Fix & Fortify - 14th Street (L Train) Tunnels Closure

[MysteriousBtrain]

1 minute ago, Lawrence St said:

My god, the rudeness.

I know trains use the middle track, I'm saying if an is switching to the middle track it would cause delays to the behind it. I've ridden the for the past 6 months and I'm seen this problem happen millions of times.

1-2 minutes lost. Very sad to lose those minutes. You also have more delays LEAVING Broadway Junction than arriving at Broadway Junction. Unless overcrowding is the 's fault.

[RR503]

10 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

My god, the rudeness.

I know trains use the middle track, I'm saying if an is switching to the middle track it would cause delays to the behind it. I've ridden the for the past 6 months and I'm seen this problem happen millions of times.

s causing delays to s behind them at the junction only is an issue when there’s already an  on the middle track — otherwise it’s a diverging move like any other. For delays because of the  merging in when leaving Broadway Jct, you can hold the  for 40 seconds as the  clears the interlocking — slow speed through the switches will provide the rest of the separation for you. 

I guess I apologize for being snappy, but you seriously can’t expect people to read some meaning that you didn’t write. Fumigation simply doesn’t take place at Broadway Junction — that’s a relay terminal issue. 

[N6 Limited]

A lot of  riders are transferring to other lines once they get to Manhattan anyway, this is getting blown out of proportion.  Williamsburg riders are just going to have to use the on on both sides and use Herald Square, Broadway-Lafayette and West 4th Street for Transfers. 

They have plenty of options to get across the river  some of which via  , if one way sucks, they'll find another. If the  is too packed from Ct Square, they can take it to Queens Plaza and take the  from there, if that sucks take the to Hoyt-Schemerhorn for the     . If they're really savvy they'll do out of system Transfers like Hoyt Schemerhorn to Hoyt St on the  etc. 

It would make things easier if the  was extended to, or past Queens Plaza for much easier transfers.

Send the  to Astoria with a less frequent  to Forest Hills to reduce the conga.  But then again Queens Blvd is always screwed up so keeping the  off the QBL helps maintain consistent service levels.

2 hours ago, TheNewYorkElevated said:

I don't know if it's just me, but I don't understand the media hype around this shutdown. It hasn't started yet, and a lot of people are already worried. 

Ratings. 

[RR503]

3 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

A lot of  riders are transferring to other lines once they get to Manhattan anyway, this is getting blown out of proportion.  Williamsburg riders are just going to have to use the on on both sides and use Herald Square, Broadway-Lafayette and West 4th Street for Transfers. 

This logical line is tempting but false. On the majority of the lines you mentioned ( ) the  shutdown will be shifting transfer riders from stops within the core to stops upstream of peak load points. That shift will consequently have an outsized effect on crowding, and therefore line performance. 

3 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

They have plenty of options to get across the river  some of which via  , if one way sucks, they'll find another. If the  is too packed from Ct Square, they can take it to Queens Plaza and take the  from there, if that sucks take the to Hoyt-Schemerhorn for the     . If they're really savvy they'll do out of system Transfers like Hoyt Schemerhorn to Hoyt St on the  etc. 

Save for the  and , all of those lines are already quite close to capacity.

I don't mean to be alarmist, but the effect these 225,000 displaced riders will have is going to be marked. The MTA has already shown itself to be wholly incompetent when it comes to handling dwell, so unless there is a culture/operations change, you're gonna end up with nearly a quarter million angry, displaced  riders causing rampant delays, thereby restricting capacity, causing more crowding and so on. I know it seems all macho and 'New York tough' not to be concerned about this, but I dare you to attempt the  on day one. 

Not. Pretty. 

4 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

 It would make things easier if the  was extended to, or past Queens Plaza for much easier transfers.

 Send the  to Astoria with a less frequent  to Forest Hills to reduce the conga.  But then again Queens Blvd is always screwed up so keeping the  off the QBL helps maintain consistent service levels.

I think that that last line is most important. Introducing another merge to what are arguably the two most crucial lines to the Canarsie shutdown -- the  and  -- seems like a patently poor idea. 

[Lawrence St]

What I'm afraid will happen is the amount of people that will be waiting on the sidewalks and on the platforms when the shuts down...

[N6 Limited]

1 minute ago, Lawrence St said:

What I'm afraid will happen is the amount of people that will be waiting on the sidewalks and on the platforms when the shuts down...

Do you mean on 14th st? Because the  will still be running, but not into Manhattan.

[officiallyliam]

7 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

But if we would have trains ending at Broadway Junction that would cause fumigation on the  and  which will already be at max capacity. It's best to reroute those trains away as much as possible.  

Terminating s at Broadway Junction requires no fumigation; it's been done every day for the last eight months. The won't be at max capacity, and even if it were, it shouldn't be affected too greatly by the small number of rush-hour trains terminating at Broadway Junction.

[N6 Limited]

Why don't they just extend the Houston St express tracks beyond 2nd Ave through to, and under Metroplitan Ave and link into the Canarsie Line just west of Lorimer Street Station?  😏

[Coney Island Av]

13 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Why don't they just extend the Houston St express tracks beyond 2nd Ave through to, and under Metroplitan Ave and link into the Canarsie Line just west of Lorimer Street Station?  😏

In the amount of time it would take to even study/plan this extension, the shutdown will be long over. If it took us 100 years to get to three stops on the Upper East Side, then I'd highly doubt we could even secure funding for this to built. 

And that's not even considering the amount of tunnel-boring that would need to be done. 

[LGA Link N Train]

14 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Why don't they just extend the Houston St express tracks beyond 2nd Ave through to, and under Metroplitan Ave and link into the Canarsie Line just west of Lorimer Street Station?  😏

That would be complete WAYYY after the train shutdown. I'd give a better explanation but @Coney Island Av beat me to it

[RR503]

8 minutes ago, Coney Island Av said:

In the amount of time it would take to even study/plan this extension, the shutdown will be long over. If it took us 100 years to get to three stops on the Upper East Side, then I'd highly doubt we could even secure funding for this to built. 

And that's not even considering the amount of tunnel-boring that would need to be done. 

 

6 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

That would be complete WAYYY after the train shutdown. I'd give a better explanation but @Coney Island Av beat me to it

The quoted post is a textbook case of a species of human humor known as sarcasm. The fact it is as such can be divined from tone — as this post — and from the fact it has a sideways looking emoticon at the end. I highly encourage you to research this mode of communication further; it can be quite rewarding. 

[Wallyhorse]

On 4/27/2018 at 5:38 PM, MysteriousBtrain said:

Not that I am saying this [plan] will happen, but it can (and probably will) be possible for the to run less frequently than it does now, so at least some peak (m) can fit to the line to Canarsie

The only way to me that realistically could have been done would have been to rebuild Atlantic Avenue to four tracks and set it up with the outer tracks go to/from Canarsie and the inner tracks go to/from the Broadway-Brooklyn line (or the reverse where the inner tracks go to Canarise and outer to the flyover if need be).  That would have allowed some trains to terminate at Atlantic while a few peak-hour trains could run say Canarsie to 96th Street-2nd Avenue.

[Wallyhorse]

On 4/29/2018 at 2:18 PM, N6 Limited said:

A lot of  riders are transferring to other lines once they get to Manhattan anyway, this is getting blown out of proportion.  Williamsburg riders are just going to have to use the on on both sides and use Herald Square, Broadway-Lafayette and West 4th Street for Transfers. 

They have plenty of options to get across the river  some of which via  , if one way sucks, they'll find another. If the  is too packed from Ct Square, they can take it to Queens Plaza and take the  from there, if that sucks take the to Hoyt-Schemerhorn for the     . If they're really savvy they'll do out of system Transfers like Hoyt Schemerhorn to Hoyt St on the  etc. 

It would make things easier if the  was extended to, or past Queens Plaza for much easier transfers.

Send the  to Astoria with a less frequent  to Forest Hills to reduce the conga.  But then again Queens Blvd is always screwed up so keeping the  off the QBL helps maintain consistent service levels.

As said before, I would add a new OOS at Fulton from the to the at Atlantic-Barclays and encourage riders to go that route instead of to Court Square that I see becoming a disaster.  Short of the and ALL going to 179 (allowing the  to stop at Queens Plaza that would allow some to transfer to the there or the at Queensboro Plaza), I don't see this working unless you have the OOS transfer the other way to take enough pressure off Court Square.  

[N6 Limited]

1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

As said before, I would add a new OOS at Fulton from the to the at Atlantic-Barclays and encourage riders to go that route instead of to Court Square that I see becoming a disaster.  Short of the and ALL going to 179 (allowing the  to stop at Queens Plaza that would allow some to transfer to the there or the at Queensboro Plaza), I don't see this working unless you have the OOS transfer the other way to take enough pressure off Court Square.  

An OOS between Atlantic Center and Fulton St on the  would help, but the MTA is probably concerned about lost revenue due to stop overs at Atlantic Center and round-trip exploits of an OSS transfer there.

[Union Tpke]

3 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

An OOS between Atlantic Center and Fulton St on the  would help, but the MTA is probably concerned about lost revenue due to stop overs at Atlantic Center and round-trip exploits of an OSS transfer there.

They could have transfer tap outs like they have on the London Underground, except there they are used to calculate fares. You could tap (or swipe) your fare when exiting and you would get ten minutes for a transfer. That could get rid of the stopover issue.

Also, I love Geoff Marshall's videos.

[RR503]

5 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

The only way to me that realistically could have been done would have been to rebuild Atlantic Avenue to four tracks and set it up with the outer tracks go to/from Canarsie and the inner tracks go to/from the Broadway-Brooklyn line (or the reverse where the inner tracks go to Canarise and outer to the flyover if need be).  That would have allowed some trains to terminate at Atlantic while a few peak-hour trains could run say Canarsie to 96th Street-2nd Avenue.

Canarsie terminal can process 20tph. Forgive me if I can't do math, but with the  running 8tph during the shutdown, the extra 12tph should be enough to run a few  to Canarsie. Even in regular service this'd be possible -- remember that many s don't go beyond Wyckoff. 

Regardless, I really don't think creating a through running train that with merging and connector speed limits would in all probability take longer than the equivalent transfer is a good use of agency time, money and cars. 

[N6 Limited]

1 hour ago, Union Tpke said:

They could have transfer tap outs like they have on the London Underground, except there they are used to calculate fares. You could tap (or swipe) your fare when exiting and you would get ten minutes for a transfer. That could get rid of the stopover issue.

Also, I love Geoff Marshall's videos.

Thats interesting. If something like that was here it would only be available on the and lol

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 4/29/2018 at 11:25 AM, TheNewYorkElevated said:

I don't know if it's just me, but I don't understand the media hype around this shutdown. It hasn't started yet, and a lot of people are already worried. 

With the sheer number of riders that will be affected and the lack of good alternative means of transport between Williamsburg and Manhattan, it’s not hard to see why there’s so much media hype. This isn’t like the  shutdown, where they could easily split the line into two sections and transport riders on multiple nearby parallel subway lines. Not to mention the  carries only about a third of the riders the  carries between Brooklyn and Manhattan.

On 4/29/2018 at 12:44 PM, RR503 said:

Yes, there has been a lot of sturm und drang about all this, and yes, it's eating up coverage of other issues with less defined endpoints, but I don't think a certain level of public concern is unwarranted.

This is 225,000 people being displaced from their regular commutes. While a small fraction of subway ridership overall, their displacement onto other lines which have their own rider bases to please is going to upset whatever balance our system has today. It may not be the total armageddon some seem to think, but a cool 200k riders is nothing to laugh at, especially when seen through the light of the managerial incompetence and dysfunction that is currently plaguing the agency. 

Now, of course, there are plans to mitigate all this, but I think it is from those plans that much of the concern is coming. Between the lateness of the 179 order, the discord over street usage in Manhattan, the timers on the Williamsburg Bridge, and the notable lack of capacity at key transfer points, it is very possible that the MTA/DOT's already half-baked mitigation efforts will be thrown to the wind by circumstance, worsening the shutdown exponentially. 

Regardless, I think we should be focusing less on how to dehype the L shutdown to benefit other issues, and more on how to similarly emphasize the importance of other transit issues in NYC. In the last few years, the MTA has been thrown squarely into the centre of civic dialogue, and around the L -- which has become the poster-child for a system in decay -- that dialogue has been especially intense given the sheer scale of the effort that needs to be undertaken. Yes, many ideas that have got attention can best be described as batshit crazy, but at least we've shocked NYC planners/MTA out of their complacent, conservative transit thinking. We should be looking to perpetuate that sort of disruptive, irreverent thought, instead of trying to suppress it. 

That’s also why I understand all the media hype. What if the DOT’s and MTA’s plans to transport all those folks between Williamsburg and Manhattan aren’t enough and have to get thrown to the wind? What then?

[Wallyhorse]

10 hours ago, RR503 said:

Canarsie terminal can process 20tph. Forgive me if I can't do math, but with the  running 8tph during the shutdown, the extra 12tph should be enough to run a few  to Canarsie. Even in regular service this'd be possible -- remember that many s don't go beyond Wyckoff. 

Regardless, I really don't think creating a through running train that with merging and connector speed limits would in all probability take longer than the equivalent transfer is a good use of agency time, money and cars. 

I would run any trains from Broadway-Brooklyn to Canarsie as and have those be Canarsie to 96th Street-2nd Avenue.  

[R68OnBroadway]

21 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

I would run any trains from Broadway-Brooklyn to Canarsie as and have those be Canarsie to 96th Street-2nd Avenue.  

That's a route only a fan trip will ever take. Also, since you constantly talk about the UES having some huge political clout, they would never have a service from ENY and Canarsie as those people are "not their kind".

[biGC323232]

3 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

That's a route only a fan trip will ever take. Also, since you constantly talk about the UES having some huge political clout, they would never have a service from ENY and Canarsie as those people are "not their kind".

There are 5 station before Bway Jct where as riders does take a one seat ride into manhattan so adding a few trips in the morning rush from rkwy pkwy via bway up 6av to 96 st or even 71st forest hill  wont be a waist in my opinion....I wouldnt label them as 's tho more likely 's...

[Around the Horn]

13 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Also, since you constantly talk about the UES having some huge political clout, they would never have a service from ENY and Canarsie as those people are "not their kind".

Someone gets it...

[Wallyhorse]

3 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

That's a route only a fan trip will ever take. Also, since you constantly talk about the UES having some huge political clout, they would never have a service from ENY and Canarsie as those people are "not their kind".

Yeah, but I was thinking in terms of distinguishing that route from the (M) and not confuse riders in Brooklyn by making such two distinct routes.

And besides, Those in Canarsie can already get to the UES rather easily now as it is, so I don't think that would be a concern.

[kosciusko]

1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

Yeah, but I was thinking in terms of distinguishing that route from the and not confuse riders in Brooklyn by making such two distinct routes.

 And besides, Those in Canarsie can already get to the UES rather easily now as it is, so I don't think that would be a concern.

Something tells me that you just want the  rollsign used...

[T to Dyre Avenue]

6 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

I would run any trains from Broadway-Brooklyn to Canarsie as and have those be Canarsie to 96th Street-2nd Avenue.  

I would run any trains from Broadway-Brooklyn to Canarsie as ( T ) and have those be Canarsie to 179th St-Jamaica via the 53rd St Tunnel and Queens Blvd/Hillside Local.

I've probably mentioned this already

51 minutes ago, kosciusko said:

Something tells me that you just want the  rollsign used...

...which they won't do anyway because the only trains that have a T rollsign are the R32s and they don't want R32s on the  during the shutdown.