Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

👏 I know the Oscars are coming up.. and all didn't expect a live performance. You have pretty strong positions on certain topics and it's known it's been Documentmented over the years. And it's nothing wrong with that. It's respected I respect it stand your ground back your views. But let's not play victim. 

Uh I don't know what you're talking about.  I have no reason to play victim.  You just have a reading problem.  Either way, my position is my position.    

[RailRunRob]

8 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Uh I don't know what you're talking about.  I have no reason to play victim.  You just have a reading problem.  Either way, my position is my position.    

Man, your good!! 👏👏 #oscars2018  Okay, I'll keep my reading predicament in mind..   Let's just make sure you don't come down with the same issue in future chat's. But don't worry I'll be sure to point it out when that time comes. I'm always up to lend a hand.

Edited February 13, 2018 by RailRunRob

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

26 minutes ago, Vtrain said:

Are there any plans to add the K train to & from Lefferts Blvd to the A line in Queens to avoid confusion with the three A trains especially riders going to both Aqueduct Casino & Raceway & JFK Airport  (two big desinations) that still get on the first available A train that comes in but riders don't know if the A train their taking is them to either Aqueduct Casino & Raceway & JFK Airport.

 

With the Lefferts Blvd K train, riders would still have the full time Far Rockaway A train to take riders to Aqueduct Casino & Racetrack & JFK Airport as well as the PM Rockaway Park A train.

I doubt the MTA will rename  trains that serve Ozone Park–Lefferts Boulevard as  trains. While it may reduce confusion amongst passengers, the thought has merit, regardless. I don't remember the name of the user on here who had proposed this idea, but I give him credit.

[kosciusko]

Proposal/Idea: Expand the sale of full-length or half-length train wraps to advertisers for more revenue.

Is there a reason why they can't do this?

[BreeddekalbL]

8 hours ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

I doubt the MTA will rename  trains that serve Ozone Park–Lefferts Boulevard as  trains. While it may reduce confusion amongst passengers, the thought has merit, regardless. I don't remember the name of the user on here who had proposed this idea, but I give him credit.

I would just extend existing services and in exchange lenghten the full length

Edited February 14, 2018 by BreeddekalbL

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

40 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

I would just extend existing services and in exchange lenghten the full length

If you extend the  to Ozone Park, people will bail at Rockaway Boulevard for the , since it'll get them down Fulton Street quicker, skipping all local stops which the  serves. Just my two cents.

[RR503]

Still. The cut in wait times for all  riders beyond Rockaway Boulevard vastly outweighs any dumping issues at Rockaway or Euclid. I'd say the only valid objection to this plan beyond car availability is the addition of a merge before Grant.

[Jemorie]

3 hours ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

If you extend the  to Ozone Park, people will bail at Rockaway Boulevard for the , since it'll get them down Fulton Street quicker, skipping all local stops which the  serves. Just my two cents.

Euclid Avenue or Broadway Junction, not Rockaway Boulevard.

[Lawrence St]

I mean let's be realistic here, we have 4 services in the subway system alone. We have the To Ozone, to Rockaway Park, to Far Rockaway, and the late night shuttle. Something needs to be done to fix this issue because not only is it confusing, it can cause tourists to get lost. The can easily solve this issue, but as someone said before me, this causes a switch operation at Grant Avenue. The residents along the Liberty Portion of the line (Rockaway Blvd-Ozone Park) can cry me a river if they lose their precious express service, they can easily take the To Rockaway Blvd and transfer to the (A), because in my opinion, having clearer information on what TRAIN goes where is more important, especially since the is the most used line to get to and from JFK airport.

[RailRunRob]

7 hours ago, RR503 said:

I'd say the only valid objection to this plan beyond car availability is the addition of a merge before Grant.

What did the  do when it used to go the Queens? As far as the merge?

Edited February 14, 2018 by RailRunRob

[officiallyliam]

49 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

What did the  do when it used to go the Queens? As far as the merge?

I don't think it was as much of an issue, as both the  and  went local then - so there wouldn't have been a merge at Grant.

[RR503]

 

15 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

I don't think it was as much of an issue, as both the  and  went local then - so there wouldn't have been a merge at Grant.

Dunno about the service pattern with the , but I know that when the  ran out there in the 70s, the  ran express while the  went local, creating a merge and the requisite delays. ‘Twas well before my time though, so I’d wait for someone who was alive back then to chime in with more detail — what I know is secondhand.  

I honestly don’t think that the merge there is large enough to obstruct the  extension. With the  and  already being bound so tightly along their routes, this should be relatively easy to manage. In a similar vein, adding this wouldn’t precipitate a wall of reverse branching caused cascading delays, as the two already share a Manhattan trunk and tracks. 

Finally, if the  began at Lefferts, maybe it would leave the terminal on time... No more break room naps at Euclid.  

Edited February 14, 2018 by RR503

[Lawrence St]

I mean the and already merge twice along their routes, at Chambers St and at Hoyt St, so that shouldn't be a problem at all.

I mean look at Forest Hills, it's like a conga line over there and yet their still terminating trains there.

[RailRunRob]

1 hour ago, officiallyliam said:

I don't think it was as much of an issue, as both the  and  went local then - so there wouldn't have been a merge at Grant.

Was it local? During Rush hours?  I've ridden the  out to the Rockaways back in the day's the  IIRC ran local during the day not Rush hours.

The  ran to Euclid all times except rush hours anyways. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by RailRunRob

[R68OnBroadway]

In order to send the  to Lefferts, the merge at Hoyt-Schermerhorn would need to be eliminated. To do this, I would do the following.

New track is built from the outer platforms of Hoyt to connect with the  platforms at Jay Street.  service will be rerouted via Rutgers and 6th until West 4th Street, which eliminates the merge. Switches by West 4th will be upgraded to be high-speed switches to help with the flow and minimize disruption. The  will then be extended to Lefferts.

A second option would to simply add a third track or two new tracks to Cranberry, which I would like to do with 60th to ease congestion. 

 

Edited February 14, 2018 by R68OnBroadway

[Jemorie]

Lawrence St, once again, Euclid Avenue or Broadway Junction, not Rockaway Boulevard.

Everyone else, sending the  to Lefferts is all honestly quite pointless unless it runs express in Brooklyn alongside the . And don’t get technical with me if you say something like “Ooooo but  riders have to change to the  at Utica for express service and that’s not a problem duhhhhhh” or “Ooooo but  riders have to change over to the  at Brighton Beach for express service and that’s not a problem duhhhh”.

Like...what’s the point? It’s not like Lefferts Boulevard is insanely busy at any time of the day. Trains are mostly empty at their first and last stops anyway. There are a few exceptions but overall, not much. I get this is rapid transit but Queens have some of the longest commutes in the city and the local  train is gonna take more time than with the express  train. Keep in mind that there are handful of riders who get off the buses for the  at Lefferts, not just people living in the area entering/leaving the station. The  may be less frequent due to its alternating headways east of Rockaway Boulevard, but at least 104th, 111th and Lefferts get express service rather than dealing with so many stops and/or the need to transfer across the platform at Euclid Avenue/Broadway Junction and wait.

The  just needs to put new cars on the  line along with automated announcements on the countdown clocks similar to the A Divison. They can even make their official app automatic on every cellphone instead of having riders download it/pay for it first. Between 59th Street-Columbus Circle and Rockaway Boulevard southbound on the , they can make an automatic message via the said app on cellphones a few times (not each and every stop, just once every 3-5 stations) informing riders of which  train they’re on and which stops their train will take them to after Rockaway Boulevard so that they know how to plan ahead of time and not end up on the wrong train after Rockaway Boulevard. I believe this is much cheaper and simplistic. I don’t know. But I rather take the “easy” way first long before going the “hard” way. That’s how the  usually is anyway. You don’t have to agree with this, that’s perfectly fine. But at the same time, I don’t have to agree with this endless  to Lefferts/all  service to the Rockaways or rename one of the 3 branches business that I hear all the time either. Just saying.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Jemorie

[P3F]

1 hour ago, R68OnBroadway said:

In order to send the  to Lefferts, the merge at Hoyt-Schermerhorn would need to be eliminated. To do this, I would do the following.

New track is built from the outer platforms of Hoyt to connect with the  platforms at Jay Street.  service will be rerouted via Rutgers and 6th until West 4th Street, which eliminates the merge. Switches by West 4th will be upgraded to be high-speed switches to help with the flow and minimize disruption. The  will then be extended to Lefferts.

A second option would to simply add a third track or two new tracks to Cranberry, which I would like to do with 60th to ease congestion. 

 

That would create as many merges as it eliminates. There's no necessity to remove the Hoyt merge in order to add a Euclid merge.

[Jchambers2120]

51 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

Lawrence St, once again, Euclid Avenue or Broadway Junction, not Rockaway Boulevard.

Everyone else, sending the  to Lefferts is all honestly quite pointless unless it runs express in Brooklyn alongside the . And don’t get technical with me if you say something like “Ooooo but  riders have to change to the  at Utica for express service and that’s not a problem duhhhhhh” or “Ooooo but  riders have to change over to the  at Brighton Beach for express service and that’s not a problem duhhhh”.

Like...what’s the point? It’s not like Lefferts Boulevard is insanely busy at any time of the day. Trains are mostly empty at their first and last stops anyway. There are a few exceptions but overall, not much. I get this is rapid transit but Queens have some of the longest commutes in the city and the local  train is gonna take more time than with the express  train. Keep in mind that there are handful of riders who get off the buses for the  at Lefferts, not just people living in the area entering/leaving the station. The  may be less frequent due to its alternating headways east of Rockaway Boulevard, but at least 104th, 111th and Lefferts get express service rather than dealing with so many stops and/or the need to transfer across the platform at Euclid Avenue/Broadway Junction and wait.

The  just needs to put new cars on the  line along with automated announcements on the countdown clocks similar to the A Divison. They can even make their official app automatic on every cellphone instead of having riders download it/pay for it first. Between 59th Street-Columbus Circle and Rockaway Boulevard southbound on the , they can make an automatic message via the said app on cellphones a few times (not each and every stop, just once every 3-5 stations) informing riders of which  train they’re on and which stops their train will take them to after Rockaway Boulevard so that they know how to plan ahead of time and not end up on the wrong train after Rockaway Boulevard. I believe this is much cheaper and simplistic. I don’t know. But I rather take the “easy” way first long before going the “hard” way. That’s how the  usually is anyway. You don’t have to agree with this, that’s perfectly fine. But at the same time, I don’t have to agree with this endless  to Lefferts/all  service to the Rockaways or rename one of the 3 branches business that I hear all the time either. Just saying.

I don't think the to Lefferts suggestion is "pointless" as you put it since there are some indeed benefits, but the question is whether or not the benefits outweigh the costs.

Also, Trainmaster5 made a great point about preference. Since you've  mentioned the & lines I remember reading somewhere on this forum that Brighton riders were in arms about the running local while the ran express because the local riders wanted service to Broadway. In regards to the IRT I'm willing to bet that the majority of riders east of Utica avenue would prefer if the ran to/from New Lots avenue 24/7 and express after Utica if they had the choice. Stand on the northbound platform at Utica avenue during the AM rush and watch how crowded the platform gets from the emptying out from people transferring to the

My question is where do we draw the line between customer preference and balancing out the needs of service? 

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

15 hours ago, Jemorie said:

Euclid Avenue or Broadway Junction, not Rockaway Boulevard.

If the  is extended to Ozone Park, the  will serve Far Rockaway only and the Rockaway Park Shuttle  will replace those  trips between Inwood and Rockaway Park. Now, effort can be put into improving headways on the  in having  trains run express along Liberty Avenue between Rockaway Boulevard and Grant Avenue.

[Trainmaster5]

Over the years I've seen posters talking about tourists being confused about the various services serving Queens and the JFK airport.  Obviously my experience with the Fulton Street line goes way back but the tourist argument seems overblown,  at least in my opinion.  I used to travel from the Nostrand Avenue or the Broadway Junction stop to Rockaway Playland back when the subway took over from the LIRR. Back when the Far Rock train terminal was at Wavecrest.  Back when everything was a two fare zone below Broad Channel.  I've seen residents,  workers, amusement park daytrippers,  and the fishermen use the Rockaway branches.  I've seen people disembark at Howard Beach through the years but my guess is that those people were Idewild/JFK workers because they didn't have luggage that I can remember.  Heck, the old JFK express service carried air which is why it bit the dust.  Has ridership increased by that much since the Train to the Plane made it's last trip? There was a time when the passengers at Howard Beach were either airport workers or people going to Aqueduct.  Even today it appears that most people use taxis or the LIRR -Airtrain combination over the subway trip. As far as tourist confusion goes from my personal experience they're smarter than some posters give them credit for.  They can read, they're good listeners, they're polite, and whether they want to go to Van Cortlandt Park, the Bronx Zoo,  Harlem,  Citifield, or  Coney Island,  they seem to get around better than some residents of the city do. Isn't the confusion argument a straw man?  Just asking.  Carry on. 

[RR503]

3 hours ago, Jemorie said:

Lawrence St, once again, Euclid Avenue or Broadway Junction, not Rockaway Boulevard.

Everyone else, sending the  to Lefferts is all honestly quite pointless unless it runs express in Brooklyn alongside the . And don’t get technical with me if you say something like “Ooooo but  riders have to change to the  at Utica for express service and that’s not a problem duhhhhhh” or “Ooooo but  riders have to change over to the  at Brighton Beach for express service and that’s not a problem duhhhh”.

Like...what’s the point? It’s not like Lefferts Boulevard is insanely busy at any time of the day. Trains are mostly empty at their first and last stops anyway. There are a few exceptions but overall, not much. I get this is rapid transit but Queens have some of the longest commutes in the city and the local  train is gonna take more time than with the express  train. Keep in mind that there are handful of riders who get off the buses for the  at Lefferts, not just people living in the area entering/leaving the station. The  may be less frequent due to its alternating headways east of Rockaway Boulevard, but at least 104th, 111th and Lefferts get express service rather than dealing with so many stops and/or the need to transfer across the platform at Euclid Avenue/Broadway Junction and wait.

The  just needs to put new cars on the  line along with automated announcements on the countdown clocks similar to the A Divison. They can even make their official app automatic on every cellphone instead of having riders download it/pay for it first. Between 59th Street-Columbus Circle and Rockaway Boulevard southbound on the , they can make an automatic message via the said app on cellphones a few times (not each and every stop, just once every 3-5 stations) informing riders of which  train they’re on and which stops their train will take them to after Rockaway Boulevard so that they know how to plan ahead of time and not end up on the wrong train after Rockaway Boulevard. I believe this is much cheaper and simplistic. I don’t know. But I rather take the “easy” way first long before going the “hard” way. That’s how the  usually is anyway. You don’t have to agree with this, that’s perfectly fine. But at the same time, I don’t have to agree with this endless  to Lefferts/all  service to the Rockaways or rename one of the 3 branches business that I hear all the time either. Just saying.

Okeydokey. Here we go. 

Peak  frequency at Lefferts and Mott is about 6 trains per hour — meaning waits of ten minutes between train starts, or a mean wait of five minutes. 

Midday and weekend  frequency at its 2 main terminals is around four trains per hour, leading to 15 minute gaps, and mean wait times of 7.5 minutes. 

With the , this would change as follows:

At Lefferts Boulevard, peak train frequency would go from six to nine trains per hour, lowering mean wait from five to 3.3 minutes (-1.6 minutes in commute time). Off peak frequency would go from four to seven trains per hour, taking mean wait from 7.5 to 4.3 minutes (-3.2 mins commute time). 

At Mott Avenue (assuming all ex-Lefferts trains are rerouted there), peak train frequency would go from six to seventeen trains per hour, taking mean wait from five to 1.8 minutes (-3.2 minutes in commute time). Off peak frequency would go from four to eight trains per hour, taking mean waits from 7.5 minutes to 3.8 minutes (-3.7 minutes commute time). 

Assuming every single rider from Lefferts transfers, the math works as follows: 

Peak mean platform time: 60/17/2 = 1.8 minutes. Added back to Lefferts riders commute time gains of 1.6 minutes, we have a net loss of approximately twelve seconds. 

Off peak mean platform time: 60/8/2 = 3.8 minutes. Added to their gain of 3.2 minutes from frequency increases, we have a net loss of 36 seconds. 

So there you have it folks!! 

Riders from all Rockaway points stand to gain significantly from the addition of frequency to their area, while Lefferts riders would lose under a minute of time. I’d say that given that Rockaway riders already have some of the longest commutes in the system, it is only fair to give them these gains. These minutes add up — when multiplied across the entire commuting population, that’s hundreds — if not thousands — of man hours saved. I say go for it. 

Please, if you find a flaw in my methodology, do tell me. 

Edited February 15, 2018 by RR503

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

1 hour ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

If the  is extended to Ozone Park, the  will serve Far Rockaway only and the Rockaway Park Shuttle  will replace those  trips between Inwood and Rockaway Park. Now, effort can be put into improving headways on the  in having  trains run express along Liberty Avenue between Rockaway Boulevard and Grant Avenue.

*This is assuming that a switch is placed just before entering the portal into Grant Avenue. A similar service pattern exists when express trains run on White Plains Road during rush hours in the peak direction alongside local trains, with express trains utilizing the interlocking west of Jackson Avenue to switch from the express to/from the local track.

[Jemorie]

On 2/14/2018 at 7:15 PM, Jchambers2120 said:

I don't think the to Lefferts suggestion is "pointless" as you put it since there are some indeed benefits, but the question is whether or not the benefits outweigh the costs.

Also, Trainmaster5 made a great point about preference. Since you've  mentioned the & lines I remember reading somewhere on this forum that Brighton riders were in arms about the running local while the ran express because the local riders wanted service to Broadway. In regards to the IRT I'm willing to bet that the majority of riders east of Utica avenue would prefer if the ran to/from New Lots avenue 24/7 and express after Utica if they had the choice. Stand on the northbound platform at Utica avenue during the AM rush and watch how crowded the platform gets from the emptying out from people transferring to the

My question is where do we draw the line between customer preference and balancing out the needs of service? 

Just because you don't find it pointless (no quotations) doesn't mean I have to agree and I'm sure there are other people who, despite objections, still disagree with this all  to Lefferts Blvd/all  's to the Rockaways thing as me. No further dispute is needed.

Too bad it can't though, because the  already has a yard in the Bronx that has a shop to repair trains regularly. At the north end of the , Lenox Yard does not offer any of that, just a yard that stores trains, that's it. The  is the mainstay on the New Lots Avenue Branch for a reason. The current track layout in the Brooklyn IRT in general also plays a role too. The  also isn't totally empty leaving Utica Avenue northbound in the AM Rush. Most of the passengers seem to get off between Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan anyway. Not everyone is going towards East Midtown and the Upper East Side, just a handful. So to me it's more like around 50/50. Trains however become crowded again when they reach the CBDs and remain that way till further uptown via all East Side and West Side trains coming from Brooklyn.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Jemorie

[Jchambers2120]

1 hour ago, Jemorie said:

Just because you don't find it pointless (no quotations) doesn't mean I have to agree and I'm sure there are other people who, despite objections, still disagree with this all  to Lefferts Blvd/all  's to the Rockaways thing as me. No further dispute is needed.

Too bad it can't though, because the  already has a yard in the Bronx that has a shop to repair trains regularly. At the north end of the , Lenox Yard does not offer any of that, just a yard that stores trains, that's it. The  is the mainstay on the New Lots Avenue Branch for a reason. The current track layout in the Brooklyn IRT in general also plays a role too. The  also isn't totally empty leaving Utica Avenue northbound in the AM Rush. Most of the passengers seem to get off between Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan anyway. Not everyone is going towards East Midtown and the Upper East Side, just a handful. So to me it's more like around 50/50. Trains however become crowded again when they reach the CBDs and remain that way till further uptown via all East Side and West Side trains coming from Brooklyn.

I think it's obvious that people will object the to Lefferts proposal and nobody's forcing you to agree with anything, but as RR503 pointed out your previous stance of it being "pointless" is false. 

Also, I'm aware of why the IRT thing wouldn't work from a technical standpoint. I was just reiterating Trainmasters point of customer preference. I'm sure most of us can agree that the average rider has the general consensus that express = faster. If given a choice IRT riders east of Utica would prefer a one seat express ride which is basically what you're arguing for in regards to the A/C swap. 

Again, my question is when do we draw the line between satisfying customer preference and balancing out the needs of service for everyone? 

[RailRunRob]

31 minutes ago, Jchambers2120 said:

Again, my question is when do we draw the line between satisfying customer preference and balancing out the needs of service for everyone? 

Were at that precipice now IMO.. The system is operating well above what it was designed for.  The current battle is maximizing essential infrastructure. Customer preference is becoming more and more of a luxury.