Select Bus Service Discussion Thread

[Express Bus Operator]

not at all.. just throwing in some insight what I see everyday since I operate on the 41

[B35 via Church]

9 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I believe an extended B9 would have greater demand than the B41.

Sure, and I believe the B9 would lose ridership (and service) if it were to be diverted from Kings Plaza....

8 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Yes, I have been proposing it since 1973. I also believe I presented it to the MTA back in 2004 and of course they rejected it just like the 40 other proposals I made the year  before I retired through their Employee Suggestion Program which required them to provide written responses. None of their responses were valid. 

As far as the frequency, for the B9, I would start with the current frequency. All the connections the B 9 makes are a tremendous asset, especially the Brighton Line. Currently the B41 Bergen Beach branch is virtually useless to B46 passengers. Look at how much more useful it would be to a high volume route like the B46. It would provide B46 riders to access to an entire new area of Brooklyn with no added route mileage. No one currently going south or north on the B46 would transfer to the B41 in the westbound direction. That would all change if it were the B9. 

I personally don't have a problem w/ the B41 running along Av. N.... I don't see what this particular point you're making has to do with much of anything..... It's like saying the Paerdegat branch of the B17 is virtually useless to B103 riders, or the old M15 City Hall branch was virtually useless to M103 riders.... Anyway, those residents down there have the B46 if they need service along Utica & the B41 if they need service along Flatbush (which most certainly includes a closer connection to the IRT at the Junction, compared to @ Eastern Pkwy.).....

The point you're making w/ the B9 is being made as if no connection currently exists between it & the B46....

Having B9's run along Av. N most certainly won't quell any issue concerning too many B41's running to Kings Plaza, that's for sure....

[JeremiahC99]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Sure, and I believe the B9 would lose ridership (and service) if it were to be diverted from Kings Plaza....

I personally don't have a problem w/ the B41 running along Av. N.... I don't see what this particular point you're making has to do with much of anything..... It's like saying the Paerdegat branch of the B17 is virtually useless to B103 riders, or the old M15 City Hall branch was virtually useless to M103 riders.... Anyway, those residents down there have the B46 if they need service along Utica & the B41 if they need service along Flatbush (which most certainly includes a closer connection to the IRT at the Junction, compared to @ Eastern Pkwy.).....

The point you're making w/ the B9 is being made as if no connection currently exists between it & the B46....

Having B9's run along Av. N most certainly won't quell any issue concerning too many B41's running to Kings Plaza, that's for sure....

Why would the B9 lose service if were to run on Avenue N? All it would do is provide better access to the BMT Brighton Line. It would also provide a better connection to the B46 and B47, and provide more frequent service on weekends. B41 local service during middays, evenings, and weekends (as well as overnights is the B9 is 24/7) would be eliminated, removing the complaint of poor service on the B41. LTD service would remain on the line at ALL TIMES EXCEPT LATE NIGHTS.

 

The current connection between the B9 and B46 is very inconvient. This proposal fixes tray problem, increasing ridership.

 

To add to this proposal, the B11 would be extended along Flatbush Avenue and Avenue K to Ralph Avenue, turning around via East 59th Street, Avenue L, and Ralph Avenue. Service would terminate at Ralph Avenue and Avenue L. This would improve access to the Georgetown Shopping Center.

 

All of this can be implemented before the B41 SBS goes online.

[Future ENY OP]

53 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Why would the B9 lose service if were to run on Avenue N? All it would do is provide better access to the BMT Brighton Line. It would also provide a better connection to the B46 and B47, and provide more frequent service on weekends. B41 local service during middays, evenings, and weekends (as well as overnights is the B9 is 24/7) would be eliminated, removing the complaint of poor service on the B41. LTD service would remain on the line at ALL TIMES EXCEPT LATE NIGHTS.

 

The current connection between the B9 and B46 is very inconvient. This proposal fixes tray problem, increasing ridership.

 

To add to this proposal, the B11 would be extended along Flatbush Avenue and Avenue K to Ralph Avenue, turning around via East 59th Street, Avenue L, and Ralph Avenue. Service would terminate at Ralph Avenue and Avenue L. This would improve access to the Georgetown Shopping Center.

 

All of this can be implemented before the B41 SBS goes online.

I don't think residents in that part of Mill basin want buses running down that block. Also, Georgetown shopping center is really NOT a big attraction to have bus service terminate there.  

However, I'm all in for bus service on Avenue K. If I were a bettor, I would extend your B11 possibly to Bergen Beach- Avenue U to which you have a better turn around on Strickland Avenue to return via Ralph, stopping at Georgetown Shopping Center  

I get the notion that bus service needs to be expanded into Mill Basin-Bergen Beach but in what expense? As I'm reading this replacing the B41 is not easy as everyone predicts it to be. In all honesty what needs to be done is to expand the service levels to Bergen Beach-Mill Basin on the B41. 

No need for the B9 to cover Bergen Beach territory. Keep the B9 at Kings Plaza or better yet Flatbush Avenue and Avenue L. 

PS: When is the B41SBS scheduled to start service? (I could only guess no time soon) 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Future ENY OP
Addition

[B35 via Church]

58 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Why would the B9 lose service if were to run on Avenue N? All it would do is provide better access to the BMT Brighton Line. It would also provide a better connection to the B46 and B47, and provide more frequent service on weekends. B41 local service during middays, evenings, and weekends (as well as overnights is the B9 is 24/7) would be eliminated, removing the complaint of poor service on the B41. LTD service would remain on the line at ALL TIMES EXCEPT LATE NIGHTS.

 

The current connection between the B9 and B46 is very inconvient. This proposal fixes tray problem, increasing ridership.....

I don't believe that there's a greater demand for Bergen Beach from off the B9 than there is for Kings Plaza..... I'd be worried that the MTA will end up noticing that too, and will be quick to pull the trigger when it comes to the service levels of the route.... There seems to be a consensual underestimation of the demand for Kings Plaza from off that route.....

The current connection at Flatbush/Utica b/w the two routes (B9/B46) being very inconvenient is flat-out ridiculous.... All you have to do is walk around the Walgreens; how inconvenient is that? The difference between [Av. N/Utica] & [Flatbush/Utica] is not that drastic; it doesn't even "add 5 minutes to their commute"

 

5 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

I don't think residents in that part of Mill basin want buses running down that block. Also, Georgetown shopping center is really NOT a big attraction to have bus service terminate there.  

However, I'm all in for bus service on Avenue K. If I were a bettor, I would extend your B11 possibly to Bergen Beach- Avenue U to which you have a better turn around on Strickland Avenue to return via Ralph, stopping at Georgetown Shopping Center  

I get the notion that bus service needs to be expanded into Mill Basin-Bergen Beach but in what expense? As I'm reading this replacing the B41 is not easy as everyone predicts it to be. In all honesty what needs to be done is to expand the service levels to Bergen Beach-Mill Basin on the B41. 

No need for the B9 to cover Bergen Beach territory. Keep the B9 at Kings Plaza or better yet Flatbush Avenue and Avenue L. 

PS: When is the B41SBS scheduled to start service? (I could only guess no time soon) 

This is exactly how I'm viewing this particular discussion.....

[Future ENY OP]

31 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

I don't believe that there's a greater demand for Bergen Beach from off the B9 than there is for Kings Plaza..... I'd be worried that the MTA will end up noticing that too, and will be quick to pull the trigger when it comes to the service levels of the route.... There seems to be a consensual underestimation of the demand for Kings Plaza from off that route.....

The current connection at Flatbush/Utica b/w the two routes (B9/B46) being very inconvenient is flat-out ridiculous.... All you have to do is walk around the Walgreens; how inconvenient is that? The difference between [Av. N/Utica] & [Flatbush/Utica] is not that drastic; it doesn't even "add 5 minutes to their commute"

 

This is exactly how I'm viewing this particular discussion.....

All this pre-mature stuff is driving me crazy. I don't even think the 41 is due for SBS any time soon 😐

[BrooklynBus]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Sure, and I believe the B9 would lose ridership (and service) if it were to be diverted from Kings Plaza....

I personally don't have a problem w/ the B41 running along Av. N.... I don't see what this particular point you're making has to do with much of anything..... It's like saying the Paerdegat branch of the B17 is virtually useless to B103 riders, or the old M15 City Hall branch was virtually useless to M103 riders.... Anyway, those residents down there have the B46 if they need service along Utica & the B41 if they need service along Flatbush (which most certainly includes a closer connection to the IRT at the Junction, compared to @ Eastern Pkwy.).....

The point you're making w/ the B9 is being made as if no connection currently exists between it & the B46....

Having B9's run along Av. N most certainly won't quell any issue concerning too many B41's running to Kings Plaza, that's for sure....

I don't agree with you about the B9 losing ridership if it were diverted from Kings Plaza. While the B41 and B46 are jammed on weekends with Kings Plaza shoppers and the B47 as well but to a lesser extent, I see the B2 and B9 arriving and leaving nearly empty from Kings Plaza.

Regarding the B9 connecting with the B46, you are correct. My mind was still back when I lived in East Flatbush and the B9 has not yet been extended to Kings Plaza which was why I never rode that bus until I was an adult living where I live today. 

But the connection is not optimal requiring you to go out of your way to make that connection and at least another 10 minutes added to your trip because you cannot make a direct connection at Avenue M. Extending the B9 on Avenue N helps to straighten out the grid system without causing unnecessary inconvenience. Also remember that the B9 was never extended in the first place to serve Kings Plaza because it was not needed for that purpose. People from Bensonhurst were never going to shop in Kings Plaza. What happened was that there was a federal two year grant to extend the B9 to Riis Park on summer weekends from Avenue L around 1980 and the decision t extend it was purely political. The Feds wanted to extend the B46 and the MTA thought it would be more politically acceptable if a route were also added extended from a white area as well as from a black area. The B9 wasn't nearly as well used as the B46 when the routes ran to Riis Park.

When the grant ended, the MTA refused to keep either service although the B46 was always crowded. Community opposition would not let them terminate the route a Avenue L again since riders were already using it also to go to Kings Plaza so it was cut back to Kings Plaza at all times. 

[Around the Horn]

All I'm going to say is that if the B9 does go to Bergen Beach (which I find ridiculous), they better not cut service or Bay Ridge, Sunset Park and Boro Park are gonna come after them (and rightfully so). That route is crowded enough already and when theres any kind of  G.O. it becomes intolerable...

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

All I'm going to say is that if the B9 does go to Bergen Beach (which I find ridiculous), they better not cut service or Bay Ridge, Sunset Park and Boro Park are gonna come after them (and rightfully so). That route is crowded enough already and when theres any kind of  G.O. it becomes intolerable...

Easily agree.... Which is why I wouldn't want to run that risk....

1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

I don't agree with you about the B9 losing ridership if it were diverted from Kings Plaza. While the B41 and B46 are jammed on weekends with Kings Plaza shoppers and the B47 as well but to a lesser extent, I see the B2 and B9 arriving and leaving nearly empty from Kings Plaza.

Regarding the B9 connecting with the B46, you are correct. My mind was still back when I lived in East Flatbush and the B9 has not yet been extended to Kings Plaza which was why I never rode that bus until I was an adult living where I live today. 

But the connection is not optimal requiring you to go out of your way to make that connection and at least another 10 minutes added to your trip because you cannot make a direct connection at Avenue M. Extending the B9 on Avenue N helps to straighten out the grid system without causing unnecessary inconvenience. Also remember that the B9 was never extended in the first place to serve Kings Plaza because it was not needed for that purpose. People from Bensonhurst were never going to shop in Kings Plaza. What happened was that there was a federal two year grant to extend the B9 to Riis Park on summer weekends from Avenue L around 1980 and the decision t extend it was purely political. The Feds wanted to extend the B46 and the MTA thought it would be more politically acceptable if a route were also added extended from a white area as well as from a black area. The B9 wasn't nearly as well used as the B46 when the routes ran to Riis Park.

When the grant ended, the MTA refused to keep either service although the B46 was always crowded. Community opposition would not let them terminate the route a Avenue L again since riders were already using it also to go to Kings Plaza so it was cut back to Kings Plaza at all times. 

The option (of xferring to the B41) would of course still be available, but I think running the B9 to Bergen Beach would make it less attractive to most that reside west of Flatbush, that might not want to be bothered w/ xferring to the B41....  Any newfound ridership coming from areas east of Flatbush av, I can't remotely see offsetting any losses in usage I believe would occur from the route no longer going to Kings Plaza.....

The buses you saw leaving empty (which I have also seen/experienced fairly empty B9's leaving KP), I'm inclined to believe is very likely a result of bunching.... I've seen B9's on layover 3 (sometimes even 4) deep, which is ridiculous, but that's another topic..... On the contrary, I have also seen & been on B9's that have left Kings Plaza crushloaded also; weekends & weekdays..... Say if one were to average out the crushloaded buses to the more emptier buses, I'd say most trips leaving KP alone would do so w/ about least 10-15 pax.... I find that there are relatively few of those riders (or anyone else along Flatbush that embarks on it before it turns off at Av. L) that are using it interchangeably (along Flatbush) w/ the B41, so the majority of these people on NB/WB B9's are heading west of Flatbush, that is for certain.....

Sure it'd benefit the grid, but would it benefit more, or an approximately equal amt. of riders that are currently taking the B9? I just don't see it..... The B9 to Kings Plaza may have been unintended, but there are certainly no shortage of riders utilizing it south of Av. L, present date, that's for sure (again, even if we factor out the riders that use it strictly along Flatbush av).....

...and where in Bensonhurst did the B9 run to back then? (honest question)

The B2 leaving empty is, of course, a whole 'nother story..... Too high a percentage of its current patrons aren't even thinking about (using it to get to) the mall.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I don't agree with you about the B9 losing ridership if it were diverted from Kings Plaza. While the B41 and B46 are jammed on weekends with Kings Plaza shoppers and the B47 as well but to a lesser extent, I see the B2 and B9 arriving and leaving nearly empty from Kings Plaza.

Regarding the B9 connecting with the B46, you are correct. My mind was still back when I lived in East Flatbush and the B9 has not yet been extended to Kings Plaza which was why I never rode that bus until I was an adult living where I live today. 

But the connection is not optimal requiring you to go out of your way to make that connection and at least another 10 minutes added to your trip because you cannot make a direct connection at Avenue M. Extending the B9 on Avenue N helps to straighten out the grid system without causing unnecessary inconvenience. Also remember that the B9 was never extended in the first place to serve Kings Plaza because it was not needed for that purpose. People from Bensonhurst were never going to shop in Kings Plaza. What happened was that there was a federal two year grant to extend the B9 to Riis Park on summer weekends from Avenue L around 1980 and the decision t extend it was purely political. The Feds wanted to extend the B46 and the MTA thought it would be more politically acceptable if a route were also added extended from a white area as well as from a black area. The B9 wasn't nearly as well used as the B46 when the routes ran to Riis Park.

When the grant ended, the MTA refused to keep either service although the B46 was always crowded. Community opposition would not let them terminate the route a Avenue L again since riders were already using it also to go to Kings Plaza so it was cut back to Kings Plaza at all times. 

If we're going to talk about demographics, then let's be honest and say that the B9 (and the B2 for that matter) serve mainly white areas, and whites aren't shopping at Kings Plaza like they used to and haven't for years, so I'm not sure why you're acting like you're so shocked by the B2 and B9. Hell even when I lived in Midwood, I would take the B2 and B9 to Kings Plaza on the rare occasion, and even then things were changing.  Those in white areas (myself included) started shopping at the Staten Island Mall or in New Jersey.  All of my friends that were white and lived in areas like Gerritsen Beach, Sheepshead Bay and so on had long forgot about Kings Plaza as early as the early 2000s.  I haven't stepped foot near Kings Plaza in well over 20 years.   A large issue for many (including myself) was the place looked run down, the stores didn't really cater to all demographics and the shooting or whatever that took place there made some think that the place was no longer safe.  

Edited February 26, 2018 by Via Garibaldi 8

[JeremiahC99]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I don't believe that there's a greater demand for Bergen Beach from off the B9 than there is for Kings Plaza..... I'd be worried that the MTA will end up noticing that too, and will be quick to pull the trigger when it comes to the service levels of the route.... There seems to be a consensual underestimation of the demand for Kings Plaza from off that route.....

The current connection at Flatbush/Utica b/w the two routes (B9/B46) being very inconvenient is flat-out ridiculous.... All you have to do is walk around the Walgreens; how inconvenient is that? The difference between [Av. N/Utica] & [Flatbush/Utica] is not that drastic; it doesn't even "add 5 minutes to their commute"

The B9 to B46 connection requires you to first go south out of your way along Flatbush Avenue to Avenue S or Kings Plaza to come back north via the B46. Its to  indirect and inconvenient. The reroute along Avenue N allows to go straight along Avenue N to Utica Avenue and transfer there to the B46. No need to backtrack to Kings Plaza. The connection is there, just not at the right location. I’d rather have the B9 along Avenue N than the current system. Do you even realize that bus routes in the borough haven’t been updated in 60 years (although the changes in Southwest Brooklyn were implemented in 1978 and 2010). @BrooklynBus would agree to this.

 

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I don't agree with you about the B9 losing ridership if it were diverted from Kings Plaza. While the B41 and B46 are jammed on weekends with Kings Plaza shoppers and the B47 as well but to a lesser extent, I see the B2 and B9 arriving and leaving nearly empty from Kings Plaza.

Regarding the B9 connecting with the B46, you are correct. My mind was still back when I lived in East Flatbush and the B9 has not yet been extended to Kings Plaza which was why I never rode that bus until I was an adult living where I live today. 

But the connection is not optimal requiring you to go out of your way to make that connection and at least another 10 minutes added to your trip because you cannot make a direct connection at Avenue M. Extending the B9 on Avenue N helps to straighten out the grid system without causing unnecessary inconvenience. Also remember that the B9 was never extended in the first place to serve Kings Plaza because it was not needed for that purpose. People from Bensonhurst were never going to shop in Kings Plaza. What happened was that there was a federal two year grant to extend the B9 to Riis Park on summer weekends from Avenue L around 1980 and the decision t extend it was purely political. The Feds wanted to extend the B46 and the MTA thought it would be more politically acceptable if a route were also added extended from a white area as well as from a black area. The B9 wasn't nearly as well used as the B46 when the routes ran to Riis Park.

When the grant ended, the MTA refused to keep either service although the B46 was always crowded. Community opposition would not let them terminate the route a Avenue L again since riders were already using it also to go to Kings Plaza so it was cut back to Kings Plaza at all times. 

You are right about the current B9/B46 connection being not-optimal. In addition, the intersection at Avenue S/Flatbush/Utica Avenue, where the routes intersect, is very dangerous as well.

 

Example: Let’s say that I want to go from Midwood to East Flatbush at Utica Avenue and Winthrop Street without taking the subway. To do this, I would have to take the B9 to Avenue S and Flatbush Avenue, cross a dangerous intersection, and catch the B46 Local to Utica Avenue and Winthrop Street. That ride is very slow, so if I wanted to get there faster, I would go further out of my way to Kings Plaza to get the B46 SBS there. Either way, that is too indirect for me to consider.

If the B9 were to be on Avenue N, then I could take the B9 straight to Avenue N and Utica Avenue and get either the local or SBS there, saving 10 minutes that could be better used elsewhere.

 

That story of the B9 extension to Riis Park make time think that the politicians are running the MTA. If you were the head of the MTA Operations Planning, and wanted some new routes to Jacob Riis Park, what would propose?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

41 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Easily agree.... Which is why I wouldn't want to run that risk....

The option (of xferring to the B41) would of course still be available, but I think running the B9 to Bergen Beach would make it less attractive to most that reside west of Flatbush, that might not want to be bothered w/ xferring to the B41....  Any newfound ridership coming from areas east of Flatbush av, I can't remotely see offsetting any losses in usage I believe would occur from the route no longer going to Kings Plaza.....

The buses you saw leaving empty (which I have also seen/experienced fairly empty B9's leaving KP), I'm inclined to believe is very likely a result of bunching.... I've seen B9's on layover 3 (sometimes even 4) deep, which is ridiculous, but that's another topic..... On the contrary, I have also seen & been on B9's that have left Kings Plaza crushloaded also; weekends & weekdays..... Say if one were to average out the crushloaded buses to the more emptier buses, I'd say most trips leaving KP alone would do so w/ about least 10-15 pax.... I find that there are relatively few of those riders (or anyone else along Flatbush that embarks on it before it turns off at Av. L) that are using it interchangeably (along Flatbush) w/ the B41, so the majority of these people on NB/WB B9's are heading west of Flatbush, that is for certain.....

Sure it'd benefit the grid, but would it benefit more, or an approximately equal amt. of riders that are currently taking the B9? I just don't see it..... The B9 to Kings Plaza may have been unintended, but there are certainly no shortage of riders utilizing it south of Av. L, present date, that's for sure (again, even if we factor out the riders that use it strictly along Flatbush av).....

...and where in Bensonhurst did the B9 run to back then? (honest question)

The B2 leaving empty is, of course, a whole 'nother story..... Too high a percentage of its current patrons aren't even thinking about (using it to get to) the mall.....

Yes, the B9 bunches heavily. When I lived in Midwood, we would often get two B9's at Avenue M or Avenue L.  

[BrooklynBus]

3 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

All I'm going to say is that if the B9 does go to Bergen Beach (which I find ridiculous), they better not cut service or Bay Ridge, Sunset Park and Boro Park are gonna come after them (and rightfully so). That route is crowded enough already and when theres any kind of  G.O. it becomes intolerable...

There is no reason why they should cut service.

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

...and where in Bensonhurst did the B9 run to back then? (honest question)

You don't consider 60 Street Bensonhurst?  That part of the route has not changed since the mid-thirties. I believe it used to terminate at Bay Parkway before then from Bay Ridge with the first B21 operating along Bay Parkway and turning east onto 60 Street to E 16 St. 

 

1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

The B9 to B46 connection requires you to first go south out of your way along Flatbush Avenue to Avenue S or Kings Plaza to come back north via the B46. Its to  indirect and inconvenient. The reroute along Avenue N allows to go straight along Avenue N to Utica Avenue and transfer there to the B46. No need to backtrack to Kings Plaza. The connection is there, just not at the right location. I’d rather have the B9 along Avenue N than the current system. Do you even realize that bus routes in the borough haven’t been updated in 60 years (although the changes in Southwest Brooklyn were implemented in 1978 and 2010). @BrooklynBus would agree to this.

You are right about the current B9/B46 connection being not-optimal. In addition, the intersection at Avenue S/Flatbush/Utica Avenue, where the routes intersect, is very dangerous as well.

Example: Let’s say that I want to go from Midwood to East Flatbush at Utica Avenue and Winthrop Street without taking the subway. To do this, I would have to take the B9 to Avenue S and Flatbush Avenue, cross a dangerous intersection, and catch the B46 Local to Utica Avenue and Winthrop Street. That ride is very slow, so if I wanted to get there faster, I would go further out of my way to Kings Plaza to get the B46 SBS there. Either way, that is too indirect for me to consider.

If the B9 were to be on Avenue N, then I could take the B9 straight to Avenue N and Utica Avenue and get either the local or SBS there, saving 10 minutes that could be better used elsewhere.

That story of the B9 extension to Riis Park make time think that the politicians are running the MTA. If you were the head of the MTA Operations Planning, and wanted some new routes to Jacob Riis Park, what would propose?

I lived one block from Utica and Winthrop for 27 years, so I know exactly what you are talking about. 

The B46 going to Riis Park on summer weekends is perfectly justified. If someone is already on the subway toward Coney Island, there is no reason to get off and switch to the B2 or B9 to get to Riis Park, so I would not extend those routes there for that purpose. 

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

If we're going to talk about demographics, then let's be honest and say that the B9 (and the B2 for that matter) serve mainly white areas, and whites aren't shopping at Kings Plaza like they used to and haven't for years, so I'm not sure why you're acting like you're so shocked by the B2 and B9. Hell even when I lived in Midwood, I would take the B2 and B9 to Kings Plaza on the rare occasion, and even then things were changing.  Those in white areas (myself included) started shopping at the Staten Island Mall or in New Jersey.  All of my friends that were white and lived in areas like Gerritsen Beach, Sheepshead Bay and so on had long forgot about Kings Plaza as early as the early 2000s.  I haven't stepped foot near Kings Plaza in well over 20 years.   A large issue for many (including myself) was the place looked run down, the stores didn't really cater to all demographics and the shooting or whatever that took place there made some think that the place was no longer safe.  

I'm not disagreeing with any of this so I don't know why you quoted me. 

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yes, the B9 bunches heavily. When I lived in Midwood, we would often get two B9's at Avenue M or Avenue L.  

What route doesn't bunch heavily? 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

11 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

I'm not disagreeing with any of this so I don't know why you quoted me. 

What route doesn't bunch heavily? 

Because you stated that some B2s and B9s run empty from Kings Plaza as if you don't know why.  Unless there's some miracle, I don't see that changing much soon. lol  I'd go one further with the B9 though.  The main demographic along Avenue L are the Orthodox Jews and they simply don't use the bus like that over there. That's the monied part of Midwood.  Anything along Avenue K to Avenue L and in that vicinity from around Bedford Avenue going east... Those people are driving. The houses are well easily over 900,000 to a million and the incomes can be over $130,000 in some cases.  On occasion I used the B9 and that was my observation.  Parts of Midwood are just as exclusive as your neighborhood, just without the private beaches. lol

Edited February 26, 2018 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

The B9 to B46 connection requires you to first go south out of your way along Flatbush Avenue to Avenue S or Kings Plaza to come back north via the B46. Its to  indirect and inconvenient. The reroute along Avenue N allows to go straight along Avenue N to Utica Avenue and transfer there to the B46. No need to backtrack to Kings Plaza. The connection is there, just not at the right location. I’d rather have the B9 along Avenue N than the current system. Do you even realize that bus routes in the borough haven’t been updated in 60 years (although the changes in Southwest Brooklyn were implemented in 1978 and 2010). @BrooklynBus would agree to this.

...and if you're on the B46 seeking the B9, again, you ride down to Flatbush/Utica, walk around the corner, around the Walgreens & catch the thing.... No crossing of any streets or no riding to Kings Plaza itself.... This particular part of the discussion is moot anyway, because really, [what B46 rider is really trying to get to the B9] & [what B9 rider is trying to get to the B46] to the point where a connection has to made feasible in both directions? Where is this same inconveniency argument for xferring b/w the B46 & the B2 - another route B46 riders aren't clamoring to get to? Demographics plays a part in all this.

Yes, the bus network as a whole is antiquated.... I've been saying that on this forum for years, so you're not exactly apprising me of anything I don't already know with that..... It's an irrelevant point brought up in this particular discussion, for no other reason than to try to justify the B9 running down Av. N... There is no obvious sign of people shunning the B9 at Kings Plaza, so to want to make like the B9 just absolutely has to run to Bergen Beach via Av. N is fallacious..... That is just not a good supporting argument...

1 minute ago, BrooklynBus said:

You don't consider 60 Street Bensonhurst?

Nope.... Not at all.... It has more of a Borough Park & Dyker Heights feel than a Bensonhurst feel.... I don't start thinking Bensonhurst until I hit the 70's (streets).....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

...and if you're on the B46 seeking the B9, again, you ride down to Flatbush/Utica, walk around the corner, around the Walgreens & catch the thing.... No crossing of any streets or no riding to Kings Plaza itself.... This particular part of the discussion is moot anyway, because really, [what B46 rider is really trying to get to the B9] & [what B9 rider is trying to get to the B46] to the point where a connection has to made feasible in both directions? Where is this same inconveniency argument for xferring b/w the B46 & the B2 - another route B46 riders aren't clamoring to get to? Demographics plays a part in all this.

Yes, the bus network as a whole is antiquated.... I've been saying that on this forum for years, so you're not exactly apprising me of anything I don't already know with that..... It's an irrelevant point brought up in this particular discussion, for no other reason than to try to justify the B9 running down Av. N... There is no obvious sign of people shunning the B9 at Kings Plaza, so to want to make like the B9 just absolutely has to run to Bergen Beach via Av. N is fallacious..... That is just not a good supporting argument...

Nope.... Not at all.... It has more of a Borough Park & Dyker Heights feel than a Bensonhurst feel.... I don't start thinking Bensonhurst until I hit the 70's (streets).....

There is really nothing to save the B9 over there.  As I said before it comes down to the demographics.  If and when Bergen Beach and Mill Basin flips (both have held on because they're expensive) then maybe an extension would make sense. As it stands now, those in Bergen Beach overall could care less about a bus going there.  Meanwhile if you look at the changes in Old Mill Basin in terms of demographics and bus usage and it's like night and day.

[BrooklynBus]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Because you stated that some B2s and B9s run empty from Kings Plaza as if you don't know why.  Unless there's some miracle, I don't see that changing much soon. lol  I'd go one further with the B9 though.  The main demographic along Avenue L are the Orthodox Jews and they simply don't use the bus like that over there. That's the monied part of Midwood.  Anything along Avenue K to Avenue L and in that vicinity from around Bedford Avenue going east... Those people are driving. The houses are well easily over 900,000 to a million and the incomes can be over $130,000 in some cases.  On occasion I used the B9 and that was my observation.  Parts of Midwood are just as exclusive as your neighborhood, just without the private beaches. lol

I didn't say that as if I didn't know the reason. And if the bus is a small lightly used on Avenue L as you claim, then more short services should terminate at East 16 St if any still terminate there now and they should beef up service on 60 Street. They don't need to provide equal service levels on all parts of a route if the demand is heavier at one end. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

I didn't say that as if I didn't know the reason. And if the bus is a small lightly used on Avenue L as you claim, then more short services should terminate at East 16 St if any still terminate there now and they should beef up service on 60 Street. They don't need to provide equal service levels on all parts of a route if the demand is heavier at one end. 

Yes, it's lighter on the eastern end, but I wouldn't cut off service.  It's not like it takes that long from Kings Plaza to reach Avenue L and Ocean. 

[BrooklynBus]

27 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yes, it's lighter on the eastern end, but I wouldn't cut off service.  It's not like it takes that long from Kings Plaza to reach Avenue L and Ocean. 

I was also talking about the Avenue L portion per your comments and I never said anything about "cutting off" service. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

I was also talking about the Avenue L portion per your comments and I never said anything about "cutting off" service. 

lol... Your comments below:

 

Quote

 And if the bus is a small lightly used on Avenue L as you claim, then more short services should terminate at East 16 St if any still terminate there now and they should beef up service on 60 Street. They don't need to provide equal service levels on all parts of a route if the demand is heavier at one end. 

Short-turns are service cuts in my mind...

[JeremiahC99]

5 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I lived one block from Utica and Winthrop for 27 years, so I know exactly what you are talking about. 

The B46 going to Riis Park on summer weekends is perfectly justified. If someone is already on the subway toward Coney Island, there is no reason to get off and switch to the B2 or B9 to get to Riis Park, so I would not extend those routes there for that purpose. 

How about a new bus route from Southern Brooklyn neighborhoods to the Rockaway Peninsula? I remember one of your proposals involved splitting the B4 into the B4 from Bay Ridge to the Sheepshead Bay Station, and a B5 from Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue (around that area) to Kings Plaza vía Avenue Z, the eastern end of the B4, and Knapp Street to Kings Plaza, also adding much needed service to Knapp Street.

 

I propose to build on top of this proposal. A while back, I found a sheepshead bites article new route expansions for southern Brooklyn. One of them was a new Q51 route between Sheepshead Bay and the Rockaway Peninsula. This would’ve also replaced the B4 at its eastern end, terminating at Sheepshead station at all times except late nights.

 

My proposal would combine the best of both worlds. The B4 would be cutback to Sheepshead Bay station, while the proposed B6 would operate the eastern end front Coney Island to Kings Plaza. The Q51 proposal would be modified to become an overlay of the B5. It would operate as a Limited stop service, making the following stops:

 

Coney Island - Stillwell Avenue

Shell Road

Avenue Z/Shell Road

Ocean Pkwy

Coney Island Avenue

East 16th Street

Ocean Avenue/Avenue Z

Ocean Avenue/ Shore Pkwy or Emmons Avenue

Nostrand Avenue

Knapp Street

Avenue W

Avenue U

East 33rd Street

Kings Plaza

All Q35 stops to the Rockaways.

 

To complement this, the Q35 would be rebranded as the Q35 LTD and run to Far Rockaway. The Q51 LTD would also follow this route.

The B5 would run out of the Ulmer Park Depot and the Q51 LTD would operate out of JFK/Far Rockaway Depot.

Would this be a great idea?

[BrooklynBus]

17 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

How about a new bus route from Southern Brooklyn neighborhoods to the Rockaway Peninsula? I remember one of your proposals involved splitting the B4 into the B4 from Bay Ridge to the Sheepshead Bay Station, and a B5 from Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue (around that area) to Kings Plaza vía Avenue Z, the eastern end of the B4, and Knapp Street to Kings Plaza, also adding much needed service to Knapp Street.

 

I propose to build on top of this proposal. A while back, I found a sheepshead bites article new route expansions for southern Brooklyn. One of them was a new Q51 route between Sheepshead Bay and the Rockaway Peninsula. This would’ve also replaced the B4 at its eastern end, terminating at Sheepshead station at all times except late nights.

 

My proposal would combine the best of both worlds. The B4 would be cutback to Sheepshead Bay station, while the proposed B6 would operate the eastern end front Coney Island to Kings Plaza. The Q51 proposal would be modified to become an overlay of the B5. It would operate as a Limited stop service, making the following stops:

 

Coney Island - Stillwell Avenue

Shell Road

Avenue Z/Shell Road

Ocean Pkwy

Coney Island Avenue

East 16th Street

Ocean Avenue/Avenue Z

Ocean Avenue/ Shore Pkwy or Emmons Avenue

Nostrand Avenue

Knapp Street

Avenue W

Avenue U

East 33rd Street

Kings Plaza

All Q35 stops to the Rockaways.

 

To complement this, the Q35 would be rebranded as the Q35 LTD and run to Far Rockaway. The Q51 LTD would also follow this route.

The B5 would run out of the Ulmer Park Depot and the Q51 LTD would operate out of JFK/Far Rockaway Depot.

Would this be a great idea?

It's hard to follow everything without maps, but you must also consider increased operating costs which need to be kept to a minimum. Sounds like extending routes to Far Rockaway involves considerable extra costs. 

[BrooklynBus]

On 2/26/2018 at 5:52 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

lol... Your comments below:

 

Short-turns are service cuts in my mind...

Not if requency is increased on the base portion of the route. It should moly places the service where it is needed the most.

[Union Tpke]

Do any of you know what this means?

SOLICITATION TITLE: A-37106 ADA Upgrade And Station Renewal Project, At Astoria Blvd. Station, Astoria Line "B" Division (BMT), In the Borough of Queens

DESCRIPTION:

The general extent and scope of work under this Contract consist of Reconstruction of Mezzanine and employee facilities, installation of ADA Elevators, restoration of walkway and platform canopies, Pedestrian Safety Improvements including Installation of Select Bus Service Stop at the Astoria Boulevard Station on Astoria Line, "B" Division (BMT) in the Borough of Queens. 

[Around the Horn]

3 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

Do any of you know what this means?

SOLICITATION TITLE: A-37106 ADA Upgrade And Station Renewal Project, At Astoria Blvd. Station, Astoria Line "B" Division (BMT), In the Borough of Queens

DESCRIPTION:

The general extent and scope of work under this Contract consist of Reconstruction of Mezzanine and employee facilities, installation of ADA Elevators, restoration of walkway and platform canopies, Pedestrian Safety Improvements including Installation of Select Bus Service Stop at the Astoria Boulevard Station on Astoria Line, "B" Division (BMT) in the Borough of Queens. 

Sounds like the M60 stop will get replaced with the newer style stops seen on the M34 (level platforms, tactile warning strips and benches/fencing)