MTA looking into a subway line to Marine Park

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I’m going to toss my friend’s comment into the ring: she lives in the Sheepshead Bay area around Nostrand Avenue; a subway alternative to the and would be a blessing since they are so far away. Of course, where she lives, the and would still be closer even after the and are extended to Flatbush Avenue and Avenue U.

Unfortunately the express buses over there run like crap, so yes a subway would be good for her.  I use the BM1, BM3 and BM4 when going back to areas of South Brooklyn (Gerritsen Beach, Sheepshead Bay, etc.) and they all aren't that grandiose in terms of saving time or running efficiently.  Getting back to Bay Ridge with the X27 is MUCH faster than the subway.  In the meantime, I think some restructuring and remarketing of the BM express buses would help.

[Fresh Pond]

If you build it they will come!

The Flushing line definitely comes to mind with that statement

Yeah White Plains Road in the Bronx comes to mind. The street under the elevated tracks is so damn narrow that it makes commuting a real PITA not to mention things constantly falling from above that may hit you (water and other odd objects). It would likely have to be built above ground given that a lot of South Brooklyn (I believe) was built on landfill, no? Bergen Beach is an example for sure.

That line was built before the street was, as with upper Broadway, and Jerome. Before that was almost next to nothing around but simple homes, farms, and dirt roads. They simply built the street around (rather under) it.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That line was built before the street was, as with upper Broadway, and Jerome. Before that was almost next to nothing around but simple homes, farms, and dirt roads. They simply built the street around (rather under) it.

Explains a lot...

[RailRunRob]

That's an absolutely ridiculous assumption to make because some neighborhoods have historically been areas where the elderly settle (my neighborhood is an example of that), so you will always have a high percentage of elderly people living there as it is treated as a retirement/bedroom community.  

So your okay with a 80-year-old making a decision that affects the City for the next 40-50 years? Even tho they may only be around the next 10? And you the next 40?

[RailRunRob]

The Flushing line definitely comes to mind with that statement

That line was built before the street was, as with upper Broadway, and Jerome. Before that was almost next to nothing around but simple homes, farms, and dirt roads. They simply built the street around (rather under) it.

Indeed.. I was thinking of these photo's when I said it. Someone I worked with on a project with sent them after learning I grew up in Riverdale.

[bobtehpanda]

I'm just going to point out that the notion of "high water table" making it difficult or impossible is a load of rubbish. Boston is built entirely on landfill, but has subways; Amsterdam is literally below sea level, but has subways; Bangkok is monsoon-prone marshland, and has subways. Heck, the train literally goes through the WTC Bathtub. With proper engineering it can be done; Los Angeles is literally building a subway through oil deposits, yet somehow a little water is supposed to make underground to Kings Plaza impossible.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So your okay with a 80-year-old making a decision that affects the City for the next 40-50 years? Even tho they may only be around the next 10? And you the next 40?

We'll all be old someday if we live that long.  You don't think the opinions of the elderly should matter?  There are quite a few communities that have high elderly populations, and they will have a say in how things go and rightfully so. I moved to the neighborhood I live in now knowing very well about how many retirement facilities existed and how many elderly there were, and I moved there for a quiet lifestyle.  In other words, I wasn't forced to move there.  Young people have choices for the most part in where they live unless they're poor, and Marine Park is a neighborhood that is solid middle class (mainly homeowners), so I would think that the people living there do so by choice and because they like what the area has to offer, not because they're coming there to change things.

[RailRunRob]

We'll all be old someday if we live that long.  You don't think the opinions of the elderly should matter?  There are quite a few communities that have high elderly populations, and they will have a say in how things go and rightfully so. I moved to the neighborhood I live in now knowing very well about how many retirement facilities existed and how many elderly there were, and I moved there for a quiet lifestyle.  In other words, I wasn't forced to move there.  Young people have choices for the most part in where they live unless they're poor, and Marine Park is a neighborhood that is solid middle class (mainly homeowners), so I would think that the people living there do so by choice and because they like what the area has to offer, not because they're coming there to change things.

I 100% value the wisdom and the opinions of my elders to not look to and gain from one's that came before you is a failure on multiple levels not to mention aginst my values. That's not really what we're talking about. We're talking more of a numbers game. We're talking a 50% and better game. If  60% of folks in an area are under 50 and if they want something.  Elders step out of the way submit. So we're talking more of the current perception of members of an older generation not wanting to embrace change and move forward when the numbers suggest otherwise. 

We keep younger folks around the office you have to how else do you keep moving forward and learn. At 70 I'd have no issues stepping out of the way. I do it now at almost 40 and sometimes play a guiding role.

 

So I'm going to ask you the question again would you be okay with an 80-year-old making a 50-year decision against popular opinion?

[RailRunRob]

I'm just going to point out that the notion of "high water table" making it difficult or impossible is a load of rubbish. Boston is built entirely on landfill, but has subways; Amsterdam is literally below sea level, but has subways; Bangkok is monsoon-prone marshland, and has subways. Heck, the train literally goes through the WTC Bathtub. With proper engineering it can be done; Los Angeles is literally building a subway through oil deposits, yet somehow a little water is supposed to make underground to Kings Plaza impossible.

Very true.. they figured that out well over 100 years ago crossing under both the Thames and The Seine. But without monetary motivation when have you known people to take on what's hard? The road less traveled? If an elevated is cheaper you know 7 out 10 times that's the route taken.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I 100% value the wisdom and the opinions of my elders to not look to and gain from one's that came before you is a failure on multiple levels not to mention aginst my values. That's not really what we're talking about. We're talking more of a numbers game. We're talking a 50% and better game. If  60% of folks in an area are under 50 and if they want something.  Elders step out of the way submit. So we're talking more of the current perception of members of an older generation not wanting to embrace change and move forward when the numbers suggest otherwise. 

We keep younger folks around the office you have to how else do you keep moving forward and learn. At 70 I'd have no issues stepping out of the way. I do it now at almost 40 and sometimes play a guiding role.

 

So I'm going to ask you the question again would you be okay with an 80-year-old making a 50-year decision against popular opinion?

I answered your question already... I think seniors should be allowed to voice their opinion just like everyone else.  I don't believe in playing along the lines of age, seeing as how I've been discriminated against because of my age.

[RailRunRob]

I answered your question already... I think seniors should be allowed to voice their opinion just like everyone else.  I don't believe in playing along the lines of age, seeing as how I've been discriminated against because of my age.

I believe everyone should have a say. Never implied anything but that. Opinions are opinions but it comes a point where they affect the real  world and people. I'm not about anyone blocking progress if the majority warrants it because someone is holding onto the way things were or sticking to what's comfortable that's my point.  Are you saying the Majority doesn't rule? Second, what do you mean you don't play the age game? Do you really have a choice? Nature and our species are built on the age game! The old makes room for the new. Ring a bell? It's important to learn from the past but you have embrace the yet to come. 

Is that not the way? What am I missing?

[Around the Horn]

I will say that from a cognitive perspective, I wouldn't trust an elderly person with making such a decision, the same way you wouldn't trust a 25 year old with being president.

 

 

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[RailRunRob]

I will say that from a cognitive perspective, I wouldn't trust an elderly person with making such a decision, the same way you wouldn't trust a 25 year old with being president.

 

 

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Great analogy ! balance balance is the name of the game.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I believe everyone should have a say. Never implied anything but that. Opinions are opinions but it comes a point where they affect the real  world and people. I'm not about anyone blocking progress if the majority warrants it because someone is holding onto the way things were or sticking to what's comfortable that's my point.  Are you saying the Majority doesn't rule? Second, what do you mean you don't play the age game? Do you really have a choice? Nature and our species are built on the age game! The old makes room for the new. Ring a bell? It's important to learn from the past but you have embrace the yet to come. 

Is that not the way? What am I missing?

And what if the majority is elderly? Then what?  I think you're making a lot of assumptions about how young people are and old people just because of their age.  I am a young individual and I don't want over development in my neighborhood, and for the record my neighbors are of all ages and they want the same thing... To keep the neighborhood the way it has been and preserve the natural beauty of it.  If I wanted over development, I could easily move and live in Manhattan or some urban place in Brooklyn.  I have plenty of friends that live in Manhattan who I stay with from time to time, and while their apartments are nice, I don't enjoy city living.  Different strokes for different folks.  What you're doing is trying to do is paint everyone with a broad brush and that just doesn't make sense.  

[LTA1992]

See, it's hard to argue against new transit lines in a city that's literally built around them. The only reason that area isn't served already, thus making this topic a thing, are factors way outside the control of New York City. But you cannot deny that the gap in southeast Brooklyn needs to be filled. Secondly, doesn't this city have a housing crisis? As a homeless guy, if this subway were to bring on the development of housing, which it would, then it would help all those in need of it. If this city can afford to build these luxurious skyscrapers and basketball stadiums, then they should be putting more money towards fixing that issue. New subways are an answer to that. I mean, I have my gripes about feeding any Utica Avenue Line into the already overtaxed east and west side Manhattan lines, but that would be a step in the right direction.

 

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[HenryB]

not a fan of elevated line, but designs of newer elevated lines are very different from what you think of, espeically those with noise barrier and floating track bed

[Via Garibaldi 8]

See, it's hard to argue against new transit lines in a city that's literally built around them. The only reason that area isn't served already, thus making this topic a thing, are factors way outside the control of New York City. But you cannot deny that the gap in southeast Brooklyn needs to be filled. Secondly, doesn't this city have a housing crisis? As a homeless guy, if this subway were to bring on the development of housing, which it would, then it would help all those in need of it. If this city can afford to build these luxurious skyscrapers and basketball stadiums, then they should be putting more money towards fixing that issue. New subways are an answer to that. I mean, I have my gripes about feeding any Utica Avenue Line into the already overtaxed east and west side Manhattan lines, but that would be a step in the right direction.

 

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Fixing what issue? Homelessness?  The homelessness crisis is a completely different topic that affordable housing and the like won't and can't solve.  Land in NYC is at a premium, and so developers MUST build luxury in order to make any real profit, otherwise it isn't worth it.  NYC has one of the most liberal housing policies in the country, and the real issue is too many people flocking here to benefit from such policies.  All of those people I see sitting around with signs says "NEED A MIRACLE"... Please... 

 

As someone who worked on the management side in the construction field, I can assure you that any sort of housing that came from a subway in Marine Park would benefit the developers, as they would fight to try to change the zoning laws in that area to allow for bigger buildings.  Even if they did an 80/20 in terms of new buildings to allow for 80% to be luxury and 20% to be affordable units, the amount of "affordable housing" gained would be minuscule at best.  

 

In any event, I'm not a proponent of affordable housing because I think it inflates market prices.  

[LTA1992]

Fixing what issue? Homelessness? The homelessness crisis is a completely different topic that affordable housing and the like won't and can't solve. I'm not a proponent of affordable housing because I think it inflates market prices. Land in NYC is at a premium, and so developers MUST build luxury in order to make any real profit, otherwise it isn't worth it. NYC has one of the most liberal housing policies in the country, and the real issue is too many people flocking here to benefit from such policies. All of those people I see sitting around with signs says "NEED A MIRACLE"... Please...

 

As someone who worked on the management side in the construction field, I can assure you that any sort of housing that came from a subway in Marine Park would benefit the developers, as they would fight to try to change the zoning laws in that area to allow for bigger buildings. Even if they did an 80/20 in terms of new buildings, the amount of "affordable housing" gained would be minuscule at best.

You don't know that. Especially in the outskirts of the city. Hell, an 80/20 split is better than nothing at all.

 

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[Via Garibaldi 8]

You don't know that. Especially in the outskirts of the city. Because without even realizing it, you've pretty much said that the building of the subway would cause developers to fight for a rezoning of the area.

 

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lol... Land is becoming increasingly expensive, even in the outskirts of the city, and even in the poorest parts of the city, and if you don't believe me do the research yourself and you'll see. 

 

I'm using the Bronx as an example since there are only a few upper middle class areas such as Country Club and parts of Throggs Neck, as much of Brooklyn save the poorest, most dangerous parts are already out of reach for the poor...

 

Give it time... Soon even the poorest parts of the city will be expensive for development...  It's already happening...

 

http://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2016/03/27/the-bronx-is-booming--the-housing-market-in-the-city-s-fastest-growing-borough-is-heating-up.html

[LTA1992]

lol... Land is becoming increasingly expensive, even in the outskirts of the city, and even in the poorest parts of the city, and if you don't believe me do the research yourself and you'll see.

 

I'm using the Bronx as an example since there are only a few upper middle class areas such as Country Club and parts of Throggs Neck, as much of Brooklyn save the poorest, most dangerous parts are already out of reach for the poor...

 

Give it time... Soon even the poorest parts of the city will be expensive for development... It's already happening...

 

http://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2016/03/27/the-bronx-is-booming--the-housing-market-in-the-city-s-fastest-growing-borough-is-heating-up.html

And that's why we should stop trying to do for those that don't have? I'm not saying just hand them out, because despite what it seems, it's actually quite hard. It sounds to me like you're advocating for an exodus if the have nots.

 

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[Via Garibaldi 8]

And that's why we should stop trying to do for those that don't have? I'm not saying just hand them out, because despite what it seems, it's actually quite hard. It sounds to me like you're advocating for an exodus if the have nots.

 

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I am actually because it would be for the best.  Have you seen what so called "affordable apartments" rent for these days?  Even in the outskirts of the city, the rents have shot up.  You would need affordable housing on a massive scale to address the amount of homelessness in this city.  The cheapest 1 bedroom in Marine Park goes for about $1,700.00, so if you're a single individual, you would need to be making 40 times the rent (around $70,000).  The median salary for a household (not a single individual) in NYC is only about $55,000 or so, so you do the math...

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

I will say that from a cognitive perspective, I wouldn't trust an elderly person with making such a decision, the same way you wouldn't trust a 25 year old with being president.

 

 

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Honestly, it shouldn't matter whether a person is elderly or not. In this case, if the community wants a subway, then that's great for the MTA. If they don't, then that should be respected. 

[RailRunRob]

And what if the majority is elderly? Then what?  I think you're making a lot of assumptions about how young people are and old people just because of their age.  I am a young individual and I don't want over development in my neighborhood, and for the record my neighbors are of all ages and they want the same thing... To keep the neighborhood the way it has been and preserve the natural beauty of it.  If I wanted over development, I could easily move and live in Manhattan or some urban place in Brooklyn.  I have plenty of friends that live in Manhattan who I stay with from time to time, and while their apartments are nice, I don't enjoy city living.  Different strokes for different folks.  What you're doing is trying to do is paint everyone with a broad brush and that just doesn't make sense.  

The Majority is the majority there's no feeling's or sides involved as I said before.

 

Assumption? Noun : A thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.

Not sure if that's entirely true. That broad brush you speak of is actually binary, CSV and XLS files.

 

Population 8,491,079 

 

Largest group  

Ages 25-29  785,587

2nd 30-34  720,320

3rd  20-24  625,572

 

That's 2.1 Million between the ages of 20-35. That's a quarter of the population Not including people under 20. 

 

What do we know about this age group?

 

More transit oriented, We can correlate that with the drop in people in this age getting licenses and the jump in subway ridership.

More City dwellers more neighborhood oriented (Shopping, leisure ect) more environmentally conscious.

We're also projecting a million more added to the population over the next 20 years don't these people need to be better connected? Younger people are more local and are going to want better connections in the areas they settle.

Every indication is pointing to that. And as I'm thinking about it. Utica Ave is a major thoroughfare it doesn't even touch the areas that you're speaking of. You want suburban living move the burbs. Want all the pluses of living in the city proper with perks. With the City is expanding which it is there may come a time to make better use of connections in certain areas especially those closer to the influence of the Manhattan! 

 

We have to careful not to mistake our perspective with truth.

What am I missing with the data and tea leaves?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The Majority is the majority there's no feeling's involved as I said before.

 

Assumption? Noun : A thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.

Not sure if that's entirely true. That broad brush you speak of is actually binary, CSV and XLS files.

 

Population 8,491,079 

 

Largest group  

Ages 25-29  785,587

2nd 30-34  720,320

3rd  20-24  625,572

 

That's 2.1 Million between the ages of 20-35. That's a quarter of the population Not including people under 20. 

 

What do we know about this age group?

 

More transit oriented, We can correlate that with the drop in people in this age getting licenses and the jump in subway ridership.

More City dwellers more neighborhood oriented (Shopping, leisure ect) more environmentally conscious.

We're also projecting a million more added to the population over the next 20 years don't these people need to be better connected? Younger people are more local and are going to want better connections in the areas they settle.

Every indication is pointing to that. And as I'm thinking about Utica Ave is a major thoroughfare it doesn't even touch the areas that you're speaking of. You want suburban living move the burbs. Want all the pluses of living in the city proper with perks. With the City is expanding which it is there may come a time to make better use of connections in certain areas especially those closer to the influence of the Manhattan! 

 

We have to careful not to mistake our perspective with truth.

What am I missing with the data and tea leaves?

And what does any of this have to do with Marine Park???  

[Around the Horn]

And what does any of this have to do with Marine Park???

What does Marine Park have to do with a Utica Avenue subway?

 

 

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