BM5 via Woodhaven Posted July 27, 2014 Share #1551 Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) BM5 Woodhaven, Those buses that run via Riverdale av. ARE the super express buses that run via the Deegan ! The BxM1 that runs via Riverdale av isn't just an alternative routing, because these are also the trips that bypass Inwood (it would be just an alternative routing if the Riverdale Av trips served Inwood).... There isn't a single BxM1 trip that bypasses Spuyten Duyvil that serves Inwood... With that said: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This part of the discussion is a good example of why I say the Super Express signage should be used more often, regardless if it's a NYCT bus route or an MTA Bus route..... IMO, Every single BxM18, x37, x38, x42 trip should have the "Super Express" signage..... The 37 is a 27 that makes less stops... The 38 is a 28 that makes less stops.... The 42 is a 12 that makes less stops....The BxM18 is a Riverdale super express that makes less stops in Manhattan..... Just because these routes have their own route number doesn't make them any less of a super express (which I can understand how that could be misleading.... The regulars of these routes know what the routes do, but for prospective regulars [meaning, newcomers to an area], it'll be viewed as a totally separate route)..... I'm probably confusing this with an old schedule, because IIRC some trips on Riverdale Ave went via Inwood, and some were signed up as Super Express. The BxM1's bypassing Inwood I know is a super express. As for the BxM2, couldn't it also be considered an alternative routing though, because it does make those stops on 230 street before going express. Unless you're saying it has less stops than the BxM1 from Riverdale to the UES (I'm not doubting you, I just want that to be clarified). Edited July 27, 2014 by BM5 via Woodhaven 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted July 27, 2014 Share #1552 Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) I'm probably confusing this with an old schedule, because IIRC some trips on Riverdale Ave went via Inwood, and some were signed up as Super Express. The BxM1's bypassing Inwood I know is a super express. As for the BxM2, couldn't it also be considered an alternative routing though, because it does make those stops on 230 street before going express. Unless you're saying it has less stops than the BxM1 from Riverdale to the UES (I'm not doubting you, I just want that to be clarified). I'm talking about current service, not old service... So I don't know what old schedule/service pattern you were perhaps thinking of.... As for the alternative routing bit, well you can technically claim any diversion off a "normal" routing as alternative routing (I hope you aren't being that technical about all this, b/c then this whole discussion becomes pointless)... But for all intents & purposes of what's being discussed, I would say no, because the riverdale av trips are super expresses for the north riverdale (and central riverdale.. as VG8 calls it) patrons.... It's a time saving measure for those that don't wanna put up w/ the ride through lower riverdale (or w/e it's called... b/w the southern tip of the park & 246th on the HHP side) & spuyten duyvil...... To add to the point (I suppose), [even though the BxM1 has more route variations than the BxM2] & [even though all BxM2's run via the Deegan], the fact that riverdale av trips exist still make them super expresses....Not sure how else I can clear that up.... To your inquiry, I'm not comparing the BxM1 to the BxM2 on either front (manhattan end or bronx end)... I'm actually grouping them together to make the point - Which is, since both of those routes have trips via Riverdale av, they are super expresses, since neither one of them serve henry hudson pkwy, on down to Spuyten Duyvil..... Also, this point about 230th st, I'm not sure why you're using that as a point of contention.....The fact that the BxM2 makes stops on 230th doesn't mean those Riverdale av trips aren't super expresses (The BxM1 super express trips also makes those stops on 230th btw)...... Out of the both of those routes, there is no variation of any of them that does not serve the 230th st stops..... You're using the wrong segments of those routes (BxM1 & BxM2) as a disqualifier...... I dunno, for some reason, I think you're using what the old BxM4b used to do, as a measuring stick.... That was an extreme case (Hell, to me, that was more like a shuttle than anything)... Edited July 27, 2014 by B35 via Church 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BM5 via Woodhaven Posted July 27, 2014 Share #1553 Posted July 27, 2014 I'm talking about current service, not old service... So I don't know what old schedule/service pattern you were perhaps thinking of.... As for the alternative routing bit, well you can technically claim any diversion off a "normal" routing as alternative routing (I hope you aren't being that technical about all this, b/c then this whole discussion becomes pointless)... But for all intents & purposes of what's being discussed, I would say no, because the riverdale av trips are super expresses for the north riverdale (and central riverdale.. as VG8 calls it) patrons.... It's a time saving measure for those that don't wanna put up w/ the ride through lower riverdale (or w/e it's called... b/w the southern tip of the park & 246th on the HHP side) & spuyten duyvil...... To add to the point (I suppose), [even though the BxM1 has more route variations than the BxM2] & [even though all BxM2's run via the Deegan], the fact that riverdale av trips exist still make them super expresses....Not sure how else I can clear that up.... To your inquiry, I'm not comparing the BxM1 to the BxM2 on either front (manhattan end or bronx end)... I'm actually grouping them together to make the point - Which is, since both of those routes have trips via Riverdale av, they are super expresses, since neither one of them serve henry hudson pkwy, on down to Spuyten Duyvil..... Also, this point about 230th st, I'm not sure why you're using that as a point of contention.....The fact that the BxM2 makes stops on 230th doesn't mean those Riverdale av trips aren't super expresses (The BxM1 super express trips also makes those stops on 230th btw)...... Out of the both of those routes, there is no variation of any of them that does not serve the 230th st stops..... You're using the wrong segments of those routes (BxM1 & BxM2) as a disqualifier...... I dunno, for some reason, I think you're using what the old BxM4b used to do, as a measuring stick.... That was an extreme case (Hell, to me, that was more like a shuttle than anything)... No, I'm not being technical about it.I was thinking in the sense of the QM's (QM2/5/8/20). Since they all make one stop, the midtown super expresses to Queens go express without stopping via the local streets, then the LIE, compared to the regular route making stops on 6 Ave and 57, before going express. Since the BxM2 did take a shortcut, and it made stops along the way as well (that confused me, since I would've thought for it to be a super express, it wouldn't have made any stops in the Bronx south of when it took Riverdale Avenue). I still thought there were some BxM1's via Riverdale Avenue that stopped in Inwood (there are none now, so yes, that is a SUPER EXPRESS). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatOne2k Posted July 27, 2014 Share #1554 Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) Why not make a BxM5 (at least rush hours) that starts at Yonkers Raceway (or Cross County as Park and Ride), then McLean Av, then Woodlawn Heights, then via the old BxM4B Super Express routing to Manhattan. The BxM4 will run from Yonkers Raceway into it's current routing via the Grand Concourse. Would the BxM8 be better off eliminating the Crosby Avenue stop in favor of staying on Bruckner Boulevard until Pelham Bay? This would speed up the ride and allow for more City Island ridership. City Island service could be expanded on weekdays and on summer weekends at least, maybe later becoming a full time extension. Edited July 27, 2014 by GreatOne2k 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted July 27, 2014 Share #1555 Posted July 27, 2014 No, I'm not being technical about it.I was thinking in the sense of the QM's (QM2/5/8/20). Since they all make one stop, the midtown super expresses to Queens go express without stopping via the local streets, then the LIE, compared to the regular route making stops on 6 Ave and 57, before going express. Since the BxM2 did take a shortcut, and it made stops along the way as well (that confused me, since I would've thought for it to be a super express, it wouldn't have made any stops in the Bronx south of when it took Riverdale Avenue). I still thought there were some BxM1's via Riverdale Avenue that stopped in Inwood (there are none now, so yes, that is a SUPER EXPRESS). I thought you may have been using something as a measuring stick.... But yeah, those are also extreme cases; think about it, one stop & presto - right to the outerborough (Queens, in this case)..... Lol. Consider the BM1-4 super expresses (I'll give those SC b/o's credit, because they don't hesitate to have that super express signage up - well, in the morning anyway) & the fact those are still dubbed super expresses, since they totally bypass lower manhattan.... VG8 already pointed out the dilemma/confusion/whatever you wanna call it, with the BxM1/BxM2 & the signage that is used on those routes (to boot, I never understood why the BxM2 has the *via riverdale av* sign, but the BxM1 does not)... BxM1's via riverdale av resuming the normal routing (to Inwood)? Nah, they rid of those sometime in 07 or 08 IINM.....Back when the BxM1 had buses starting at 239th/independence & had super expresses going straight to 50th st from West 230th (even back then, the super expresses stopped along 230th), or in the PM direction, going from what, 34th, 42nd, and 50th straight to 230th/broadway.... Those days are gone.... This may help clarify things better: The Riverdale av trips became the super express trips.... That's how much cuts the BxM1 underwent since that time. If you want to make the point that the riverdale super expresses have been severely bastardized, that I will agree with.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted July 27, 2014 Share #1556 Posted July 27, 2014 Why not make a BxM5 (at least rush hours) that starts at Yonkers Raceway (or Cross County as Park and Ride), then McLean Av, then Woodlawn Heights, then via the old BxM4B Super Express routing to Manhattan. The BxM4 will run from Yonkers Raceway into it's current routing via the Grand Concourse. Cross county I don't agree with; that's pushing it too far.... I'll only speak on Yonkers Raceway..... Although I (still) don't agree that such an extension should utilize McLean av (for reasons I already explained to BM5 Woodhaven), we can't talk seriously talk about a super express (running b/w Yonkers & Woodlawn, then straight to Manhattan) because it's not that apparent that a BxM4 extension to Yonkers would get that much ridership..... We have to focus on getting (well, discerning) the Westchester usage b/w Katonah/242nd & the raceway first.... * Lol @ "Woodlawn Heights" btw; that was a real estate ploy to try to get more people to move to the area.... That whole area is just Woodlawn. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupojohn Posted July 27, 2014 Share #1557 Posted July 27, 2014 Add more Bx7 service for what? Just make the service reliable and maybe add a few artics and call it a day. Overnight service is not needed. The Bx10 is good enough, as it serves Spuyten Duyvil and Riverdale. Riverdale is pretty dead at night, so it would only take maybe 5 minutes at the most to go through Spuyten Duyvil. The only stops that the Bx7 makes that the Bx10 doesn't make are Riverdale Avenue and 236th, & Riverdale Avenue & 238th, both of which are close to Henry Hudson Parkway & West 239th where the Bx10 stops. We don't want more buses around here clogging up our narrow streets and causing more pollution. If anything I would advocate for later express bus service before advocating for overnight Bx7 service or additional Bx7 buses during the rush. It's not all about Riverdale, you know. The 7 could use more buses south of Riverdale since the 100 now turns at Dyckman and Broadway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatOne2k Posted July 27, 2014 Share #1558 Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) Cross county I don't agree with; that's pushing it too far.... I'll only speak on Yonkers Raceway..... Although I (still) don't agree that such an extension should utilize McLean av (for reasons I already explained to BM5 Woodhaven), we can't talk seriously talk about a super express (running b/w Yonkers & Woodlawn, then straight to Manhattan) because it's not that apparent that a BxM4 extension to Yonkers would get that much ridership..... We have to focus on getting (well, discerning) the Westchester usage b/w Katonah/242nd & the raceway first.... * Lol @ "Woodlawn Heights" btw; that was a real estate ploy to try to get more people to move to the area.... That whole area is just Woodlawn. The only other alternative for a BxM5 would be for it to skip Katonah Avenue and go straight up Jerome via the W20 route to get to Yonkers. MTA would have to first extend the BxM4 via McLean, then "split" the route in two be making the Yonkers extension a straight BxM5, while the BxM4 would revert back to its current route. Whether or not the BxM5 should skip lower Grand Concourse stops (or make any at all) is another issue. Edited July 27, 2014 by GreatOne2k 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted July 28, 2014 Share #1559 Posted July 28, 2014 The only other alternative for a BxM5 would be for it to skip Katonah Avenue and go straight up Jerome via the W20 route to get to Yonkers. MTA would have to first extend the BxM4 via McLean, then "split" the route in two be making the Yonkers extension a straight BxM5, while the BxM4 would revert back to its current route. Whether or not the BxM5 should skip lower Grand Concourse stops (or make any at all) is another issue. No express bus should stop on anypart of the grand concourse. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 28, 2014 Share #1560 Posted July 28, 2014 I'm talking about current service, not old service... So I don't know what old schedule/service pattern you were perhaps thinking of.... As for the alternative routing bit, well you can technically claim any diversion off a "normal" routing as alternative routing (I hope you aren't being that technical about all this, b/c then this whole discussion becomes pointless)... But for all intents & purposes of what's being discussed, I would say no, because the riverdale av trips are super expresses for the north riverdale (and central riverdale.. as VG8 calls it) patrons.... It's a time saving measure for those that don't wanna put up w/ the ride through lower riverdale (or w/e it's called... b/w the southern tip of the park & 246th on the HHP side) & spuyten duyvil...... To add to the point (I suppose), [even though the BxM1 has more route variations than the BxM2] & [even though all BxM2's run via the Deegan], the fact that riverdale av trips exist still make them super expresses....Not sure how else I can clear that up.... To your inquiry, I'm not comparing the BxM1 to the BxM2 on either front (manhattan end or bronx end)... I'm actually grouping them together to make the point - Which is, since both of those routes have trips via Riverdale av, they are super expresses, since neither one of them serve henry hudson pkwy, on down to Spuyten Duyvil..... Also, this point about 230th st, I'm not sure why you're using that as a point of contention.....The fact that the BxM2 makes stops on 230th doesn't mean those Riverdale av trips aren't super expresses (The BxM1 super express trips also makes those stops on 230th btw)...... Out of the both of those routes, there is no variation of any of them that does not serve the 230th st stops..... You're using the wrong segments of those routes (BxM1 & BxM2) as a disqualifier...... I dunno, for some reason, I think you're using what the old BxM4b used to do, as a measuring stick.... That was an extreme case (Hell, to me, that was more like a shuttle than anything)... Yes, you've drove home the point that I was trying to make perfectly. To add to what you said, the other thing that should be pointed out about the BxM1 and BxM2 is that those Riverdale Avenue trips bypass SEVEN pick up stops when they skip Spuyten Duyvil or "South Riverdale" as some people like to call it (lol), so if that isn't a super express bus, I don't know what is. There are only 9 drop off stops on the BxM1 and 10 on the BxM2, so if you eliminate those 7 pick-up stops, that means that each Riverdale Avenue bus only makes 19 and 20 stops between the pick ups and drop-offs respectively. Same thing with the BxM18 not stopping above 56th street. It's basically a super express of the BxM2 along Madison Avenue and 5th Avenue because all of the stops that the BxM2 makes along those two avenues, the BxM18 skips, which makes sense, as there is no need to have both of those buses making those stops. Truth be told, I believe that's one reason that they didn't do away with the BxM18. The BxM18 basically steals ridership from the BxM1 and BxM2 to a larger extent, so if you remove the BxM18, you would have to add more BxM1s and BxM2s to compensate that, so for that reason, it makes sense to just keep the BxM18 as is. As for your other super express examples, yes, all of those buses are super expresses. I believe that perhaps the reason why some lines don't have SUPER EXPRESS written may go back to the days when the private lines had the routes and how they marketed them. It's not all about Riverdale, you know. The 7 could use more buses south of Riverdale since the 100 now turns at Dyckman and Broadway. It isn't, and that's why there are plenty of Isham short turned buses serving just Inwood.... I guess you don't know about those... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted July 28, 2014 Share #1561 Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) The only other alternative for a BxM5 would be for it to skip Katonah Avenue and go straight up Jerome via the W20 route to get to Yonkers. MTA would have to first extend the BxM4 via McLean, then "split" the route in two be making the Yonkers extension a straight BxM5, while the BxM4 would revert back to its current route. Whether or not the BxM5 should skip lower Grand Concourse stops (or make any at all) is another issue. I'm questioning having a super express variant of an express route that's being extended to an area where we don't really know the usage levels with which it'll obtain..... In other words, the issue I'm raising, is the necessity of a "BxM5" of sorts, period - It's enough that the BxM4 would run up to yonkers raceway.... Your plan entails having a: - BxM4 extension to yonkers raceway (which you, I, and BM5 agree should happen).... - BxM5, which would resemble an extended (old) BxM4b super express to yonkers raceway (or cross county).... I'm not concerned about any alternatives for a BxM5 of sorts.... My concern is garnering a consistent, large enough, steady riderbase for an extended BxM4 that would terminate by the raceway.... If that would exceed expectations & current BxM4 Woodlawn riders continue to utilize their route during the rush the way they do, then I'll start considering the plausibility of a BxM5 (which would be a super express version of the extended BxM4)..... Your plan is too ambitious; you seem to be putting the cart before the horse here.... Edited July 28, 2014 by B35 via Church 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 28, 2014 Share #1562 Posted July 28, 2014 I'm questioning having a super express variant of an express route that's being extended to an area where we don't really know the usage levels with which it'll obtain..... In other words, the issue I'm raising, is the necessity of a "BxM5" of sorts, period - It's enough that the BxM4 would run up to yonkers raceway.... Your plan entails having a: - BxM4 extension to yonkers raceway (which you, I, and BM5 agree should happen).... - BxM5, which would resemble an extended (old) BxM4b super express to yonkers raceway (or cross county).... I'm not concerned about any alternatives for a BxM5 of sorts.... My concern is garnering a consistent, large enough, steady riderbase for an extended BxM4 that would terminate by the raceway.... If that would exceed expectations & current BxM4 Woodlawn riders continue to utilize their route during the rush the way they do, then I'll start considering the plausibility of a BxM5 (which would be a super express version of the extended BxM4)..... Your plan is too ambitious; you seem to be putting the cart before the horse here.... And aside from that I'm still rather annoyed at the idea of Westchester being the "savior" for a express bus route that is supplemented by the city... Extending the BxM4 there is sufficient enough. I don't think BxM5s are necessary, not unless Westchester is going to pay for them entirely or a portion of them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 28, 2014 Share #1563 Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) I thought you may have been using something as a measuring stick.... But yeah, those are also extreme cases; think about it, one stop & presto - right to the outerborough (Queens, in this case)..... Lol. Consider the BM1-4 super expresses (I'll give those SC b/o's credit, because they don't hesitate to have that super express signage up - well, in the morning anyway) & the fact those are still dubbed super expresses, since they totally bypass lower manhattan.... VG8 already pointed out the dilemma/confusion/whatever you wanna call it, with the BxM1/BxM2 & the signage that is used on those routes (to boot, I never understood why the BxM2 has the *via riverdale av* sign, but the BxM1 does not)... BxM1's via riverdale av resuming the normal routing (to Inwood)? Nah, they rid of those sometime in 07 or 08 IINM.....Back when the BxM1 had buses starting at 239th/independence & had super expresses going straight to 50th st from West 230th (even back then, the super expresses stopped along 230th), or in the PM direction, going from what, 34th, 42nd, and 50th straight to 230th/broadway.... Those days are gone.... This may help clarify things better: The Riverdale av trips became the super express trips.... That's how much cuts the BxM1 underwent since that time. If you want to make the point that the riverdale super expresses have been severely bastardized, that I will agree with.... The whole signage thing, I think it comes down to marketing. Out of the two routes, the BxM1 is the express bus in Riverdale. I don't know if it's the snob factor of the bus or what but people gravitate more to that bus than they do the BxM2. That isn't to say that people won't use the BxM2 because they certainly do, as most use it as the back up bus since they can use either one given their location especially for the 5th Av. stops that it makes, but the BxM1 is favored over the 2. Part of it is the frequency level, and the other part of is that it has a more direct route than the BxM2 does and also connects to the , which some folks who need Downtown service will use when the BxM18 stops running. I think it's also because of the fact that you have a lot folks that either work on the Upper East Side near Lex or that work in Midtown off of Lex and so "via Lex" is just more marketable for that bus. Also, people that use the BxM1 are very well aware of the Super Express trips as there are several of them. I have even seen some folks from Spuyten Duyvil come up to Central Riverdale to use the Super Express buses at 239th and Henry Hudson Parkway, so basically there is no need for a "via Riverdale Av" sign. Meanwhile the BxM2 has only two Super Express runs, and so those runs are marketed for that reason to Central Riverdale, Fieldston and North Riverdale. The BxM2 really fills up along Kappock, and in my opinion is strongly marketed to the folks down in Spuyten Duyvil hence the "via Kappock" signage. There's a lot of seniors down there that use the bus and they like it to go to Lincoln Center shows, dinner at Daniel Boulud, or shopping along 34th street, so the BxM2 is marketed much more differently from the BxM1. More like the party bus than the work bus, though of course some people use it for work, but far fewer in comparison to the BxM1. That's precisely why the BxM2 has higher usage on weekends... After Mount Sinai, I'd say there's only a few stops that people use for their jobs which are 50th and 7th, 63rd and Broadway to some extent, and maybe some of the stops down below 50th (i.e. 34th & 7th), but to a lesser extent. After the BxM1 and BxM2, the BxM18 comes, and that bus has the signage that is marketed for Midtown folks and Downtown folks, but it is still seen as the "Downtown bus". A lot of Riverdalians have no idea that it makes super express stops in Midtown, but it seems as if more are finding out about it from the ridership I've been seeing. I told a lady about the BxM18 and how she could take that instead of the BxM2 and she was shocked. Dare I say it, but part of it is the spoil factor. Those who are closer to 6th will stick with the BxM2, those closer to 3rd will stick with the BxM1, and those who are familiar with all three routes and know about the quickness of the BxM18 will forget about both buses and just use the BxM18 where possible. I know quite a few people that will wait around for the BxM18 even if it is 20 minutes late because it will still beat out the BxM2 going back to Riverdale. Edited July 28, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted July 28, 2014 Share #1564 Posted July 28, 2014 ....Also, people that use the BxM1 are very well aware of the Super Express trips as there are several of them. I have even seen some folks from Spuyten Duyvil come up to Central Riverdale to use the Super Express buses at 239th and Henry Hudson Parkway, so basically there is no need for a "via Riverdale Av" sign..... By that logic, there should be no need for a BxM2 via riverdale av sign either, since those riders are aware of the super expresses also.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatOne2k Posted July 28, 2014 Share #1565 Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) I'm questioning having a super express variant of an express route that's being extended to an area where we don't really know the usage levels with which it'll obtain..... In other words, the issue I'm raising, is the necessity of a "BxM5" of sorts, period - It's enough that the BxM4 would run up to yonkers raceway.... Your plan entails having a: - BxM4 extension to yonkers raceway (which you, I, and BM5 agree should happen).... - BxM5, which would resemble an extended (old) BxM4b super express to yonkers raceway (or cross county).... I'm not concerned about any alternatives for a BxM5 of sorts.... My concern is garnering a consistent, large enough, steady riderbase for an extended BxM4 that would terminate by the raceway.... If that would exceed expectations & current BxM4 Woodlawn riders continue to utilize their route during the rush the way they do, then I'll start considering the plausibility of a BxM5 (which would be a super express version of the extended BxM4)..... Your plan is too ambitious; you seem to be putting the cart before the horse here.... The BxM5 is also a way for buses to avoid using McLean (which is what a BxM4 extension would have to do) There are several options here Option 1 BxM4 to Yonkers Raceway via Woodlawn Option 2 BxM4 to Woodlawn BxM5 to Yonkers Raceway (using the straight W20 route and avoiding McLean) Option 3 (could be implemented later on depending upon ridership) BxM4 to Yonkers Raceway via Woodlawn BxM5 to Yonkers Raceway (or Cross County) via Woodlawn (Super Express) The question becomes would it be better to extend the BxM4 (using McLean), or splitting the route up with a BxM5? The BxM5 is supposed to make the ride a bit more attractive to Yonkers rather than going through the whole BxM4 route. The BxM5 (either version) would also give reverse commuters to the casino a quicker ride as well. Rob Astorino was in discussions with Jay Walder at one time to extend the BxM4(B) to Westchester, problem was, riders wanted the route extended to Greenburgh.. http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/18219-express-bus-bxm4b-extension-to-yonkers-discussed/ http://www.subchat.com/buschat/read.asp?Id=193490 Edited July 28, 2014 by GreatOne2k 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupojohn Posted July 28, 2014 Share #1566 Posted July 28, 2014 No express bus should stop on anypart of the grand concourse. Why? The Concourse is long and crowded. Maybe people don't wanna take the or shove on the 1 or 2 buses all the time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 28, 2014 Share #1567 Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) By that logic, there should be no need for a BxM2 via riverdale av sign either, since those riders are aware of the super expresses also.... That's true, but you couldn't use the "via KAPPOCK ST" signage because the bus would have to go through Spuyten Duyvil in order to do that. Also, the BxM2 also doesn't have a main artery that it does serves in Manhattan. In any event though, one of the main differences I notice with the BxM2 is that most buses are practically empty by the time they stop at Kappock and Johnson and Kappock and Knolls Crescent, with the remaining folks getting off around 235th and Henry Hudson Parkway. Sometimes you have folks going further north, but it's main ridership is down in Spuyten Duyvil, so in my mind that's who the bus is marketed to. Edited July 28, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted July 28, 2014 Share #1568 Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) Why? The Concourse is long and crowded. Maybe people don't wanna take the or shove on the 1 or 2 buses all the time. Try again and that is why the ridership is less than 400 on weekdays. The numbers say otherwise. By that logic lets run express buses to bushwick too or McDonald ave in Brooklyn. Heck why not Fulton street Brooklyn too. Edited July 28, 2014 by qjtransitmaster 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 28, 2014 Share #1569 Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) Try again and that is why the ridership is less than 400 on weekdays. The numbers say otherwise. By that logic lets run express buses to bushwick too or McDonald ave in Brooklyn. Heck why not Fulton street Brooklyn too. Just stop already. It's been stated time and again why the Concourse has express bus service. There are plenty of disabled and elderly people that need the BxM4 and most subways nearby are NOT ADA accessible. Aside from that the train is painful and LONG (in case you haven't noticed) especially when it has to run local. Taking the BxM4 from Woodlawn or the Concourse often times makes sense and can be way quicker than the subway depending on your location. Edited July 28, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted July 28, 2014 Share #1570 Posted July 28, 2014 Just stop already. It's been stated time and again why the Concourse has express bus service. There are plenty of disabled and elderly people that need the BxM4 and most subways nearby are NOT ADA accessible. Aside from that the train is painful and LONG (in case you haven't noticed) especially when it has to run local. Taking the BxM4 from Woodlawn or the Concourse often times makes sense and can be way quicker than the subway depending on your location. Then why is ridership lower than peak only queens express buses by this logic lets add a bxm12 to serve Westchester ave via the hub. You still can't explain why it does so poorly. There are many areas without ADA and do fine without an express bus. If people want faster service there are many options bx41 sbs, bx15 ltd, bx1 ltd, metro-north and at rushhour 3 subway lines. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 28, 2014 Share #1571 Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) Then why is ridership lower than peak only queens express buses by this logic lets add a bxm12 to serve Westchester ave via the hub. You still can't explain why it does so poorly. There are many areas without ADA and do fine without an express bus. If people want faster service there are many options bx41 sbs, bx15 ltd, bx1 ltd, metro-north and at rushhour 3 subway lines. Sure I can... Maybe it never dawned on you to think that a large portion of the people along the Concourse can't afford the fare... The elderly pay half price during off-peak periods, so they only pay $3.00, which is only $.50 cents more than the standard fare and they are the main ones that use it. It isn't rocket science. The South Bronx and other areas that the BxM4 run through along the Concourse are some of poorest neighborhoods, not just in New York City, but in the country. Concourse Village for example has a household income that averages around $27,000. Compare that to Riverdale with an average household income that is almost 4 times that at around $84,000, with some households over $180,000 a year in the most expensive parts of the neighborhood. Source: http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Concourse-Village-Bronx-NY.html Source: http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Riverdale-Bronx-NY.html The Concourse used to be an area where people could afford the express bus until many middle class folks fled the area due to crime, etc. That area does have pockets of people who can afford the express, but they are very small in number and those are the folks that tend to use it. Some of the co-ops along the Concourse get ridership from those folks. If and when the Concourse can turn around economically and bring in people with higher incomes then you could see more ridership on the BxM4. The length isn't that much more worse than the local subway ride on the and in fact can be faster than the subway depending on one's location. The issue is cost. That's why the other BxM4 branches were eliminated. No one could afford them. Express buses generally run through areas that are not only isolated but are usually upper middle class. There are numerous neighborhoods that fall into this category with express bus service across the city, but the areas where demographics are changing or folks are too poor will have lower ridership. A perfect example is the BM1. Mill Basin has pockets where the household income is well over $100,000, and there are enough people there that can afford the express bus. It is also isolated, so those two things help to create healthy ridership. That's something that everyone tends to overlook. Meanwhile the other BM express buses also tend to serve isolated areas but they are either standard middle class areas with smaller pockets of upper middle class areas, or areas where more folks can't afford the express bus that can. That's the issue with Gerritsen Beach. There are some well-to-do pockets, but the population of folks that use the express bus is limited, as it is not a big neighborhood to begin with, and then the remaining areas are just general middle class areas. Most of my friends that live in and grew up in Gerritsen Beach tend to drive, and those would be people that could afford the express bus but don't use it. Edited July 28, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted July 29, 2014 Share #1572 Posted July 29, 2014 Sure I can... Maybe it never dawned on you to think that a large portion of the people along the Concourse can't afford the fare... The elderly pay half price during off-peak periods, so they only pay $3.00, which is only $.50 cents more than the standard fare and they are the main ones that use it. It isn't rocket science. The South Bronx and other areas that the BxM4 run through along the Concourse are some of poorest neighborhoods, not just in New York City, but in the country. Concourse Village for example has a household income that averages around $27,000. Compare that to Riverdale with an average household income that is almost 4 times that at around $84,000, with some households over $180,000 a year in the most expensive parts of the neighborhood. Source: http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Concourse-Village-Bronx-NY.html Source: http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Riverdale-Bronx-NY.html The Concourse used to be an area where people could afford the express bus until many middle class folks fled the area due to crime, etc. That area does have pockets of people who can afford the express, but they are very small in number and those are the folks that tend to use it. Some of the co-ops along the Concourse get ridership from those folks. If and when the Concourse can turn around economically and bring in people with higher incomes then you could see more ridership on the BxM4. The length isn't that much more worse than the local subway ride on the and in fact can be faster than the subway depending on one's location. The issue is cost. That's why the other BxM4 branches were eliminated. No one could afford them. Express buses generally run through areas that are not only isolated but are usually upper middle class. There are numerous neighborhoods that fall into this category with express bus service across the city, but the areas where demographics are changing or folks are too poor will have lower ridership. A perfect example is the BM1. Mill Basin has pockets where the household income is well over $100,000, and there are enough people there that can afford the express bus. It is also isolated, so those two things help to create healthy ridership. That's something that everyone tends to overlook. Meanwhile the other BM express buses also tend to serve isolated areas but they are either standard middle class areas with smaller pockets of upper middle class areas, or areas where more folks can't afford the express bus that can. That's the issue with Gerritsen Beach. There are some well-to-do pockets, but the population of folks that use the express bus is limited, as it is not a big neighborhood to begin with, and then the remaining areas are just general middle class areas. Most of my friends that live in and grew up in Gerritsen Beach tend to drive, and those would be people that could afford the express bus but don't use it. Still running away from the question just stop. If that were the case there would be a BM Fulton street express bus. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 29, 2014 Share #1573 Posted July 29, 2014 Still running away from the question just stop. If that were the case there would be a BM Fulton street express bus. There is nothing to run away from, as I already explained the reasons. There would be no need for a Fulton Street express bus because that area has subway service and plenty of it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted July 29, 2014 Share #1574 Posted July 29, 2014 The BxM5 is also a way for buses to avoid using McLean (which is what a BxM4 extension would have to do) Have to do? That's false.... From Katonah av/W. 242nd st, buses can take Kimball av on over to Yonkers av..... Having the BxM4 run along McLean to Central Park av would be wasteful.... What you said last night about a BxM5 skipping Katonah av & going straight up Jerome to Yonkers is even worse.... There are several options here Option 1 BxM4 to Yonkers Raceway via Woodlawn Option 2 BxM4 to Woodlawn BxM5 to Yonkers Raceway (using the straight W20 route and avoiding McLean) Option 3 (could be implemented later on depending upon ridership) BxM4 to Yonkers Raceway via Woodlawn BxM5 to Yonkers Raceway (or Cross County) via Woodlawn (Super Express) The question becomes would it be better to extend the BxM4 (using McLean), or splitting the route up with a BxM5? The BxM5 is supposed to make the ride a bit more attractive to Yonkers rather than going through the whole BxM4 route. The BxM5 (either version) would also give reverse commuters to the casino a quicker ride as well. Rob Astorino was in discussions with Jay Walder at one time to extend the BxM4(B) to Westchester, problem was, riders wanted the route extended to Greenburgh.. http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/18219-express-bus-bxm4b-extension-to-yonkers-discussed/ http://www.subchat.com/buschat/read.asp?Id=193490 Option 1: Sure, but there are at least two ways to accomplishing this..... A BxM4 extension via McLean & Central Park av.... A BxM4 extension via Kimball av & Yonkers av..... Option 2: After the Montefiore stop, those BxM5's would carry air.... This rendition of a BxM5 would be a complete waste of mileage.... Option 3: Already spoke on this in my last reply to you.... As for your question (as it reads), I would say none, because I don't believe you would get more riders via McLean (over what I mentioned above, via Kimball).... And most certainly the BxM4 doesn't need to be split; an extension to yonkers raceway is no plausible reason that the BxM4 should be split..... I get the point of your inquiring of a BxM5, I just don't particularly agree wholesale with it.... Also, this BxM4 extension that we've been talking about (AFAIC) isn't primarily being proposed to benefit Westchester patrons - it's to benefit the overall usage/growth of the BxM4 (Westchester patrons would be used as a means to accomplish this; not exactly the same thing).... If any Yonkers (or whoever) patron up there takes offense to that, well, they don't have to utilize the route... That's true, but you couldn't use the "via KAPPOCK ST" signage because the bus would have to go through Spuyten Duyvil in order to do that. Also, the BxM2 also doesn't have a main artery that it does serves in Manhattan. In any event though, one of the main differences I notice with the BxM2 is that most buses are practically empty by the time they stop at Kappock and Johnson and Kappock and Knolls Crescent, with the remaining folks getting off around 235th and Henry Hudson Parkway. Sometimes you have folks going further north, but it's main ridership is down in Spuyten Duyvil, so in my mind that's who the bus is marketed to. I get all that about the BxM1 >> BxM2 (in terms of which is marketed more)..... The ultimate point I'm making though, is there there needs to be a more uniform usage of destination signage... Not just with Riverdale's super expresses, but system-wide (I'm including local buses in this/with this issue too, because there are buses that all terminate in the same area, but have different destination signage(s) [cadman plz. in downtown brooklyn is a good example of that])..... Anyway, If both routes' (BxM1 & 2) super expresses travel via riverdale av, then either have both of them use the signage, or neither one of the routes use the signage.... Still running away from the question just stop. If that were the case there would be a BM Fulton street express bus. He answered your question head on, what are you talking about.... You just want to sit here & parrot your rhetoric that the BxM4 should be cut, based on off peak ridership along the concourse & that Woodlawn has MNRR.... Which is f***king stupid, to say the least..... But you're so "sick" of this topic right..... But since you continue to insist: simple drop BXM4 and use buses elsewhere that actually need them. "....So I am saying with that few riders it doesn't need to run past rush hour." What you have to say about this one, you double talker..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted July 29, 2014 Share #1575 Posted July 29, 2014 There is nothing to run away from, as I already explained the reasons. There would be no need for a Fulton Street express bus because that area has subway service and plenty of it. And so does the Grand Concorse. Unlike Fulton street LTD buses operate on the Concorse. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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