How Will SAS Restructure the Broadway Line

[BronxBombers]

Astoria riders want service to 49th St, so all 15 tph to / from Ditmars Blvd must stop there. Thus, the switches over btwn 42nd and 34th Sts.

 

That's not true. I read here on the forums about why express trains stops at 49th Street. It's because there are no punch boxes at 5th Av. So the dispatchers will not know if the train is going down Broadway Express or Broadway Local. Also I think it has to do with the switches being located further south of 57th that causes a problem (or something along those lines). I might be wrong about the second part. But I do know that the lack of punch boxes at 5th Av is a reason.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

That's not true. I read here on the forums about why express trains stops at 49th Street. It's because there are no punch boxes at 5th Av. So the dispatchers will not know if the train is going down Broadway Express or Broadway Local. Also I think it has to do with the switches being located further south of 57th that causes a problem (or something along those lines). I might be wrong about the second part. But I do know that the lack of punch boxes at 5th Av is a reason.

This I've seen posted on Subchat by former Transit employees who worked both on the trains and for Operations & Planning. I have no reason to doubt them; they'd certainly know better than any of us who don't work for Transit. It makes sense. But I wonder if they'd consider putting in a punch box at 5th Ave to allow the to switch either before entering or after leaving 57th and how that would affect service on the N and the other Broadway lines. You'd likely have many instances where southbound and trains are about to enter 57th and one would have to stop to let the other pass.

Honestly, it probably will be, since and trains won't arrive at 34th St simultaneously anymore.

But an could arrive at 34th at the same time an or , and then we'd have the same thing as now with the northbound switching over. Though getting rid of the Prince merge (at least on weekdays) hopefully does help, especially with the 's current, inconsistent service.

[darrylbaniaga38]

That's not true. I read here on the forums about why express trains stops at 49th Street. It's because there are no punch boxes at 5th Av. So the dispatchers will not know if the train is going down Broadway Express or Broadway Local. Also I think it has to do with the switches being located further south of 57th that causes a problem (or something along those lines). I might be wrong about the second part. But I do know that the lack of punch boxes at 5th Av is a reason.

 

 

This I've seen posted on Subchat by former Transit employees who worked both on the trains and for Operations & Planning. I have no reason to doubt them; they'd certainly know better than any of us who don't work for Transit. It makes sense. But I wonder if they'd consider putting in a punch box at 5th Ave to allow the to switch either before entering or after leaving 57th and how that would affect service on the N and the other Broadway lines. You'd likely have many instances where southbound and trains are about to enter 57th and one would have to stop to let the other pass.

 

That makes sense for southbound trains, but what about trains going northbound? There's no punchbox for the switches north of 57th on the northbound side?

[Wallyhorse]

This I've seen posted on Subchat by former Transit employees who worked both on the trains and for Operations & Planning. I have no reason to doubt them; they'd certainly know better than any of us who don't work for Transit. It makes sense. But I wonder if they'd consider putting in a punch box at 5th Ave to allow the to switch either before entering or after leaving 57th and how that would affect service on the N and the other Broadway lines. You'd likely have many instances where southbound and trains are about to enter 57th and one would have to stop to let the other pass.

 

That would make sense to add a punch box at the southwest (railroad south) end of 5th Avenue/59th that would allow the to come in/depart on the express track at 57th/7th.  That would make a world of difference and remove a decent amount of the bottleneck.

[RollOver]

That's not true. I read here on the forums about why express trains stops at 49th Street. It's because there are no punch boxes at 5th Av. So the dispatchers will not know if the train is going down Broadway Express or Broadway Local. Also I think it has to do with the switches being located further south of 57th that causes a problem (or something along those lines). I might be wrong about the second part. But I do know that the lack of punch boxes at 5th Av is a reason.

This I've seen posted on Subchat by former Transit employees who worked both on the trains and for Operations & Planning. I have no reason to doubt them; they'd certainly know better than any of us who don't work for Transit. It makes sense. But I wonder if they'd consider putting in a punch box at 5th Ave to allow the to switch either before entering or after leaving 57th and how that would affect service on the N and the other Broadway lines. You'd likely have many instances where southbound and trains are about to enter 57th and one would have to stop to let the other pass.

But an could arrive at 34th at the same time an or , and then we'd have the same thing as now with the northbound switching over. Though getting rid of the Prince merge (at least on weekdays) hopefully does help, especially with the 's current, inconsistent service.

 

Yep. Even TwoTimer (a transit employee who no longer posts on the forums) said this:

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/35988-mta-heading-your-way-with-good-news/?p=558374

 

There really isn't anything wrong if the does bypass 49th Street in both directions like some other members seem to make it out to be. It's just one local stop anyway and it's not the end of the world if people get off at 57th Street (southbound) or 42nd Street (northbound) to wait for a local or  across the platform/behind the express  . Therefore, Broadway Express trains stopping at 49th Street have nothing to do with ridership.

[Daniel The Cool]

 

Yep. Even TwoTimer (a transit employee who no longer posts on the forums) said this:

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/35988-mta-heading-your-way-with-good-news/?p=558374

 

There really isn't anything wrong if the does bypass 49th Street in both directions like some other members seem to make it out to be. It's just one local stop anyway and it's not the end of the world if people get off at 57th Street (southbound) or 42nd Street (northbound) to wait for a local or across the platform/behind the express . Therefore, Broadway Express trains stopping at 49th Street have nothing to do with ridership.

It had to do with 49th Street being a real busy stop.

[Lordsaitamaboss]

 

Yep. Even TwoTimer (a transit employee who no longer posts on the forums) said this:

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/35988-mta-heading-your-way-with-good-news/?p=558374

 

There really isn't anything wrong if the does bypass 49th Street in both directions like some other members seem to make it out to be. It's just one local stop anyway and it's not the end of the world if people get off at 57th Street (southbound) or 42nd Street (northbound) to wait for a local or  across the platform/behind the express  . Therefore, Broadway Express trains stopping at 49th Street have nothing to do with ridership.

To be fair 49th street is a short walk to 42nd street.

[RollOver]

To be fair 49th street is a short walk to 42nd street.

True.

[Caelestor]

It had to do with 49th Street being a real busy stop.

 

After reading the past thread, I think it's a combination of the two factors (and he says so as well). Operationally, there's not much of a difference in merging at 34th vs 49th. Also, I don't think it's a good idea to have every other Astoria train serve 49th St, since it's still a top 50 station in ridership.

[BronxBombers]

After reading the past thread, I think it's a combination of the two factors (and he says so as well). Operationally, there's not much of a difference in merging at 34th vs 49th. Also, I don't think it's a good idea to have every other Astoria train serve 49th St, since it's still a top 50 station in ridership.

 

 

It had to do with 49th Street being a real busy stop.

 

50th Street on the has roughly the same amount of ridership as 49th Street and the can handle it. If there were punch boxes at 5th Av or 57th St and 49th St is a local station only than I think that the can handle it.

[RollOver]

Yeah. The headways on the weekdays are the same as the combined. That's 12 trains an hour or more.

[darrylbaniaga38]

After reading the other thread, I'm now wondering how the and works out if they both arrive at Columbus Circle southbound at the same time. It looks like both 57-7 and 59 Columbus have somewhat similar track setups.

[Wallyhorse]

What they need to do is this:

On Broadway, do it so the correct track can be punched in going south at 59th Street/5th Avenue so (after the SAS comes in) the can go to the express track and the / goes to the local track.

At 57th-7th, do it so the goes it's correct route (on the SAS) and the goes down 60th.

This would cut the delays down considerably.

Revising another idea for what I wrote earlier:

becomes essentially the current weekday , replacing it on the Brighton Line and runs local to 95th-Astoria (except for this running through the Montauge tunnel as a  24/7 line).

moves to the West End Line and runs to 96th/2nd, express after 36th/4th and skipping DeKalb Avenue (except late nights when it would be local in Brooklyn, including stopping at DeKalb before going over the Bridge).

returns exactly as it was pre-2010 as a supplemental line to Astoria.  If warranted, there can be a <W> that runs from Coney Island or Brighton beach during rush hours to supplement the on Brighton.

replaces the in Bay Ridge and runs to 205 (as the has Concourse Yard, the eliminates that issue).  This would be express after 59th Street-4th Avenue (skipping DeKalb as it does now) and over its current route after 36th Street. 

now remains on Sea Beach but returns to its pre-1987 route of running to 71st-Continental EXCEPT for it would run via 63rd Street and then run via the 63rd Street tunnel, stopping at Roosevelt Island and 21st-Queensbridge with the before then running local on QB starting with 36th Street, running this way 24/7 (this would except for Queens Plaza also give QB a 24/7 Broadway service).  This also would likely have the running local on Queens Boulevard late nights and weekends that some have suggested be done anyway on weekends.  This would be local in Brooklyn (including stopping at DeKalb) before going over the Bridge and running express in Manhattan.

To accommodate the loss of Broadway Line service at Queens Plaza, there can be an OOS transfer between Queensboro and Queens Plaza at all times while at least on weekends (and possibly late nights), the could return to going to 71st-Continental if the remained an express (on weekends).

This also does mean the and would still have to cross over at 59th Street-4th Avenue, but that is a lesser evil for now.

[Fresh Pond]

What they need to do is this:

 

On Broadway, do it so the correct track can be punched in going south at 59th Street/5th Avenue so (after the SAS comes in) the can go to the express track and the / goes to the local track.

 

At 57th-7th, do it so the goes it's correct route (on the SAS) and the goes down 60th.

 

This would cut the delays down considerably.

 

Revising another idea for what I wrote earlier:

 

becomes essentially the current weekday , replacing it on the Brighton Line and runs local to 95th-Astoria (except for this running through the Montauge tunnel as a 24/7 line).

 

moves to the West End Line and runs to 96th/2nd, express after 36th/4th and skipping DeKalb Avenue (except late nights when it would be local in Brooklyn, including stopping at DeKalb before going over the Bridge).

 

returns exactly as it was pre-2010 as a supplemental line to Astoria. If warranted, there can be a <W> that runs from Coney Island or Brighton beach during rush hours to supplement the on Brighton.

 

replaces the in Bay Ridge and runs to 205 (as the has Concourse Yard, the eliminates that issue). This would be express after 59th Street-4th Avenue (skipping DeKalb as it does now) and over its current route after 36th Street.

 

now remains on Sea Beach but returns to its pre-1987 route of running to 71st-Continental EXCEPT for it would run via 63rd Street and then run via the 63rd Street tunnel, stopping at Roosevelt Island and 21st-Queensbridge with the before then running local on QB starting with 36th Street, running this way 24/7 (this would except for Queens Plaza also give QB a 24/7 Broadway service). This also would likely have the running local on Queens Boulevard late nights and weekends that some have suggested be done anyway on weekends. This would be local in Brooklyn (including stopping at DeKalb) before going over the Bridge and running express in Manhattan.

 

To accommodate the loss of Broadway Line service at Queens Plaza, there can be an OOS transfer between Queensboro and Queens Plaza at all times while at least on weekends (and possibly late nights), the could return to going to 71st-Continental if the remained an express (on weekends).

 

This also does mean the and would still have to cross over at 59th Street-4th Avenue, but that is a lesser evil for now.

Damn near 4 in the morning, and I done burst out laughing reading this.

[Lordsaitamaboss]

What they need to do is this:

 

On Broadway, do it so the correct track can be punched in going south at 59th Street/5th Avenue so (after the SAS comes in) the can go to the express track and the / goes to the local track.

 

At 57th-7th, do it so the goes it's correct route (on the SAS) and the goes down 60th.

 

This would cut the delays down considerably.

 

Revising another idea for what I wrote earlier:

 

becomes essentially the current weekday , replacing it on the Brighton Line and runs local to 95th-Astoria (except for this running through the Montauge tunnel as a  24/7 line).

 

moves to the West End Line and runs to 96th/2nd, express after 36th/4th and skipping DeKalb Avenue (except late nights when it would be local in Brooklyn, including stopping at DeKalb before going over the Bridge).

 

returns exactly as it was pre-2010 as a supplemental line to Astoria.  If warranted, there can be a <W> that runs from Coney Island or Brighton beach during rush hours to supplement the on Brighton.

 

replaces the in Bay Ridge and runs to 205 (as the has Concourse Yard, the eliminates that issue).  This would be express after 59th Street-4th Avenue (skipping DeKalb as it does now) and over its current route after 36th Street. 

 

now remains on Sea Beach but returns to its pre-1987 route of running to 71st-Continental EXCEPT for it would run via 63rd Street and then run via the 63rd Street tunnel, stopping at Roosevelt Island and 21st-Queensbridge with the before then running local on QB starting with 36th Street, running this way 24/7 (this would except for Queens Plaza also give QB a 24/7 Broadway service).  This also would likely have the running local on Queens Boulevard late nights and weekends that some have suggested be done anyway on weekends.  This would be local in Brooklyn (including stopping at DeKalb) before going over the Bridge and running express in Manhattan.

 

To accommodate the loss of Broadway Line service at Queens Plaza, there can be an OOS transfer between Queensboro and Queens Plaza at all times while at least on weekends (and possibly late nights), the could return to going to 71st-Continental if the remained an express (on weekends).

 

This also does mean the and would still have to cross over at 59th Street-4th Avenue, but that is a lesser evil for now.

Too many unneeded reroutes simplify it to fewer please. It's called the transfer heard of it?

[Wallyhorse]

Too many unneeded reroutes simplify it to fewer please. It's called the transfer heard of it?

As said before, were it not for the yard issue, I would simply return the to its pre-1987 routing of 95th-Astoria that it was designed for.  The yard issue is the problem here, since the seems to insist on one at one end.

 

Problem #2 is what has been noted with the switch of currently the after 34th to the local track going north/after Times Square going south.  Move that to where trains come in on the express track at 57th from the 60th Street Tunnel and merge north until AFTER 57th on the 60th street tunnel and you solve a LOT of those problems.  

 

The real issue is no matter how you slice it, you are going to have three lines use the 60th Street tunnel UNLESS you did it the way I did above by having the and go back to their pre-1987 routing on the north end, though now with the running via 63rd/Queensbridge to 36th and going local there (with perhaps OOS transfers if so between Queensboro and Queens Plaza AND also between 39th Avenue and 36th Street to make up for no Broadway trains stopping at Queens Plaza).

[Daniel The Cool]

As said before, were it not for the yard issue, I would simply return the to its pre-1987 routing of 95th-Astoria that it was designed for. The yard issue is the problem here, since the seems to insist on one at one end.

 

Problem #2 is what has been noted with the switch of currently the after 34th to the local track going north/after Times Square going south. Move that to where trains come in on the express track at 57th from the 60th Street Tunnel and merge north until AFTER 57th on the 60th street tunnel and you solve a LOT of those problems.

 

The real issue is no matter how you slice it, you are going to have three lines use the 60th Street tunnel UNLESS you did it the way I did above by having the and go back to their pre-1987 routing on the north end, though now with the running via 63rd/Queensbridge to 36th and going local there (with perhaps OOS transfers if so between Queensboro and Queens Plaza AND also between 39th Avenue and 36th Street to make up for no Broadway trains stopping at Queens Plaza).

How many times you said this?

[trainfanrod]

I wonder if sending the to bay ridge rush hours will make a difference bay ridge has a lot of passengers

[Wallyhorse]

How many times you said this?

In this case I'm not the only one who has noted some of the issues.

I wonder if sending the to bay ridge rush hours will make a difference bay ridge has a lot of passengers

It's been said why elsewhere (including the ban on R32s/42s in Montauge) why this won't work.

 

This is what I previously wrote concerning the Nassau Line going to Brooklyn.

[Caelestor]

Right now, there is 25 tph scheduled through the 60th St tunnel during the peak. Due to merging on Broadway and dwell times at 59th / Lexington, the uneven service pattern will break down in practice regularly. The only real ways to fix this is to improve the signaling, or change the headways from 6 to 8 minutes so that it arrives at a regular interval between the and trains.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

It's been said why elsewhere (including the ban on R32s/42s in Montauge) why this won't work.

 

This is what I previously wrote concerning the Nassau Line going to Brooklyn.

Your proposed 24/7 train will have the same problem.

[Lordsaitamaboss]

In this case I'm not the only one who has noted some of the issues.

 

It's been said why elsewhere (including the ban on R32s/42s in Montauge) why this won't work.

 

This is what I previously wrote concerning the Nassau Line going to Brooklyn.

 

It's called a fleet swap with the (r160 only) , maybe and other lines with R160 not the though.

Your proposed 24/7 train will have the same problem.

 

true but it can be worked around. Sadly extreme compromises may need to be made.

Right now, there is 25 tph scheduled through the 60th St tunnel during the peak. Due to merging on Broadway and dwell times at 59th / Lexington, the uneven service pattern will break down in practice regularly. The only real ways to fix this is to improve the signaling, or change the headways from 6 to 8 minutes so that it arrives at a regular interval between the and trains.

That may work actually.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Revising another idea for what I wrote earlier:

 

becomes essentially the current weekday , replacing it on the Brighton Line and runs local to 95th-Astoria (except for this running through the Montauge tunnel as a 24/7 line).

 

moves to the West End Line and runs to 96th/2nd, express after 36th/4th and skipping DeKalb Avenue (except late nights when it would be local in Brooklyn, including stopping at DeKalb before going over the Bridge).

 

returns exactly as it was pre-2010 as a supplemental line to Astoria. If warranted, there can be a <W> that runs from Coney Island or Brighton beach during rush hours to supplement the on Brighton.

 

replaces the in Bay Ridge and runs to 205 (as the has Concourse Yard, the eliminates that issue). This would be express after 59th Street-4th Avenue (skipping DeKalb as it does now) and over its current route after 36th Street.

 

now remains on Sea Beach but returns to its pre-1987 route of running to 71st-Continental EXCEPT for it would run via 63rd Street and then run via the 63rd Street tunnel, stopping at Roosevelt Island and 21st-Queensbridge with the before then running local on QB starting with 36th Street, running this way 24/7 (this would except for Queens Plaza also give QB a 24/7 Broadway service). This also would likely have the running local on Queens Boulevard late nights and weekends that some have suggested be done anyway on weekends. This would be local in Brooklyn (including stopping at DeKalb) before going over the Bridge and running express in Manhattan.

 

To accommodate the loss of Broadway Line service at Queens Plaza, there can be an OOS transfer between Queensboro and Queens Plaza at all times while at least on weekends (and possibly late nights), the could return to going to 71st-Continental if the remained an express (on weekends).

 

This also does mean the and would still have to cross over at 59th Street-4th Avenue, but that is a lesser evil for now.

Any plan that requires local and express trains to cross over in front of each other at grade is not a "lesser evil." Not now, not ever. Especially if there are better and simpler alternatives available. And making the , which is already a long local line, even longer by rerouting it onto the Brighton local tracks, is never a good idea either.

[richardye1]

my plan for a new broadway line:
 

Coney Island-96th St Express via its Sea Beach, 8tph

Coney Island-96th St Express via Brighton, 8tph

Bay Ridge-71st Continental Local, 8tph

Whitehall-Astoria Local 12tph

 

By splitting the 96th terminal with the and the , it provides 2nd Av w a good 16tph, enough to serve everyone there. This will also provide a balance for the less densely populated Brooklyn, which would have its and run with 8tph.

 

Also Astoria is being pumped w equal train service, w a train every 5 minutes ish.

 

We are also depriving Astoria of express bway service. Although this may by annoying at first, it will be offset by the lack of merging at 57th St, and Prince St. By saving a lot of time for commuters by reducing delays, the lack of an express service will make up for itself, and benefit riders along Bway not going to Astoria. If Astoria riders really want express, they can transfer to an express at 57th

 

The may have problems terminating at Whitehall, so maybe we could use City Hall to turn the , maybe just a sidenote

[Wallyhorse]

my plan for a new broadway line:

 

N Coney Island-96th St Express via its Sea Beach, 8tph

Q Coney Island-96th St Express via Brighton, 8tph

R Bay Ridge-71st Continental Local, 8tph

W Whitehall-Astoria Local 12tph

 

By splitting the 96th terminal with the N and the Q, it provides 2nd Av w a good 16tph, enough to serve everyone there. This will also provide a balance for the less densely populated Brooklyn, which would have its N and Q run with 8tph.

 

Also Astoria is being pumped w equal train service, w a train every 5 minutes ish.

 

We are also depriving Astoria of express bway service. Although this may by annoying at first, it will be offset by the lack of merging at 57th St, and Prince St. By saving a lot of time for commuters by reducing delays, the lack of an express service will make up for itself, and benefit riders along Bway not going to Astoria. If Astoria riders really want express, they can transfer to an express at 57th

 

The W may have problems terminating at Whitehall, so maybe we could use City Hall to turn the W, maybe just a sidenote

Keep in mind the as I understand it by itself is supposed to provide 14TPH at 96th.

 

12TPH is not even even off-peak for Astoria, which along with Brighton and Sea Beach BOTH get short-changed by your proposal.

 

The real problem as noted is the lack of a yard or you could simply go back to running the between 95th and Astoria like it was from 1967-'87.   Maybe the solution is to just deal with lack of a yard and return the to that routing as that might be the least of all evils.

 

With that, this is how I now would do it:

 

as noted returns to its pre-1987 routing of 95th-Astoria and returns to being a 24/7 line.  Trains that do go to Coney Island Yard run normal route to 59th/4th and then run via Sea Beach to Kings Highway while trains put in from CIY run via Sea Beach from 86th-59th/4th before running on their regular route.

 

sort of returns to its pre-1987 routing, now running Sea Beach to 71st-Continental, however, the is express all the way and unlike the pre-1987 routing runs with the to 63rd/Lex before then going via the 63rd Street tunnel, stopping on Roosevelt Island and at 21st-Queensbridge and then running local on QB starting with 36th Street.  This also would be 24/7.

 

runs as it's scheduled to once the SAS opens to 96th/2nd.

 

returns and supplements the to Astoria from 5:30 AM-11:30 PM weekdays, 7:00 AM-9:00 PM Saturdays (later if warranted) and 8:30 AM-7:30 PM Sundays (again, later if warranted).  

 

Because in this there would be no Broadway train stopping at Queens Plaza, there would be two new OOS transfer spots between Queensboro and Queens Plaza and 39th Avenue on the and 36th Street on the .  In addition, because of this the becomes at least a 19/7 line to 71st-Continental OR late nights and weekends the is extended to 71st-Continental OR the runs local on QB on weekends.