Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[CenSin]

And if we look south, the Washington DC Metro is struggling to balance service on its lines after the opening of the Silver Line. Planners have been dreaming up all sorts of ways to detangle the mess they ended up with.

[Jemorie]

3 hours ago, Jchambers2120 said:

I think it's obvious that people will object the to Lefferts proposal and nobody's forcing you to agree with anything, but as RR503 pointed out your previous stance of it being "pointless" is false. 

Also, I'm aware of why the IRT thing wouldn't work from a technical standpoint. I was just reiterating Trainmasters point of customer preference. I'm sure most of us can agree that the average rider has the general consensus that express = faster. If given a choice IRT riders east of Utica would prefer a one seat express ride which is basically what you're arguing for in regards to the A/C swap. 

Again, my question is when do we draw the line between satisfying customer preference and balancing out the needs of service for everyone? 

It’s pointless because who the hell wants to run much more frequent service through an isolated area (Howard Beach, Broad Channel, and the Rockaways)? A couple of people I know moved out of the Rockaways for a reason that I’m sure you already know. And let’s be brutally honest my man...the  ain’t the only public transportation in the Rockaways unless you are really going towards Brooklyn or Manhattan. Lol. How crowded does the line get out of its Queens end that it needs to be so frequent? RR503’s point about 17 trains an hour leaving Far Rockaway is false because not all trains can be turned there or start service there, realistically speaking. Most can while a few have to start at Rockaway Park or Howard Beach depending on the time of the day and the headways shifting around and stuff.

I was not arguing for any one-seat express ride. Besides, the  still has its seats filled up and a few people standing each car leaving Utica northbound. I don’t see why the  has to go to and from New Lots in terms of an operation standpoint anyway. In general, passengers and railfans can’t always get what they want, the subway doesn’t exist just for them.

That question is often difficult for me to answer to be honest, especially after reading the last few pages of this thread.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Jemorie

[RailRunRob]

2 hours ago, CenSin said:

And if we look south, the Washington DC Metro is struggling to balance service on its lines after the opening of the Silver Line. Planners have been dreaming up all sorts of ways to detangle the mess they ended up with.

Man didn't they have a while? Plan's Dulles Service has been on the table for a while now at least since the 90's.

[Jchambers2120]

2 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

Were at that precipice now IMO.. The system is operating well above what it was designed for.  The current battle is maximizing essential infrastructure. Customer preference is becoming more and more of a luxury. 

Definitely! Some tough calls will have to be made soon if we really expect to make any improvements and with that people won't  be happy. The needs of many outweigh the needs of the few

It also seems like another poster still isn't getting the point that is being made. I don't know how to make it any simpler, but whatever. Moving on...

 

 

[RailRunRob]

34 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

I was not arguing for any one-seat express ride. Besides, the  still has its seats filled up and a few people standing each car leaving Utica northbound. I don’t see why the  has to go to and from New Lots in terms of an operation standpoint anyway. In general, passengers and railfans can’t always get what they want, the subway doesn’t exist just for them.

3

Express service in the overall scheme of things doesn't necessarily equal faster in NYC. It equal's bandwidth more than anything I think riders are starting to understand that. From Utica what are you saving 4-5 mins via the Express? I notice at Franklin all the time if people see an Express train they'll jump ship if not they'll keep moving on the local. I'd say the psyche of the rider is really gear around movement and the feeling of some type of progress.. They'll take local service as long as it's moving.  Express services only net gains on the extreme ends a Brooklyn Bridge to 125th  vs   whats that 7 mins?  Last week I caught a  at 145th the  didn't overtake us until Franklin. As long as that train is moving riders will get with the program.

 

Edited February 17, 2018 by RailRunRob

[RailRunRob]

11 minutes ago, Jchambers2120 said:

Definitely! Some tough calls will have to be made soon if we really expect to make any improvements and with that people won't  be happy. The needs of many outweigh the needs of the few

New York's prosperity depends on it. They're going to have to get creative and the interim with patterns and optimizing. A little +4% here and +10% here adds up... Have to gain that yardage and move upfield.. One small victory at a time.. The only way to devour the elephant one bite at a time.

Edited February 17, 2018 by RailRunRob

[Jemorie]

1 hour ago, RailRunRob said:

Express service in the overall scheme of things doesn't necessarily equal faster in NYC. It equal's bandwidth more than anything I think riders are starting to understand that. From Utica what are you saving 4-5 mins via the Express? I notice at Franklin all the time if people see an Express train they'll jump ship if not they'll keep moving on the local. I'd say the psyche of the rider is really gear around movement and the feeling of some type of progress.. They'll take local service as long as it's moving.  Express services only net gains on the extreme ends a Brooklyn Bridge to 125th  vs   whats that 7 mins?  Last week I caught a  at 145th the  didn't overtake us until Franklin. As long as that train is moving riders will get with the program.

You sure are something, aren't you lol. Apparently you didn't even read my post carefully. You're acting like all this time I didn't know that but I'm already old enough to realize that. But "thanks" anyways I guess lol.

You need to learn how to read before saying things.

[RailRunRob]

26 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

You sure are something, aren't you lol. Apparently you didn't even read my post carefully. You're acting like all this time I didn't know that but I'm already old enough to realize that. But "thanks" anyways I guess lol.

You need to learn how to read before saying things.

Relax bud not talking down to you just adding to the flavor. I saw what you wrote just adding to your point. Maybe I shouldn't have replied directly figured I would add my two cents. No ones attacking don't over think it.. A lot can be misinterpreted though posts as opposed to a conversation.

Edited February 17, 2018 by RailRunRob

[P3F]

What is the current crowding situation? How full are trains from Lefferts and the Rockaways once they get to Rockaway Boulevard? How many people avoid the subway below Broad Channel but take the select bus to Rockaway Blvd for the ?

[R68OnBroadway]

If fumigation is such an issue at Forest Hills, why do  and  trains terminate there? Can't they just extend them to 179th? This will allow for more services west of Forest Hills, eliminates the issue of congestion as 179 can turn 63 TPH, and also speeds up commutes for Eastern Queens  riders. Even if the  and  get a lack of ridership, it will still be better to extend them imo as it would streamline service at Forest Hills, and with Union Turnpike now an express stop less passengers will be crowding at Forest Hills.

[Coney Island Av]

9 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

If fumigation is such an issue at Forest Hills, why do  and  trains terminate there? Can't they just extend them to 179th? This will allow for more services west of Forest Hills, eliminates the issue of congestion as 179 can turn 63 TPH, and also speeds up commutes for Eastern Queens  riders. Even if the  and  get a lack of ridership, it will still be better to extend them imo as it would streamline service at Forest Hills, and with Union Turnpike now an express stop less passengers will be crowding at Forest Hills.

The reason why they terminate at 71 Av, and  goes local east of there, is because Hillside Local residents prefer express over the local. When the  was extended to Parsons/Archer in 1988, the  was extended to Jamaica-179 St in its place. However, people ditched the  by the time they got to Parsons Blvd, Union Turnpike, and 71 Av because they wanted fast express service. As a result, this extension was cut back to only rush hours, until the  was cut back entirely to 71 Av in 1992. If this was re-introduced, only with the  added, it will have the same result. 

Also, having the  terminate at 179 St only replaces one conga line with another. You'd have the , , , and  terminating there, which would exceed the 30 TPH limit. 

If you were to fix the conga line, you'd have to build a spur out to the LIE or an abandoned ROW west of Forest Hills. 

[Around the Horn]

33 minutes ago, Coney Island Av said:

Also, having the  terminate at 179 St only replaces one conga line with another. You'd have the , , , and  terminating there, which would exceed the 30 TPH limit. 

If you were to fix the conga line, you'd have to build a spur out to the LIE or an abandoned ROW west of Forest Hills. 

179 has two levels of tail tracks which can each turn 30 TPH. 

[CenSin]

30 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

179 has two levels of tail tracks which can each turn 30 TPH. 

I’ve seen sources quote 63 TPH or more (total) elsewhere. But that’s probably before accounting for political/legal/management-said-so issues.

Edited February 20, 2018 by CenSin

[P3F]

29 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

179 has two levels of tail tracks which can each turn 30 TPH. 

Yeah... like I appreciate people being enthusiastic with their proposals, but they should at least look at a track map before talking about these things.

[Wallyhorse]

1 hour ago, Coney Island Av said:

The reason why they terminate at 71 Av, and  goes local east of there, is because Hillside Local residents prefer express over the local. When the  was extended to Parsons/Archer in 1988, the  was extended to Jamaica-179 St in its place. However, people ditched the  by the time they got to Parsons Blvd, Union Turnpike, and 71 Av because they wanted fast express service. As a result, this extension was cut back to only rush hours, until the  was cut back entirely to 71 Av in 1992. If this was re-introduced, only with the  added, it will have the same result. 

Also, having the  terminate at 179 St only replaces one conga line with another. You'd have the , , , and  terminating there, which would exceed the 30 TPH limit. 

If you were to fix the conga line, you'd have to build a spur out to the LIE or an abandoned ROW west of Forest Hills. 

One big difference though:  If there is a conga line at 179, you can divert some of the locals to the express tracks after Parsons Boulevard since such would only skip one stop: 169. 

[CenSin]

3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

One big difference though:  If there is a conga line at 179, you can divert some of the locals to the express tracks after Parsons Boulevard since such would only skip one stop: 169. 

There are switches just north of 169 Street as well…

[R68OnBroadway]

8 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

The reason why they terminate at 71 Av, and  goes local east of there, is because Hillside Local residents prefer express over the local. When the  was extended to Parsons/Archer in 1988, the  was extended to Jamaica-179 St in its place. However, people ditched the  by the time they got to Parsons Blvd, Union Turnpike, and 71 Av because they wanted fast express service. As a result, this extension was cut back to only rush hours, until the  was cut back entirely to 71 Av in 1992. If this was re-introduced, only with the  added, it will have the same result. 

Also, having the  terminate at 179 St only replaces one conga line with another. You'd have the , , , and  terminating there, which would exceed the 30 TPH limit. 

If you were to fix the conga line, you'd have to build a spur out to the LIE or an abandoned ROW west of Forest Hills. 

1. Hillside local residents would not face that much of an issue as they would travel 2 stops max to an express stop. 

2. The  runs 15TPH max and the  and  10TPH max. 7 SB  runs leave 179 throughout the morning and evening peak, and 4 NB ones arrive in the evening peak. Roughly 2  s arrive/depart per hour, so this puts 27TPH at 179, which is less than half of the capacity 179. 

[Lance]

I think a lot of the reasoning behind not extending the locals to 179 Street is due to a foreseen lack of ridership. People coming from 179 Street and other nearby stops are not going to take the or local when the  express remains a viable option. It costs money for such an extension and if the trains are going to run mostly empty, well, there's little justification in it. Also, if fumigation is the issue behind the delays at 71 Avenue, I don't think extending the locals will solve that problem. Sure, there are switches between the local and express tracks just east of 169 Street. However, trains will have to be emptied out at 179 Street in order to relay the train. If everything runs local along Hillside Ave, you would still see some delays as each out of service train is cleared out.

[R68OnBroadway]

2 hours ago, Lance said:

I think a lot of the reasoning behind not extending the locals to 179 Street is due to a foreseen lack of ridership. People coming from 179 Street and other nearby stops are not going to take the or local when the  express remains a viable option. It costs money for such an extension and if the trains are going to run mostly empty, well, there's little justification in it. Also, if fumigation is the issue behind the delays at 71 Avenue, I don't think extending the locals will solve that problem. Sure, there are switches between the local and express tracks just east of 169 Street. However, trains will have to be emptied out at 179 Street in order to relay the train. If everything runs local along Hillside Ave, you would still see some delays as each out of service train is cleared out.

As for costs, I'm pretty sure that more money is wasted on congestion at Forest Hills. Also, under this plan I would have the  run express. As for a lack of ridership, this change is to remove the congestion at Forest Hills rather than attract more riders on Hillside. 

[Lance]

If the were to run express with the and making the local stops east of Forest Hills, I don't foresee it being well-received. Remember, the bulk of the ridership on the far end of Queens Blvd is mostly heading for Manhattan. They are not going to take the local trains all the way through and would rather likely just bail at the first opportunity. This idea would just shift the waits from 71 Avenue to Union Turnpike and Parsons Blvd where they'll become holding delays due to transferring riders. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this service pattern would fare better than it did in '89 when the became the replacement for the rerouted .

[officiallyliam]

36 minutes ago, Lance said:

If the were to run express with the and making the local stops east of Forest Hills, I don't foresee it being well-received. Remember, the bulk of the ridership on the far end of Queens Blvd is mostly heading for Manhattan. They are not going to take the local trains all the way through and would rather likely just bail at the first opportunity. This idea would just shift the waits from 71 Avenue to Union Turnpike and Parsons Blvd where they'll become holding delays due to transferring riders. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this service pattern would fare better than it did in '89 when the became the replacement for the rerouted .

As well as this, isn't this service pattern also unpopular due to the length of the routes? Forest Hills to 179th isn't a super long extension (seven stops), but the and are very long routes as it is. If I recall correctly, operators and conductors tend to complain about the length of the when weekend G/Os extend it to Jamaica, and would likely be against a permanent line extension.

As for the holding delays, extending the might actually help a little with that. Yes, people will bail from the local to the express, but the flow of those riders will be distributed between Parsons, Union Turnpike, Forest Hills, and Roosevelt. If the locals and expresses are timed to meet at certain stops, could this alleviate the extreme crowding at Roosevelt?

[Lance]

I think the multitude of bus transfers, along with the one between the and the Queens Blvd lines, play a bigger part in the crowding situation than the local-express one does there at Roosevelt Av.

[R68OnBroadway]

1 hour ago, officiallyliam said:

As well as this, isn't this service pattern also unpopular due to the length of the routes? Forest Hills to 179th isn't a super long extension (seven stops), but the and are very long routes as it is. If I recall correctly, operators and conductors tend to complain about the length of the when weekend G/Os extend it to Jamaica, and would likely be against a permanent line extension.

As for the holding delays, extending the might actually help a little with that. Yes, people will bail from the local to the express, but the flow of those riders will be distributed between Parsons, Union Turnpike, Forest Hills, and Roosevelt. If the locals and expresses are timed to meet at certain stops, could this alleviate the extreme crowding at Roosevelt?

As for the longer lines, I would have the following service patterns:

 Jamaica-179th to Coney Island. Express all times west of Forest Hills, express east of Forest Hills 6 AM- 10 PM weekdays. Other times via local.

 Metropolitan Avenue to Jamaica 179th weekdays. Weekends and late nights to Essex.

  Bay Ridge-95th to Jamaica-179th 6 AM-10 PM weekdays. 10 PM-12 AM truncated to Forest Hills. Weekends to Forest Hills, late nights to Whitehall.

 I don't know really what to tell the T/Os and C/Rs as the extension is necessary to eliminate a source of crowding on QBL. Plus, the extension is rather short in my view (only 7 stops).

[Lawrence St]

I would have the terminate at Chambers St during weekends.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

43 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I would have the terminate at Chambers St during weekends.

Why? It’s not that busy on the weekends.