What benefits would a NYC '10 Minute Network' generate?

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

Our friends at the TTC have mapped out a '10 Minute or Better Network' where the system's most demanding surface routes are guaranteed headways of at least 10 minutes all times except late night hours, seven days a week. It was Toronto's way of jumping on the frequency branding wave that many cities have chosen to jump on to encourage greater bus usage. I had thought that since people are losing confidence in NYC buses we could also start branding the network around high-frequency routes and have something of substance to show riders that buses can provide high-quality transit. The question here is how much would NYC benefit from such a strategy and what routes would be 10 minute routes if such was employed?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Our friends at the TTC have mapped out a '10 Minute or Better Network' where the system's most demanding surface routes are guaranteed headways of at least 10 minutes all times except late night hours, seven days a week. It was Toronto's way of jumping on the frequency branding wave that many cities have chosen to jump on to encourage greater bus usage. I had thought that since people are losing confidence in NYC buses we could also start branding the network around high-frequency routes and have something of substance to show riders that buses can provide high-quality transit. The question here is how much would NYC benefit from such a strategy and what routes would be 10 minute routes if such was employed?

A better question is how in the hell can the get buses ON TIME?  I got a BxM10 today after my tutoring session that spent at least 40 MINUTES getting a wheelchair on and off the bus, not including the actual trip.  The trip should've been an hour tops, and instead was almost double that.  I'm seriously considering just using buses on weekends (and that includes express buses).  The schedules don't seem to matter anymore unless it's late at night, or early in the morning on weekends.  That's about the only time you can get somewhere ON TIME with any bus run by the these days.  Having frequencies of buses every 10 minutes means nothing if none of them come on time.  Hell, there are quite a few routes with good headways like the Bx6 that always runs in packs of twos and threes.

 

We have a crisis here that no one wants to address, and that is there are too many damn cars on the road and nothing being done to curb driving in NYC.  I've been in serious conversations with several of my representatives about addressing this problem as that is the real elephant in the room. Until that's addressed and we literally force people to pay handsomely for the privilege of driving in this city, don't expect anything to change.  I myself don't want to be part of the problem which is why for years now I've debated getting a car since most of my trips are to and from Manhattan.  I despise folks that drive cars and there's one person driving and I don't want to be one of those types on the road making my commute and everyone else's commute even worse.

[Fresh Pond]

Lol did you really just get mad at a wheelchair

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Lol did you really just get mad at a wheelchair

The wheelchair wasn't the problem. It was evident that the B/O didn't know what he was doing.  He kept bringing the guy off of the ramp and onto the bus.  I actually took a short nap and woke up and we were still at the same stop.  Not only that but he kept adjusting the air pressure the entire ride.  Someone must've pleaded with him that they were incredibly late for work or something because he actually stopped at 98th and 5th (which is not a stop on the BxM10) and let them off, and I ran and got off too.  

[MysteriousBtrain]

The wheelchair wasn't the problem. It was evident that the B/O didn't know what he was doing. He kept bringing the guy off of the ramp and onto the bus. I actually took a short nap and woke up and we were still at the same stop. Not only that but he kept adjusting the air pressure the entire ride. Someone must've pleaded with him that they were incredibly late for work or something because he actually stopped at 98th and 5th (which is not a stop on the BxM10) and let them off, and I ran and got off too.

Sounds like ECH needs to train their drivers longer if that's the case. If the lift was broken that's a different story. But nope, probably a newbie that needs more training.

[Fresh Pond]

Sounds like ECH needs to train their drivers longer if that's the case. If the lift was broken that's a different story. But nope, probably a newbie that needs more training.

How often do you see the lifts on the coaches used? Many operators don't even know how to use them

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

In all my time riding express buses, I've only seen it used once.

__________________________________________

Now, to bring the thread back on track, but would be a pretty interesting idea. However, they may be a lack of space on maps in some areas, so how would that be accounted for?

[checkmatechamp13]

In all my time riding express buses, I've only seen it used once.

__________________________________________

Now, to bring the thread back on track, but would be a pretty interesting idea. However, they may be a lack of space on maps in some areas, so how would that be accounted for?

 

I thought for a second you were talking about only seeing the 10 minute frequency being used on express buses once (even the X1 doesn't run that frequently off-peak)

 

Yeah, I've only seen it used once on the X10 by Schmidt & Manor, but that was like 10 years ago lol.

 

In any case, frequency of a lot of the bus routes isn't a problem. A good chunk of the population has some route in their general area running every 10 minutes or better. The problem, like VG8 said, is that a lot of times, reliability can be an issue. 

[B35 via Church]

Sounds gimmicky... This is the last thing the MTA needs to incorporate.

[BrooklynIRT]

We have a crisis here that no one wants to address, and that is there are too many damn cars on the road and nothing being done to curb driving in NYC.  I've been in serious conversations with several of my representatives about addressing this problem as that is the real elephant in the room. Until that's addressed and we literally force people to pay handsomely for the privilege of driving in this city, don't expect anything to change.  I myself don't want to be part of the problem which is why for years now I've debated getting a car since most of my trips are to and from Manhattan.  I despise folks that drive cars and there's one person driving and I don't want to be one of those types on the road making my commute and everyone else's commute even worse.

 

Well damn, this took me back a couple of years to when I was carrying on about this stuff. That is a long trip down memory lane. Since then I have learned to care about it less. Everything happens for a reason, pretty much. Let's not forget that a lot of jobs, including those in the rail industry, require driver's licenses. So people must get the experience needed to obtain a driver's license by driving.

 

When it comes to other reasons for driving, that is another discussion that I do not really want to deal with. Traffic? Well, it is what it is. Rails and bicycles are the way to go for me when it comes to wheeled transport.

 

Yes, we know that the subway and railroad systems and NEC are heavily used and much of the infrastructure needs TLC and capacity improvements and that construction takes an eternity and costs a fortune. But we all know that none of this is going to turn around any time soon due to the condition of society and political economy. That is just how it is and will continue to be.

 

Our friends at the TTC have mapped out a '10 Minute or Better Network' where the system's most demanding surface routes are guaranteed headways of at least 10 minutes all times except late night hours, seven days a week. It was Toronto's way of jumping on the frequency branding wave that many cities have chosen to jump on to encourage greater bus usage. I had thought that since people are losing confidence in NYC buses we could also start branding the network around high-frequency routes and have something of substance to show riders that buses can provide high-quality transit. The question here is how much would NYC benefit from such a strategy and what routes would be 10 minute routes if such was employed?

 

I think bobtehpanda still has frequent transit maps that show routes running every 10 minutes and better.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

 

 

I think bobtehpanda still has frequent transit maps that show routes running every 10 minutes and better.

 

And those maps are based on weekday headways. Those don't extend to 11 pm as is the case on the TTC routes and also don't apply for Saturdays and Sundays. There are enough routes in our system where a 7 day a week 10 minute headway (or better) scheme on the busiest ones makes sense. The thing is if we adopt a TTC scheme while keeping schedules exactly the same only 7 or 8 routes systemwide would qualify. That's BS when a city with less bus usage can pull off the same on 48 surface routes. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

How often do you see the lifts on the coaches used? Many operators don't even know how to use them

Believe it or not, it's quite common on the BxM lines.  A lot of disabled folks.  Have even had one bus I was on break down on the BxM4 because the lift broke.  Before that it was rare to see them used, but I've had some cases where we've had two wheelchair lifts on the BxM2.

[bobtehpanda]

And those maps are based on weekday headways. Those don't extend to 11 pm as is the case on the TTC routes and also don't apply for Saturdays and Sundays. There are enough routes in our system where a 7 day a week 10 minute headway (or better) scheme on the busiest ones makes sense. The thing is if we adopt a TTC scheme while keeping schedules exactly the same only 7 or 8 routes systemwide would qualify. That's BS when a city with less bus usage can pull off the same on 48 surface routes. 

 

They're actually based off of headways from 7am-7pm 7 days a week. The issue with setting a later cutoff is that it becomes less of a "network", since on the NYCT network they tend to drop service levels after the PM peak is over; a lot of buses will drop to 12 or 15 minutes after 7pm instead of 10 or better.

 

Keep in mind that Toronto has less subway mileage than NYC; they might be running frequent buses where they should really be running either a light rail or a subway. Most of the subway network would qualify to be part of a frequent network as well.

[Lordsaitamaboss]

They're actually based off of headways from 7am-7pm 7 days a week. The issue with setting a later cutoff is that it becomes less of a "network", since on the NYCT network they tend to drop service levels after the PM peak is over; a lot of buses will drop to 12 or 15 minutes after 7pm instead of 10 or better.

 

Keep in mind that Toronto has less subway mileage than NYC; they might be running frequent buses where they should really be running either a light rail or a subway. Most of the subway network would qualify to be part of a frequent network as well.

Well a 10 min crosstown network can work or feeder.

[N6 Limited]

Before NYC implements something like this they need to make sure their buses move faster than walking speed.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Before NYC implements something like this they need to make sure their buses move faster than walking speed.

Crawling speed would be more appropriate.... 

[Lordsaitamaboss]

Crawling speed would be more appropriate.... 

LOL well in the bronx it can work or areas in queens where buses actually move faster than walking. Manhattan is a lost cause all they can do is split up long routes into shorter more manageable routes.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

LOL well in the bronx it can work or areas in queens where buses actually move faster than walking. Manhattan is a lost cause all they can do is split up long routes into shorter more manageable routes.  

Yeah, you know about lost causes don't you... Something someone else used to use around here a lot...   

[Lordsaitamaboss]

Yeah, you know about lost causes don't you... Something someone else used to use around here a lot...   

I used to use some crosstowns to get around and I use the M31 for medical appointments.

[Fresh Pond]

Yeah, you know about lost causes don't you... Something someone else used to use around here a lot...

LMAO!!!

 

I used to use some crosstowns to get around and I use the M31 for medical appointments.

WOW!!!!!

 

That took a wide left

 

[JerBear]

This thread is a nice example of what our bus maps are like: express crap gets strewn in there and muddles the whole thing. There is no reason to have express buses on the same map as locals. We have a nighttime subway map, we need a separate express map. So many of the people I know that ride the expresses just want to ride expresses. They don't want to ride the subway. That's why there was all of that during the North East Queens Comprehensive Bus Study. People don't want to ride the express to Midtown only to transfer to a subway to go downtown. And who takes spontaneous, occassional trips on an express bus? So take them off the map.

Then, yeah, you could do something more like BobThePanda's frequent service maps. The place it would help some people is where a couple of lines run together. It's funny to see a tourist stand in the station at Wall Street as a 4 train pulls away because their Google Map instructions say to take the 5 train. This same thing happens when someone waits for a 34 as a 25 drives away towards Flushing, or a 5 and an 85 are heading up Merrick as the person waits for the 84. Show frequency and combined routes. The trunking/splitting/variations of our routes are so complex, I would also be in favor of a complete renumbering.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

This thread is a nice example of what our bus maps are like: express crap gets strewn in there and muddles the whole thing. There is no reason to have express buses on the same map as locals. We have a nighttime subway map, we need a separate express map. So many of the people I know that ride the expresses just want to ride expresses. They don't want to ride the subway. That's why there was all of that during the North East Queens Comprehensive Bus Study. People don't want to ride the express to Midtown only to transfer to a subway to go downtown. And who takes spontaneous, occassional trips on an express bus? So take them off the map.

Then, yeah, you could do something more like BobThePanda's frequent service maps. The place it would help some people is where a couple of lines run together. It's funny to see a tourist stand in the station at Wall Street as a 4 train pulls away because their Google Map instructions say to take the 5 train. This same thing happens when someone waits for a 34 as a 25 drives away towards Flushing, or a 5 and an 85 are heading up Merrick as the person waits for the 84. Show frequency and combined routes. The trunking/splitting/variations of our routes are so complex, I would also be in favor of a complete renumbering.

Excuse me, but there are express bus users that find the maps very helpful.  The fact that express buses are now on the maps makes them more visible.  For those people coming from North East Queens that want to use the express bus, they can simply take the QM1, QM2, QM3, QM4, QM5 or QM6 to the BxM18 (Downtown-Riverdale express bus) or take the QM7 or QM8 for Downtown.

[bobtehpanda]

Excuse me, but there are express bus users that find the maps very helpful.  The fact that express buses are now on the maps makes them more visible.  For those people coming from North East Queens that want to use the express bus, they can simply take the QM1, QM2, QM3, QM4, QM5 or QM6 to the BxM18 (Downtown-Riverdale express bus) or take the QM7 or QM8 for Downtown.

 

I think what he's saying is make a local map and an express map for every borough instead of just slapping green everywhere on the local map and making it very unclear how buses run. Trying to decipher how exactly the express buses worked was an absolute nightmare when I made my express bus maps.

[B35 via Church]

I used to think that a separate express bus map would be a viable idea.... But then I sat back & thought about the express map Gorgor created.... No knock on his map, but it still felt as if something was missing.... An existence of an obvious void.... That's when I started juxtaposing his map with the notion of the MTA possibly creating an express bus only map...... Started swaying away from it being plausible.....

 

Guess the best way I can illustrate what I'm sayin w/ this is that, it's somewhat like having the regular borough bus maps w/o the subway & the RR stations included within them..... It's helpful, but it's not helpful enough.....

 

I'll go one further & say that I believe that the addition of the express buses on the local maps brought ridership to a lot of these express routes.... The few "regulars" (express bus riders) that was on them then may not have liked the infiltration (or however they'd put it) of new riders, but the influx on new riders on some of these express routes may have kept them off the chopping block..... Hence, the creation of....

 

New, "regulars"... Lol.....

 

So I say, keep them depicted on the bus maps.....

[checkmatechamp13]

I remember a while back, the NYCDOT (I believe it was. I don't think it was the MTA) made a 5 borough express bus map. I think something like that could be very useful, but I don't think the MTA should be the one to do it.

 

I agree with B35. Showing the express buses on the main map "legitimizes" them (for lack of a better term) as a form of transit. I remember my parents and I would sometimes wait for the B68 along Coney Island Avenue, and see an X29 pass by. Granted, it was always in the PM rush, so it would be drop-off only anyway, but my point is that we had no idea where it went and thought it was just some special bus.

 

By showing them on the map, it indicates "This service is open to the public, but at a premium fare". Then it's up to the rider to look up the details on the schedules and specific stops, but at least they're aware that this type of service exists. Before I moved to Staten Island, I had no idea what an express bus was.