Priincenene Posted May 21, 2014 Share #1 Posted May 21, 2014 The is planning a new MetroCard alternative in 2015-2020 called Tap & Ride. They have been planning this for the past year or two. Source: MTA.info http://web.mta.info/mta/news/books/pdf/131112_1345_CPOC.pdf Skip to Page # 9 Vlad M-Vera #mv7mafia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacemak3r Posted May 22, 2014 Share #2 Posted May 22, 2014 Seems similar to the CitiBank card thing they tried a few years back, hope it doesn't crash and burn like that project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokkemon Posted May 22, 2014 Share #3 Posted May 22, 2014 I actually listened to the CPOC meeting on YouTube and I'm concerned they're being a bit too optomistic. Philadelphia has had their "New Payment System" in the works for almost five years now, and it refuses to get out of the planning stages. There has to be some serious leadership from Tom Prendergast if we want to see any sort of progress before 2025. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted May 22, 2014 Share #4 Posted May 22, 2014 I actually listened to the CPOC meeting on YouTube and I'm concerned they're being a bit too optomistic. Philadelphia has had their "New Payment System" in the works for almost five years now, and it refuses to get out of the planning stages. There has to be some serious leadership from Tom Prendergast if we want to see any sort of progress before 2025. We've actually trialed keyfobs a few times already, and we've been talking about it at least since either Hemmerdinger or Walder, so it's not as if we haven't gotten out of the planning stages before. It's too bad the MTA neither has the resources nor the will to integrate the PATH smartcards, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sovetskii52 Posted May 22, 2014 Share #5 Posted May 22, 2014 Does this mean there won't be anymore of those weekly and monthly things like we do with the Metrocards? Those cards are my favorite part because I spend at least $45 per week when visiting New York if I were to pay for every ride separately (not including free transfers between subway and bus), but I only have to pay $30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubwayGuy Posted May 22, 2014 Share #6 Posted May 22, 2014 The problem with all of these new technologies is that they force people to link sensitive personal information to devices which can easily be stolen...not to mention issues for foreign tourists who don't use supported banks or credit cards, or students / those who don't have credit cards or bank accounts. Until they create a contactless fare method that is functionally similar to Metrocard and can be refilled easily and operate as a prepaid (or time-based unlimited), there will continue to be limited acceptance and complaints about any new system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted May 22, 2014 Share #7 Posted May 22, 2014 The best option is to integrate with Path's SmartLink. Give Conductors hand held readers on NJT,LIRR and MNR and we have something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOPRO Posted May 24, 2014 Share #8 Posted May 24, 2014 PATH's SmartLink card is exactly what they are trying to avoid. Why? Because not all PATH customers use it. They are trying to avoid developing a system that has a major amount of back end are are attempting to develop a system that will be open source heavy such as current contact-less systems deployed by Visa/MasterCard, NFC enabled mobile phones compatible with a securely developed Tap and Go app or wireless provider payment and billing. SmartLink doesn't span across regional lines. They are attempting to get this right so that whatever card they deploy can lead the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted May 24, 2014 Share #9 Posted May 24, 2014 They could take a page from DC Metro/MTA Maryland and use something like their Smart Card. They have no problems there (for the most part), and since its made by the same company, you can use either card at either agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted May 24, 2014 Share #10 Posted May 24, 2014 All I know is whatever system they come up with needs to have a way that you can pay remotely from anywhere. For those of us who live in more suburban neighborhoods without subways, it's a royal pain in the @ss to get a Metrocard. The stores are usually out, and the nearest subway often times is a good 20 - 30 minute walk and then those stations often times have machines that don't work if you want to pay with a credit card, so then you have to look around for an ATM. Most people don't carry large amounts of money on them to avoid becoming a target to be robbed. The needs to get with the times and make it easier for people to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 25, 2014 Share #11 Posted May 25, 2014 The problem with all of these new technologies is that they force people to link sensitive personal information to devices which can easily be stolen.. I honestly believe that is what these transit agencies want (not just the MTA) - (a better chance of getting) access to more people's personal information.... The masses, I'd say still use cash to refill/purchase their metrocard; it's no accident that they're set to getting rid of the metrocard...... This to me represents the sign of the times, and as a result, we're gonna end up w/ a lot more people having to deal with the depression of having to climb themselves out of identity theft...... I don't wanna hear about how crime (which by that, they mean blue collar crime) is going down in this city, when white collar crimes will skyrocket in the upcoming years.... All I know is whatever system they come up with needs to have a way that you can pay remotely from anywhere. For those of us who live in more suburban neighborhoods without subways, it's a royal pain in the @ss to get a Metrocard. The stores are usually out, and the nearest subway often times is a good 20 - 30 minute walk and then those stations often times have machines that don't work if you want to pay with a credit card, so then you have to look around for an ATM. Most people don't carry large amounts of money on them to avoid becoming a target to be robbed. The needs to get with the times and make it easier for people to pay. I don't necessarily disagree w/ the point you're making, but you just had to throw the suburban thing in there, didn't you.... lol.... Also noticed how you said 20-30 minute" walk" instead of ride (c'mon man, you're slippin)..... I don't think you realize how many people (that are aren't from said suburban like areas) you included, by mentioning a 20-30 min walk to the nearest subway.... Aside from that, all I ever really wanted in this regard, was a metrocard reader.... They wouldn't have had to resort to charging a buck for a new metrocard (in an attempt to help keep the city clean), had this been the case..... Outside of an expired metrocard or one that simply has insufficient funds on it, the fact that a reader didn't (and will never) exist is why you had many folks buying extra metrocards in the first place..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted May 25, 2014 Share #12 Posted May 25, 2014 I don't necessarily disagree w/ the point you're making, but you just had to throw the suburban thing in there, didn't you.... lol.... Also noticed how you said 20-30 minute" walk" instead of ride (c'mon man, you're slippin)..... I don't think you realize how many people (that are aren't from said suburban like areas) you included, by mentioning a 20-30 min walk to the nearest subway.... Aside from that, all I ever really wanted in this regard, was a metrocard reader.... They wouldn't have had to resort to charging a buck for a new metrocard (in an attempt to help keep the city clean), had this been the case..... Outside of an expired metrocard or one that simply has insufficient funds on it, the fact that a reader didn't (and will never) exist is why you had many folks buying extra metrocards in the first place..... Well I know Riverdale is in New York City, but this is not what I would call an urban neighborhood at all. Yes, Downtown Riverdale is dense and walkable which could be considered urban, but everything about Riverdale is pretty suburban. Small town feel, everything closes early (just like in the suburbs), and there is only one store here that sells Metrocards, and if they're out, you're basically SOL. I said a 20 - 30 minute walk because in my case if I don't have any cash on my Metrocard, then that means I can't take the local bus to subway station, so I would have to walk through Fieldston and make my way over to the 242nd street, which is a pain in the ass, and it's a 20 - 30 minute walk. Then I would have to hope that the machines are working there, which isn't the case at times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted May 25, 2014 Share #13 Posted May 25, 2014 Do you think the new system will have tap out readers as well, or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 25, 2014 Share #14 Posted May 25, 2014 Well I know Riverdale is in New York City, but this is not what I would call an urban neighborhood at all. Yes, Downtown Riverdale is dense and walkable which could be considered urban, but everything about Riverdale is pretty suburban. Small town feel, everything closes early (just like in the suburbs), and there is only one store here that sells Metrocards, and if they're out, you're basically SOL. I said a 20 - 30 minute walk because in my case if I don't have any cash on my Metrocard, then that means I can't take the local bus to subway station, so I would have to walk through Fieldston and make my way over to the 242nd street, which is a pain in the ass, and it's a 20 - 30 minute walk. Then I would have to hope that the machines are working there, which isn't the case at times... - I get all that (about Riverdale not feeling like an urban nabe')... All I'm saying is, why did you go out of your way to bring up suburban neighborhoods to make your ultimate point about metrocards.... You could have omitted that & your point would have still been profound.... What you brought up about stores selling metrocards & having that far a walk to get to a subway, is not a problem exclusive to those that reside in "edge" communities..... As far the MVM's working, I don't have much of a problem w/ that anymore; but then again I don't refill the metrocard as often as I used to (which was every week).... As far the ones @ 242nd st, yeah, those MVM's have always been problematic; You even have the Westchester folks complaining about that.... As far as your point with walking... Well, that's one (of a few) reasons I carry a ton of change as backup... Riding NJT's locals gave me a greater respect for doing so; you're gonna need change if you don't get a ticket or w/e, because they have all sorts of odd amounts.... 2.35, 2.90, 3.80 (which pretty much means 2.25 or 2.40, 3.00, and 4.00, respectively, out of your avg. commuter out there) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theorem Ox Posted May 26, 2014 Share #15 Posted May 26, 2014 The best option is to integrate with Path's SmartLink. Give Conductors hand held readers on NJT,LIRR and MNR and we have something... Well, one would reasonably think that it would be the (relatively) easier and cheaper option to roll out considering the existing set-up that offers quite a bit of improvements on the customer's end until a better system can be put in place. PATH's SmartLink card is exactly what they are trying to avoid. Why? Because not all PATH customers use it. They are trying to avoid developing a system that has a major amount of back end are are attempting to develop a system that will be open source heavy such as current contact-less systems deployed by Visa/MasterCard, NFC enabled mobile phones compatible with a securely developed Tap and Go app or wireless provider payment and billing. SmartLink doesn't span across regional lines. They are attempting to get this right so that whatever card they deploy can lead the industry. I've heard arguments against SmartLink in the past that I could understand (sometimes at a stretch), but I don't buy most of the points that you specifically raised in your post. I'm not going to dissect everything you wrote point-by-point, but I will say this: Anybody who has lived in the NYC metropolitan area for some length of time knows how territorial each agency is (and sometimes that territorialism can reach the point of outright antagonism). This can even be openly seen in operating divisions within each agency by the general public. Perhaps the occasional time you might see some cooperation is in cases of catastrophic disaster. I view the slow rollout and the immediate out of hand dismissal of SmartLink as more of a pissing match between the agencies and as a reluctance to cede an inch of their own fiefdom. I would buy the argument that it may not be the best long term solution (not unlike the current Metrocard in use today), but it is a logical intermediate step given the current infrastructure in place which offers significantly more opportunities to improve the customer experience and allow for that better system to be developed over time. You can leapfrog in technology, but there are limits on how big of jump you can realistically make... I honestly believe that is what these transit agencies want (not just the MTA) - (a better chance of getting) access to more people's personal information.... The masses, I'd say still use cash to refill/purchase their metrocard; it's no accident that they're set to getting rid of the metrocard...... This to me represents the sign of the times, and as a result, we're gonna end up w/ a lot more people having to deal with the depression of having to climb themselves out of identity theft...... I don't wanna hear about how crime (which by that, they mean blue collar crime) is going down in this city, when white collar crimes will skyrocket in the upcoming years.... I suspect you're quite right about all this being "by design." Nobody really seems to think much about "unintended consequences" until it's too late. The way that the MTA is approaching this foreshadows that some of them will be quite negative indeed... Do you think the new system will have tap out readers as well, or no? I hope not. If they do for anything other than regional rail, it will likely mean an erosion of current privileges that we enjoy today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culver Posted May 26, 2014 Share #16 Posted May 26, 2014 I think it's the banks that want the personal info and the MTA is happy to go along with it since handing off the contact-less system to the financial sector for development means less responsibility for them (and less headaches about fixing issues). They've stated numerous times they prefer something where they're not the ones selling the cards and whatnot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted May 26, 2014 Share #17 Posted May 26, 2014 - I get all that (about Riverdale not feeling like an urban nabe')... All I'm saying is, why did you go out of your way to bring up suburban neighborhoods to make your ultimate point about metrocards.... You could have omitted that & your point would have still been profound.... What you brought up about stores selling metrocards & having that far a walk to get to a subway, is not a problem exclusive to those that reside in "edge" communities..... As far the MVM's working, I don't have much of a problem w/ that anymore; but then again I don't refill the metrocard as often as I used to (which was every week).... As far the ones @ 242nd st, yeah, those MVM's have always been problematic; You even have the Westchester folks complaining about that.... As far as your point with walking... Well, that's one (of a few) reasons I carry a ton of change as backup... Riding NJT's locals gave me a greater respect for doing so; you're gonna need change if you don't get a ticket or w/e, because they have all sorts of odd amounts.... 2.35, 2.90, 3.80 (which pretty much means 2.25 or 2.40, 3.00, and 4.00, respectively, out of your avg. commuter out there) Because suburban neighborhoods have always been shafted in terms of access to Metrocards. The current process is far too tedious and I shouldn't have to always purchase or re-fill Metrocards in Manhattan. When people want to stay in their communities and not go to the city, they should be able to purchase what they need when they need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 27, 2014 Share #18 Posted May 27, 2014 Because suburban neighborhoods have always been shafted in terms of access to Metrocards. The current process is far too tedious and I shouldn't have to always purchase or re-fill Metrocards in Manhattan. When people want to stay in their communities and not go to the city, they should be able to purchase what they need when they need it. Yeah, but the fact of the matter is, there is no "shafting" going on; That part of it is a bunch of malarkey.... The MTA isn't or didn't deliberately make it harder for urban suburbanites like yourself to obtain metrocards.... If that were the case, they would have never opted to have them for sale outside of MTA property (like at news stands & gas stations), period... You shouldn't have to suck it up (and again, it isn't just an urban suburbanite problem), but painting those that live in suburban-like areas as hapless victims is just as wrong.... You have a habit of doing that on these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted May 27, 2014 Share #19 Posted May 27, 2014 Yeah, but the fact of the matter is, there is no "shafting" going on; That part of it is a bunch of malarkey.... The MTA isn't or didn't deliberately make it harder for urban suburbanites like yourself to obtain metrocards.... If that were the case, they would have never opted to have them for sale outside of MTA property (like at news stands & gas stations), period... You shouldn't have to suck it up (and again, it isn't just an urban suburbanite problem), but painting those that live in suburban-like areas as hapless victims is just as wrong.... You have a habit of doing that on these forums. Oh is that right? What would you call it then if they only sell Metrocards in one store here in Riverdale when the nearest subway is a 20 - 30 minute walk? The other thing is you can only purchase Metrocards at the store in cash, while you can purchase them with a credit card at subway stations. The could offer those of us in suburban areas the option to reload our Metrocards remotely yet it's 2014 and the only option that they have is an automatically refillable Metrocard that isn't good for all types of Metrocards. Seems to be the case to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupojohn Posted May 27, 2014 Share #20 Posted May 27, 2014 Because suburban neighborhoods have always been shafted in terms of access to Metrocards. The current process is far too tedious and I shouldn't have to always purchase or re-fill Metrocards in Manhattan. When people want to stay in their communities and not go to the city, they should be able to purchase what they need when they need it. Well, everything else is easy access, so if one minor thing is a pain in the butt, so be it. Oh is that right? What would you call it then if they only sell Metrocards in one store here in Riverdale when the nearest subway is a 20 - 30 minute walk? The other thing is you can only purchase Metrocards at the store in cash, while you can purchase them with a credit card at subway stations. The could offer those of us in suburban areas the option to reload our Metrocards remotely yet it's 2014 and the only option that they have is an automatically refillable Metrocard that isn't good for all types of Metrocards. Seems to be the case to me... Walking is not a bad thing, you know. Good exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 27, 2014 Share #21 Posted May 27, 2014 Oh is that right? What would you call it then if they only sell Metrocards in one store here in Riverdale when the nearest subway is a 20 - 30 minute walk? The other thing is you can only purchase Metrocards at the store in cash, while you can purchase them with a credit card at subway stations. The could offer those of us in suburban areas the option to reload our Metrocards remotely yet it's 2014 and the only option that they have is an automatically refillable Metrocard that isn't good for all types of Metrocards. Seems to be the case to me... "Oh" yeah, that is right.... Spare me your pity party & theatrics b/c I'm not interested. The blame here should be on the other store owners within Riverdale for not being bothered to sell metrocards, not the MTA themselves for not bending over backwards that other store owners within Riverdale sell metrocards.... The fact that one store in Riverdale (taking your word for it) sells metrocards isn't an MTA problem. It's not uncommon to have store owners outright refusing to sell metrocards..... If you happen to live in an area where the majority of store owners have that attitude towards metrocard sales, than what it is you want me to tell you... Go take it up w/ the store owners in your suburban like area...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted May 27, 2014 Share #22 Posted May 27, 2014 "Oh" yeah, that is right.... Spare me your pity party & theatrics b/c I'm not interested. The blame here should be on the other store owners within Riverdale for not being bothered to sell metrocards, not the MTA themselves for not bending over backwards that other store owners within Riverdale sell metrocards.... The fact that one store in Riverdale (taking your word for it) sells metrocards isn't an MTA problem. It's not uncommon to have store owners outright refusing to sell metrocards..... If you happen to live in an area where the majority of store owners have that attitude towards metrocard sales, than what it is you want me to tell you... Go take it up w/ the store owners in your suburban like area...... This wouldn't be necessary if the had an online or remote system for payment and in 2014 they should. They themselves only offer select automatic refill Metrocards, so yes the is the problem and I've wrote in and complained to them on many occasions about this. They need to get with the times. Where there are subways, the MVM's are busted in too many locations too... The ones in Grand Central for example, problems can exist for months before they're fixed. Well, everything else is easy access, so if one minor thing is a pain in the butt, so be it. So says the man with two subway stations near him who complains about the idea of having less BxM1 service... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 27, 2014 Share #23 Posted May 27, 2014 This wouldn't be necessary if the had an online or remote system for payment and in 2014 they should. They themselves only offer select automatic refill Metrocards, so yes the is the problem and I've wrote in and complained to them on many occasions about this. They need to get with the times. Where there are subways, the MVM's are busted in too many locations too... The ones in Grand Central for example, problems can exist for months before they're fixed. That's not what I'm arguing... I'm arguing this notion that those that live in suburban-like areas are such these victims.... If the MTA had an online, or otherwise a remote system for metrocard payment, it wouldn't only benefit those that live in said areas.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted May 27, 2014 Share #24 Posted May 27, 2014 That's not what I'm arguing... I'm arguing this notion that those that live in suburban-like areas are such these victims.... If the MTA had an online, or otherwise a remote system for metrocard payment, it wouldn't only benefit those that live in said areas.... Of course it would benefit more people, but that's the whole point. If they want people to use the services, make it easier to access the services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOPRO Posted May 27, 2014 Share #25 Posted May 27, 2014 I view the slow rollout and the immediate out of hand dismissal of SmartLink as more of a pissing match between the agencies and as a reluctance to cede an inch of their own fiefdom. I would buy the argument that it may not be the best long term solution (not unlike the current Metrocard in use today), but it is a logical intermediate step given the current infrastructure in place which offers significantly more opportunities to improve the customer experience and allow for that better system to be developed over time. You can leapfrog in technology, but there are limits on how big of jump you can realistically make... Which is exactly why I made the point. There's no politics to wanting to eliminate jobs and save money. Take it from me I know. It's one of the recent battles of this contract. The Authority's main goal is to do away with the stations department. Anything that's only a stop gap measure and lacks long term viability keeps that goal from completely coming full circle. PATH and MTA cooperated very closely when it came to MVMs and the MetroCard itself, but in order for SmartLink to operate the way the MTA desires then SmartLink would either have to be redesigned which is costly when you plan to keep the current cards and technology currently being used active during the change or you rebuild from scratch which is essentially to go with a whole new system. Also the MTA wants NFC to be on the plate, but NFC hasn't quite taken off for many of reasons and iPhone hasn't adopted NFC at all. Why you may not see it the plan is for everything to be apart of one big piece of technology spanning different devices, chip sets and cards but following a universal protocol lead by the banks. Once again the goal is to eliminate as much back office as possible. SmartLink only transitions things and since that's the case they consider it a huge waste of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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