Fix & Fortify - 14th Street (L Train) Tunnels Closure

[officiallyliam]

1 hour ago, S78 via Hylan said:

I don’t agree with this. As the  will be the main alternative to the  during the shutdown, it’s not a good idea to reduce service to and from Metropolitan Ave.

It's necessary. Metropolitan can't turn the 13-15 planned tph for the ; even if it could, you wouldn't want that many trains having to cross at-grade at Myrtle junction.

Also, Broadway Junction s (though limited) will be able to absorb some of the displaced Canarsie riders without overloading the .

[BreeddekalbL]

Damn hipsters

http://via.pix11.com/SQfmb

Also did they ever consider removing that stub at marcy and put in a y crossover?

Edited April 13, 2018 by BreeddekalbL

[Coney Island Av]

12 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Damn hipsters

http://via.pix11.com/SQfmb

We present to you "The Hippie Hipsters Stupid Show!"

A few words for these hipsters:

STUPID STUPID STUPID. 

-Heavy 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2018 by Coney Island Av

[MysteriousBtrain]

13 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Damn hipsters

http://via.pix11.com/SQfmb

Also did they ever consider removing that stub at marcy and put in a y crossover?

1. What the hell is a "bike train"?

2. If we send some s to Broadway Junction wouldn't it be better to extend it to Canarsie for better coverage?

[U-BahnNYC]

6 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

minimize delays and protect crews.

Pardon if this sounds silly, but how exactly are crews at a greater risk of assault at Court Sq than they are at a terminal station?

[Wallyhorse]

2 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

1. What the hell is a "bike train"?

2. If we send some s to Broadway Junction wouldn't it be better to extend it to Canarsie for better coverage?

I agree, though that would require reconnecting two of the four previously demolished tracks at Atlantic Avenue for the purpose having some trains start there so trains can go to Rockaway Parkway and run from there.  

[U-BahnNYC]

1 hour ago, officiallyliam said:

Also, Broadway Junction s (though limited) will be able to absorb some of the displaced Canarsie riders without overloading the .

 In that case it might make sense to have these special s run BwayJct-Jamaica 179, classic s continue unchanged Middle Village-71st. Unless I'm not seeing something else here.

[Wallyhorse]

9 minutes ago, U-BahnNYC said:

 In that case it might make sense to have these special s run BwayJct-Jamaica 179, classic s continue unchanged Middle Village-71st. Unless I'm not seeing something else here.

Actually, I would designate those as ( T ) and run them to 96th Street-2nd Avenue

[officiallyliam]

2 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Actually, I would designate those as ( T ) and run them to 96th Street-2nd Avenue

No.

The shutdown is going to be confusing enough as is; there's no need to introduce an unnecessary designation that'll hardly ever run into the mix. And before you say it, Upper East Siders who need Sixth Avenue will be just fine changing across the platform at 63rd Street without introducing yet another merge into the and lines.

In all the times you've posted this idea here, I've yet to see a single person start agreeing with it.

[RR503]

1 hour ago, officiallyliam said:

It's necessary. Metropolitan can't turn the 13-15 planned tph for the ; even if it could, you wouldn't want that many trains having to cross at-grade at Myrtle junction.

Also, Broadway Junction s (though limited) will be able to absorb some of the displaced Canarsie riders without overloading the .

I mean you could, but that'd require some serious signal modification. Look at the Chicago El for evidence of this working. Given that rush hour frequencies could be maintained with FPY put-ins, I don't think such a change would be a total disaster, but it's certainly not optimal. 

1 hour ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Damn hipsters

http://via.pix11.com/SQfmb

Also did they ever consider removing that stub at marcy and put in a y crossover?

Dolts. Bikes will never be able to provide the same capacity subway does. Being a group named "Transportation Alternatives," they should be looking at more than bike orgies to aid the shutdown process. 

41 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

I agree, though that would require reconnecting two of the four previously demolished tracks at Atlantic Avenue for the purpose having some trains start there so trains can go to Rockaway Parkway and run from there.  

No, that's wholly unnecessary.  service is already being reduced. There will be plenty of space for some s to Canarsie. That said, juggling car assignments so CBTC equipped cars always end up on those Canarsie runs may be an operational challenge not worth surmounting, given the ease of transferring at Bway Jct. 

31 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Actually, I would designate those as ( T ) and run them to 96th Street-2nd Avenue

Can we get a restraining order? 

Honestly, Wally. You have been explained to time and again why this idea of rerouting weekday s to 96 is inadvisable. What will it take for you to give up? Maybe it's just me wanting to have faith in this site, but I don't think you're just trolling. So why don't you present some cogent counterarguments to the points raised above and in general, and then we can have a discussion. You need to do more than repeat yourself. 

[N6 Limited]

They should just extend the 6th Ave express tracks into Brooklyn and connect them to the Canarsie line west of Bedford Ave or route it along Metropolitan Ave and connect them west of Lorimer Street.  That way they can have train service across the river while the tunnels are being repaired, they can put switches east of 2nd Ave and use it as a Western Terminal. 

"This is a Manhattan bound  train, the next stop is 2nd Ave /Houston Street, stand clear of the closing doors please"

[MysteriousBtrain]

2 hours ago, RR503 said:

No, that's wholly unnecessary.  service is already being reduced. There will be plenty of space for some s to Canarsie. That said, juggling car assignments so CBTC equipped cars always end up on those Canarsie runs may be an operational challenge not worth surmounting, given the ease of transferring at Bway Jct. 

If CBTC is the main issue, ENY can always convert all NTTs, but whether it'll be on time or not I can't say. 

Unlikely the extension will go through because we know how long it takes for CBTC activation/conversion, but just a thought.

[officiallyliam]

9 hours ago, RR503 said:

No, that's wholly unnecessary.  service is already being reduced. There will be plenty of space for some s to Canarsie. That said, juggling car assignments so CBTC equipped cars always end up on those Canarsie runs may be an operational challenge not worth surmounting, given the ease of transferring at Bway Jct. 

CBTC can be deactivated on the south of Broadway Junction. If I'm correct, this is the only part of the line where block signalling still exists in some capacity, to allow non-NTTs to operate to and from the car wash at Canarsie.

[RR503]

29 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

CBTC can be deactivated on the south of Broadway Junction. If I'm correct, this is the only part of the line where block signalling still exists in some capacity, to allow non-NTTs to operate to and from the car wash at Canarsie.

It can, but doing so limits throughout to 6tph, or not enough to run projected service. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

15 hours ago, U-BahnNYC said:

Pardon if this sounds silly, but how exactly are crews at a greater risk of assault at Court Sq than they are at a terminal station?

I didn't say anything about Court Sq.  trains should continue to terminate there (and why not?). I was talking about terminating the extra  trains at Queens Plaza. You can't terminate them in the station. They have to exit the station on the northbound express track and relay on a middle track outside the station, then reverse back into Queens Plaza on the southbound express track. That would delay  service in both directions and the crew has to change ends on the relay track  before reversing direction. That's where they can be at risk of assault.

4 hours ago, RR503 said:

It can, but doing so limits throughout to 6tph, or not enough to run projected service. 

I thought that was only between Broadway Junction and 8th Ave, where they removed most of the old wayside signals.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

22 hours ago, RR503 said:

Yup! They'd maintain service to Wyckoff with put ins from FPY IIRC. 

But doesn’t the FPY lead track face the wrong way for Wyckoff? If anything, it looks like it leads into Metropolitan. 

21 hours ago, S78 via Hylan said:

I don’t agree with this. As the  will be the main alternative to the  during the shutdown, it’s not a good idea to reduce service to and from Metropolitan Ave.

They won’t reduce service to/from Metro. But they may not be able to run the extra  trains there. They may have to terminate them elsewhere.

[Lawrence St]

Remember, Metropolitian does not have tail tracks so the TPH is limited. What they can do, is have trains terminate at Broadway Junction and 2nd Av. What I think they should do is have some trains originate and terminate at Rockaway Parkway, since we need any available terminal we can get in order to run these many trains. 

[Wallyhorse]

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Remember, Metropolitian does not have tail tracks so the TPH is limited. What they can do, is have trains terminate at Broadway Junction and 2nd Av. What I think they should do is have some trains originate and terminate at Rockaway Parkway, since we need any available terminal we can get in order to run these many trains. 

Which is why tearing down what they did at Atlantic Avenue station was a big mistake.  I would have rebuilt Atlantic Avenue to at least four tracks (and possibly all six) where it could have been used to turn some trains OR have such trains go to Rockaway Parkway while short-turning some trains at Atlantic Avenue (and looking at Google Earth, at last check, some of the structure is still in place to where at least two tracks could be rebuilt if need be around Atlantic Avenue).  

[Lawrence St]

I'm sorry...WHAT?

Why do all of that...

[Lance]

Obviously so trains can terminate at Atlantic Av. Can't you read?

In all seriousness, there was no justification in keeping the old Snediker Ave alignment for Atlantic Av. I doubt that in the decades since the Fulton St elevated was torn down that the Broadway/Canarsie alignment was used that much. Definitely not enough for the full Fulton/Canarsie six-track layout. In fact, the last time said connection was used in regular scheduled service was in 1976 when the Broadway  was eliminated. I know everyone likes to think that as long as the structure still exists, it can still be useful someday. While a nice thought, it doesn't take into account maintenance costs and a structure that sees very little use in several decades, not years, decades, will be seen as a waste and will be eliminated, as it was back in 2001.

If the needs to run on the eastern end of the Canarsie line, it can terminate at Rockaway Pkwy. Remember, there will be fewer trains running during the closure than normal. There's no need to completely rebuild a section of track that will become obsolete as soon as the project ends.

[Lawrence St]

I actually like the idea of having the run to Rockaway Parkway, it's way better then having it end at Broadway Junction with just one track. The only real issue with this idea is the switching between Atlantic Avenue and Broadway Junction, since the speed limit is quite low there. 

But as I said, I propose having alternate trains that end at Broadway Junction to end at Canarsie, effectively eliminating the delays along Nassau caused by relaying trains at Broadway Junction. 

[RR503]

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I actually like the idea of having the run to Rockaway Parkway, it's way better then having it end at Broadway Junction with just one track. The only real issue with this idea is the switching between Atlantic Avenue and Broadway Junction, since the speed limit is quite low there. 

But as I said, I propose having alternate trains that end at Broadway Junction to end at Canarsie, effectively eliminating the delays along Nassau caused by relaying trains at Broadway Junction. 

This runs up against the realities of car availability. While 179 deliveries are starting up again, it may very well be that we're short of cars for the shutdown, in which case the name of the game will be maintaining the necessary high-frequency services using the shortest possible routes. Extending the  to Canarsie simply does not help with that. 

8 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Remember, Metropolitian does not have tail tracks so the TPH is limited. What they can do, is have trains terminate at Broadway Junction and 2nd Av. What I think they should do is have some trains originate and terminate at Rockaway Parkway, since we need any available terminal we can get in order to run these many trains. 

The big limiter on  line TPH is not Metro -- it's Myrtle jct and the Willy B (whose timers may actually be the undoing of shutdown plans). If it was Metro, I'm sure one of the geniuses at OP would have already thought of reinstalling the 3rd track at Wyckoff for termination -- that isn't a big build. 

 

On 4/13/2018 at 4:40 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

But doesn’t the FPY lead track face the wrong way for Wyckoff? If anything, it looks like it leads into Metropolitan. 

You'd run up to Metro, go into service as a normal , and run from there. Nothing too crazy. 

[officiallyliam]

22 minutes ago, RR503 said:

The big limiter on  line TPH is not Metro -- it's Myrtle jct and the Willy B (whose timers may actually be the undoing of shutdown plans). If it was Metro, I'm sure one of the geniuses at OP would have already thought of reinstalling the 3rd track at Wyckoff for termination -- that isn't a big build. 

 

That would require relocation of the elevator leading up to the Myrtle platforms, and would cost a good bit of platform space. Right now, the platform spans across the trackway and often gets crowded - especially when the  is out. 

[RR503]

20 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

That would require relocation of the elevator leading up to the Myrtle platforms, and would cost a good bit of platform space. Right now, the platform spans across the trackway and often gets crowded - especially when the  is out. 

Oh sure, but if the tradeoff is between some elevator work and infrequent  service, I think the latter would be regarded as the lesser of two evils. Remember platform crowding is a function of frequency. Again, this isn't an actual proposal, merely a hypothetical. 

 

[CenSin]

With the continued growth of the area, one wonders if the flat junction at Myrtle Avenue will have to be redone. Unlike the junction east of Franklin Avenue which still separates traffic going in different directions, each crossing potentially stops all other traffic through the junction. I’ve thought of a proposed fix:

(A bit of a crude addition to Vanshnookenraggen’s “accurate” track map, which I used because I couldn’t be bothered to draw all the other things on the map. Some things had to be moved around.)

Perhaps something like this will increase capacity through the Myrtle Avenue station. The one remaining factor that needs to be addressed after would be the East River crossing. If relaxing the signals to allow for higher speeds is not possible, then a much more expensive project would be necessary to bring more capacity between Manhattan and Brooklyn.