Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Wallyhorse]

5 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Why? It’s not that busy on the weekends.

Right.  If anything, I would have the if not going fully up 6th Avenue terminate at West 4th and have the go local on 6th Avenue (with the using the express tracks to turn north of West 4th), though ideally, I would have the go to 96th/2nd weekends if only to keep 6th Avenue service in order then.  

[Lance]

Chambers St is a better terminal than W 4 Street. Nothing's impacted with the on Nassau St and it affords the line more transfers to Broadway and Lexington Ave. A W 4 Street terminus forces a double merge for the , thus slowing down the service. Also, the only thing gained by such an extension is a new transfer to the  and . Hardly worth it in my opinion.

[Wallyhorse]

1 hour ago, Lance said:

Chambers St is a better terminal than W 4 Street. Nothing's impacted with the on Nassau St and it affords the line more transfers to Broadway and Lexington Ave. A W 4 Street terminus forces a double merge for the , thus slowing down the service. Also, the only thing gained by such an extension is a new transfer to the  and . Hardly worth it in my opinion.

True, however, we are talking nights and weekends when there are fewer trains overall.

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

True, however, we are talking nights and weekends when there are fewer trains overall.

yeah, and on nights and weekends you're better off sending trains to Chambers Street

[Coney Island Av]

I'm going to share another proposal- this one is a bit foamish, however. Thoughts?

The Liberty Av EL is demolished and replaced with a parallel subway running via Pitkin Av/Linden Blvd. Underserved transit deserts in Eastern Queens will now have subway access to Manhattan. 

: Normal route, 207 St to Far Rockaway.

: 168 St, extended to 234 St-Cambria Heights near the Nassau County line via Linden Blvd, Fulton St express days, peak express between Cross Bay Blvd and Francis Lewis Blvd.

: Replaces  as Fulton Local, to Francis Lewis Blvd rush hrs, other times to Cross Bay Blvd. 

: Extended to Howard Beach-JFK via the RBB, with three rush hour trains running from Rockaway Park to 2 Av-Houston. Other times, this is replaced by split  service between the two Rockaway terminus. 

 

[officiallyliam]

19 minutes ago, Coney Island Av said:

I'm going to share another proposal- this one is a bit foamish, however. Thoughts?

The Liberty Av EL is demolished and replaced with a parallel subway running via Pitkin Av/Linden Blvd. Underserved transit deserts in Eastern Queens will now have subway access to Manhattan. 

: Normal route, 207 St to Far Rockaway.

: 168 St, extended to 234 St-Cambria Heights near the Nassau County line via Linden Blvd, Fulton St express days, peak express between Cross Bay Blvd and Francis Lewis Blvd.

: Replaces  as Fulton Local, to Francis Lewis Blvd rush hrs, other times to Cross Bay Blvd. 

: Extended to Howard Beach-JFK via the RBB, with three rush hour trains running from Rockaway Park to 2 Av-Houston. Other times, this is replaced by split  service between the two Rockaway terminus. 

 

Why demolish the Liberty El? Liberty Avenue has grown around the subway become a bustling commercial strip. Elevateds seem bad, but remember Jamaica Avenue: businesses thought the demolition of the el would be the best thing since sliced bread; the eventual demolition sucked potential customers away from Jamaica Avenue and bankrupted their business. I agree, though, with following through on the IND Second System plan to extend the Fulton Line, but I'd do it like this:

Fulton Express to Far Rockaway. (don't split the A; you'll leave Far Rockaway underserved and Rockaway Park overserved)

Fulton Express to Lefferts Blvd.

to Rockaway Park stays as it is.

Fulton Local to Cambria Heights. (via a two-track line under Pitkin and Linden. three-tracks is probably overkill, and I don't think there will be enough stops on the existing Fulton line and the Cambria line to make getting to Manhattan too slow; the Fulton express will have 2x the capacity for Cambria Hts riders who need express service.)

I disagree on the RBB, at least in the short term. If we're going to do expansions off the Fulton Line it should be 1. connecting the SAS, 2. going to Eastern Queens, then maybe 3. the RBB. Plus, a local from Rockaway to Manhattan is certainly not going to be more attractive than the current setup. Don't you think most Rockaway riders will bail at Rockaway Blvd to get express service to Manhattan, rather than going via Queens Blvd?

 

 

[Wallyhorse]

9 hours ago, LGA Link N train said:

yeah, and on nights and weekends you're better off sending trains to Chambers Street

Except West 4th provides more transfers, including to the at West 4th and the at Broadway-Lafayette.  That's why I go to West 4 and make the a local between West 4th and 34th (which on weekends has the added benefit of giving riders at 14th and 23rd twice as much service) on nights and weekends.    

Edited February 23, 2018 by Wallyhorse

[officiallyliam]

9 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Except West 4th provides more transfers, including to the at West 4th and the at Broadway-Lafayette.  That's why I go to West 4 and make the a local between West 4th and 34th (which on weekends has the added benefit of giving riders at 14th and 23rd twice as much service) on nights and weekends.    

Sending the to Chambers get people to the at Canal and the at Essex for 6th Avenue service. While there's no direct 8th Avenue transfer, there are several ways to get there and it's not worth complicating service just to allow for a small number of people going from the to the 8th Avenue trains.

[CenSin]

15 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Except West 4th provides more transfers, including to the at West 4th and the at Broadway-Lafayette.  That's why I go to West 4 and make the a local between West 4th and 34th (which on weekends has the added benefit of giving riders at 14th and 23rd twice as much service) on nights and weekends.    

If those transfers were really important, the most logical option would be to extend it to Broad Street, which grants the (compared to today’s service) access to 10 routes in Manhattan on a normal weekend instead of just 1. Comparisons of proposals:

• Delancey Street–Essex Street (1 line, 1 route)
  
• West 4 Street–Washington Square (3 lines, 6 routes)
  
• Chambers Street (3 lines, 7 routes)
  
• Broad Street (5 lines, 10 routes)
  

The long-term solution might just be to connect Bowery to Grand Street should the MTA not be inclined to extend the that far.

[Lance]

Or you know, perhaps it should be recognized that not everyone can be given one- or two-seat rides to their destinations. At least not without inconveniencing others.

In about a year, the will be a 24/7 Manhattan-Brooklyn route with service to midtown at all times. During the year or so that follows, there will be plenty of time to see if a permanent extension would be beneficial to riders and not wasteful spending due to extraneous services. Until then, Essex St and/or Chambers St are the best possible terminals for the present weekend .

[Wallyhorse]

22 hours ago, officiallyliam said:

Sending the to Chambers get people to the at Canal and the at Essex for 6th Avenue service. While there's no direct 8th Avenue transfer, there are several ways to get there and it's not worth complicating service just to allow for a small number of people going from the to the 8th Avenue trains.

I suspect that's a bigger number than you realize.  I'm sure quite a few are looking for the  in particular at West 4 to get to CPW for example (especially if they are going to the Museum of Natural History for example).  

[officiallyliam]

1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

I suspect that's a bigger number than you realize.  I'm sure quite a few are looking for the  in particular at West 4 to get to CPW for example (especially if they are going to the Museum of Natural History for example).  

I live near the in Ridgewood. I take it sometimes on the weekends. The Ridgewood or Williamsburg to Central Park West corridor (which isn't really a thing in the first place) does not warrant extending the to West 4 and screwing up service. It's a much smaller number than you realize.

The to Essex Street, for now, does just fine.

[CenSin]

2 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

I suspect that's a bigger number than you realize.  I'm sure quite a few are looking for the  in particular at West 4 to get to CPW for example (especially if they are going to the Museum of Natural History for example).  

Hospitals, schools, Wall Street, casinos, race tracks, and now museums? I understand that those things are all important to you, but it’s highly suspect when you say that there are enough regular folks doing all of that to warrant bending service for that crowd.

And why not send trains to Broad Street, where it will obviously do less harm while providing more options?

[Coney Island Av]

Actually, I think we should replace the weekend  entirely with a service that runs from Bay Ridge-95 St, terminates at Chambers St days, and late nights/weekends to Metropolitan Av. We can call this service the  aka the "Brown  Bankers Special!" (Wally.exe has stopped working)

In all seriousness, the best option is to extend the weekend  to Broad St. It'll provide more options, just as @CenSin stated. 

[officiallyliam]

23 minutes ago, CenSin said:

And why not send trains to Broad Street, where it will obviously do less harm while providing more options?

 

18 minutes ago, Coney Island Av said:

In all seriousness, the best option is to extend the weekend  to Broad St. It'll provide more options, just as @CenSin stated. 

The  to Broad Street gets into Manhattan and then turns south - a direction hardly anyone is going on weekends. The majority of riders coming from Brooklyn will switch to uptown  trains at Essex - hence why weekend  service didn’t even go as far as Broad until a few years ago.

The best weekend service patterns for the  go uptown on Sixth Avenue - where people want to go. Ideally, weekend  service should go to 57th or Queens Plaza, but if that would disrupt service too much, 96th is another option.

Edited February 24, 2018 by officiallyliam

[Wallyhorse]

17 hours ago, officiallyliam said:

 

The  to Broad Street gets into Manhattan and then turns south - a direction hardly anyone is going on weekends. The majority of riders coming from Brooklyn will switch to uptown  trains at Essex - hence why weekend  service didn’t even go as far as Broad until a few years ago.

The best weekend service patterns for the  go uptown on Sixth Avenue - where people want to go. Ideally, weekend  service should go to 57th or Queens Plaza, but if that would disrupt service too much, 96th is another option.

Which is why it's going to 96th when the  shutdown happens. 

This was about extending the current weekend to West 4th outside of that so people can have easier transfers at Broadway-Lafayette to the &  and at West 4th to the and a cross-platform platform to the .  You can have the and cross each other on weekends because fewer trains are running overall and it also provides additional local service to 14th and 23rd on weekends.

That all said, I suspect once the does go to 96/2 late nights and weekends, that will be made permanent even after the shutdown.  

[Jemorie]

Wallyhorse, they’re not going to do all that extra shit just so the weekend  can provide more transferring opportunities. Subway ridership is lower on weekends than on weekdays and will always be.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Jemorie

[Around the Horn]

If terminating at West 4th was really feasible, we'd probably be seeing the  go there during Fastrack and GO's when it ends at Essex to provide a direct transfer to the  for Lower Manhattan...

[Jemorie]

Having the  cross to the local track just for two stops and then back onto the express track is literally a waste of time. This isn't like evening and weekend  service, where the line has to switch for two extra stops to allow trains to be stored on the express track (when the headways on all Queens Boulevard lines go down after the PM Rush Hour) east of Forest Hills due to lack of space at Jamaica Yard. In the  's case, it is vastly different and should not be treated as such. Either run the  to Forest Hills or 96 St or don't.

The  to Chambers provides a transfer to the Lexington Avenue Line and the Broadway Line besides 6th Avenue. But it's not like there are so many people traveling on weekends compared to weekdays, are they or are they not?

EDIT: Anywho, a simple direct Midtown Manhattan extension or a Chambers Street-bound extension should be enough.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Jemorie

[CenSin]

15 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Which is why it's going to 96th when the  shutdown happens. 

This was about extending the current weekend to West 4th outside of that so people can have easier transfers at Broadway-Lafayette to the &  and at West 4th to the and a cross-platform platform to the .  You can have the and cross each other on weekends because fewer trains are running overall and it also provides additional local service to 14th and 23rd on weekends.

That all said, I suspect once the does go to 96/2 late nights and weekends, that will be made permanent even after the shutdown.  

You still haven’t explain why this is better than sending it to Broad Street. I thought you loved the Financial District?

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

8 hours ago, Jemorie said:

Wallyhorse, they’re not going to do all that extra shit just so the weekend  can provide more transferring opportunities. Subway ridership is lower on weekends than on weekdays and will always be.

That statement is absolutely incorrect. For the past 7 years since 2011, subway ridership has been higher on weekends than on weekdays. Here is a link to provide you with statistical evidence to prove my point: http://web.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/

[Jemorie]

1 hour ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

That statement is absolutely incorrect. For the past 7 years since 2011, subway ridership has been higher on weekends than on weekdays. Here is a link to provide you with statistical evidence to prove my point: http://web.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/

Bruh

[RR503]

1 hour ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

That statement is absolutely incorrect. For the past 7 years since 2011, subway ridership has been higher on weekends than on weekdays. Here is a link to provide you with statistical evidence to prove my point: http://web.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/

What have you been smoking? PM me I want some.

Unless I've somehow ended up back in 1890, the weekend contains two days. 

[Wallyhorse]

1 hour ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

That statement is absolutely incorrect. For the past 7 years since 2011, subway ridership has been higher on weekends than on weekdays. Here is a link to provide you with statistical evidence to prove my point: http://web.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/

Combined on weekends, sure, but ridership on either day (Saturday or Sunday) is lower than an average weekday.

That said, maybe it's time to consider having some form of rush hour-level service on Saturdays when ridership is considerably higher than Sunday.  Maybe some form of a PM rush hour as between people returning from daytime activities and those going out for Saturday night that runs from say 3:00-7:30 PM, that would be warranted, 

This might also warrant for instance having the go to 71-Continental on Saturdays, especially during the shutdown next year.  

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

A weekday ridership average considers any one of 5 days: Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. A weekend day ridership average considers any one of 2 days: Saturday and Sunday. HOWEVER, this is not a comparison of a random average weekday's ridership to a random average weekend day's ridership (which would only be 1 day—Saturday or Sunday), in which case an individual weekday would reflect a higher average than an individual weekend day. I'm collectively referring to the weekend as 2 days as reflected in the MTA's statistical report under "Average Weekend," not Saturday's and Sunday's individually. Hope that clears up any confusion.

Edited February 26, 2018 by AlgorithmOfTruth