where the Bx18 makes that weird loop heading eastbound?

1] North of Tremont....

 

2] Yeah, just south of the immediate area.... To be specific, where the short turn Bx36's end at....

 

side note: Why the destination signs on those Bx36's read Grant-174th is beyond me.... Grant spills into University around the bridge approach... 174th is well north of that point.... If they don't want to put University - 174th, then I'd rather just put 174th than Grant-174th because it's just.... wrong.... It's not even one of those debatable things (like, does the B3 end in Bensonhurst or Bath Beach)....

 

Yes to the service cut on Jerome but I'm reading:

 

Bx3: Riverdale/231- GW Bridge via Marble Hill & University 

Bx32N: VCP/242-University/174 via Sedgwick & University

Bx32S: River Park Towers- Mott Haven

 

If that's the case I'll say surprisingly a decent amount of people (elderly especially) ride the Bx3 from the Heights through Sedgwick and VA riders want Jerome over University for some reason. But the last one would be viable if it was an extension of the Bx18 S/E.

Riders on the Bx3 from Washington Heights have a tendency to empty out around the college.... Anyone else riding within the Bronx from the 1st stop in the Bronx don't really ride it past Kingsbridge/Sedgwick.... The Bx3 portion north of Kingsbridge (rd) feels like a whole 'nother route... Those riders (from 238th ) barely ride along University, and if they do, it's not for too long a stint.... Those folks seem to want the Bx9 more than anything (unlike Riverdalians... Lol), b/c there's a lot of turnover b/w the Bx3 & the Bx9 - to the point where I have seen Bx3's completely empty out @ Kingsbridge rd from the south.... This is one reason I (in that plan of mine you reference) I would short turn Bx3's inside VA Hospital.....

 

You are right that the VA hospital riders want Jerome over University.... I have a very strong suspicion that it's b/c Jerome (and Morris) are both (unofficial) GC bypasses (which I'll admit, has nothing to do w/ University).... I find that folks seeking the hospital ride from as far south as, well, Mott Haven.... The problem is though, ridership to VA hospital isn't all too strong (for the Bx32 anyway)....

 

Lastly, I've never been all that fond of eliminating or combining the Bx18 with anything, but I suppose combining it w/ such a (southern) split of the Bx32 would be an idea to discuss, I guess..... My thing is, unlike the Bx18 that doesn't really terminate at where Sedgwick meets Undercliff (and can get away with being a loop route that takes all it's layover time at 170th/GC), you would have to have a full time terminal on the northern end of a route starting from Mott Haven.....

 

What is needed is for the Bx12 local to start pulling more of the weight so all we need to do there is add more local service. Usage out of Bay Plaza is quite strong on Friday evenings and I have proposed the Bx12 Select use a separate Friday schedule to account for this. There's no way on a route with almost 50k riders per weekday the local should be carrying only around 13k. I'm tried of seeing Sardine Bus Service rolling around while most of the local trips clearly have room on board for more passengers. 

You're the Bx12 aficionado around here, how would you go about taking riders off the SBS & onto the locals?

 

Only thing that comes to mind is having the locals run to Bay Plaza (from Inwood) & end all SBS service at Pelham Bay Park....

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

 

 

You're the Bx12 aficionado around here, how would you go about taking riders off the SBS & onto the locals?

 

Only thing that comes to mind is having the locals run to Bay Plaza (from Inwood) & end all SBS service at Pelham Bay Park....

My answer is at this point, there is nothing that can be done to that end which would make much of any sense. Two ideas that i've thought of are... 

a) Removing artics from the local so frequencies are more comparable to SBS and more riders flock to the local because wait times aren't an issue

This ends up not really working out in practice because if such an idea works then SBS trips may lose enough passengers to have service reduced and the local becomes the dominant player in terms of BPH. It's bad enough that PM Rush SBS service was reduced this Spring as is. 

b) Run local service into Bay Plaza eastbound starting from 7 pm rather than 9 pm. 

This would result in the MTA "overserving" Co-op City passengers unless a significant amount of SBS service around that time ended at PBP. 

 

Other ideas run into these problems

a) Ridership levels and patterns near the terminals of the route would not favor running local buses in place of limited stop ones. Several negative things could happen if locals were to run the full distance...

- Overall ridership declines since less frequent service is being provided in Inwood and Co-op City.

- Inwood and Co-op City passengers make a two seat trip out of Bx12 local service (if provided that only) transferring to the SBS at first chance. Not enough of the riders sit through the trip on either end to beef up local frequencies beyond current levels allowing ample opportunity for the decline previously mentioned to occur.

- Dwell times and traffic on I-95 and the University Heights Bridge (the slowest portion of the rush hour Bx12 to be honest) cause local service to decline in reliability. The SBS already has major spacing issues the last thing we need is to pass them on to the local. 

 

b) There is a sense among those in our hobby (and likely the agency as well) that the Bx12 SBS is doing so well at accumulating passengers that it should be left alone.

I bring this up because I read a Facebook post in a transit discussion group there where someone asked whether the SBS routes should be given service increases as a means of attracting more riders. It just happened that the SBS routes were listed in the original post with the Bx12 being left out. When I made a comment on that OP comes and replies that the 12 was left off by intention since he felt the route was already performing well and any boost would be overkill. When I mention that overcrowding is a persistent problem with the Bx12 Select someone else comes on and defends OP claiming that more service would not address the issue since there would just be more people lining up to use the added service. This dude says that current service levels should be frequent enough to satisfy the regular users so it should be left at that. 

 

c) There is a natural preference for limited stop service on high ridership bus corridors. It's hard to picture how many riders the local should be realistically be pulling from the Select before the overall route becomes negatively effected. 

[MysteriousBtrain]

New route for those who would miss the Bx5 to orchard:

Bx58 LTD between Orchard beach and Barrett point Park, main streets of operation are Tiffany Street and Bruckner Blvd. Route runs summers only. Stops include:

Orchard Beach

Pelham Bay Park

Jarvis Av/CC Rd

Crosby Av

Tremont Av

Brush Av

Castle Hill Av

WP road

Rosedale Av

Bronx River Av

Hunts Point av

Then all stops to Baretto Point via southern Blvd and Tiffany Street.

 

Weekend service runs every 10-15 min. If ridership qualifies for weekday service, weekday frequencies are 20-30 min

Edited June 13, 2016 by ShadeJay

[checkmatechamp13]

My answer is at this point, there is nothing that can be done to that end which would make much of any sense. Two ideas that i've thought of are... 

a) Removing artics from the local so frequencies are more comparable to SBS and more riders flock to the local because wait times aren't an issue

This ends up not really working out in practice because if such an idea works then SBS trips may lose enough passengers to have service reduced and the local becomes the dominant player in terms of BPH. It's bad enough that PM Rush SBS service was reduced this Spring as is. 

 

b) There is a sense among those in our hobby (and likely the agency as well) that the Bx12 SBS is doing so well at accumulating passengers that it should be left alone.

I bring this up because I read a Facebook post in a transit discussion group there where someone asked whether the SBS routes should be given service increases as a means of attracting more riders. It just happened that the SBS routes were listed in the original post with the Bx12 being left out. When I made a comment on that OP comes and replies that the 12 was left off by intention since he felt the route was already performing well and any boost would be overkill. When I mention that overcrowding is a persistent problem with the Bx12 Select someone else comes on and defends OP claiming that more service would not address the issue since there would just be more people lining up to use the added service. This dude says that current service levels should be frequent enough to satisfy the regular users so it should be left at that. 

 

a) I don't see how you could ever have more BPH on the local than the +SBS+. The local ridership is currently at around 13k. Even if it doubled (and those riders were all "stolen" from the SBS, both of which are highly unlikely), that means that local & SBS ridership would be about equal, which would imply that the frequencies should be roughly equal.

 

IIRC, the MTA replaces artics with standards at a 4:5 ratio, so at most, ridership goes up by 5:4, or 125% of the original ridership. So you'd bring in around another 3,000 riders or so to the local (and I highly doubt all of those riders would be "stolen" from the SBS, especially considering your second point)

 

b) And what would be the problem with that? You're not talking about a situation like the Lincoln Tunnel bus lane, where at times, the bus lane (or rather, the approaches to the bus lane) have so many buses that they end up causing their own congestion.

[GreatOne2k]

Summer weekends there are more BPH on the Bx12 local than Bx12 select at times.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Considering the in the Bronx, can you blame them? Lol......

Yeah it's actually amazing how slow the is.  The in that area isn't much better though.  Seems like they find any excuse to make it run local, so that isn't a great option either.  Yesterday our BxM11 broke down picking up a wheelchair right near Thwaites.  One of the few times that taking the up there made sense because I knew they likely would not send out another bus and we would be waiting another hour.  What is interesting though is that they don't run more service on Sundays.  Those first few Northbound trips get all of the Bronx Zoo crowds.  They pack up those buses on another level. 

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

a) I don't see how you could ever have more BPH on the local than the +SBS+. The local ridership is currently at around 13k. Even if it doubled (and those riders were all "stolen" from the SBS, both of which are highly unlikely), that means that local & SBS ridership would be about equal, which would imply that the frequencies should be roughly equal.

 

IIRC, the MTA replaces artics with standards at a 4:5 ratio, so at most, ridership goes up by 5:4, or 125% of the original ridership. So you'd bring in around another 3,000 riders or so to the local (and I highly doubt all of those riders would be "stolen" from the SBS, especially considering your second point)

 

b) And what would be the problem with that? You're not talking about a situation like the Lincoln Tunnel bus lane, where at times, the bus lane (or rather, the approaches to the bus lane) have so many buses that they end up causing their own congestion.

The PM Rush currently has the local running at 7-8 minute headways  (8 BPH) eastbound with the SBS running at 12 BPH in that direction (it's really 11 between 4:30 and 5:30 from Inwood thanks to some odd scheduling). Removing artics would bring the local up to at least 10 BPH and if those end up above quideline loads you could end up with service parity between the variants for at least that time period. Given the huge disparity in current ridership between the local and SBS service there should be no time of day or direction where service is nearly equal between them. I would be okay with the idea of running a couple more rush hour locals on a 40 foot operation if and only if the PM Bx12 SBS was given 4 minute headways like it was from Fall 2014-Spring 2016 (excluding Summer 2015).

 

What are you trying to question the problem of? The discussion I mentioned there had nothing to do with traffic congestion. It had to do with the thought process that addressing Bx12 crowding (by means of increased service) would be a lost cause since new riders would just come out of the woodworks to bombard any added service that was provided.

[GreatOne2k]

 What is interesting though is that they don't run more service on Sundays.  Those first few Northbound trips get all of the Bronx Zoo crowds.  They pack up those buses on another level.

 

Any standees on those trips?

 

They should try extending the BxM8 to City Island on summer weekends to get more riders in both directions.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Any standees on those trips?

 

They should try extending the BxM8 to City Island on summer weekends to get more riders in both directions.

Well yesterday's trip left me a bit concerned.  So many kids and strollers.  No standees, but it got pretty crowded.  When the Bronx Zoo crowd got off, there were only three of us remaining (myself included).  They made up at least 30 people easily, between the folks with the kids, and the others without.

[IAlam]

Well yesterday's trip left me a bit concerned.  So many kids and strollers.  No standees, but it got pretty crowded.  When the Bronx Zoo crowd got off, there were only three of us remaining (myself included).  They made up at least 30 people easily, between the folks with the kids, and the others without.

where is a stop even at? I keep trying to find the stop on Google street view and I could never find it.

[B35 via Church]

What are you trying to question the problem of?

 

The discussion I mentioned there had nothing to do with traffic congestion. It had to do with the thought process that addressing Bx12 crowding (by means of increased service) would be a lost cause since new riders would just come out of the woodworks to bombard any added service that was provided.

Looks to me like he's questioning (the comments/positions of) those facebook detractors of yours; Basically agreeing with your stance/position....

 

The notion of buses not being deadlocked at a standstill along Pelham Pkwy/Fordham rd if you were to increase buses along the route (which is what those bus lanes, and the approaches to those bus lanes are, around the Lincoln)..... Meaning, traffic congestion would be a weak argument against increasing Bx12's to address the overcrowding.....

 

At least, that's what I got from it.....

 

where is a stop even at? I keep trying to find the stop on Google street view and I could never find it.

What, the Bronx Zoo stop?

 

- Yeah, if you're on a Bronx bound bus, the stop is technically at the very end of exit 6 (Boston rd) off the Bronx river pkwy; before the actual turn onto Boston rd...

 

If you're on a Manhattan bound bus, the stop is just short of the Boston rd entrance to the Zoo - right before the bus makes a left turn onto the parkway approach (entrance)... It's just past the underpass (which is the actual pkwy itself).....

 

Basically, if you don't need the Zoo, you have no business utilizing that stop as a pedestrian (especially the stop heading towards Manhattan)... You don't want to be walking from Bronx Park East to that Manhattan bound stop, or from the Bronx Zoo stop heading towards Wakefield, to Bronx park East (and elsewhere).... I say that, but sometimes you do get people walking from that Bronx Zoo stop, cutting across the park to get to Bronx pk. E (I'm sure VG8 has seen that as well)... Trips me out every time... I sure as hell wouldn't do it.... I'd just get off @ the next stop (Pelham Pkwy) & call it a day....

[checkmatechamp13]

The PM Rush currently has the local running at 7-8 minute headways  (8 BPH) eastbound with the SBS running at 12 BPH in that direction (it's really 11 between 4:30 and 5:30 from Inwood thanks to some odd scheduling). Removing artics would bring the local up to at least 10 BPH and if those end up above quideline loads you could end up with service parity between the variants for at least that time period. Given the huge disparity in current ridership between the local and SBS service there should be no time of day or direction where service is nearly equal between them. I would be okay with the idea of running a couple more rush hour locals on a 40 foot operation if and only if the PM Bx12 SBS was given 4 minute headways like it was from Fall 2014-Spring 2016 (excluding Summer 2015).

 

Well, think about it this way: The disparity isn't quite as great as you're making it out to be, because the local is shorter. So the ridership per mile is still lower on the local, but not by as much (the local is around 5 miles long, and the +SBS+ is around 7 miles long). Obviously, the evening trips on the local run the full length, but those probably account for a relatively low percentage of the total (even though I know they can still get crowded, the fact that they run less frequently means fewer people are being moved).

 

Second of all, look at a route with similar ridership numbers, like the Bx11. It runs every 4-6 minutes during rush hour and is a similar length and ridership patterns. (A lot of people going to the subway lines at Jerome, Grand Concourse, and the train, and a certain number of people going to Upper Manhattan for the subway or visiting relatives or shopping or whatever)

 

Basically, what I'm getting at is: Would that frequency be a reasonable frequency in and of itself? Forget about comparing it to the +SBS+ frequency.

 

Also remember that the frequency is generally based on the peak load point, but a route with heavy turnover like the Bx12 (local or +SBS+) can handle a lot more riders with a similar frequency (compared to say, an SI route where there's relatively little turnover) because as riders get on, riders are also getting off.

 

What are you trying to question the problem of? The discussion I mentioned there had nothing to do with traffic congestion. It had to do with the thought process that addressing Bx12 crowding (by means of increased service) would be a lost cause since new riders would just come out of the woodworks to bombard any added service that was provided.

 

Looks to me like he's questioning (the comments/positions of) those facebook detractors of yours; Basically agreeing with your stance/position....

 

The notion of buses not being deadlocked at a standstill along Pelham Pkwy/Fordham rd if you were to increase buses along the route (which is what those bus lanes, and the approaches to those bus lanes are, around the Lincoln)..... Meaning, traffic congestion would be a weak argument against increasing Bx12's to address the overcrowding.....

 

At least, that's what I got from it.....

 

Basically, B35 got it.

 

In other words, if more service = more riders, and as a result, the crowds on the buses are slightly similar to today, then I'm not seeing how it's any worse than today. You might be waiting 30 seconds less on average, which isn't a bad thing.

 

The only way it would be worse/pointless would be if you're just throwing more buses into the congestion and having them sit there and block the other buses (at which point, it would be better if those "excess" riders walked or whatever and you didn't run those extra buses).

 

Think of it this way: Subway tracks supposedly have this constraint of 30 TPH. Adding more trains than that will only serve to clog up the line because they won't be able to clear the signals fast enough. A bus lane also has a certain amount of capacity (I don't know what it is offhand in terms of buses per hour offhand). But basically, as long as you're nowhere near that limit, those extra buses aren't going to get in each other's way.

 

I mean, right now you have around 12 BPH on the +SBS+, 8 BPH on the local, 8 BPH on the Bx22, and lets say another 10 BPH between the Bx17 and Bee Line buses. 38-40 BPH is around a bus every 1.5 minutes. Throwing on another say, 4 BPH isn't going to cause the bus lane to reach its limit, even if you take into account dwell time (since multiple buses can be in the same stop at once, it's not as bad as with trains in terms of limiting capacity)

Edited June 14, 2016 by checkmatechamp13

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What, the Bronx Zoo stop?

 

- Yeah, if you're on a Bronx bound bus, the stop is technically at the very end of exit 6 (Boston rd) off the Bronx river pkwy; before the actual turn onto Boston rd...

 

If you're on a Manhattan bound bus, the stop is just short of the Boston rd entrance to the Zoo - right before the bus makes a left turn onto the parkway approach (entrance)... It's just past the underpass (which is the actual pkwy itself).....

 

Basically, if you don't need the Zoo, you have no business utilizing that stop as a pedestrian (especially the stop heading towards Manhattan)... You don't want to be walking from Bronx Park East to that Manhattan bound stop, or from the Bronx Zoo stop heading towards Wakefield, to Bronx park East (and elsewhere).... I say that, but sometimes you do get people walking from that Bronx Zoo stop, cutting across the park to get to Bronx pk. E (I'm sure VG8 has seen that as well)... Trips me out every time... I sure as hell wouldn't do it.... I'd just get off @ the next stop (Pelham Pkwy) & call it a day....

Well I tend to agree with your assessment in bold.  Basically that area at night is very isolated, and I have yet to see anyone get on there after the Zoo is closed.  My guess is that the decided to run all trips via the Bronx Zoo because of complaints about certain buses bypassing that stop going back to Manhattan, which I saw on a number of occasions.  The other thing that I think happened was that the BxM11 tanked big time in terms of ridership a few years back and those Bronx Zoo people can be a source of ridership when the economy is bad.  Let's face it... Williamsbridge, Wakefield... Those areas and even Mount Vernon up in Westchester can all cause ridership to tank on that line if the economy is really crappy.  Without them that leaves basically the lone neighborhood of Pelham Parkway, which draws a good amount of ridership, but not enough to anchor the entire route, and is much smaller than say Wakefield and Williamsbridge, though it is quite dense, so that was the thinking behind that whole thing (IMO).  In addition to that, there are some folks that live near Bronx Park East that I'm sure yelled to have that stop by Pelham Parkway South & Boston Rd heading Southbound re-instated.  They probably did not like waiting at Thwaites and Boston Rd (kind of dark over there at night, along with some questionable characters here and there), not to mention that it's a longer schlepp from Bronx Park East, so with that stop re-instated, now the BxM11 buses have to go via Bronx Zoo for sure or face someone filing a complaint.  I'm almost certain some of those Pelham Parkway people would make a stink, as south of Pelham Parkway South is where you find some of the nicest parts (and more expensive of course) of Pelham Parkway.  That and east of White Plains Rd until about Allerton or so since you head towards Pelham Gardens.

 

Going Northbound towards Wakefield though, what I used to notice was the endless snarl of cars clogging up the lane to get from the drop-off stop to the Pelham Parkway South stop.  Used to drive me nuts as that little section could kill 10 minutes alone.  For that reason, if there was a severe back-up, I would certainly get off at the Bronx Zoo stop and just walk over to Bronx Park East (though I've never had such a need). Otherwise, I agree with the idea getting off at Pelham Parkway South and Boston Rd.

 

where is a stop even at? I keep trying to find the stop on Google street view and I could never find it.

The stop going Northbound towards Wakefield is literally right as you come off of the parkway. There's a park right next to the drop-off bus stop. You may not see it on Google maps because it's an old school style bus stop sign that is quite worn out.  Going back to Manhattan, the stop is located right under the underpass like structure, just outside of the parking area of the Bronx Zoo.  It's about as convenient as it gets, not to mention that it is MUCH closer than the subway and FASTER.  For parents with kids, they are not going to want to schlepp up and down stairs on the subway with the strollers, multiple yelling brats, etc., and the run like crap in general, so getting to Pelham Parkway on weekends or any other time tends to be a challenge in and of itself.

 

Any standees on those trips?

 

They should try extending the BxM8 to City Island on summer weekends to get more riders in both directions.

Not so far, but given how tourists and others (particularly the yuppie types from the Upper East Side), I could see the BxM11 needing more service down the road, should the current trend continue.  However, there would have to be serious ongoing overcrowding problems for the to run a bus every 30 minutes on that line.  I'm not sure if it's a question of B/Os not wanting to work on Sundays or what, but they are very frugal with Sunday service for Bus express bus lines in general, with the BxM7 being the only bus that gets more than hourly service on Sundays.  Now the may argue that there isn't demand for such service, but on certain lines they certainly could run 30 minute headways for at least part of the day.

 

As for the BxM8, I think extending that line to City Island would do more harm than good. The BxM8 serves VERY isolated and transit starved areas (Castle Hill, Soundview, Shorehaven, Country Club, parts of Pelham Bay and City Island).  I used to wonder why it ran so late during the week, but I certainly understand why.  They really need that bus given the lack of subway service or the need to take a local bus to the which may or not be running.  The BxM8 does just fine on weekends.  The folks in Country Club and Pelham Bay make up a good portion of the usage, with the rest coming from Castle Hill, Soundview and perhaps some people driving from Shorehaven.  The only area that is really dirt poor is Soundview, but Country Club is solid middle class to upper middle class in some parts, and the same could be said for City Island, despite parts of the island looking like a dump.  Pelham Bay is solid middle class area and Castle Hill is working class for the most part, but you have enough people from all of those areas that use the bus.  I think extending trips to City Island could delay the BxM8 in City Island.  During the summer months, traffic can be a nightmare, and many residents flee to get away from the congestion and crowds.  You could also have too many people flocking to the BxM8 bus forcing the to run more service and add considerable more run time.  Most trips from Pelham Bay to Midtown are about one hour.  The likes trips that aren't too long. The longer they become the more expensive they are to run, and so there would have to a real push for such an extension.  If anything I could see select trips extended to City Island.  I do think it's not a terrible idea, provided that the bus could somehow avoid too much congestion.  

Edited June 14, 2016 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

As for the BxM8, I think extending that line to City Island would do more harm than good. The BxM8 serves VERY isolated and transit starved areas (Castle Hill, Soundview, Shorehaven, Country Club, parts of Pelham Bay and City Island).  I used to wonder why it ran so late during the week, but I certainly understand why.  They really need that bus given the lack of subway service or the need to take a local bus to the which may or not be running.  The BxM8 does just fine on weekends.  The folks in Country Club and Pelham Bay make up a good portion of the usage, with the rest coming from Castle Hill, Soundview and perhaps some people driving from Shorehaven.  The only area that is really dirt poor is Soundview, but Country Club is solid middle class to upper middle class in some parts, and the same could be said for City Island, despite parts of the island looking like a dump.  Pelham Bay is solid middle class area and Castle Hill is working class for the most part, but you have enough people from all of those areas that use the bus.  I think extending trips to City Island could delay the BxM8 in City Island.  During the summer months, traffic can be a nightmare, and many residents flee to get away from the congestion and crowds.  You could also have too many people flocking to the BxM8 bus forcing the to run more service and add considerable more run time.  Most trips from Pelham Bay to Midtown are about one hour.  The likes trips that aren't too long. The longer they become the more expensive they are to run, and so there would have to a real push for such an extension.  If anything I could see select trips extended to City Island.  I do think it's not a terrible idea, provided that the bus could somehow avoid too much congestion.  

For all I care, the BxM8 should go non stop at Balcom (meaning, buses won't have to stop @ WPR & Castle Hill).... Aside from that, the one thing I have noticed about the route is that you have riders taking local buses to PBP (from Co-op) to take the BxM8 (instead of dealing with the BxM7).... Don't blame them one bit for doing that either....

 

I agree though that it doesn't need to run to City Island.... They herald their Bx29 much more than they ever did their (old) BxM7b, so I say let those patrons eat cake.....