R211 Discussion Thread

[Ale188]

24 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

The A Cars motors aren't powerful enough to move the train by themselves. So the B cars have motors too. Dead motors seem to be common in NYCT cars with both the SMEEs and NTT, for that reason alone having only the A cars be powered isn't a good idea IMO. 

OK. makes more sense...kinda.

[Fan Railer]

On the B division, starting with the R179s, A1 cars have one unpowered truck with one free wheeling axle (no brakes) for CBTC purposes. On the 179s, it is on the blind end of the car, while on the 211s, it is on the cab end. All other axles are motorized on the unitized set.

On the A division NTTs, A cars are fully motorized, while the B cars have an unpowered truck. On the R188, the C car is just a B car, but with the CBTC related equipment on the free wheeling axle of the unpowered truck.

[Kamen Rider]

I don’t know if it was to reduce weight or what, but it really doesn’t feel all that different.

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Kamen Rider

[Fan Railer]

3 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

I don’t know if it was to reduce weight or what, but it really doesn’t feel all that different.

 

As mentioned, on the B division, the single unpowered truck per set is to facilitate the installation of CBTC related equipment. Specifically, an axle tachometer to measure distance travelled. This method is more effective than whatever the previous used was. That is why the axle the tach is installed on has to free wheel; no motor or brake shoe to induce possible wheelslip and throw off the distance measurement.

It's not going to feel different from a 100% motorized train because the motors installed are powerful enough to make up the difference in performance through a few software tweaks. The trains are scaled back from what they can really do anyway. We went from 4,600 hp (10 car SMEE) or 3,680 hp (8 car 75-foot) DC motor trains to ~6,000 hp AC motor NTTs on the B division, and yet the NTTs don't perform all that much better than the SMEE cars these days. I've heard stories of the OG NTTs (142s and 143s) hitting 70 mph on F5 track out on the flats when they were first testing, just to see what they could do, while today, everything I ride out there, SMEE or NTT maxes out around 47-49 mph. 

On the A division, going to 70% motorized trains with higher HP motors dropped hp from 4,600 to 4,200, but the A division NTTs are a bit lighter than their SMEE counterparts (owing to the two-less motors on the B cars), so that probably accounts for the minute performance difference. The benefit is fewer motors to maintain, resulting in cheaper operation. The authority just took advantage of the presence of the trailer truck on one of the B cars to install the CBTC equipment onto when the time came.

[Kamen Rider]

32 minutes ago, Fan Railer said:

As mentioned, on the B division, the single unpowered truck per set is to facilitate the installation of CBTC related equipment. Specifically, an axle tachometer to measure distance travelled. This method is more effective than whatever the previous used was. That is why the axle the tach is installed on has to free wheel; no motor or brake shoe to induce possible wheelslip and throw off the distance measurement.

It's not going to feel different from a 100% motorized train because the motors installed are powerful enough to make up the difference in performance through a few software tweaks. The trains are scaled back from what they can really do anyway. We went from 4,600 hp (10 car SMEE) or 3,680 hp (8 car 75-foot) DC motor trains to ~6,000 hp AC motor NTTs on the B division, and yet the NTTs don't perform all that much better than the SMEE cars these days. I've heard stories of the OG NTTs (142s and 143s) hitting 70 mph on F5 track out on the flats when they were first testing, just to see what they could do, while today, everything I ride out there, SMEE or NTT maxes out around 47-49 mph. 

On the A division, going to 70% motorized trains with higher HP motors dropped hp from 4,600 to 4,200, but the A division NTTs are a bit lighter than their SMEE counterparts (owing to the two-less motors on the B cars), so that probably accounts for the minute performance difference. The benefit is fewer motors to maintain, resulting in cheaper operation. The authority just took advantage of the presence of the trailer truck on one of the B cars to install the CBTC equipment onto when the time came.

meanwhile the distance measurements are completely off kilter on 4060-4069. Her AAS was going haywire yesterday, I had to reset it almost every other stop going uptown, to the point I just said f**k it and did it myself after 145th street. The train had no clue where it was. 

If that's what happens with the AAS count, which is also based on wheel rotations... using a tach for CBTC really needs to be rethought for the long-term future of the technology in general. 

[Fan Railer]

23 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

meanwhile the distance measurements are completely off kilter on 4060-4069. Her AAS was going haywire yesterday, I had to reset it almost every other stop going uptown, to the point I just said f**k it and did it myself after 145th street. The train had no clue where it was. 

If that's what happens with the AAS count, which is also based on wheel rotations... using a tach for CBTC really needs to be rethought for the long-term future of the technology in general. 

Well, knowing the way the TA specs things, it's ENTIRELY possible that the CBTC tach is completely unrelated to whatever equipment is used to track wheel rotations for the AAS. The AAS system is probably on a powered / braked axle, so every time there's slip/slide, it gets thrown off.

[bulk88]

On 7/26/2023 at 4:11 AM, R32 3838 said:

Also The R211T's (are rumored) to be only on the Rockaway park Shuttle due to the union not wanting them on the road due to the lack of of going in between cars to investigate a BIE (if it goes into a no clearance area when the Train goes BIE, The T/O can't go in between cars to investigate) 

 

 

A no clearance zone still has enough clearance to walk around a STOPPED train. Its just not safe to let a train pass a standing track worker. If the the tunnel was really "no clearance", the train body's suspension would swing, hit the wall or catwalk, and cause a derailment, and I dont see any daily! derailments happening and wrecked cars being towed to the yard with body damage.

[Ale188]

I think the MTA changed the hard shell to a soft shell on 4040-44.

 

[Around the Horn]

11 minutes ago, Ale188 said:

I think the MTA changed the hard shell to a soft shell on 4040-44.

 

That's what it looks like when you remove the hard shell

[Trainmaster5]

8 hours ago, bulk88 said:

A no clearance zone still has enough clearance to walk around a STOPPED train. Its just not safe to let a train pass a standing track worker. If the the tunnel was really "no clearance", the train body's suspension would swing, hit the wall or catwalk, and cause a derailment, and I dont see any daily! derailments happening and wrecked cars being towed to the yard with body damage.

Would you consider a river tube a “no clearance zone “ ? I can assure you that you cannot walk around a stopped train in the Joralemon tube in the IRT. If your train goes BIE in the tube you will have to climb up and down between each car in the consist to find the cause of the problem. The catwalks are crumbling even without making contact with a train. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying? Carry on.

[Ale188]

14 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

That's what it looks like when you remove the hard shell

Ah, I see

[LTA1992]

On 7/29/2023 at 6:12 AM, Kamen Rider said:

I don’t know if it was to reduce weight or what, but it really doesn’t feel all that different.

 

It was to definitely to reduce weight. I distinctly remember MTA board materials saying that was the reason before they were delivered.

[Calvin]

The 3rd R211 set: 4085-4089/4095-4099 is now in passenger service. 3 trains active at Pitkin Yard 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Calvin

[Ale188]

2 hours ago, Calvin said:

The 3rd R211 set: 4085-4089/4095-4099 is now in passenger service. 3 trains active at Pitkin Yard 

Wow! Third set already! That’s nice! 

[Chris89292]

Are we getting one set in service per month or 2?

[RandomRider0101]

3 minutes ago, Chris89292 said:

Are we getting one set in service per month or 2?

We're supposed to see 20 cars (2 trains) enter service per month. Hopefully that number increases in the future so that they can finish the order faster. But that's all dependent on Kawasaki having a consistent workforce at their plant(s).

[subwaycommuter1983]

17 minutes ago, Chris89292 said:

Are we getting one set in service per month or 2?

We are supposed to get at least 2 per month. The problem is that crews are refusing to get qualified to operate the r211's.

They refuse to understand that the cameras onboard the trains are for their safety as well as for the safety of the passengers.

Wherever you work, in any field (retail, education, healthcare, food service, etc), you are going to be surrounded by cameras. If people don't like the cameras, then they are going to have a hard time staying in the workforce.

Edited August 4, 2023 by subwaycommuter1983

[Bill from Maspeth]

1 hour ago, Chris89292 said:

Are we getting one set in service per month or 2?

The GOAL is to get 2 trainsets per month..............but there are no guarantees.

[Ale188]

The 4th train of 211s did some burn ins today. This vid features the 179 pilot!

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Ale188

[Chris89292]

It’s frustrating that the MTA still hasn’t added the updated 211 mechanics, are they really taking this long just to add the code or whatever the implement in the computer, the information is crucial, might as well just delete the green and red lights, they’re useless right now

[MJHmarc]

28 minutes ago, Chris89292 said:

It’s frustrating that the MTA still hasn’t added the updated 211 mechanics, are they really taking this long just to add the code or whatever the implement in the computer, the information is crucial, might as well just delete the green and red lights, they’re useless right now

Honestly the MTA priority is just that trains run, all the other bells and whistles are just an extra that could get update later when the whole order is complete/ when they get around to it. 

[FLX9304]

13 hours ago, Chris89292 said:

It’s frustrating that the MTA still hasn’t added the updated 211 mechanics, are they really taking this long just to add the code or whatever the implement in the computer, the information is crucial, might as well just delete the green and red lights, they’re useless right now

They’re not concerned about that right now. 

[NewFlyer 230]

Yesterday I was on Liberty Ave & Lefferts Blvd heading to the bank and I look up and see an R211 sitting at Lefferts Blvd Station. It was my very first time seeing an R211 in person so I figured I’d go upstairs and see if I could catch a short ride. Now of course when I want to ride, the train had to be taken out of service. I know I’ll have another shot in the future of course but darn I was a little sad because I had to use the R46 that was across the platform instead and I’ve already had my fair share of R46 rides as they were on the QBL for years. 

[Kamen Rider]

We’re still trying to get the announcements on the pilot set to play properly. Like I said, last time I was on it, I had to shut them off because I got tired of resetting it.

[Chris89292]

2 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

They’re not concerned about that right now. 

If that’s the case, then they should remove the red and green LED lights since it’s not useful at this moment, we shouldn’t be concerned about remove it either am I right or am I right……..

Edited August 5, 2023 by Chris89292