Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Armandito]

1 hour ago, mrsman said:

Another possibility seems to suggest having the Nassau line be the main source for Bay Ridge trains.  So have 14 TPH from Chambers (or possibly extend 14 TPH of  trains) to 95th.

This will mean that the Broadway local trains can be divided as such:

7 TPH Forest Hills - Whitehall  

7 TPH Astoria - Canal  short line

7 TPH Astoria - Bay Ridge  long line.

Which is why I suggested the brown as a successor to former Broadway service to Bay Ridge. The shorter runtime between Chambers and 95th means trains can run more reliably, as this new route would only serve 19 stations compared to 45 on the current . If the is extended there, it would become a 24/7 route for the first time since 2004 as the would no longer serve Astoria in this case. It would replicate the route of the pre-1987 as well, except the would operate its full route on weekdays only.

Weekend and late night local service along Broadway would be replaced by trains. Late night service south of 57th Street would remain unchanged.

Note that this is assuming that Phase 3 of the SAS isn't funded yet. If Phase 3 ever comes to life, you would be relegated to operating and trains at 7 TPH each as track space would need to be shared with the train.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Armandito

[Armandito]

Made a map of my proposed Broadway Line service changes: 

Key:  = brown;  = gray;  = yellow

Edited August 24, 2020 by Armandito

[loveofelevators]

2 hours ago, Armandito said:

Made a map of my proposed Broadway Line service changes: 

Key:  = brown;  = gray;  = yellow

Bor-ING! No Sense!

[Armandito]

3 minutes ago, loveofelevators said:

Bor-ING! No Sense!

As was mentioned before, subways are for commuting, not musical chairs.

[loveofelevators]

1 minute ago, Armandito said:

As was mentioned before, subways are for commuting, not musical chairs.

Maybe, This Will Work:

Line:

[plus extension]

Reroutes: Via Bowling Green, Via South Ferry

Stations:

Brooklyn College-Flatbush Av:

Newkirk Av:

Beverley Rd:

Church Av:

Winthrop St:

Sterling St:

President St:

Franklin Av:

Grand Army Plaza:  [via New Express Platforms]

Atlantic Av-Barclays:

Nevins St:

Hoyt St:  [via New Express Platforms]

Borough Hall:

Bowling Green:  [Bronx-bound Platform]

Wall St:  [relay here]

Bowling Green:  [Brooklyn-bound platform]

South Ferry:

Rector St:

WTC Cortlandt:

Chambers St:

14 St:

34 St-Penn:

Times Sq-42 St:

72 St:

96 St:

Central Park-110 St:

116 St:

125 St:

135 St:

145 St

148 St-Lenox Terminal

151 St

155 St:

Sedgwick Av

Anderson-Jerome Avs

167 St: (4)

 

 

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, loveofelevators said:

Bor-ING! No Sense!

Do you understand the rational behind that proposal?

[loveofelevators]

1 minute ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Do you understand the rational behind that proposal?

I Think I Do.

 Goes From Bay Ridge-95 St to Chambers St via 4 Av Lcl and Nassau St Lcl.

 trains are tructuated to Whitehall St. via Broadway Lcl and Queens Blvd Lcl.

 trains run from Astoria-Ditmars Blvd to Bay Ridge-95 St. via 4 Av Lcl, Broadway Lcl and Astoria Lcl.

[Around the Horn]

A random idea I just thought of with the LGA Airtrain back in the discourse:

An extension of the Astoria Line to Flushing stopping at:

-Steinway Street (on 19th Av)

-LaGuardia Airport (at terminal B/C)

-Northern Blvd (on Ditmars Blvd)

-Flushing Main St (on Northern Blvd)

-------------------------------------------------------

4 hours ago, Armandito said:

Made a map of my proposed Broadway Line service changes: 

Key:  = brown;  = gray;  = yellow

I actually quite like this...

The continuing to Essex would open it up to additional transfer opportunities at Canal and Essex (and potentially Bowery if it were connected to Grand St) but you would need to make some adjustments to Essex for terminating trains.

[Vulturious]

2 hours ago, loveofelevators said:

Maybe, This Will Work:

Line:

[plus extension]

Reroutes: Via Bowling Green, Via South Ferry

Stations:

Brooklyn College-Flatbush Av:

Newkirk Av:

Beverley Rd:

Church Av:

Winthrop St:

Sterling St:

President St:

Franklin Av:

Grand Army Plaza:  [via New Express Platforms]

Atlantic Av-Barclays:

Nevins St:

Hoyt St:  [via New Express Platforms]

Borough Hall:

Bowling Green:  [Bronx-bound Platform]

Wall St:  [relay here]

Bowling Green:  [Brooklyn-bound platform]

South Ferry:

Rector St:

WTC Cortlandt:

Chambers St:

14 St:

34 St-Penn:

Times Sq-42 St:

You are basically delaying trains on both the  and  because of the relay, that is not a very good idea period and would basically count as its own separate line entirely.

[loveofelevators]

3 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

You are basically delaying trains on both the  and  because of the relay, that is not a very good idea period and would basically count as its own separate line entirely.

 and  trains terminate at Fulton St until the relays are finished.

[Lex]

26 minutes ago, loveofelevators said:

 and  trains terminate at Fulton St until the relays are finished.

Because that (somehow) makes everything better!

[Vulturious]

29 minutes ago, loveofelevators said:

 and  trains terminate at Fulton St until the relays are finished.

 

1 minute ago, Lex said:

Because that (somehow) makes everything better!

I 100% agree with you, in what way does forcing both lines that are going towards Brooklyn or at least terminating at Bowling Green having it terminate at Fulton St make this any better. There aren't even any relay tracks to switch for them to reverse back towards the Bronx. There is absolutely no way this plan would ever work because of the amount of delays you just made not to mention forcing a few trains to terminate at a station that cannot relay period.

[loveofelevators]

11 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

 

I 100% agree with you, in what way does forcing both lines that are going towards Brooklyn or at least terminating at Bowling Green having it terminate at Fulton St make this any better. There aren't even any relay tracks to switch for them to reverse back towards the Bronx. There is absolutely no way this plan would ever work because of the amount of delays you just made not to mention forcing a few trains to terminate at a station that cannot relay period.

...With new switches at the front at Fulton St.

[Vulturious]

28 minutes ago, loveofelevators said:

...With new switches at the front at Fulton St.

You're making it even more complicating than it needs to be, having a train terminate on 1 area only for it to go the complete opposite direction to continue on another line, it's not the  anymore and again, causing more delays than it needs to be regardless of adding a new switch at Fulton. And it's not even Brooklyn bound trains either, it's Manhattan Bound trains, too. What do you plan on having them do since they are stuck waiting for the  to relay going to/from Wall St. 

[loveofelevators]

15 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

You're making it even more complicating than it needs to be, having a train terminate on 1 area only for it to go the complete opposite direction to continue on another line, it's not the  anymore and again, causing more delays than it needs to be regardless of adding a new switch at Fulton. And it's not even Brooklyn bound trains either, it's Manhattan Bound trains, too. What do you plan on having them do since they are stuck waiting for the  to relay going to/from Wall St?

 trains terminate at local track at Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall, then run on the City Hall Loop empty.

 trains terminate at Grand Central-42 St by using the express track switches. After that, the train lays up on the Bronx-bound Express track.

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, loveofelevators said:

Bor-ING! No Sense!

What does being boring have to do with what's being proposed?

[Reptile]

13 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

What does being boring have to do with what's being proposed?

It wouldn't make sense in some 2010 fantasy map.

All jokes aside your train can run to Fulton St instead of ending Downtown, and the should both end in Astoria to de-interline.

[Armandito]

3 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

The continuing to Essex would open it up to additional transfer opportunities at Canal and Essex (and potentially Bowery if it were connected to Grand St) but you would need to make some adjustments to Essex for terminating trains.

True. Essex has all tracks occupied, and with trains terminating there on weekends it wouldn't be ideal to turn trains there with the existing station layout. On the other hand, the old trolley terminal could possibly be used as a terminal with some adjustments, though explaining it all in text won't work. There needs to be a map illustrating the proposed track and platform alignments.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Armandito

[B35 via Church]

54 minutes ago, Reptile said:

....All jokes aside your train can run to Fulton St instead of ending Downtown, and the should both end in Astoria to de-interline.

Who is this supposed to be directed towards? I'm not the author of the proposal.....

[Vulturious]

4 hours ago, loveofelevators said:

 trains terminate at local track at Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall, then run on the City Hall Loop empty.

 trains terminate at Grand Central-42 St by using the express track switches. After that, the train lays up on the Bronx-bound Express track.

You're screwing Lexington Av line you know that right? No trains in NYC ever terminates and switches onto a completely different line to continue. You haven't even answered my question about the Manhattan bound trains from Brooklyn. I suggest you stop because this proposal is not good, period. No matter how you do it, unless you have a new tunnel created for the  to run completely separate from Lexington while still making some of those stops running into South Ferry, your idea would never be considered because of the amount of delays you have made for every rider on both Lexington and even  train riders.

[mrsman]

20 hours ago, Armandito said:

Made a map of my proposed Broadway Line service changes: 

Key:  = brown;  = gray;  = yellow

I like this too.  One thing to keep in mind the problem with the existing  isn't just its long length, but all of the interference that it has with other lines.  For the most part, passengers from Brooklyn use the Montague tunnel specifically to access Lower Manhattan (below Chambers), there is almost no need to provide direct Bay Ridge services to Midtown because almost all of those passengers will transfer to a line along the Manhattan Bridge.  They want a reliable service to Downtown, which it seems like something your  can provide.

Reworking the Broadway Brooklyn service can also be at play here.  If skip stop service ended and  were assigned to the full length Jamaica-Broad trains, running express between Marcy and Broadway Jct.   can then be extended north of Chambers to be the local service to Broadway Jct.

[Reptile]

On 8/24/2020 at 10:14 AM, Armandito said:

Made a map of my proposed Broadway Line service changes: 

Key:  = brown;  = gray;  = yellow

Responded to the wrong person, my bad. I think the should both run to Astoria with some transfer between Queens Plaza and Queensboro Plaza added in.

[LGA Link N Train]

On 8/24/2020 at 10:14 AM, Armandito said:

Made a map of my proposed Broadway Line service changes: 

Key:  = brown;  = gray;  = yellow

I (along with everyone else here) like this idea. Here's a suggestion that I think should be looked at that no one has talked about:

An interlocking north of Whitehall street could be added to reduce terminal congestion. Especially if this  line were to be the dominant 4th Avenue Local Service. 

[Armandito]

2 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

I (along with everyone else here) like this idea. Here's a suggestion that I think should be looked at that no one has talked about:

An interlocking north of Whitehall street could be added to reduce terminal congestion. Especially if this  line were to be the dominant 4th Avenue Local Service. 

Agreed. Needless to say, it seems this proposal is better than my previous one for the X train.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2020 at 7:26 AM, mrsman said:

I'd like to explore some of the discussion with regard to the options for Montague tunnel lines (and by extension the Nassau and Broadway lines)

First, it seems wise to avoid interference between Broadway express and local.  So all  and  trains to 96th.

With regard to what remains, we can have 7 TPH  from Forest Hills and 14 TPH  from Astoria can service the Broadway local tracks.  [The shortfall in QBL local service can be met by an increase in 6th Ave service, the specifics of that are beyond the scope of this discussion.]

Terminate the  at Whitehall.  This now means 14 TPH  in the Montague tunnel all the way to Bay Ridge.

To supplement the Bay Ridge service, add 7 TPH along the Nassau line from Chambers to 95th.

 

-----------------

Another possibility seems to suggest having the Nassau line be the main source for Bay Ridge trains.  So have 14 TPH from Chambers (or possibly extend 14 TPH of  trains) to 95th.

This will mean that the Broadway local trains can be divided as such:

7 TPH Forest Hills - Whitehall  

7 TPH Astoria - Canal  short line

7 TPH Astoria - Bay Ridge  long line.

 

 

Of course helpful to the discussion are the actual limitation of the different chokepoints along the Broadway and Nassau lines.  From these forums, I know that the City Hall curves take a max of 21 TPH and there is a max of 15 TPH from Ditmars.  I don't know what the max turning capacities are at 95th, Whitehall, Canal, Chambers which would be important for this discussion.

 

 

 

 

There would have to be an increase in  service if only 7 tph of  service were to be run between Continental and Whitehall. By how much depends on what can fit through Broadway-Myrtle Junction, the curve before the Willy B and the sharp curve east of Essex - without negatively reducing service.

On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2020 at 8:40 AM, Armandito said:

Which is why I suggested the brown as a successor to former Broadway service to Bay Ridge. The shorter runtime between Chambers and 95th means trains can run more reliably, as this new route would only serve 19 stations compared to 45 on the current . If the is extended there, it would become a 24/7 route for the first time since 2004 as the would no longer serve Astoria in this case. It would replicate the route of the pre-1987 as well, except the would operate its full route on weekdays only.

Weekend and late night local service along Broadway would be replaced by trains. Late night service south of 57th Street would remain unchanged.

Note that this is assuming that Phase 3 of the SAS isn't funded yet. If Phase 3 ever comes to life, you would be relegated to operating and trains at 7 TPH each as track space would need to be shared with the train.

Does this mean both the ( K ) and  would operate 24/7 end-to-end? It's certainly possible for them to both be full time, but would 4th Ave local need that much service during off hours? The  would have to be 24/7 if the  moves to 2nd Ave. The ( K ) wouldn't have to, but then it would be the supplemental 4th Ave local service, while the  would be the new main service. A scenario where the ( K ) is the full-time primary service and the  is the part-time secondary service with the  terminating at Whitehall is certainly possible. But it would require the  to stay in Astoria as the primary service there and continue to merge with the  at either 57th or 34th.

8 hours ago, mrsman said:

I like this too.  One thing to keep in mind the problem with the existing  isn't just its long length, but all of the interference that it has with other lines.  For the most part, passengers from Brooklyn use the Montague tunnel specifically to access Lower Manhattan (below Chambers), there is almost no need to provide direct Bay Ridge services to Midtown because almost all of those passengers will transfer to a line along the Manhattan Bridge.  They want a reliable service to Downtown, which it seems like something your  can provide.

Reworking the Broadway Brooklyn service can also be at play here.  If skip stop service ended and  were assigned to the full length Jamaica-Broad trains, running express between Marcy and Broadway Jct.   can then be extended north of Chambers to be the local service to Broadway Jct.

Agreed. If you're going to have a new ( K ) via Nassau St, it might as well go at least to Broadway Jct and run peak local between there and Marcy while the  runs express, eliminating skip-stop service.

Edited August 25, 2020 by T to Dyre Avenue