Why Your Subway Train Might Start Moving Faster

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

12 hours ago, P3F said:

That video is over 10 years old.

I know, I should've worded better. If trains were able to whip out that fast 10 yrs ago I wonder if the new speeds allow that type of acceleration because I'm sure that wasn't the normal speed when he pulled out that station. Most trains I've been on go much slower than that. 

[N6 Limited]

8 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

It truly is amazing what a few miles per hour can do. All of my trips have been faster and it's thrown off my timing.

For the first time in three years, I'm allotting too much time and that's a great thing.

That's exactly the point (This also goes for driving and bus speeds), riders complained (and voted with the ridership drop and their For Hire rides), Byford had to smack common sense into operations.

[Enjineer]

On 3/5/2019 at 11:20 AM, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

new speeds allow that type of acceleration

I once was on an R42  that had an operator in training, and I overheard the supervisor explaining that they should always use the highest power level when leaving a station, even with speed restrictions, and only cut/lower power upon nearing that limit. Also, they may have adjusted the acceleration curves on the NTTs to be faster or slower

[Union Tpke]

 

[N6 Limited]

Good to see some IND increases. (CPW @ 125th st)

-  Entering Borough Hall NB from 19MPH to Limit Removed - I never understood why the train kinda cruised into the station anyway. They should blast past Hoyt Street and into Borough Hall.

They also increased the North end Nevins crawl from 10 to 20 on the  (NB) and 10 to 15 on the  (Both directions). 

The  is getting a much needed energy boost.

[RR503]

1 hour ago, N6 Limited said:

-  Entering Borough Hall NB from 19MPH to Limit Removed - I never understood why the train kinda cruised into the station anyway. They should blast past Hoyt Street and into Borough Hall.

This one actually isn't much of an increase. There's still a one shot GT20 there. 

[N6 Limited]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

This one actually isn't much of an increase. There's still a one shot GT20 there. 

How do they address something like that? Disable?

[RR503]

2 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

How do they address something like that? Disable?

It's complicated.

IINM, unenforced speed signage -- the things they've been changing -- are not considered in maximum attainable speed calculations for a given point on the line, meaning that changing them has little safety impact beyond forces related to track geometry.

Timers are different. Because they're enforced limits, they are assumed to have an affect on a train's speed profile (which is, indeed, why many exist) meaning that changing them requires there to be a way to mitigate the effect on stopping distances in order to preserve system safety. There are absolutely places where timers have been installed in such a way that they have an impact that goes above and beyond what the dictates of safety require, but generally speaking, they are impossible to eliminate without changing stopping distances (so increasing brake rates) or modifying accompanying equipment (so lengthening control lines, modifying interlockings, etc.) 

You all should read the NYCSubway page on signals. It gives an excellent overview of much of this stuff -- essential reading for those looking to understand these issues. 

https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Subway_Signals:_A_Complete_Guide

[N6 Limited]

3 hours ago, RR503 said:

It's complicated.

IINM, unenforced speed signage -- the things they've been changing -- are not considered in maximum attainable speed calculations for a given point on the line, meaning that changing them has little safety impact beyond forces related to track geometry.

Timers are different. Because they're enforced limits, they are assumed to have an affect on a train's speed profile (which is, indeed, why many exist) meaning that changing them requires there to be a way to mitigate the effect on stopping distances in order to preserve system safety. There are absolutely places where timers have been installed in such a way that they have an impact that goes above and beyond what the dictates of safety require, but generally speaking, they are impossible to eliminate without changing stopping distances (so increasing brake rates) or modifying accompanying equipment (so lengthening control lines, modifying interlockings, etc.) 

You all should read the NYCSubway page on signals. It gives an excellent overview of much of this stuff -- essential reading for those looking to understand these issues. 

https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Subway_Signals:_A_Complete_Guide

Thanks, I heard they reduced the effectiveness of emergency breaks so that passengers don't get knocked down, is that true?

[P3F]

I'd like to ask a question about timers. Before a station there is a sign saying ST 15, and then a bit closer to the station there is another sign (on the same track) saying 35 Miles, shortly before a signal. I presume the second sign means that the signal should be passed at no more than 35 mph, but how does the ST 15 sign affect operations?

[RR503]

8 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Thanks, I heard they reduced the effectiveness of emergency breaks so that passengers don't get knocked down, is that true?

That's what caused many of the braking distance issues, yes. 

8 hours ago, P3F said:

I'd like to ask a question about timers. Before a station there is a sign saying ST 15, and then a bit closer to the station there is another sign (on the same track) saying 35 Miles, shortly before a signal. I presume the second sign means that the signal should be passed at no more than 35 mph, but how does the ST 15 sign affect operations?

The 35 miles and ST 15 signs apply in different types of operation. In clear running, the ST15 will have no bearing on train speed but the 35 will -- that's the maximum speed through the area. When there's a train in the station, however, the ST 15 sign indicates to a following train that it can run at 15mph to close in on the leader via station time. 

[LTA1992]

My dad got from Wakefield to Coney in two hours flat two days ago.

The trip usually takes 2hrs45 to 3hrs.

Mind you, he himself suspected the changes a week ago and only just now paid attention.

Being somewhat a lover of trains himself, let's just say he's been getting flashbacks.

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

My dad got from Wakefield to Coney in two hours flat two days ago.

The trip usually takes 2hrs45 to 3hrs.

Mind you, he himself suspected the changes a week ago and only just now paid attention.

Being somewhat a lover of trains himself, let's just say he's been getting flashbacks.

 

Trains are moving faster but the signal delays and switch problems are still crippling service. They also are not sending out trains which is exacerbating the overcrowding. This morning I took the subway down thinking I would get in earlier since traffic has been so bad. I was late again... The train was PACKED. I purposely got a  train and figured I'd get off at 137th and wait for an empty one. Well that train wasn't sent out so I had to wait two more trains before I could get on one.  The  and  were equally packed. Was able to fit on the third train with no issues.  Once we got on a train we moved, but there were clearly some problems this morning despite the "Good Service" sign.

[Union Tpke]

@RR503 What a difference two T/Os can make. Yesterday my train got stuck at 75th like usual (not the T/O's fault), crawled into 63rd, and went 8 MPH at a GT25 to get into Roosevelt. It only went 34 or so through Woodhaven and 39 or so through 65th. Today, my train already had the lineup at 75th. No delay through 63rd, no stop at the middle of Elmhurst, instead cruising through, and the train likely went 25 through the GT25. I can't say for sure because the cab door was dirty, but this is the fastest I have been on a train heading into Roosevelt. The train went fast around Woodhaven and 65th. It took me 35 minutes to get from home to Hunter. After looking at travel times expected on Google Maps, this trip should regularly take 36-37 minutes during rush hour. This should be the norm, but it isn't, which makes my ride exceptional.

[RR503]

1 hour ago, Union Tpke said:

@RR503 What a difference two T/Os can make. Yesterday my train got stuck at 75th like usual (not the T/O's fault), crawled into 63rd, and went 8 MPH at a GT25 to get into Roosevelt. It only went 34 or so through Woodhaven and 39 or so through 65th. Today, my train already had the lineup at 75th. No delay through 63rd, no stop at the middle of Elmhurst, instead cruising through, and the train likely went 25 through the GT25. I can't say for sure because the cab door was dirty, but this is the fastest I have been on a train heading into Roosevelt. The train went fast around Woodhaven and 65th. It took me 35 minutes to get from home to Hunter. After looking at travel times expected on Google Maps, this trip should regularly take 36-37 minutes during rush hour. This should be the norm, but it isn't, which makes my ride exceptional.

The timers entering Roosevelt aren’t actually GTs, they’re STs, and across the board really T/Os are afraid of using STs. 

Your point about operator variability still stands, though. I’ve been going up CPW a lot lately, and the n/b express stretch is really *the* perfect place to illustrate the importance of good ops. Usually it takes 7-8 mins; yesterday it took 6 flat, as the TO wrapped it up out of 59, and then north of 86 kept the timers clearing right in front of him all the way up. Multiply these variances across a long line, and you have the difference between a functional trip and one that’s hitting its merges late and then arriving at the terminal with zero time before making its next trip. 

[Union Tpke]

31 minutes ago, RR503 said:

The timers entering Roosevelt aren’t actually GTs, they’re STs, and across the board really T/Os are afraid of using STs.

Correction noted. What is the best way to ease their fears?

Your point about operator variability still stands, though. I’ve been going up CPW a lot lately, and the n/b express stretch is really *the* perfect place to illustrate the importance of good ops. Usually it takes 7-8 mins; yesterday it took 6 flat, as the TO wrapped it up out of 59, and then north of 86 kept the timers clearing right in front of him all the way up. Multiply these variances across a long line, and you have the difference between a functional trip and one that’s hitting its merges late and then arriving at the terminal with zero time before making its next trip. 

 

[RR503]

It's the same game as other timers, really -- restoring operator confidence in their proper function -- though STs have the added dimension of necessitating the encouragement of ops to enter stations on ST, which is rarely done today. A pet idea of mine is to attach countdown indications to STs also, but that's unlikely to happen... 

[Union Tpke]

3 minutes ago, RR503 said:

It's the same game as other timers, really -- restoring operator confidence in their proper function -- though STs have the added dimension of necessitating the encouragement of ops to enter stations on ST, which is rarely done today. A pet idea of mine is to attach countdown indications to STs also, but that's unlikely to happen... 

How much do you think your proposed modification would cost for a single signal?

[RR503]

2 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

How much do you think your proposed modification would cost for a single signal?

Can't give you an exact figure, but I wouldn't imagine that it'd be more than a few thousand per signal. 

Speaking of countdowns, the indications on the n/b express track between Franklin and Atlantic are live, as well as the one on the one shot on the s/b local entering IRT Times Square

[LTA1992]

On 3/13/2019 at 4:03 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Trains are moving faster but the signal delays and switch problems are still crippling service. They also are not sending out trains which is exacerbating the overcrowding. This morning I took the subway down thinking I would get in earlier since traffic has been so bad. I was late again... The train was PACKED. I purposely got a  train and figured I'd get off at 137th and wait for an empty one. Well that train wasn't sent out so I had to wait two more trains before I could get on one.  The  and  were equally packed. Was able to fit on the third train with no issues.  Once we got on a train we moved, but there were clearly some problems this morning despite the "Good Service" sign.

What the F does this have to do with my father's experience? My point was that we are noticing SOMETHING. It is completely illogical and irrational to expect perfect service on all parts of a large system no matter what city you go to.

Side note, Good and Perfect are not synonymous. Good service means exactly that. It's running. Delays are inevitable. Especially at effing RUSH HOUR.

Also, the being packed is as normal as the sun coming up. No amount of CBTC is gonna change that. Zero signal failures won't change that. Have you forgotten 2/3 or all New Yorkers use the subways? We should be LUCKY it isn't worse. The areas the Broadway-7th Ave line services are hella dense. No one should be surprised at this.

And then, for some odd reason, you thought the next  (or somehow that they would send one out of the yard right when you needed it even though they have this thing called a schedule they work off of) was gonna be any different? At 137th? Lmaoooo! In what world? Anyone with an iota of critical thinking skills would have questioned that thinking immediately.

That "kerfuffle" of a commute would have been way easier if you never got off that train in the first place. YOU made you late. Not the subways.

Anywho, this tunnel vision of yours has been tired for 10 years. Little victories matter too.

Edited March 18, 2019 by LTA1992

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

What the F does this have to do with my father's experience? My point was that we are noticing SOMETHING. It is completely illogical and irrational to expect perfect service on all parts of a large system no matter what city you go to.

Side note, Good and Perfect are not synonymous. Good service means exactly that. It's running. Delays are inevitable. Especially at effing RUSH HOUR.

Also, the being packed is as normal as the sun coming up. No amount of CBTC is gonna change that. Zero signal failures won't change that. Have you forgotten 2/3 or all New Yorkers use the subways? We should be LUCKY it isn't worse. The areas the Broadway-7th Ave line services are hella dense. No one should be surprised at this.

And then, for some odd reason, you thought the next  (or somehow that they would send one out of the yard right when you needed it even though they have this thing called a schedule they work off of) was gonna be any different? At 137th? Lmaoooo! In what world? Anyone with an iota of critical thinking skills would have questioned that thinking immediately.

That "kerfuffle" of a commute would have been way easier if you never got off that train in the first place. YOU made you late. Not the subways.

Anywho, this tunnel vision of yours has been tired for 10 years. Little victories matter too.

It was about right when I need it genius. It’s called a schedule and one was due from the yard at 137th as is always the case at various times during the morning rush precisely because of the overcrowding. If you weren’t so busy in la la land you would get a clue. I have taken that train numerous times in fact.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Via Garibaldi 8

[LTA1992]

I am happy to report that as of today, I am sold on the improvement numbers.

Why?

I should have been at least 30 minutes late for work today. Left late, missed my train, and my was stop and go from Prospect all the way to Union Square.

I got to work at 9 on the dot. 233rd to Bedford (L). Mind you, I told my boss is be late because we just kept stopping so much. Next thing you know, it's 8:57 and I'm approaching the days location.

I still can't believe it.

I think that if the current rate keeps up, and politics and don't screw us over, we should be in a good place by 2022.

And considering NYS still owes over $7B, imagine what could be accomplished if Albany pays what they've owed for two years.

[R68OnBroadway]

1 hour ago, LTA1992 said:

I am happy to report that as of today, I am sold on the improvement numbers.

Why?

I should have been at least 30 minutes late for work today. Left late, missed my train, and my was stop and go from Prospect all the way to Union Square.

I got to work at 9 on the dot. 233rd to Bedford (L). Mind you, I told my boss is be late because we just kept stopping so much. Next thing you know, it's 8:57 and I'm approaching the days location.

I still can't believe it.

I think that if the current rate keeps up, and politics and don't screw us over, we should be in a good place by 2022.

And considering NYS still owes over $7B, imagine what could be accomplished if Albany pays what they've owed for two years.

Was at GCT  yesterday and was surprised on how less crowded it is and how trains are more frequent... flagging rules also appear to have been changed as trains seem to run faster around workers if they are on the opposite side of the adjacent track... however I would say wait times could be better.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Increased speeds are nice, but they're meaningless if trains have to hold at each station to make up the time saved.

[RR503]

22 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Increased speeds are nice, but they're meaningless if trains have to hold at each station to make up the time saved.

Trains were running somewhat behind schedule before, which means that they’re merely achieving schedule now. No need for holds, especially given that (in theory) holds-to-time were abolished.