Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[MTA Researcher]

Check this out!

 

  Days: 207 - FR: CPW/8 Av/ Fulton St Exp

Nights: All Local 

 

 Rush Hr: 205 - Lefferts: Concourse Exp - CPW/8 Av/Fulton St Exp

Other Times except Nights: Concourse Lcl

Nights: Euclid Av - Lefferts 

 

  All Times: 179 - CI: QBL Exp- 53rd St -8 Av Lcl via W 4 switch and Culver 

 

M (Blue) Days: 168 - Metropolitan Av: CPW/ 8 Av Lcl via W 4 switch and Williamsburg

Nights: Myrtle Ave - Metropolitan Ave

 

 Rush Hr: BPB - CI: Concourse Lcl CPW Lcl/ 6 Av Exp - Brighton Lcl 

Other Times except Nights: 145 - CI

Nights: 205 - CI: Concourse Lcl - CPW/6 Av Exp - Brighton Lcl 

 

 Weekdayss: JC - Euclid Av: QBL Exp - 53rd St - 6 Av Lcl via W 4 switch and New WTC Connection to Hoyt-Schimmerhorn St - Fulton St Lcl

Weekends : via 63rd St

Nights: via 63rd St / All Local and Terminates at WTC

 

 Weekdays: 71 Av - Brighton Beache: QBL Lcl- 63rd St - 6 Av/Brighton Exp

Weekends and Nights: No Seevice use D F R

 

 Days: Astoria - Ci: Astoria Lcl - 60 St - Bway/4 Av Exp via Sea Beach

Niggts: All Local via via Bridge 

 

 Days: 71 Av - 95 St: QBL Lcl - 60 St - Bway/4 Av Exp (except 45 and 53 Sts via vanshook idea)

Nights: Whitehall St - 95 St: All Local

 

 All Times: 96 St/2 Av - CI: 2 Av Line - Bway/4 Av Lcl via Montague St Tunnel and West End

 

NOTES

 

Queens bound trains go Broadway Express and 2 Av trains go Broadway Local via 57 St/7 Av Flip

 

 stay unchanged

 

 is extended south of WTC via new connection to Euclid Av. Now  goes Fulton St Express and is extended to Lefferts.
 

The purpose of this proposal is to deinterline the system and give Queens more Midtown Manhattan Express  , while Bronx has .

 

What do you think?

[mrsman]

On 5/31/2022 at 2:33 AM, Vulturious said:

This is more of me hearing a lot of people, those that take the  and me asking them what they prefer. This also includes what is currently running along Brighton right now, that being the  for local service. If it was the opposite, the  would've been the full time line running around or maybe the , depending on what the MTA would've kept.

 

On 5/31/2022 at 12:20 AM, MTA Researcher said:

@Vulturious

I have a question, where is the proof that Brighton prefers Broadway over 6 Av?

If I see undeniable evidence; I will believe you. Please Show Me!

In my view, it is still very anecdotal that Brigthon riders prefer Broadway over 6th Ave.  I really think that most people are probably ambivalent about it.

My thoughts:

If you are coming from Southern Brooklyn and your train is heading to the 6th Ave express, it is far easier to transfer to get to a location that is close to the Broadway line in Manhattan than is the reverse ( i.e. your train is heading to the Broadway express, many areas near the 6th Ave stations are harder to reach).  The previous sentence is meant to address the area between City Hall and 23rd.  For Midtown, both lines run really close to each other, so assuming most people on the subway on the bridge are headed to Midtown, it really shouldn't matter. 

Based on the above, I think the cleanest easiest method to deinterline the DeKalb junction would be a  /  swap.  Both  and  run 24 hour serivice and both go to Coney Island.  This would mean that  and  run along the Brighton line and  and  run along the 4th Ave line. 

Brighton passengers can make a cross-platform transfer to for Downtown Brooklyn and the Financial District at DeKalb.  They can also transfer at Broadway-Laffayette to  to reach a station that is pretty close to every Broadway line station between City Hall and 14th.  The midtown Broadway stations (23rd and north) are a relatively close walk from the 6th Ave stations.  If a Brighton passenger is headed to Upper 2nd Ave or Astoria, a transfer can be made at Herald Square.  If a Brighton passenger wants to reach QBL, they can cross-platfrom transfer to  or  .

Sea Beach/West End/4th Ave passengers can make a cross-platform transfer to for Downtown Brooklyn and the Financial District at DeKalb.  The areas near the 6th Ave stations are a little harder to reach, but might still be achievable.  From , 6th Ave service can be reached by transferring to  at 9th,  at DeKalb, and  at Jay St.  Additionally,  are also at Jay St, and at Courtlandt for those who are headed to 8th Ave.  But these all require a transfer to   as none of these are directly connected to the 4th Ave express stations.  Broadway-Laffayette is close to the Prince St station and Bleecker St stations, transfer to  R, W, or 6 at Canal.  The midtown 6th Ave stations (23rd and north) are a relatively close walk from the Broadway stations.  If a Sea Beach/West End/4th Ave  passenger is headed to CPW, Washington Heights, or the Bronx,  a transfer can be made at Herald Square.  If a Sea Beach/West End/4th Ave passenger  wants to reach QBL, they can transfer to  or  at 34th, cross-platfrom transfer to just about anywhere or make the cross-platform transfer to at Lex/63rd.  So the only 6th Ave stations that are hard to reach are the 6th Ave stations south of 23rd, other than Broadway-Laffayette.  Grand street is somewhat walkable from Canal, and is very close to Bowery, but   is relatively infrequent.  West 4th is a decent walk from 8th St station.  14th/6th can be reached by transferring to  at Union Square.   And of course, a transfer can always be made at Atlantic Ave, as a last resort.  But the overall takeaway is that untangling DeKalb will bring so much benefit to more people, even if it means a little extra walking on the Manhattan end.

 

--------------

One very important point  to remember is that deinterlining certainly will avoid the backups due to the intermingling at DeKalb and will ultimately allow more trains to run on both the 6th Ave and Broadway express lines, especially if other deinterlining measures are taken at other chokepoints like Columbus Circle and 34th on the Broadway line.

But another important to remember is that another benefit is that more trains to your destination will be at one station.  This means that a train that you  would likely want would be more frequent and will certainly reduce your waiting time at the platform.

Example: Let's say you work in Midtown near 42nd and your home station is a Brighton express station.  Under the existing pattern, I can walk to Byant Park express platform and half the trains there will lead to my destination or I can walk to Times Square's Broadway express platform and half the trains there will lead to my destination.  The stations are only a block apart and the extra block is unlikely to make much difference.  But my average wait time at either could be significant, especially if I am unlucky to have just missed my  or  train and I now have to wait for two trains to pass, since the next train is likely a  or .

Now, let's say that the D/Q swap is implemented.  All Brighton trains will be served on the 6th Avenue line.  If I walk to Bryant Park, even if it is a block further, every possible train that reaches the Brighton stations will pass by the southbound express platform.  Every single one.  The wait time on the platform is minimized and most Midtown riders will have better service, even if their office is closer to Times Square.

 

 

[MTA Researcher]

6 hours ago, mrsman said:

 

In my view, it is still very anecdotal that Brigthon riders prefer Broadway over 6th Ave.  I really think that most people are probably ambivalent about it.

My thoughts:

If you are coming from Southern Brooklyn and your train is heading to the 6th Ave express, it is far easier to transfer to get to a location that is close to the Broadway line in Manhattan than is the reverse ( i.e. your train is heading to the Broadway express, many areas near the 6th Ave stations are harder to reach).  The previous sentence is meant to address the area between City Hall and 23rd.  For Midtown, both lines run really close to each other, so assuming most people on the subway on the bridge are headed to Midtown, it really shouldn't matter. 

Based on the above, I think the cleanest easiest method to deinterline the DeKalb junction would be a  /  swap.  Both  and  run 24 hour serivice and both go to Coney Island.  This would mean that  and  run along the Brighton line and  and  run along the 4th Ave line. 

Brighton passengers can make a cross-platform transfer to for Downtown Brooklyn and the Financial District at DeKalb.  They can also transfer at Broadway-Laffayette to  to reach a station that is pretty close to every Broadway line station between City Hall and 14th.  The midtown Broadway stations (23rd and north) are a relatively close walk from the 6th Ave stations.  If a Brighton passenger is headed to Upper 2nd Ave or Astoria, a transfer can be made at Herald Square.  If a Brighton passenger wants to reach QBL, they can cross-platfrom transfer to  or  .

Sea Beach/West End/4th Ave passengers can make a cross-platform transfer to for Downtown Brooklyn and the Financial District at DeKalb.  The areas near the 6th Ave stations are a little harder to reach, but might still be achievable.  From , 6th Ave service can be reached by transferring to  at 9th,  at DeKalb, and  at Jay St.  Additionally,  are also at Jay St, and at Courtlandt for those who are headed to 8th Ave.  But these all require a transfer to   as none of these are directly connected to the 4th Ave express stations.  Broadway-Laffayette is close to the Prince St station and Bleecker St stations, transfer to  R, W, or 6 at Canal.  The midtown 6th Ave stations (23rd and north) are a relatively close walk from the Broadway stations.  If a Sea Beach/West End/4th Ave  passenger is headed to CPW, Washington Heights, or the Bronx,  a transfer can be made at Herald Square.  If a Sea Beach/West End/4th Ave passenger  wants to reach QBL, they can transfer to  or  at 34th, cross-platfrom transfer to just about anywhere or make the cross-platform transfer to at Lex/63rd.  So the only 6th Ave stations that are hard to reach are the 6th Ave stations south of 23rd, other than Broadway-Laffayette.  Grand street is somewhat walkable from Canal, and is very close to Bowery, but   is relatively infrequent.  West 4th is a decent walk from 8th St station.  14th/6th can be reached by transferring to  at Union Square.   And of course, a transfer can always be made at Atlantic Ave, as a last resort.  But the overall takeaway is that untangling DeKalb will bring so much benefit to more people, even if it means a little extra walking on the Manhattan end.

 

--------------

One very important point  to remember is that deinterlining certainly will avoid the backups due to the intermingling at DeKalb and will ultimately allow more trains to run on both the 6th Ave and Broadway express lines, especially if other deinterlining measures are taken at other chokepoints like Columbus Circle and 34th on the Broadway line.

But another important to remember is that another benefit is that more trains to your destination will be at one station.  This means that a train that you  would likely want would be more frequent and will certainly reduce your waiting time at the platform.

Example: Let's say you work in Midtown near 42nd and your home station is a Brighton express station.  Under the existing pattern, I can walk to Byant Park express platform and half the trains there will lead to my destination or I can walk to Times Square's Broadway express platform and half the trains there will lead to my destination.  The stations are only a block apart and the extra block is unlikely to make much difference.  But my average wait time at either could be significant, especially if I am unlucky to have just missed my  or  train and I now have to wait for two trains to pass, since the next train is likely a  or .

Now, let's say that the D/Q swap is implemented.  All Brighton trains will be served on the 6th Avenue line.  If I walk to Bryant Park, even if it is a block further, every possible train that reaches the Brighton stations will pass by the southbound express platform.  Every single one.  The wait time on the platform is minimized and most Midtown riders will have better service, even if their office is closer to Times Square.

 

 

I agree with @mrsman on this one 6 Av must get Brighton and 4 Av goes to Broadway Express.

[MTA Researcher]

Anyway today I was contemplating on this proposal:

 

 Days: 207 - Far Rock: CPW/8 Av/Fulton St Exp

Nights: All Local

 Days: 179 - Lefferts: QBL/8 Av/Fulton St Exp via 53rd St

Nights: 8 Av/Fulton St Lcl

Blue M: Days: 168 - Metropolitan Av: CPW/8 Av Lcl via W 4 Switch and Williamsburg

Nights: Metropolitan Av - Myrtle Av: Shuttle

 

  All Times: 205 - CI: Concourse Lcl - CPW/6 Av Exp - Brighton Lcl

  Rush Hours: 205 - CI: Concourse/CPW/6 Av Exp - Brighton Lcl

 Weekdays: JC - Euclid Av: QBL Exp - 53rd St - 6 Av Lcl via W 4 switch and WTC-Hoyt Schimmerhorn connection - Fulton St Lcl

Weekends: via 63rd St

Late Nights: via 63rd St - QBL Lcl - Terminates at WTC

 Weekdays: 71 Av - Brighton Beach: QBL Lcl - 63rd St - 6 Av/Brighton Exp

Weekends and Nights: No Service use  

 

 All Times except Nights: Astoria- CI: Astoria Line - 60 St - Bway/4 Av Exp via Sea Beach

Nights: All Local via Manhattan Bridge

 All Times except Nights: 71 Av - Bay Ridge: QBL Lcl - 60 St - Bway/4 Av Exp (except 45 and 53 Sts via vanshook method)

Nights: Whitehall St - Bay Ridge: All Local

  All Times: 96 St/2 Av - CI: 2 Av Line - Bway/4 Av Lcl via Montague St and West End Lcl

  Weekdays: 96 St/2 Av - CI: 2 Av Line - Bway/4 Av Lcl via Montague St and West End Exp

(57 St/7 Av Flip)

 

I am just experimenting at this point. I know York St, East Bway, Delancey St and 2 Av are left empty… Culver could be covered by the  … oh wait… no one likes the  …

 

Any suggestions to fill in the gap?

[Amiri the subway guy]

So did y’all know that the  Might have considered deinterlining dekalb avenue but didn’t cause they didn’t want riders to lose one seat rides

[R32 3838]

18 minutes ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

So did y’all know that the  Might have considered deinterlining dekalb avenue but didn’t cause they didn’t want riders to lose one seat rides

They did about 20 years ago but people want a one seat ride. No one wants the   via 4th ave and via Brighton which would be the plan if they went forward with the plan.

[LGA Link N Train]

2 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

They did about 20 years ago but people want a one seat ride. No one wants the   via 4th ave and via Brighton which would be the plan if they went forward with the plan.

This might be a hot take, but I think the 211's incoming and IBX (once fully realized) would mitigate any potential problems with swapping either 2 routes passing through DeKalb.

[Reptile]

20 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

This might be a hot take, but I think the 211's incoming and IBX (once fully realized) would mitigate any potential problems with swapping either 2 routes passing through DeKalb.

I think rebuilding DeKalb in some sort of way would be enough to make it a more functional merge.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 6/14/2022 at 7:09 PM, Amiri the subway guy said:

So did y’all know that the  Might have considered deinterlining dekalb avenue but didn’t cause they didn’t want riders to lose one seat rides

 

On 6/14/2022 at 7:29 PM, R32 3838 said:

They did about 20 years ago but people want a one seat ride. No one wants the   via 4th ave and via Brighton which would be the plan if they went forward with the plan.

Well, no one at the  wants/wanted the  via 4th Avenue and the  via Brighton because “that’s the way we’ve always done it.” But 20 years ago, the 6th Ave tracks on the Manhattan Bridge were shut down for structural rehab, so, except for the  and the rush hour , everything in South Brooklyn ran in Manhattan via the Broadway Line. And all I kept reading on SubChat, SubTalk and the Straphangers’ message board back then was the return of the pre-2001  and service patterns once those tracks reopened. I seem to recall surprise from many posters on SubChat in 2004 (I used to go on that board a lot back then) when the  chose to route  via Brighton express and the  via the West End. They were expecting the reverse. I’m guessing the  never gave a deinterlined DeKalb junction any real serious consideration from the start. It just wasn’t (isn’t) in their nature to do it. With ridership still well down from pre-pandemic levels, it’s probably not worth considering now. But if ridership does bounce back to pre-pandemic levels, then it might be. Though the fact that they still stop you at the junction to ID the trains isn’t helping anything. Or somehow still manage to have s and s arrive there at the same time and run one right after the other followed by a long gap before the next two trains which also run one right after the other. In pm rush hours, no less.

[Reptile]

Would it be possible to operate some sort of 2nd Avenue subway service along the Astoria line by connecting to the 60th Street tunnel? It would help in deinterlining Broadway because if the was rerouted to 2nd Avenue north of 63rd then the and a 2nd avenue service could operate in Astoria and the could run on QBL. That would enable Astoria to run the at the same frequency with less service from Broadway, which would be helpful in the event of an Astoria extension to LGA.

[Vulturious]

1 hour ago, Reptile said:

Would it be possible to operate some sort of 2nd Avenue subway service along the Astoria line by connecting to the 60th Street tunnel? It would help in deinterlining Broadway because if the was rerouted to 2nd Avenue north of 63rd then the and a 2nd avenue service could operate in Astoria and the could run on QBL. That would enable Astoria to run the at the same frequency with less service from Broadway, which would be helpful in the event of an Astoria extension to LGA.

This definitely still wouldn't help all together. Sure, while Broadway Express service is going to see an increase in the amount of trains per hour, what about Broadway local service? The only other thing that is helping them in this scenario is no interference in service along the Broadway Local from express service. They will still be seeing the same kind of service along the 60 St tunnel regardless.

[Reptile]

34 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

This definitely still wouldn't help all together. Sure, while Broadway Express service is going to see an increase in the amount of trains per hour, what about Broadway local service? The only other thing that is helping them in this scenario is no interference in service along the Broadway Local from express service. They will still be seeing the same kind of service along the 60 St tunnel regardless.

Maybe if QBL was also deinterlined removing Bway from the line the could be rerouted to 2nd Av and run in Astoria with the then

[darkstar8983]

The problem is that 60 St runs only 23-24 TPH rush hours due to the curves between Lexington Av and 57 St-7 Av, and the unbalanced service distribution between QB and Astoria. In practice yes cutting off the QB-Broadway connection would mean more streamlined service but we are forgetting that Astoria can only run 15 TPH due to the Ditmars Blvd switch configuration and location of the switch to the terminal. If CBTC were active, maybe 18-19 TPH could be ran out of there but that’s still lower than 24 TPH that is currently provided. So you would still benefit from having a QB service, even if it’s not that frequent and only to/from Whitehall St (6 TPH capacity at that terminal when combined with a second Local service that goes thru to Brooklyn.

 

Yes, removing the 34 St merge is very beneficial to Broadway line riders because you can max out capacity on both tracks. However what is the capacity of lower Broadway (south of Canal St)?. I heard it’s only 20 TPH due to curves between city hall and Cortlandt st, between Rector and Whitehall Sts, and between court st and DeKalb Av. Can someone please comment on this? I know when the  and  ran in south Brooklyn in the 90s, this issue came up, since some  trains rush hours had to terminate at Canal St coming from Astoria and some  trains had to end at Whitehall St coming from 71 Av so that the  train could run to south Brooklyn.

the only benefit Broadway has right now of the express-local merge at 34 St is that the train service provided along the trunk is so low that trains from 6th Av could be rerouted in a pinch and it wouldn’t cause too many slowdowns. For example,  and  trains can be rerouted to 96 St if there is a blockade preventing trains from Brooklyn going to 6 Av via the Manhattan Bridge, running express with the , and rerouting the  via lower manhattan.

[Caelestor]

My understanding is that the max capacity of both the local and express tracks is 20 tph, due to DeKalb Junction and the Cortlandt St curve respectively. Whitehall St and Bay Ridge can only turn 8 tph and 10 tph respectively, but any excess trains should just run to / from Sea Beach like  trains currently do, so the only restriction is the fleet availability.

During the AM rush, there are 10  + 1  trains coming from 96 St and 8  + 7  + 9  trains coming from Queens. These combine into 19  trains on the express tracks and 16  trains on the local tracks. Going to 40 tph (14 percent capacity increase) is achievable by running more  trains and shifting some  trains to 96 St, and halving the merges will reduce delays and enable the additional capacity:

• 4  from Astoria, 6 from 96 St
• 10  from 96 St
• 9  from QBL
• 11  from Astoria

Long-term, the  should just run together up SAS, the  should take over all of Astoria with additional short-turns at Queens Plaza, and all QBL trains should run via 53 or 63 Sts only, but that's a topic for another thread.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 6/28/2022 at 7:03 PM, Caelestor said:

My understanding is that the max capacity of both the local and express tracks is 20 tph, due to DeKalb Junction and the Cortlandt St curve respectively. Whitehall St and Bay Ridge can only turn 8 tph and 10 tph respectively, but any excess trains should just run to / from Sea Beach like  trains currently do, so the only restriction is the fleet availability.

During the AM rush, there are 10  + 1  trains coming from 96 St and 8  + 7  + 9  trains coming from Queens. These combine into 19  trains on the express tracks and 16  trains on the local tracks. Going to 40 tph (14 percent capacity increase) is achievable by running more  trains and shifting some  trains to 96 St, and halving the merges will reduce delays and enable the additional capacity:

• 4  from Astoria, 6 from 96 St
• 10  from 96 St
• 9  from QBL
• 11  from Astoria

Long-term, the  should just run together up SAS, the  should take over all of Astoria with additional short-turns at Queens Plaza, and all QBL trains should run via 53 or 63 Sts only, but that's a topic for another thread.

Yes, I could see this as a pretty good way to get a good bit more capacity on the main Broadway with fewer days. And I agree with your long term proposal, though you either cut off the local stops west of Roosevelt’s access to LIC (  local via 63rd)  or you risk running 8-car trains on the express (  express via 63rd).

I presume the  and  routes would be unchanged in this scenario.

[Wallyhorse]

On 6/28/2022 at 7:03 PM, Caelestor said:

My understanding is that the max capacity of both the local and express tracks is 20 tph, due to DeKalb Junction and the Cortlandt St curve respectively. Whitehall St and Bay Ridge can only turn 8 tph and 10 tph respectively, but any excess trains should just run to / from Sea Beach like  trains currently do, so the only restriction is the fleet availability.

During the AM rush, there are 10  + 1  trains coming from 96 St and 8  + 7  + 9  trains coming from Queens. These combine into 19  trains on the express tracks and 16  trains on the local tracks. Going to 40 tph (14 percent capacity increase) is achievable by running more  trains and shifting some  trains to 96 St, and halving the merges will reduce delays and enable the additional capacity:

• 4  from Astoria, 6 from 96 St
• 10  from 96 St
• 9  from QBL
• 11  from Astoria

Long-term, the  should just run together up SAS, the  should take over all of Astoria with additional short-turns at Queens Plaza, and all QBL trains should run via 53 or 63 Sts only, but that's a topic for another thread.

This is why what should have been done after 9/11 was to connect the line tracks at Chambers to the Montague line at Cortlandt as it would be a very short stretch to do that (and something I'd be looking at doing now if possible, with the  taking over the Montague line 24/7 and perhaps as a 24/7 Brighton Express to Brighton Beach (replacing the  that perhaps returns to the West End, running 9th Avenue-145 weekdays and Bay Parkway-Bedford Park Boulevard rush hours, running express on West End in the peak direction)

As part of this, City Hall would become the terminal for a train that would operate at all times between City Hall and 71st-Continental with during rush hours some trains beginning on the Tunnel Level of Canal Street, though possibly with City Hall Station closed during overnights and all trains during those hours beginning at Canal.  The would continue to Astoria as an express all the way at all times and the would run as it normally does at present.  

The  in this scenario can become brown and run via the Nassau line to Canal Street (weekdays) that has the northbound tracks at Canal and Bowery re-activated so this  can terminate there on weekdays, mostly on what currently is the northbound track and was the "southbound express" track in the old setup (what I would be doing here was not possible until the work was done to do the current setup at Canal), returning Canal on the Nassau Line to being a terminal at least on weekdays (some  trains would terminate on the "northbound express" track, but only at peak hours). This  would be based out of East New York and would include in-service yard runs that would end and begin at Broadway Junction and run on the to Canal before going into its normal setup.  As part of this, the would be cut back to Chambers (set up so people looking for Fulton or Broad can do a same platform transfer at Canal or Chambers Street to the  in most cases).  There would still be a limited number of trains that end and begin at Broad Street during rush hours.  Nights and weekends, this  would be extended to Metropolitan Avenue and absorb the current  late-night and weekend shuttles.  

That to me would work. 

[Reptile]

Here's my very long-term proposal for the SAS

125th St/Bway to Merrick Blvd. Starts as a 125th St crosstown, then 2nd Avenue local to Hanover Sq. Runs as Fulton Express to Broadway Junction where it splits off and runs on Atlantic Ave (b/c the Atlantic Branch will become a shuttle when East Side Access opens) to Jamaica Center and then an extension to Merrick Blvd with the .

ALTERNATIVE: The runs local on Fulton Street to Euclid Ave, the runs Fulton express to Merrick Blvd.

Forest Hills 71st Ave to Euclid Ave. Runs local on QBL replacing the to a new 4-track tunnel on 58th St, then 2nd Avenue local to Hanover Square and Fulton Local to Euclid Ave. Does not run late nights.

College Point to Brighton Beach. Operates local on a new Northern Blvd line in Queens to the 58th St tunnel. 2nd Avenue Express to Grand St, then Manhattan Bridge and Brighton Express. Late nights runs College Point-14th St.

Springfield Blvd to Coney Island. Operates on the LIE, swings north to Flushing Main Street, then express on Northern Blvd, only stopping at Main St, Willets Point, Junction Blvd, and Queens Blvd to 58th St tunnel. 2nd Av express in Manhattan to Grand Street, runs over the Manhattan Bridge to the Brighton local.

Other changes:

now runs 145th St/BPB to Metropolitan Ave replacing the

now runs Norwood to Broadway Junction, or to Merrick Blvd replacing the alternatively. This was my original idea but Downtown Brooklyn access is important, and the would become a very long line running through 4 boroughs.

^these two along with may also be deinterlined on CPW.

runs from the Bronx via 3rd Ave to Coney Island. is rerouted to West End, deinterlining DeKalb Ave

Runs from LGA (extention from Astoria) to Bay Ridge. A new yard would be constructed on the LGA extention to avoid the issue that got the removed from Astoria in 1987. would be discontinued

would return, running from Forest Hills to Church Ave via Culver express. Rush hours it would be extended in the peak direction to Kings Highway.

would be changed, a third track would be added on the rest of the Jamaica line. It would be a peak direction service like the but it would keep its name to not confuse people.

[MTA Researcher]

Hey guys, tell me something, is it a good idea to flip 6 Av? Upper Manhattan/Bronx trains via Local and Queens trains via Express?

 

This idea crosses my head because my pattern view would have CPW/8 Av Exp  and CPW/6 Av Lcl  , and then  via QBL Exp/53rd - 8 Av Lcl and  via QBL Exp / 53rd St - 6 Av Exp,  via QBL Lcl via 63rd - 6 Av Exp. 
 

There’s more to Behold!

 

Please let me know your thoughts.  

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by MTA Researcher

[Vulturious]

57 minutes ago, MTA Researcher said:

Hey guys, tell me something, is it a good idea to flip 6 Av? Upper Manhattan/Bronx trains via Local and Queens trains via Express?

 

This idea crosses my head because my pattern view would have CPW/8 Av Exp  and CPW/6 Av Lcl  , and then  via QBL Exp/53rd - 8 Av Lcl and  via QBL Exp / 53rd St - 6 Av Exp,  via QBL Lcl via 63rd - 6 Av Exp. 
 

There’s more to Behold!

 

Please let me know your thoughts.  

 

So you want to have 3 different lines operating on both 6 Av Express and at this point also along the Manhattan Bridge to Atlantic Av along with 3 lines running express along QBL?

Before I get into that, here are some other things I need to point out:

• 50 St upper level is going to lose direct access to and from CPW
• Are  and  trains still going to serve Concourse or would that change?
• What is serving SAS? I would assume the ?
• If the  is serving SAS, what happens to Astoria? While the  would be a simple solution, it needs yard access so it has to run into South Brooklyn somewhere along a line with easy yard access, West End being the perfect candidate.
• What happens to the ? 

With all that out of the way, let's discuss the issue about 3 lines serving the same tracks. Broadway is a good example with the  along 60 St from Queens to Herald Square. However, it seems to be worse with both 6 Av and QBL. I point out QBL because the  is most likely still going to need to run around. The line is very much needed ever since its debut, I dare say a lot more compared to running the . Back then, the MTA got away with running 3 different lines through the Manhattan Bridge and 6 Av on the same tracks because it was necessary and temporary, it isn't really needed here. Now with the  and  running local, sure dwell times might've decrease with CPW de-interlined, but it probably isn't that much of a difference because it's both the  and  running local making more stops, definitely hurts riders depending on the . Definitely hurts as much along QBL with the  serving the same tracks. Probably just me, maybe someone else has some more points that I might have missed. Regardless, I think it's a bad idea to reintroduce the  in any shape unless it is necessary, in this scenario, it definitely isn't.

[MTA Researcher]

3 hours ago, Vulturious said:

So you want to have 3 different lines operating on both 6 Av Express and at this point also along the Manhattan Bridge to Atlantic Av along with 3 lines running express along QBL?

Before I get into that, here are some other things I need to point out:

• 50 St upper level is going to lose direct access to and from CPW
• Are  and  trains still going to serve Concourse or would that change?
• What is serving SAS? I would assume the ?
• If the  is serving SAS, what happens to Astoria? While the  would be a simple solution, it needs yard access so it has to run into South Brooklyn somewhere along a line with easy yard access, West End being the perfect candidate.
• What happens to the ? 

With all that out of the way, let's discuss the issue about 3 lines serving the same tracks. Broadway is a good example with the  along 60 St from Queens to Herald Square. However, it seems to be worse with both 6 Av and QBL. I point out QBL because the  is most likely still going to need to run around. The line is very much needed ever since its debut, I dare say a lot more compared to running the . Back then, the MTA got away with running 3 different lines through the Manhattan Bridge and 6 Av on the same tracks because it was necessary and temporary, it isn't really needed here. Now with the  and  running local, sure dwell times might've decrease with CPW de-interlined, but it probably isn't that much of a difference because it's both the  and  running local making more stops, definitely hurts riders depending on the . Definitely hurts as much along QBL with the  serving the same tracks. Probably just me, maybe someone else has some more points that I might have missed. Regardless, I think it's a bad idea to reintroduce the  in any shape unless it is necessary, in this scenario, it definitely isn't.

 168 - CI: CPW/6 Av Lcl via Culver
 BPB/145 - Bway Junction: Concourse Lcl (Weekdays) CPW/6 Av Lcl - Jamaica Exp

(is it possible to turn Jamaica line into 4 tracks; 2 Lcl 2 Exp?)

 179 - CI: QBL Exp via 53rd - 6 Av Exp - Brighton Lcl

 71 Av - Brighton Beach: QBL Lcl via 63rd - 6 Av/Brighton Exp

(I) LGA - Hanover Sq: Astoria/2 Av Lcl 

[M] 125 St - Metropolitan Av: via Crosstown 2 Av - 2 Av/Jamaica Exp

 Dyre Av - CI: Bronx Lcl - 2 Av Exp via Montague St - 4 Av Lcl via West End

 LGA - CI: Astoria Exp (weekdays) via 60 St - Bway/4 Av Exp via Sea Beach

 71 Av - Bay Ridge: QBL Lcl via 60 St - Bway/4 Av Exp (4 Av Lcl south 36 St via vanshook switch method)

 125 - Euclid Av: Crosstown SAS - Bway Lcl via Montague St Tunnel - Fulton St Lcl

(PLEASE NOTE: 6 Av and Broadway in this idea were flipped, because I intend to make  fully express in Manhattan while  fully local in Manhattan. Maybe it’s my OCD but having them CPW Lcl/6 Av Exp to me seems pointless and a waste… Also I intend to give Queens direct access to Midtown Express via Broadway and 6 Av.)

 

Lastly I wanted to compliment SAS with a fourth line

[H] via 2 Av Lcl coming from Queens. Should this be done?

 

Overall how did I do in my comeback?  

[Vulturious]

11 hours ago, MTA Researcher said:

 168 - CI: CPW/6 Av Lcl via Culver
 BPB/145 - Bway Junction: Concourse Lcl (Weekdays) CPW/6 Av Lcl - Jamaica Exp

(is it possible to turn Jamaica line into 4 tracks; 2 Lcl 2 Exp?)

 179 - CI: QBL Exp via 53rd - 6 Av Exp - Brighton Lcl

 71 Av - Brighton Beach: QBL Lcl via 63rd - 6 Av/Brighton Exp

(I) LGA - Hanover Sq: Astoria/2 Av Lcl 

[M] 125 St - Metropolitan Av: via Crosstown 2 Av - 2 Av/Jamaica Exp

 Dyre Av - CI: Bronx Lcl - 2 Av Exp via Montague St - 4 Av Lcl via West End

 LGA - CI: Astoria Exp (weekdays) via 60 St - Bway/4 Av Exp via Sea Beach

 71 Av - Bay Ridge: QBL Lcl via 60 St - Bway/4 Av Exp (4 Av Lcl south 36 St via vanshook switch method)

 125 - Euclid Av: Crosstown SAS - Bway Lcl via Montague St Tunnel - Fulton St Lcl

(PLEASE NOTE: 6 Av and Broadway in this idea were flipped, because I intend to make  fully express in Manhattan while  fully local in Manhattan. Maybe it’s my OCD but having them CPW Lcl/6 Av Exp to me seems pointless and a waste… Also I intend to give Queens direct access to Midtown Express via Broadway and 6 Av.)

 

Lastly I wanted to compliment SAS with a fourth line

[H] via 2 Av Lcl coming from Queens. Should this be done?

 

Overall how did I do in my comeback?  

Uh... this was supposed to be a comeback? Doesn't seem like it, I'm honestly a little more confused. Before I move onto the rest of this, no it is not possible to convert Jamaica Av EL into a 4 track line, the street is too narrow for this to happen.

With that out of the way, I should start off with 6 Av and every single issue happening here. The first issue here is the  and  are going to be crossing directly over the  and vice versa. The current setup has CPW and 57 St running directly onto the 6 Av express tracks with Queens connection via 53 St directly to the local along with 57 St as well. However, this setup forces  and  trains to merge with the  in order to even get onto 6 Av in the first place, then for both the  and  to switch directly crossing over each other between Herald Square and Bryant Park. This sounds like a nightmare, I get the feeling a lot of reconstruction is going to happen where CPW connects to 6 Av local and vice versa with 53 St connection. That isn't worth the investment at all, it is too much of a hassle for everyone involved, not many people are going to benefit from this. One other thing that I'm confused about with 6 Av is what is serving the branch east of Broadway Junction?

I feel like adding in the H as another SAS line would make things much more complicating. Is this new (I) train running via 60 St? If so, that's just another headache to deal with since 60 St doesn't need another line running around. Not only are we still dealing with the  and , both of which now runs express along Broadway which is a plus for QBL riders, but the (I) gets in the way. There's another annoying merge that needs to be addressed, that being between the  and . Both of them are running via Montague St but only for a short duration, much like many other merges happening, it's going to be annoying. I'm going to assume SAS Crosstown isn't going to be more than 2 tracks so that's another annoying area to deal with even with it being for a short duration. I also get the feeling another conversion is happening where Broadway service going north is being switched, I still don't really know if it's worth the investment.

Overall, nothing seems to be improved here, I feel like I'm looking at a foamer's dream (no offense). There are a lot of areas that doesn't really improve along with a lot of changes happening that isn't worth the time, there's just too much going on.

[MTA Researcher]

4 hours ago, Vulturious said:

Uh... this was supposed to be a comeback? Doesn't seem like it, I'm honestly a little more confused. Before I move onto the rest of this, no it is not possible to convert Jamaica Av EL into a 4 track line, the street is too narrow for this to happen.

With that out of the way, I should start off with 6 Av and every single issue happening here. The first issue here is the  and  are going to be crossing directly over the  and vice versa. The current setup has CPW and 57 St running directly onto the 6 Av express tracks with Queens connection via 53 St directly to the local along with 57 St as well. However, this setup forces  and  trains to merge with the  in order to even get onto 6 Av in the first place, then for both the  and  to switch directly crossing over each other between Herald Square and Bryant Park. This sounds like a nightmare, I get the feeling a lot of reconstruction is going to happen where CPW connects to 6 Av local and vice versa with 53 St connection. That isn't worth the investment at all, it is too much of a hassle for everyone involved, not many people are going to benefit from this. One other thing that I'm confused about with 6 Av is what is serving the branch east of Broadway Junction?

I feel like adding in the H as another SAS line would make things much more complicating. Is this new (I) train running via 60 St? If so, that's just another headache to deal with since 60 St doesn't need another line running around. Not only are we still dealing with the  and , both of which now runs express along Broadway which is a plus for QBL riders, but the (I) gets in the way. There's another annoying merge that needs to be addressed, that being between the  and . Both of them are running via Montague St but only for a short duration, much like many other merges happening, it's going to be annoying. I'm going to assume SAS Crosstown isn't going to be more than 2 tracks so that's another annoying area to deal with even with it being for a short duration. I also get the feeling another conversion is happening where Broadway service going north is being switched, I still don't really know if it's worth the investment.

Overall, nothing seems to be improved here, I feel like I'm looking at a foamer's dream (no offense). There are a lot of areas that doesn't really improve along with a lot of changes happening that isn't worth the time, there's just too much going on.

Thank you for pointing that out. You didn’t offend me, instead you gave me insight   You see,  this was an idea I had in the mind for a long time, but I wondered how possible it could be.

 

Think of these proposals as experimental. I really enjoy your criticism. You teach me things I don’t see clearly. With that being said I want to show you an idea. Let’s keep discussing more.

 

 207 - Far Rockaway: CPW/8 Av/Fulton St Exp

 JC - Lefferts: QBL/8 Av/Fulton St Exp via 53rd St

[M] 168 - Metropolitan Av: CPW/8 Av Lcl vía W4 switch and Williamsburg

 

 205 - CI: Concourse Exp (Weekdays) CPW/6 Av Exp via Brighton Lcl

179 - CI: QBL Exp via 53rd St - 6 Av/4 Av Lcl vía W4 switch/Chambers St/Montague St Tunnel and West End

 71 Av - Brighton Beach: QBL Lcl via 63rd St - 6 Av/Brighton Exp

 

(I) 125  - Euclid Av: via Crosstown SAS - 2 Av Lcl via Montague St and Fulton St Lcl

 Dyre Av - CI: vía Bronx Lcl - 2 Av Exp vía Rutgers St and Culver Lcl/Exp

 

 Astoria or LGA- CI: Astoria Lcl via 60 st - Bway/4 Av Exp vía Sea Beach 

 71 Av - Bay Ridge: QBL Lcl vía 60 St - Bway/4 Av Exp (Lcl south 36 via va shook switch idea)

 BPB/145 - City Hall: Concourse/CPW/Bway Lcl 

 is fine as is

 is fine as is

 replaces  

 is fine as is

 

Awaiting for your analysis and rating of this idea :)

[Theli11]

On 7/20/2022 at 10:40 PM, MTA Researcher said:

Thank you for pointing that out. You didn’t offend me, instead you gave me insight   You see,  this was an idea I had in the mind for a long time, but I wondered how possible it could be.

 

Think of these proposals as experimental. I really enjoy your criticism. You teach me things I don’t see clearly. With that being said I want to show you an idea. Let’s keep discussing more.

 

 207 - Far Rockaway: CPW/8 Av/Fulton St Exp

 JC - Lefferts: QBL/8 Av/Fulton St Exp via 53rd St

[M] 168 - Metropolitan Av: CPW/8 Av Lcl vía W4 switch and Williamsburg

 

 205 - CI: Concourse Exp (Weekdays) CPW/6 Av Exp via Brighton Lcl

179 - CI: QBL Exp via 53rd St - 6 Av/4 Av Lcl vía W4 switch/Chambers St/Montague St Tunnel and West End

 71 Av - Brighton Beach: QBL Lcl via 63rd St - 6 Av/Brighton Exp

 

(I) 125  - Euclid Av: via Crosstown SAS - 2 Av Lcl via Montague St and Fulton St Lcl

 Dyre Av - CI: vía Bronx Lcl - 2 Av Exp vía Rutgers St and Culver Lcl/Exp

 

 Astoria or LGA- CI: Astoria Lcl via 60 st - Bway/4 Av Exp vía Sea Beach 

 71 Av - Bay Ridge: QBL Lcl vía 60 St - Bway/4 Av Exp (Lcl south 36 via va shook switch idea)

 BPB/145 - City Hall: Concourse/CPW/Bway Lcl 

 is fine as is

 is fine as is

 replaces  

 is fine as is

 

Awaiting for your analysis and rating of this idea

I think what I'm confused about is the purpose of these suggestions. Usually when people want to switch one route with another it's supposed to have an advantage for it. I doubt 8th Av needs 2 express services over 2 locals, and when you have the 1 local service locked in at 12 TPH also merging with the . I feel like service changes should have a good reason why. 

[MTA Researcher]

1 hour ago, Theli11 said:

I think what I'm confused about is the purpose of these suggestions. Usually when people want to switch one route with another it's supposed to have an advantage for it. I doubt 8th Av needs 2 express services over 2 locals, and when you have the 1 local service locked in at 12 TPH also merging with the . I feel like service changes should have a good reason why. 

I’m just experimenting by sharing ideas that cross my mind and having my critics correct me.

 

I put  on express because they go via Fulton St Line to South Queens.

 

As for 8 Av Lcl M and  … Hmm do you have any insights or ideas you want to share?

 

Looking forward to your reply

[mrsman]

Reddit has some good pictures of a track bridge over teh 149th-GC station that is being used to facilitate construction of an elevator:

It led me to thinking about the possibilites of implementing similar track bridge along the 50th st station of the AC line in order to better incorporate deinterlining along CPW.  My comment on reddit is below:

 

 

Thank you for posting this picture as it allows us to see what is going on. It really gives more space to the station.

Add'l thoughts:

1) Could something like this be made permanent if new switches between express and local track were added just to the south of the station? IMO, the only reason to run any trains on express track is to make the merge with easier, will stop at 138th and will not, so it allows to merge into the stream of traffic behind a 4 if they both arrive at the same time.     

 

2) This rail bridge has given me other ideas in hypothetical plans. A de-interlining plan to have AC run express on CPW and BD run local.* This avoids merging issues at Columbus Circle. AC continue as the 8th Ave express while E runs as the sole 8th Ave local. AC continue toward the Cranberry tunnel and E terminates at WTC, thereby avoiding the merges at Canal St as well. This has one small problem with regards to no access to 50th st station, since both A and C would skip it on the 8th Av express tracks. But what if the 8th Ave local tracks were simply closed in the area (i.e. blocked from trains running through). This means that any Downtown train on the local tracks at 59th must continue toward 53rd st and follow BD line and any Uptown train on the local tracks at 42nd must continue toward 53rd st and follow E line. Even emergency reroutes could not continue on the local between 42nd and 59th. Then there would be no trains running local at the 50th st upper level, so a bridge (like the one at 149th -GC) over the current local tracks could be built to turn 50th into a stop for the AC express. And as a plus, it seems to allow for a wider platform as well.

 

* The full plan involves:

running as current, except no late night service. 

running 168th St to Manhattan Bridge (and into Brooklyn) at all times except late nights, running local on CPW.
Late nights B is extended to 207th St.

running from 205th St, Bronx to Euclid Av, Brooklyn at all times except late nights. Express in Manhattan, local in Brooklyn. Rush hours will run express along Grand Concourse in the dominant direction. Late nights, is extended to serve Lefferts and Far Rockway in place of the A.   

running from Bedford Park Blvd to Manhattan Bridge (and into Brooklyn) as a local train along CPW. No night or weekend service. 

The plan maintains current CPW services, while avoiding merging at Columbus Circle (and at Canal along the 8th Ave line). During daytime hours, there is one express from Inwood and one local from Washington Heights, and one express from Bronx and one local from Bronx. Nights and weekends all services are maintained, except the local from Bronx. Late nights, we have an express along CPW that heads to Bronx and a local along CPW that heads to Inwood.