Bay Ridge area politicians call for split R train

[Wallyhorse]

On 10/2/2021 at 12:30 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Well if the current  is split, then the  has to be extended to Brooklyn. You can’t turn both the  and  at Whitehall and City Hall Lower isn’t an optimal place to turn an entire line’s worth of trains. However, if the  is extended to Brooklyn, it should be all the way down the 4th Ave line to Bay Ridge. It definitely shouldn’t duplicate the , nor delay the ,  and Nassau ( R ) at 36th St.

And yes, you really do need the old Nassau St track configuration if you want to run an R there. That may be a factor in why they wouldn’t want to if talk of splitting the  ever gains serious traction.

One major difference though:

In a rebuild of the area that un-abandons the northern platforms at Canal Street and Bowery, you can have the come in from Chambers and use the inner tracks at Canal to terminate, something you could NOT do in the old setup.  In the old setup, there was a crossover at the south end of the Canal Street Station that only allowed for trains coming off the Willy B to terminate at Canal, something that would not be there in this version.  Generally, in this setup except for some trains during peak periods, the would terminate on what currently is the northbound track that would go back to being the southbound "express" track (the would go back to being on the old northbound track with both the east and west platforms being used at Canal and Bowery) and would start back on that track. 

And this would be the only train as it would no longer serve Broadway at all (moving full-time to Nassau running the old "Bankers Special" route from 95th but to Canal Street 24/7).   would be moved to the tunnel and serve lower Manhattan on the Broadway line as the full-time Broadway local (and actually double service to/from Jay-Metrotech and Court Street).

 

On 10/4/2021 at 9:20 AM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

But then, what would replace the  during midnights? The ? I'd prefer a 24/7  between Bay Ridge and Astoria and have the  to continue to 2nd Ave via the . Then we can get rid of that insufferable  merge at 34th St. For me, the point of the Astoria   / Forest Hills  is to have the northbound  no longer merge with them at 34 (or Prince St on weekends) and clogging up the Broadway Line. 

The  would have to run to 71st-Continental on weekends if the  replaces the  on QBL unless the  is expanded to weekend service. I would be fine with that.

In this format, the  on Nassau would return to being a 24/7 line, actually extended to Metropolitan Avenue in the overnights and on weekends, absorbing the late night and weekend shuttles in that scenario (unless it happens to be a weekend the is running to 96th/2nd, then the would terminate at Canal Street).  This  would originate out of East New York with trains on yard runs beginning and ending at Broadway Junction, extended there in both directions and would be scheduled that way.

 

On 10/3/2021 at 8:32 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

This whole idea of a split  train is, IMO, bogus from the start. Simple solution is to run the  from Astoria to 95th St  days and evenings with a shuttle service midnights in Brooklyn. Give the  the Queens Blvd local service weekdays and be done with it. The  and  bracket the  line through most of Manhattan anyway. We have some people and the  gushing over the new connections in Midtown so why not use it ? This way I think the  gets more reliable in Brooklyn and ties in with the  line while the  becomes a part of the Jamaica yard. Before some people start crying about this thing remember that QBL connection was only a weekday thing when the Brighton local line ran out to Forest Hills. Even when the BMT-IND combination came into being it was the  that provided weekday service only. Just my opinion. Carry on.

While I agree, the current would disagree with you IMO. That's why I propose having the run the old  "Bankers Special" except it would be a 24/7 line that would begin and end on the northern part at a rebuilt Canal Street Station (the east/northbound platforms at Canal Street and Bowery being re-activated) with this  ending at Canal Street (except nights and weekends when it would be extended to Metropolitan) and the  /  ending at Chambers 24/7.  The as I would do it would mainly be Whitehall-Astoria as it is now with the replacing the  as the Broadway local from Brooklyn, but with overflow trains running to Bay Parkway or 9th Avenue on the  with Coney Island Yard as its base.  

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 10/6/2021 at 1:48 AM, Wallyhorse said:

One major difference though:

In a rebuild of the area that un-abandons the northern platforms at Canal Street and Bowery, you can have the come in from Chambers and use the inner tracks at Canal to terminate, something you could NOT do in the old setup.  In the old setup, there was a crossover at the south end of the Canal Street Station that only allowed for trains coming off the Willy B to terminate at Canal, something that would not be there in this version.  Generally, in this setup except for some trains during peak periods, the would terminate on what currently is the northbound track that would go back to being the southbound "express" track (the would go back to being on the old northbound track with both the east and west platforms being used at Canal and Bowery) and would start back on that track. 

And this would be the only train as it would no longer serve Broadway at all (moving full-time to Nassau running the old "Bankers Special" route from 95th but to Canal Street 24/7).   would be moved to the tunnel and serve lower Manhattan on the Broadway line as the full-time Broadway local (and actually double service to/from Jay-Metrotech and Court Street).

 

In this format, the  on Nassau would return to being a 24/7 line, actually extended to Metropolitan Avenue in the overnights and on weekends, absorbing the late night and weekend shuttles in that scenario (unless it happens to be a weekend the is running to 96th/2nd, then the would terminate at Canal Street).  This  would originate out of East New York with trains on yard runs beginning and ending at Broadway Junction, extended there in both directions and would be scheduled that way.

 

While I agree, the current would disagree with you IMO. That's why I propose having the run the old  "Bankers Special" except it would be a 24/7 line that would begin and end on the northern part at a rebuilt Canal Street Station (the east/northbound platforms at Canal Street and Bowery being re-activated) with this  ending at Canal Street (except nights and weekends when it would be extended to Metropolitan) and the  /  ending at Chambers 24/7.  The as I would do it would mainly be Whitehall-Astoria as it is now with the replacing the  as the Broadway local from Brooklyn, but with overflow trains running to Bay Parkway or 9th Avenue on the  with Coney Island Yard as its base.  

But the current MTA are disagreeing with you too. And pretty much everyone else who’s posted in this thread. I think Andy Byford was open to breaking up the , but the other Andy forced him out and then Covid struck us badly, so no thought about that (or swapping the  and  between Queens and Manhattan, which also would have considerably improved  train reliability). With Byford back in London and Cuomo’s yes-men in charge now, the MTA seems to have turned back into the sclerotic bureaucracy it was under Ronnie Hakim. 

Unless either the  or  is being rerouted to Forest Hills to replace the , why make the  full-time local again and keep the  as is? Why not just extend the  to Bay Ridge as a second 4th Ave/Bay Ridge local alongside Nassau St ( R ) and leave the  as is? 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[T to Dyre Avenue]

13 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

But the current MTA are disagreeing with you too. And pretty much everyone else who’s posted in this thread. I think Andy Byford was open to breaking up the , but the other Andy forced him out and then Covid struck us badly, so no thought about that (or swapping the  and  between Queens and Manhattan, which also would have considerably improved  train reliability). With Byford back in London and Cuomo’s yes-men in charge now, the MTA seems to have turned back into the sclerotic bureaucracy it was under Ronnie Hakim. 

Unless either the  or  is being rerouted to Forest Hills to replace the , why make the  full-time local again and keep the  as is? Why not just extend the  to Bay Ridge as a second 4th Ave/Bay Ridge local alongside Nassau St ( R ) and leave the  as is?

 

Sorry, pressed “Quote” instead going up to the top to select “Edit.” Still not used to that.

Edited October 9, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue
Meant to edit, not quote my post

[Wallyhorse]

56 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

But the current MTA are disagreeing with you too. And pretty much everyone else who’s posted in this thread. I think Andy Byford was open to breaking up the , but the other Andy forced him out and then Covid struck us badly, so no thought about that (or swapping the  and  between Queens and Manhattan, which also would have considerably improved  train reliability). With Byford back in London and Cuomo’s yes-men in charge now, the MTA seems to have turned back into the sclerotic bureaucracy it was under Ronnie Hakim. 

Unless either the  or  is being rerouted to Forest Hills to replace the , why make the  full-time local again and keep the  as is? Why not just extend the  to Bay Ridge as a second 4th Ave/Bay Ridge local alongside Nassau St ( R ) and leave the  as is? 

 

That may be true, but Cuomo is no longer the Governor and Cuomo's "yes men" now have to answer to Kathy Hochul and by 2023 may be answering to someone else as Governor (assuming Cuomo doesn't try to get the Governorship back and is successful doing so).  Perhaps with Cuomo gone and a new Governor in place they would be more open to doing something like re-activating the northbound platforms at Canal and Bowery, which would allow the with the way Canal is now set up and with both platforms at Canal back in operation able to terminate at Canal free and clear of the and , eliminating the need to use Essex as a terminal for a brought-back "Bankers Special" /"Brown "/

As I would do it, the  as the full Broadway and 4th Avenue Local (59th in Brooklyn to Lexington and 60th in Manhattan) would become the full-time train to Forest Hills (including overnights, allowing the  to return to operating as an express on QBL at all times) while the  operates 24/7 from (mainly) Whitehall to Astoria (late nights, the can operate as a shuttle from 34th Street-Astoria if necessary since the and  both would be local in the overnights in Manhattan with overflow trains ending and beginning at Bay Parkway or 9th Avenue on the if necessary).

This would have it:

"Brown "//: 95th Street-Canal Street / station via Montague and Nassau with scheduled yard runs that end and begin at Broadway Junction on the and  and are extended there.  Late nights and weekends, extended via Nassau, Broadway-Brooklyn and Myrtle EL to Metropolitan Avenue station, absorbing and eliminating the current shuttles that operate during those times.

: Broadway/4th Avenue local Coney Island to 71st-Continental via Montague and QBL

: Same as now

: Ditmars Boulevard to Whitehall Street at all times (possibly except late nights when trains would end and begin at 34th Street), overflow trains would end and begin either at 9th Avenue or Bay Parkway on the . 

This to me would fix a lot of the problems with the moved to a much shorter route (at peak hours in particular) on the Nassau line.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

43 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

That may be true, but Cuomo is no longer the Governor and Cuomo's "yes men" now have to answer to Kathy Hochul and by 2023 may be answering to someone else as Governor (assuming Cuomo doesn't try to get the Governorship back and is successful doing so).  Perhaps with Cuomo gone and a new Governor in place they would be more open to doing something like re-activating the northbound platforms at Canal and Bowery, which would allow the with the way Canal is now set up and with both platforms at Canal back in operation able to terminate at Canal free and clear of the and , eliminating the need to use Essex as a terminal for a brought-back "Bankers Special" /"Brown "/

As I would do it, the  as the full Broadway and 4th Avenue Local (59th in Brooklyn to Lexington and 60th in Manhattan) would become the full-time train to Forest Hills (including overnights, allowing the  to return to operating as an express on QBL at all times) while the  operates 24/7 from (mainly) Whitehall to Astoria (late nights, the can operate as a shuttle from 34th Street-Astoria if necessary since the and  both would be local in the overnights in Manhattan with overflow trains ending and beginning at Bay Parkway or 9th Avenue on the if necessary).

This would have it:

"Brown "//: 95th Street-Canal Street / station via Montague and Nassau with scheduled yard runs that end and begin at Broadway Junction on the and  and are extended there.  Late nights and weekends, extended via Nassau, Broadway-Brooklyn and Myrtle EL to Metropolitan Avenue station, absorbing and eliminating the current shuttles that operate during those times.

: Broadway/4th Avenue local Coney Island to 71st-Continental via Montague and QBL

: Same as now

: Ditmars Boulevard to Whitehall Street at all times (possibly except late nights when trains would end and begin at 34th Street), overflow trains would end and begin either at 9th Avenue or Bay Parkway on the . 

This to me would fix a lot of the problems with the moved to a much shorter route (at peak hours in particular) on the Nassau line.

Switch the Queens terminals for the  and  - i.e.,  to Ditmars and  to Continental. That would eliminate all those costly, time-consuming yard moves that will rack up mileage on whichever subway cars are assigned to these services. And run the  express in Brooklyn between 59th and Pacific-Atlantic. There’s no real reason to swap out one garbage three-borough local (the current ) for another, longer garbage three-borough local (your proposed ).

Of course, this still remains my preference, both for solving the reliability problems with the current  and the endless, incessant  delays at DeKalb Junction…

https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2020/10/deinterlining-with-one-switch/

…and I really don’t see why it can’t be done other than good old “This is the way we’ve always done it,” coming from the MTA’s sclerotic bureaucrats.

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue
Clarifying my response

[Wallyhorse]

14 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Switch the Queens terminals for the  and  - i.e.,  to Ditmars and  to Continental. That would eliminate all those costly, time-consuming yard moves that will rack up mileage on whichever subway cars are assigned to these services. And run the  express in Brooklyn between 59th and Pacific-Atlantic. There’s no real reason to swap out one garbage three-borough local (the current ) for another, longer garbage three-borough local (your proposed ).

Of course, this still remains my preference… 

https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2020/10/deinterlining-with-one-switch/

…and I really don’t see why it can’t be done other than good old “That’s the way we’ve always done it,” coming from the MTA’s sclerotic bureaucrats.

 

If it makes more sense to have the and on the opposite terminals, so be it.

You could keep the express in Brooklyn, but the idea is the  except for the very southern portion in Brooklyn would be what was the until 1987, running 4th Avenue and Broadway local to Astoria if the goes there while the runs Whitehall-71st with overflow  trains running as noted.

That said, if you can put in a switch at 59th Street (something that is badly needed there) which allows whatever is running to 95th Street to go to the express or local track south of 59th Street, then putting a 6th Avenue train makes more sense and in fact, I have in the past suggested running the to 95th-Bay Ridge in place of the (traditionalists be dammed and some of them were quite upset when I brought this part up before), with the becoming the Brighton local to Astoria and the going back to being to 71-Continental as an express north of 59th (and the not moving to the local track on Broadway and installing what is necessary to allow the to come in from 60th on the express track at 57/7 with the and switching yards). In this scenario, the  would return to being the West End local as it was in the past and return to being 24/7 while the becomes the full-time Brighton Express from 96th-2nd to Brighton Beach at all times. 

[Wallyhorse]

Adding:

I didn't realize in the Vanhookraggan proposal there would be new switches south of 36th Street.  With that in mind, here's how I would do it:

The current is moved to Nassau as originally proposed as the "Brown "/"Bankers Special" /, running from 95th-Canal Street (Canal on the / rebuilt as previously noted with scheduled yard runs in-service extended from and to Broadway Junction on the / and late nights and weekends extended from and to Metropolitan Avenue, absorbing the late-night and weekend shuttles) as I would expect some pols to still want those south of 36th Street to be able to reach the local stations north of there on 4th Avenue as a one-seat ride, especially those looking to transfer at 9th Street-4th Avenue for the  and specifically.  

The  also starts at 95th Street and runs to Bedford Park Boulevard (rush hours) or 145th Street (all other times except late nights), 4th Avenue local to 36th Street, then express via 4th Avenue (skips DeKalb) and then its current route except for also being express on Central Park West (with the and both running local on CPW).  Late nights, the  would terminate at West 4th with the running local on 6th Avenue.  

The remains where it is as the West End Local

The  remains as is and runs Coney Island via Sea Beach to Astoria at all times, however, signal boxes are put in southbound at 5th Avenue-59th Street and 57th Street-7th Avenue so the can run switch to the express track southbound/stay on the express track northbound to 57th Street instead of switching north of 34th is local via Montegue as it is now late nights.

The  remains where it is as the Brighton Local.

The  goes to 71st-Continental, running as follows:
All Times except late nights: Brighton Express, running from Brighton Beach to Ditmars Boulevard via Brighton Express, the Montague Tunnel, lower Manhattan and Broadway local.

Late Nights: 34th Street, Times Square or 57th Street to 71st-Continental. This allows the to go back to being a QBL express at all times.

This to me can also work.

[mrsman]

On 10/9/2021 at 7:57 PM, Wallyhorse said:

Adding:

I didn't realize in the Vanhookraggan proposal there would be new switches south of 36th Street.  With that in mind, here's how I would do it:

The current is moved to Nassau as originally proposed as the "Brown "/"Bankers Special" /, running from 95th-Canal Street (Canal on the / rebuilt as previously noted with scheduled yard runs in-service extended from and to Broadway Junction on the / and late nights and weekends extended from and to Metropolitan Avenue, absorbing the late-night and weekend shuttles) as I would expect some pols to still want those south of 36th Street to be able to reach the local stations north of there on 4th Avenue as a one-seat ride, especially those looking to transfer at 9th Street-4th Avenue for the  and specifically.  

The  also starts at 95th Street and runs to Bedford Park Boulevard (rush hours) or 145th Street (all other times except late nights), 4th Avenue local to 36th Street, then express via 4th Avenue (skips DeKalb) and then its current route except for also being express on Central Park West (with the and both running local on CPW).  Late nights, the  would terminate at West 4th with the running local on 6th Avenue.  

The remains where it is as the West End Local

The  remains as is and runs Coney Island via Sea Beach to Astoria at all times, however, signal boxes are put in southbound at 5th Avenue-59th Street and 57th Street-7th Avenue so the can run switch to the express track southbound/stay on the express track northbound to 57th Street instead of switching north of 34th is local via Montegue as it is now late nights.

The  remains where it is as the Brighton Local.

The  goes to 71st-Continental, running as follows:
All Times except late nights: Brighton Express, running from Brighton Beach to Ditmars Boulevard via Brighton Express, the Montague Tunnel, lower Manhattan and Broadway local.

Late Nights: 34th Street, Times Square or 57th Street to 71st-Continental. This allows the to go back to being a QBL express at all times.

This to me can also work.

Let me see, if I understand, your plan:

R from Canal to Bay Ridge via Nassau and Montague tunnel and 4th Ave local

 from Forest Hills via QBL local and Broadway local to Montague tunnel continuing as a Brighton express

 from Astoria swtiching onto the Broadway express north of 57th and continuing as a 4th Ave express onto Sea Beach.

 from 2/96 along Broadway express continuing as a Brighton local

 from Bronx/Upper Manhattan along 6th Ave express to 4th Ave express and then transferring to service Bay Ridge

 from Bronx along 6th Ave express to 4th Ave express servicing West End

There certainly appears to be a lot of mixing going on in the above scheme.  Also, it seems that too many train services are serving the 4th Ave express.  

So far, it seems that the vanshnookenraggen plan appears to be the best method of addressing the situation in South Brooklyn.  Broadway locals are separated from Broadway express and are separated from 6th Ave expresses very cleanly.  The only downside appears to be that West End will lose their express service, but this can be addressed with the increased overall service, which lowers overall travel time.

 

At the same time, for purposes of this thread, I really want to entertain the possibility of a Nassau-Bay Ridge service and then seeing where everything else ends up.

(Y)  I will call the service Brown-Y, for lack of a better name, and it will run from Canal to Bay Ridge via Nassau and Montague tunnel along the 4th Ave local.

 from Forest Hills via QBL local and Broadway local to Whitehall

from Astoria via Broadway local and Montague tunnel to 4th Ave local, continuing as service on the Sea Beach line

 and  will be 6th Ave expresses and will service the Brighton line, one line express and one line local.

 will start at 96th/2nd and run along the Broadway express and over the bridge servicing the 4th Ave express to West End.  

The 6th Ave lines (assuming that CPW is also deinterlined) will have no interference with any other line.  As such,  and  can run at full capacity.

 is also fully separated and will run also run at very high capacity.  But both Sea Beach and Bay Ridge passengers will all transfer at 36th for express service, if desired.

Under the above scenario, it is Sea Beach passengers who will lose their direct express service as opposed to the West End passengers.  But the above scenario does produce a very frequent 4th Ave local service between Montague tunnel and 59th street serviced by the combination of  and Y trains.  It will provide bettter access to all of Lower Manhattan for many passengers in south Brooklyn, often with only a single cross-platform transfer.  Most importantly, Broadway in Manhattan is deinterlined as no trains will shift between local and express tracks there.

 

[BreeddekalbL]

To be simple without creating new services i would extend the as a weekday Supplment for the

[R10 2952]

I think this thread ran it's course some time ago and now people are simply beating a dead horse repeatedly.

I also don't see the point of all this considering the system has yet to get back to reasonably normal operations and service levels on account of the whole pandemic situation.

No point in worrying about cleaning up a spill in the kitchen when the entire damn house is on fire.

Edited October 11, 2021 by R10 2952

[bulk88]

On 10/11/2021 at 3:02 PM, R10 2952 said:

I think this thread ran it's course some time ago and now people are simply beating a dead horse repeatedly.

I also don't see the point of all this considering the system has yet to get back to reasonably normal operations and service levels on account of the whole pandemic situation.

All threads on here are foam. Foamers vs neurotypicals (salary transit planners, engineers, and NGO advocates) never talk about headways. Foamers just care about unique stopping patterns that each runs once a day and you must look at the chalkboard in the stationmaster's office to know the train exist so you can get a photo of it. Actually screw the chalkboard, foamers only want parliamentary trains that no other foamers can take a photo of but them because they gave a $100 bill to the dispatcher to find out when that train runs.

 

I know nobody from "Transit industrial complex" ever posts on this site because they would advocate for "hybrid solution" with "mixed running" and "curb regeneration" , aka street running on pantographs of nyc subway cars aka light rail. Add hydrogen or battery buzzwords too to claim "no wires zero CO2" 

[Trainmaster5]

On 10/11/2021 at 3:02 PM, R10 2952 said:

I think this thread ran it's course some time ago and now people are simply beating a dead horse repeatedly.

I also don't see the point of all this considering the system has yet to get back to reasonably normal operations and service levels on account of the whole pandemic situation.

No point in worrying about cleaning up a spill in the kitchen when the entire damn house is on fire.

What is fascinating to me about some ideas is the complete disregard or ignorance about what the agency is doing to the Nassau line. Stations and trackage are being rearranged to eliminate the infrastructure down there but we have some posters ignoring that and advocating more service from the south . That’s a nonstarter. The only service I recall terminating from the south in the Nassau line was the  West End midday line. It only did that because there wasn’t any other place to turn trains back. IIRC the relay tracks north of Chambers are gone, perhaps removed now. The three terminals along Nassau were for the BMT Eastern Division trains coming from the north . Look at what’s being done to the LIRR Atlantic line to Downtown Brooklyn and the Lower Manhattan old time financial district. Nassau St is not a prime destination any more. All I ask is for some people to look at the big picture. The  is broadcasting their plans. My take. Carry on.

 

 

 

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

What is fascinating to me about some ideas is the complete disregard or ignorance about what the agency is doing to the Nassau line. Stations and trackage are being rearranged to eliminate the infrastructure down there but we have some posters ignoring that and advocating more service from the south . That’s a nonstarter. The only service I recall terminating from the south in the Nassau line was the  West End midday line. It only did that because there wasn’t any other place to turn trains back. IIRC the relay tracks north of Chambers are gone, perhaps removed now. The three terminals along Nassau were for the BMT Eastern Division trains coming from the north . Look at what’s being done to the LIRR Atlantic line to Downtown Brooklyn and the Lower Manhattan old time financial district. Nassau St is not a prime destination any more. All I ask is for some people to look at the big picture. The  is broadcasting their plans. My take. Carry on.

Indeed.

Some people will argue til they're blue in the face that Nassau-South Brooklyn service is useful because it provides an alternative, but the reality is that as an alternative it's not very compelling and probably negative for most riders to use that over the Broadway service they already have. If we were to run that again today, it'd probably carry air even if the was packed to the gills, because you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[Wallyhorse]

On 11/1/2021 at 12:04 AM, Trainmaster5 said:

What is fascinating to me about some ideas is the complete disregard or ignorance about what the agency is doing to the Nassau line. Stations and trackage are being rearranged to eliminate the infrastructure down there but we have some posters ignoring that and advocating more service from the south . That’s a nonstarter. The only service I recall terminating from the south in the Nassau line was the  West End midday line. It only did that because there wasn’t any other place to turn trains back. IIRC the relay tracks north of Chambers are gone, perhaps removed now. The three terminals along Nassau were for the BMT Eastern Division trains coming from the north . Look at what’s being done to the LIRR Atlantic line to Downtown Brooklyn and the Lower Manhattan old time financial district. Nassau St is not a prime destination any more. All I ask is for some people to look at the big picture. The  is broadcasting their plans. My take. Carry on.

The idea here as I would do it would be to separate the  as much as possible with as little interference as possible on Broadway.  Moving the to Nassau and reopening the former northbound platforms at Canal and Bowery on the allows with trackwork and a new track on the "express" track of the northbound platform the  to use Canal as a terminal, something that could not have been done before the re-work 20+ years ago.  The idea here is the , most likely on the West End become the full-length Broadway local (except late nights when the would run as it does now) while the  would terminate at Chambers, giving the free run from Canal to Broad other than the two crossing tracks between the respective terminals in each direction (and the schedules would be set up where the terminal train would leave after the train heading to its terminal does, excluding yard runs by this to Broadway Junction as it would be based out of East New York and nights and weekends when this would run to Metropolitan Avenue and absorb the late night and weekend shuttles). 

[mrsman]

As part of the way of bringing the discussion full circle, we remember that one of the benefits of the Montague tunnel closing was that it allowed for a more reliable 4th Ave local, because that train did not go into Manhattan and was not subject to all the merge delays along the Broadway local line.   

Among the ways that we can theorize to maintain this reliability (while keeping Montague tunnel open) is by seaparating the locals from Queens (Astoria and/or Queens Blvd) and terminating them at Whitehall or City Hall, while bringing the 4th Ave locals onto the Nassau tracks and re-introducing the Banker's specials type service.

Another possibility is just to remove all of the delaying merges along the Broadway local as part of a larger deinterlining scheme.  Astoria trains (and only Astoria trains as QBL trains will no longer be part of the Broadway local) will run down the Broadway local, continuing through the Montague tunnel and the 4th Ave local in Brooklyn.  What happens next is largely dependent on how important yard access for Astoria trains are.   You could run an Astoria-Bay Ridge local train, that was run in some form by BMT or MTA for many years prior to 1987 and then utilize Coney Island through a mere with either Sea Beach or West End when the trains are out-of-service.  You could run an Astoria-Bay Ridge or Sea Beach train service, connecting the Broadway local to both services and running down Sea Beach when a train needs to access CI yard.  Finally, with the addition of a track switch south of 36th in Brooklyn, you could run Astoria-West End train service via Broadway and 4th Ave locals allowing the Astoria trains full access to CI (and Bay Ridge trains full access to the Concourse yard)

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 10/11/2021 at 12:10 PM, mrsman said:

 So far, it seems that the vanshnookenraggen plan appears to be the best method of addressing the situation in South Brooklyn.  Broadway locals are separated from Broadway express and are separated from 6th Ave expresses very cleanly.  The only downside appears to be that West End will lose their express service, but this can be addressed with the increased overall service, which lowers overall travel time.

 

 

No disagreement with this, especially since running a 4th Avenue local service into the Nassau St Line may not be a real improvement over the current  service.

On 11/1/2021 at 1:14 AM, bobtehpanda said:

Indeed.

Some people will argue til they're blue in the face that Nassau-South Brooklyn service is useful because it provides an alternative, but the reality is that as an alternative it's not very compelling and probably negative for most riders to use that over the Broadway service they already have. If we were to run that again today, it'd probably carry air even if the was packed to the gills, because you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Indeed that is a possibility. It’s also probably not worth doing if you have to build or rebuild infrastructure to make it possible to run such a service.

[Wallyhorse]

15 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

No disagreement with this, especially since running a 4th Avenue local service into the Nassau St Line may not be a real improvement over the current  service.

Indeed that is a possibility. It’s also probably not worth doing if you have to build or rebuild infrastructure to make it possible to run such a service.

In the case of Nassau to me, it would be worth it not just so you could have the  move to Nassau and terminate at Canal Street (mostly using what would be the southbound "express" track/current northbound track at Canal) while reopening the abandoned Northbound platforms at Canal Street and Bowery (where the would northbound operate on the "local" track while at Canal during peak hours some trains would terminate on the "northbound express" track).  This also would be done with provisions to allow for a future connection to the Nassau line from the SAS as part of a much bigger future project that would allow the Nassau line to connect to and from the SAS in both directions and likewise allow trains off the Willy B to use the SAS both going up 2nd Avenue and going via Water street downtown (after Chatam Square). 

[Metro CSW]

Is this still a thing? I feel like no updates has surfaced about a "Split (R)" for years now.....

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 11/10/2021 at 8:21 PM, Metro CSW said:

Is this still a thing? I feel like no updates has surfaced about a "Split (R)" for years now.....

Unfortunately, I don't think it is. I don't think it's been a thing for at least the past two years now (or at least since Andy Byford was forced out of Transit by Prince Andy). Since then, Max Rose was unseated from Congress by Nicole Maliotakis last November (though Rose is considering running for his old seat next year) and it appears that Justin Brannan is close to being unseated from the City Council by Brian Fox. Maliotakis seems far more focused on the Staten Island side of her district and I have yet to hear Fox discuss anything related to the actual operation of the subway, let alone poor service on the . At least State Sen. Andrew Gounardes put out a report about the poor state of subway and bus transit in South Brooklyn, but it dates back to December 2019 ( https://www.nysenate.gov/sites/default/files/article/attachment/gounardes_transit_report_final.pdf ). Maybe Gounardes will continue to take up the mantle of fixing subway service in his district without Rose and Brannan in office. Who knows?

On 11/10/2021 at 3:08 PM, Wallyhorse said:

In the case of Nassau to me, it would be worth it not just so you could have the  move to Nassau and terminate at Canal Street (mostly using what would be the southbound "express" track/current northbound track at Canal) while reopening the abandoned Northbound platforms at Canal Street and Bowery (where the would northbound operate on the "local" track while at Canal during peak hours some trains would terminate on the "northbound express" track).  This also would be done with provisions to allow for a future connection to the Nassau line from the SAS as part of a much bigger future project that would allow the Nassau line to connect to and from the SAS in both directions and likewise allow trains off the Willy B to use the SAS both going up 2nd Avenue and going via Water street downtown (after Chatam Square). 

But does the  really have to move to Nassau when there's another, potentially much better, option? Provisions connecting the Nassau St Line to lower 2nd Ave can be made independent of a hypothetic  train rerouted to Nassau. It is not necessary to do them together and the MTA will almost certainly not care to do them together. The pros and cons of connecting Nassau to 2nd Ave are for a different discussion.

Edited November 12, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[R10 2952]

On 11/10/2021 at 5:21 PM, Metro CSW said:

Is this still a thing? I feel like no updates has surfaced about a "Split (R)" for years now.....

It's not a thing at all anymore.  No updates from the pols, just Wally beating his horsemeat about a fantasy revived <R> train...

Edited November 12, 2021 by R10 2952

[biGC323232]

18 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

It's not a thing at all anymore.  No updates from the pols, just Wally beating his horsemeat about a fantasy revived <R> train...

....I wouldnt doubt all his crazy ideas of how the subway should revise some lines...Few years back he mention the M should go to harlem on weekends...To our surprise the M ended up in Harlem...

[Lawrence St]

19 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

It's not a thing at all anymore.  No updates from the pols, just Wally beating his horsemeat about a fantasy revived <R> train...

AYO