Select Bus Service Discussion Thread

[BrooklynBus]

4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

In other words, getting people to pay in advance isn't a good thing. You are a trip.

It has its advantages and disadvantages. But the biggest question is why are we investing millions in fare equipment that will be obsolete in about three years when their lifetime is at least ten years? 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

It has its advantages and disadvantages. But the biggest question is why are we investing millions in fare equipment that will be obsolete in about three years when their lifetime is at least ten years? 

If it will make the route better, then why not? What are the disadvantages? Aside from the waste produced by the machines, I can't think of any.

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

If it will make the route better, then why not? What are the disadvantages? Aside from the waste produced by the machines, I can't think of any.

Each machine cost $50,000. At least 2 machines per stop and about 18 stops. You have no problem with the MTA wasting $2 million for them by scrapping them after three years and spending $2 million to $3 million extra each year to operate SBS when we haven't seen any proof regarding how much quicker passenger travel times are and when most routes show declining patronage with SBS, and no proof of lower fare evasion with SBS. SBS routes are only slightly more reliable than other routes. Where is the cost benefit analysis that shows it to be worthwhile? Why is there no B46 progress report? It's because ridership is down. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

15 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Each machine cost $50,000. At least 2 machines per stop and about 18 stops. You have no problem with the MTA wasting $2 million for them by scrapping them after three years and spending $2 million to $3 million extra each year to operate SBS when we haven't seen any proof regarding how much quicker passenger travel times are and when most routes show declining patronage with SBS, and no proof of lower fare evasion with SBS. SBS routes are only slightly more reliable than other routes. Where is the cost benefit analysis that shows it to be worthwhile? Why is there no B46 progress report? It's because ridership is down. 

Don't be ridiculous. Commonsense says that having passengers pay in advance speeds up the boarding process.

[MidwoodMartin]

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

But let's take the portion between McDonald and E 16 which is very slow. The recommendations to have curbside bus lanes if enforced, should help a great deal.  BUT THEY CAN DO THIS WITHOUT SBS. They can reroute the bus to Avenue K and do the Glenwood Road rerouting also without doing SBS but they will attribute those increases in speed to SBS. 

 

Why do what SBS does, without SBS? Come on. Let's be honest. Was someone really going to do anything about the B82 bus route without it becoming a SBS route? I highly, highly, highly, highly doubt that. I highly doubt that anyone was going to install multiple bus lanes, ticketing stations, bring in articulated buses, and reroute the bus without it being done under the SBS banner. And especially not by 2018. In fact, I believe you do need SBS to do all of this.

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

They don't tell you what tine periods are being used. If you average the speeds over 24 hours, there is no way you would get under 5mph anywhere. If you check all the presentations where they show a little bit of data in each by different times of the say, you will see that it varies greatly by time period. There are other areas in dark green on those maps. Most of Ocean Avenue to Flatbush is in dark green except for the few blocks around Nostrand for all but three hours a day. 

I took the B82 in the mornings (7am), afternoons (2-5pm) and evenings (7-9pm). And each and every time it was the same exact horror story. Crowds and movement you could beat many times by walking. 

I did check a presentation and did find one graph (pg 9)  which used only 4:30-7pm and that had some more dark green areas, but still a huge number of red and dark orange areas. Feel free to send me one which shows great difference by time period. I wasn't able to find it. And if you'd take the B82 for a week, every day, I strongly believe that you'd find that data more than accurate. 

And does it really make sense to put a bus lane on one part of the street and then none on the other? Simply because one part on average has greater MPH than the other? On some parts I understand why the bus lanes don't encompass both streets or are not done at all due to parking concerns and lack of lanes. But those wide routes would see no parking reduction since the bus runs in the middle of the road. 

55 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

we haven't seen any proof regarding how much quicker passenger travel times are and when most routes show declining patronage with SBS, and no proof of lower fare evasion with SBS. SBS routes are only slightly more reliable than other routes.

I don't see the goal of SBS to simply increase patronage or to lower fair evasion. Patronage by the numbers on the B82 is going to increase simply because of the many developments in the area. Imagine people trying to get to the new Target or Century21 on the B82 we have now. SBS is coming just at the right time to meet those people. Fair evasion is unstoppable with the current B82. There are thousands of people who jump onto the current B82 from the back door without paying due to the insane crowds, even though they might have payment. That's going to reduce automatically with the SBS. I don't need proof from other routes for that.

And you're telling me that a bus with dedicated bus lanes over a bus that fights double-parked cars and trucks for hours every day will be only "slightly more reliable"? Even other routes, though they might improve only "slightly" (another word up for interpretation), have improved. 

The B82 is so awful that the SBS should have significant positive impact. Not every route has the overcrowding, the delays and the slow speeds the B82 has. It's a route which is uniquely broken and needs improvement. SBS is doing that improvement this summer. Without SBS the improvement might have come in a decade or two, maybe never. 

[Brillant93]

2 hours ago, MidwoodMartin said:

Why do what SBS does, without SBS? Come on. Let's be honest. Was someone really going to do anything about the B82 bus route without it becoming a SBS route? I highly, highly, highly, highly doubt that. I highly doubt that anyone was going to install multiple bus lanes, ticketing stations, bring in articulated buses, and reroute the bus without it being done under the SBS banner. And especially not by 2018. In fact, I believe you do need SBS to do all of this.

I took the B82 in the mornings (7am), afternoons (2-5pm) and evenings (7-9pm). And each and every time it was the same exact horror story. Crowds and movement you could beat many times by walking. 

I did check a presentation and did find one graph (pg 9)  which used only 4:30-7pm and that had some more dark green areas, but still a huge number of red and dark orange areas. Feel free to send me one which shows great difference by time period. I wasn't able to find it. And if you'd take the B82 for a week, every day, I strongly believe that you'd find that data more than accurate. 

And does it really make sense to put a bus lane on one part of the street and then none on the other? Simply because one part on average has greater MPH than the other? On some parts I understand why the bus lanes don't encompass both streets or are not done at all due to parking concerns and lack of lanes. But those wide routes would see no parking reduction since the bus runs in the middle of the road. 

I don't see the goal of SBS to simply increase patronage or to lower fair evasion. Patronage by the numbers on the B82 is going to increase simply because of the many developments in the area. Imagine people trying to get to the new Target or Century21 on the B82 we have now. SBS is coming just at the right time to meet those people. Fair evasion is unstoppable with the current B82. There are thousands of people who jump onto the current B82 from the back door without paying due to the insane crowds, even though they might have payment. That's going to reduce automatically with the SBS. I don't need proof from other routes for that.

And you're telling me that a bus with dedicated bus lanes over a bus that fights double-parked cars and trucks for hours every day will be only "slightly more reliable"? Even other routes, though they might improve only "slightly" (another word up for interpretation), have improved. 

The B82 is so awful that the SBS should have significant positive impact. Not every route has the overcrowding, the delays and the slow speeds the B82 has. It's a route which is uniquely broken and needs improvement. SBS is doing that improvement this summer. Without SBS the improvement might have come in a decade or two, maybe never. 

Fellow B82 rider here. Let me tell you everything you’re saying about the route and how sbs is actually making it have improvements is spot on. 

[checkmatechamp13]

7 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

Thank you for that comment. I get tired of hearing some people on here thinking that splitting routes are the only solution to a route that is slow. It’s not. Bus lanes help if enforced and so does off board payment. But yet some how everybody likes the old way. 

2

Splitting routes has nothing to do with speed. It has to do with reliability. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Splitting routes has nothing to do with speed. It has to do with reliability. 

Oh please with your constant nitpicking. The always puts in reliability and speed when talking about routes, so clearly in their minds the two go together despite what you may think.

[BrooklynBus]

2 hours ago, MidwoodMartin said:

My comments are in italics.

Why do what SBS does, without SBS? Come on. Let's be honest. Was someone really going to do anything about the B82 bus route without it becoming a SBS route? I highly, highly, highly, highly doubt that. I highly doubt that anyone was going to install multiple bus lanes, ticketing stations, bring in articulated buses, and reroute the bus without it being done under the SBS banner. And especially not by 2018. In fact, I believe you do need SBS to do all of this.

That's the whole point. They can do these other things without SBS, but they won't so they can give credit for the improvements to SBS. 

I took the B82 in the mornings (7am), afternoons (2-5pm) and evenings (7-9pm). And each and every time it was the same exact horror story. Crowds and movement you could beat many times by walking. 

Not denying there are problems. 

I did check a presentation and did find one graph (pg 9)  which used only 4:30-7pm and that had some more dark green areas, but still a huge number of red and dark orange areas. Feel free to send me one which shows great difference by time period. I wasn't able to find it. And if you'd take the B82 for a week, every day, I strongly believe that you'd find that data more than accurate. 

The red parts are not where the street is wide. Most of that is green or dark green. You don't need the lanes there. You can't just ignore other traffic as the MTA has done. 

And does it really make sense to put a bus lane on one part of the street and then none on the other? Simply because one part on average has greater MPH than the other? It certainly does. If you don't need it, there is no reason to hurt other traffic unless your goal is to punish anyone who drives. On some parts I understand why the bus lanes don't encompass both streets or are not done at all due to parking concerns and lack of lanes. But those wide routes would see no parking reduction since the bus runs in the middle of the road. 

I don't see the goal of SBS to simply increase patronage or to lower fair evasion. Those certainly are the goals. Why spend $3 million a year extra to operate a route for lower patronage? Patronage by the numbers on the B82 is going to increase simply because of the many developments in the area. Imagine people trying to get to the new Target or Century21 on the B82 we have now. Just put in attics then. And the B82 doesn't even go to those places without transferring. SBS is coming just at the right time to meet those people. Fair evasion is unstoppable with the current B82. There are thousands of people who jump onto the current B82 from the back door without paying due to the insane crowds, even though they might have payment. Put in article then to increase capacity so they will pay the fair. That would be much cheaper than SBS. That's going to reduce automatically with the SBS. I don't need proof from other routes for that.

And you're telling me that a bus with dedicated bus lanes over a bus that fights double-parked cars and trucks for hours every day will be only "slightly more reliable"? Even other routes, though they might improve only "slightly" (another word up for interpretation), have improved. Just look at the Comptroller's report. 

The B82 is so awful that the SBS should have significant positive impact. Not every route has the overcrowding, the delays and the slow speeds the B82 has. It's a route which is uniquely broken and needs improvement. SBS is doing that improvement this summer. Without SBS the improvement might have come in a decade or two, maybe never. 

Yes SBS is all promises. What should happen. But it doesn't happen. Speeds and reliability just slightly increased according to the Comptroller. We can have real improvements without SBS at a much lower cost. 

 

[MidwoodMartin]

4 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

but they won't so they can give credit for the improvements to SBS. 

Well, doesn't SBS deserve the credit? Question is, can they do these things without SBS? Sure, theoretically they could. Make 20 different projects. One for a bus lane, one for an articulated bus, one for the off-board tickets, one for reroutes etc. But we both know that without it being done under SBS those things simply would be virtually impossible to achieve. So the SBS is a great tool which advances these projects and actually gets them done. Just think of it. By this summer it will all be complete. Without SBS, these improvements to the B82 might have never seen the light of day. 

7 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Why spend $3 million a year extra to operate a route for lower patronage? 

The SBS isn't going to cause significantly lower patronage. The "lower" numbers for some of the SBS routes are very slim. I'd even argue those are natural declines in bus ridership. Plus many SBS routes have shown an increase in ridership.

Oh and why spend that money on the route if not for increased ridership? Well, maybe so that people wouldn't be late to work or school or other places they need to be? To help over 27k everyday riders on the B82 who are struggling in crowded and delayed buses. I think that's worth it. 

Again, SBS is not just there to increase ridership. That's one of the outcomes which is hoped. But even without it it has many, many benefits. 

8 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

 Just put in attics then. And the B82 doesn't even go to those places without transferring.

Again, you expect someone to put in articulated buses just like that? Without it being done for SBS? I see that as very, very, very unlikely. 
I was talking about 1601 Kings Highway and Kingswood Center where the B82 goes to. 

21 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

 Just look at the Comptroller's report. 

I did look at that report, I have a copy of it at home. It's a report, I'd say, partly based on misleading data and flawed conclusions. However, even that report said that SBS improved many of those routes. It just said that the improvement wasn't as strong as expected. It's main criticism was that SBS wasn't the "magical solution" it was promised to be. And I don't think SBS is supposed to be that "magical solution". Yes, routes can still have issues even with SBS. The B82 might still have issues even as a SBS. But if you ask people who now ride SBS routes over their old limited routes, I'd say that a vast majority (in my experience) have said that service has improved for them. 

The B82 is such a terrible route that it doesn't need a "magical solution". It just need some answer. An answer. Just something to reduce those crowds and make these buses run. Even just some improvement in speed and some reduction in the large crowds could help many thousands of people come to work or school on time. And that's an important thing to do. 

27 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

We can have real improvements without SBS at a much lower cost. 

I don't think that's realistic at all. You expect the DOT/MTA to team up and do all of those things (lanes, reroutes, articulated buses) just like that? Come on. Let's be realistic. 

It seems you agree with much of the rest of the SBS (enforced bus lanes, articulated buses, off-board ticketing), but oppose it because of a few lanes you find unnecessary.

I see SBS as a really great opportunity to help this broken bus. Real improvements without an incentive for the DOT/MTA to do it? It's just unrealistic.

[B35 via Church]

We have a number of SBS routes in the system as it is & you still have current riders complaining about bus service on some of these routes.... So how successful is SBS really? Not as successful as the MTA will have you believe that it is, that's for sure, and that's my problem..... So many riders out here are being duped into believing that SBS coming to their route will be this automatic insta-fix & it's just not the case.... The MTA is more focused on pushing the branding, more-so than comprehensively trying to get bus service in general in a state where it needs to be.... For proof of that, I direct you to your nearest route that SBS isn't being ran on....

 

9 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

Thank you for that comment. I get tired of hearing some people on here thinking that splitting routes are the only solution to a route that is slow. It’s not. Bus lanes help if enforced and so does off board payment. But yet some how everybody likes the old way. 

You're either being very myopic or very disingenuous here...

Never mind that the route is long-winded to begin with... Nope, that doesn't matter..... Nope, that was never brought up as an actual concern..... But you get to setup a straw-man argument, attack it, and try to pass it off to readers on here that the opposing stance being presented is that of having slow bus routes split, being the only solution...

Yes, everybody likes the old way - when their route was more reliable... Imagine that....

2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Splitting routes has nothing to do with speed. It has to do with reliability. 

e.g..... the M5 (S. Ferry - GWB rendition) & the B61 (Red Hook - Queens Plz. rendition).....

7 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Splitting the route is only one measure. The curbside bus lanes they are proposing and reroutings on Avenue K and on Glenwood Road will also help. The bus lanes on the wide portion of Kings Highway are totally unnecessary. Off board fare payment should also help a little. (It barely helped on the 86 Street route.) SBS should connect new neighborhoods and not merely be a replacement of Limited routes. 

I don't see what one has to do with the other, to be perfectly honest....

New routes, or alterations of current routes should connect new neighborhoods (you did that when you created the B1 & you didn't need SBS to do it !).... But yes, the enhancements that's being done under the umbrella of SBS should have been done with LTD routes.... This agency don't want the routes to succeed, they want SBS to succeed.....

1 hour ago, MidwoodMartin said:

I see SBS as a really great opportunity to help this broken bus. Real improvements without an incentive for the DOT/MTA to do it? It's just unrealistic.

So the MTA needs to come up with a new branding as an incentive to want to fix problematic bus routes like the B82?

Edited February 20, 2018 by B35 via Church

[bobtehpanda]

8 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I never said the B82 shouldn't be fixed. I said SBS isn't necessary to fix it. The data is also misleading. They don't tell you what tine periods are being used. If you average the speeds over 24 hours, there is no way you would get under 5mph anywhere. If you check all the presentations where they show a little bit of data in each by different times of the say, you will see that it varies greatly by time period. There are other areas in dark green on those maps. Most of Ocean Avenue to Flatbush is in dark green except for the few blocks around Nostrand for all but three hours a day. They need to present all they data in one place which is not what they are doing. They present selected data to give misleading impressions. 

But let's take the portion between McDonald and E 16 which is very slow. The recommendations to have curbside bus lanes if enforced, should help a great deal.  BUT THEY CAN DO THIS WITHOUT SBS. They can reroute the bus to Avenue K and do the Glenwood Road rerouting also without doing SBS but they will attribute those increases in speed to SBS. 

And reducing road capacity by one third has to slow down traffic and cause congestion, just like it did on Woodhaven Blvd. 

So let's say they do all of that without the SBS label. What exactly did that achieve besides pulling off the label?

This huge anti-SBS tilt is so ridiculous I'm surprised anybody takes you seriously. You can find some windmills on Google Maps these days.

50 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

So the MTA needs to come up with a new branding as an incentive to want to fix problematic bus routes like the B82?

Even as a pretty pro-SBS person here, SBS branding primarily exists to get federal dollars. I don't disapprove of the tactic - we all gotta hustle.

That being said, the MTA and DOT could hustle a little bit faster when it comes to bringing these improvements to the rest of the system.

Edited February 20, 2018 by bobtehpanda

[Brillant93]

5 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

 

Never mind that the route is long-winded to begin with... Nope, that doesn't matter..... Nope, that was never brought up as an actual concern..... But you get to setup a straw-man argument, attack it, and try to pass it off to readers on here that the opposing stance being presented is that of having slow bus routes split, being the only solution...

Yes, everybody likes the old way - when their route was more reliable... Imagine that....

 

Oh boy this guy 🙄

You guys don’t provide any other solution other than hurr durr split up bus routes. Yeah everyone likes the old way back at a time when the city was different. Give me a break. 

The funny thing a lot of you people who hate anything new to try and improve our transit system really don’t do much for be solutions. You claim it was more reliable back then but back then we didn’t have Uber, internet shopping that requires mailing trucks out more, and so on. Our city has grown in population and yet our system hasn’t met up with it. We have congestion problems that hurt our buses and the solution would be faster boarding times, bus lanes, and more major stops. You guys can all say “we they could have done that with the limited” but yet we’re they going to? No. You don’t do nothing to try and make it better for anyone here. You don’t complain, you don’t join groups that try and advocate better solutions. The only thing you guys do is complain about sbs and nothing more. You say I pull up straw man arguments? Look around on this sub forum. Your solutions are nothing more than failed old tactics. 

I told you before I’m not interested in arguing with you. It doesn’t help the discussion. 

[BrooklynBus]

6 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

Oh boy this guy 🙄

You guys don’t provide any other solution other than hurr durr split up bus routes. Yeah everyone likes the old way back at a time when the city was different. Give me a break. 

The funny thing a lot of you people who hate anything new to try and improve our transit system really don’t do much for be solutions. You claim it was more reliable back then but back then we didn’t have Uber, internet shopping that requires mailing trucks out more, and so on. Our city has grown in population and yet our system hasn’t met up with it. We have congestion problems that hurt our buses and the solution would be faster boarding times, bus lanes, and more major stops. You guys can all say “we they could have done that with the limited” but yet we’re they going to? No. You don’t do nothing to try and make it better for anyone here. You don’t complain, you don’t join groups that try and advocate better solutions. The only thing you guys do is complain about sbs and nothing more. You say I pull up straw man arguments? Look around on this sub forum. Your solutions are nothing more than failed old tactics. 

I told you before I’m not interested in arguing with you. It doesn’t help the discussion. 

The MTA really sold you a bill of goods regarding SBS. Why don't you look at the results instead of the promises? Buses are either losing ridership in droves or fare evasion is totally out of control. I believe the Eagle Team is only on SBS buses and enforcement is not all that often. Ridership dipped 6 percent last year, about three times the dip of previous recent years. 

Now if SBS were as great as you claim, ridership should have soared on SBS routes and yet that didn't happen. Most SBS routes are still losing riders or have modest gains. 

And I do not recall anyone stating reliability was better in years past. It always sucked. And just because the MTA refuses to make "improvements" by doing things other than SBS, according to you that is the reason for all of us to get behind SBS. 

Then you claim we are not advocating other solutions and then you say our solutions are just failed old tactics. Totally untrue. I have proposed an entire new network for bus service in Brooklyn and I am sure others can do the same for the other boroughs. The MTA just dismisses any ideas they didn't come up with, or they spend ten years studying a single suggestion someone submitted and pass it off as their own. Look at the B1 that I created. I took a mediocre route, the B34 and some very poor routes like the B1 and B21 and proposed the B86. The MTA called it the B1 and took 40 years to make the complete route. It is now the seventh most utilized route in Brooklyn, recently rising from number ten. Then look at the new 30 minute routes began by the MTA. They are all at the bottom of the ridership list. I also did simple things like extending the B3 from 86 Street to Cropsey making a new connection with the B3 making it more useful while the MTA chooses to terminate routes several blocks from major transfer points minimizing their usefulness. 

I have even proposed improving SBS routes, not merely accepting what they have proposed like extending the B44 SBS to Kingsborough College. Now have been waiting two years for them to evaluate it. 

So when you say all we do is propose the same old solutions and only criticize SBS, I can tell you to give me a break. 

 

18 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Don't be ridiculous. Commonsense says that having passengers pay in advance speeds up the boarding process.

Where are the actual numbers? The M86 showed that with pre-payment only, buses saved less than two minutes river to river. And on the crosstown routes they should have done a cost benefit study to see if it would be cheaper just to make them free as Bloomberg proposed because of the high numbers transferring, than to spend all that money on machines and enforcement. But the MTA is not interested in other solutions, only pushing SBS. That way there still could be all door loading.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Brillant93 said:

Oh boy this guy 🙄

You guys don’t provide any other solution other than hurr durr split up bus routes. Yeah everyone likes the old way back at a time when the city was different. Give me a break. 

The funny thing a lot of you people who hate anything new to try and improve our transit system really don’t do much for be solutions. You claim it was more reliable back then but back then we didn’t have Uber, internet shopping that requires mailing trucks out more, and so on. Our city has grown in population and yet our system hasn’t met up with it. We have congestion problems that hurt our buses and the solution would be faster boarding times, bus lanes, and more major stops. You guys can all say “we they could have done that with the limited” but yet we’re they going to? No. You don’t do nothing to try and make it better for anyone here. You don’t complain, you don’t join groups that try and advocate better solutions. The only thing you guys do is complain about sbs and nothing more. You say I pull up straw man arguments? Look around on this sub forum. Your solutions are nothing more than failed old tactics. 

I told you before I’m not interested in arguing with you. It doesn’t help the discussion. 

Yeah right... and just what solution are you providing exactly? Coming on here riding on the MTA's coat-tails & conveying blind optimism that the MTA will eventually make things right, isn't a solution, guy.... Just where in the hell has that gotten the millions of riders in this city in the past 10, 20, 30, 40+ years exactly.... You give me a break with this wave of the future bit, like newer is always better.... You keep making this about being resistant to change, when that isn't remotely the issue here... There are times where things should simply be left the hell alone.... Speaking of "hurr durr split up bus routes", it's exactly what was done with the M5 last year - Apparently the MTA "likes the old way" too.... But let's do it the Brilliant93 way & advocate for longer bus routes so then we can all commence in complaining about unreliability when things go awry.....

As great as off-board payment/POP is, as beneficial as bus lanes are when they are enforced, none of that eliminates the fact that the B82 is unnecessarily long..... Those factors are not mutually exclusive... Furthermore, the route wasn't combined so that people can get from one end of Brooklyn to the other (as much as you want to believe), so seriously, cut the crap in trying to make like splitting up long, drawn out bus routes isn't a viable solution, or as you stubbornly & foolishly put it, amount to "failed old tactics"..... You can still have bus lanes & POP implemented on any resultant split route{s}....

My claim of the B5 & the B50 being more reliable back then & your reply to that being that we didn't have Uber, we have (more) delivery trucks on the roads, how our city has grown in population, etc., doesn't refute that assertion..... The longer a bus route is, the more prone to delays it is.... You can try to skirt around that fact as much as you like

How could the only thing "we guys" do is complain about SBS & nothing more, when you're sitting up here whimpering about & mocking a solution that was presented? The fact that you don't agree with a solution, doesn't make it any less of a solution..... As far as advocacy groups, well listen, the MTA's going to do what it wants regardless, so don't even try to convey that the MTA is so open to considering viewpoints/solutions from outsiders with little to no political pull whatsoever..... How effective are these "hearings" exactly.....

....and spare me the nonsense about not being bothered in arguing, already... It isn't my problem that you lack the wherewithal to a] handle & b] refute dissenting opinion..... Keep on with the grandstanding on here though, as if that's helping so-called helping these discussions.....

 

[BrooklynBus]

11 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

So let's say they do all of that without the SBS label. What exactly did that achieve besides pulling off the label?

This huge anti-SBS tilt is so ridiculous I'm surprised anybody takes you seriously. You can find some windmills on Google Maps these days.

Even as a pretty pro-SBS person here, SBS branding primarily exists to get federal dollars. I don't disapprove of the tactic - we all gotta hustle.

That being said, the MTA and DOT could hustle a little bit faster when it comes to bringing these improvements to the rest of the system.

If they made other improvements without the SBS label, they would get many of the same benefits without the cost of the machines and enforcement. It is possible that some routes need off board fare payment but not bus lanes. Or bus lanes without the rest of SBS. Or maybe just articulated buses. 

And wasting money on SBS just to get federal dollars is totally myopic and they way city and state officials are looking at SBS. But it is still our tax money which needs to be spent efficiently. SBS is being sold on promises. The proper data has not been collected to determine how successful it is or if it is successful at all. It is being pushed down our throats and you are gullible enough to believe them. 

 

4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah right... and just what solution are you providing exactly? Coming on here riding on the MTA's coat-tails & conveying blind optimism that the MTA will eventually make things right, isn't a solution, guy.... Just where in the hell has that gotten the millions of riders in this city in the past 10, 20, 30, 40+ years exactly.... You give me a break with this wave of the future bit, like newer is always better.... You keep making this about being resistant to change, when that isn't remotely the issue here... There are times where things should simply be left the hell alone.... Speaking of "hurr durr split up bus routes", it's exactly what was done with the M5 last year - Apparently the MTA "likes the old way" too.... But let's do it the Brilliant93 way & advocate for longer bus routes so then we can all commence in complaining about unreliability when things go awry.....

As great as off-board payment/POP is, as beneficial as bus lanes are when they are enforced, none of that eliminates the fact that the B82 is unnecessarily long..... Those factors are not mutually exclusive... Furthermore, the route wasn't combined so that people can get from one end of Brooklyn to the other (as much as you want to believe), so seriously, cut the crap in trying to make like splitting up long, drawn out bus routes isn't a viable solution, or as you stubbornly & foolishly put it, amount to "failed old tactics"..... You can still have bus lanes & POP implemented on any resultant split route{s}....

My claim of the B5 & the B50 being more reliable back then & your reply to that being that we didn't have Uber, we have (more) delivery trucks on the roads, how our city has grown in population, etc., doesn't refute that assertion..... The longer a bus route is, the more prone to delays it is.... You can try to skirt around that fact as much as you like

How could the only thing "we guys" do is complain about SBS & nothing more, when you're sitting up here whimpering about & mocking a solution that was presented? The fact that you don't agree with a solution, doesn't make it any less of a solution..... As far as advocacy groups, well listen, the MTA's going to do what it wants regardless, so don't even try to convey that the MTA is so open to considering viewpoints/solutions from outsiders with little to no political pull whatsoever..... How effective are these "hearings" exactly.....

....and spare me the nonsense about not being bothered in arguing, already... It isn't my problem that you lack the wherewithal to a] handle & b] refute dissenting opinion..... Keep on with the grandstanding on here though, as if that's helping so-called helping these discussions.....

 

Well said. 

 

17 hours ago, MidwoodMartin said:

My comments are in italics again. 

Why do what SBS does, without SBS? 

Because a route might need only one SBS feature and it would be that much cheaper.

Come on. Let's be honest. Was someone really going to do anything about the B82 bus route without it becoming a SBS route? I highly, highly, highly, highly doubt that. I highly doubt that anyone was going to install multiple bus lanes, ticketing stations, bring in articulated buses, and reroute the bus without it being done under the SBS banner.

Probably not. But as I said, a route may not need all that. They did add artics to Limited routes. To say we should just go along with the MTA because they wouldn't do anything else is ridiculous. I am a little older than you. The MTA has opposed anything new for years. It took them 20 years to agree to artics. At least five years to agree to three door artics. Like ten years for alternate fuel buses. They insisted for line 20 years that it was impossible to air condition the subways. Getting all those things were tremendous fights but eventually worthwhile. But according to you, if the MTA won't do something we should just roll over and support what they do want to do because anything else is unlikely. 

And especially not by 2018. In fact, I believe you do need SBS to do all of this.

I took the B82 in the mornings (7am), afternoons (2-5pm) and evenings (7-9pm). And each and every time it was the same exact horror story. Crowds and movement you could beat many times by walking. 

I did check a presentation and did find one graph (pg 9)  which used only 4:30-7pm and that had some more dark green areas, but still a huge number of red and dark orange areas. Feel free to send me one which shows great difference by time period. I wasn't able to find it. And if you'd take the B82 for a week, every day, I strongly believe that you'd find that data more than accurate. 

And does it really make sense to put a bus lane on one part of the street and then none on the other? Simply because one part on average has greater MPH than the other? On some parts I understand why the bus lanes don't encompass both streets or are not done at all due to parking concerns and lack of lanes. But those wide routes would see no parking reduction since the bus runs in the middle of the road. 

I don't see the goal of SBS to simply increase patronage or to lower fair evasion. Patronage by the numbers on the B82 is going to increase simply because of the many developments in the area. Imagine people trying to get to the new Target or Century21 on the B82 we have now. SBS is coming just at the right time to meet those people. Fair evasion is unstoppable with the current B82. There are thousands of people who jump onto the current B82 from the back door without paying due to the insane crowds, even though they might have payment. That's going to reduce automatically with the SBS. I don't need proof from other routes for that.

And you're telling me that a bus with dedicated bus lanes over a bus that fights double-parked cars and trucks for hours every day will be only "slightly more reliable"? Even other routes, though they might improve only "slightly" (another word up for interpretation), have improved. 

The B82 is so awful that the SBS should have significant positive impact.

There is that word "should". Look at the results, not the promises. 

Not every route has the overcrowding, the delays and the slow speeds the B82 has. It's a route which is uniquely broken and needs improvement. SBS is doing that improvement this summer. Without SBS the improvement might have come in a decade or two, maybe never. 

I don't agree the B82 is unique. And while SBS will be some improvement with the reroutings and curbside lanes if enforced and some improvement with paying before you board, I am afraid you will be disappointed. It will not do all you hope it will. And the people who will be most unhappy with it will be the local riders who will find their bus waits greatly increased with poorer local service and SBS will still arrive two buses at a time. 

And I think I already addressed some of your other comments. 

 

[P3F]

Couple of thoughts.

-I don't really mind the bus lanes from Ocean Av to Av K if they are only active during rush hours. Kings Highway isn't really going in the peak direction towards much of anywhere, and the section isn't extremely long in my opinion.

-Yes, reliability sucks. I live a mile from the station and oftentimes when I arrive, the B82 is 15-19 minutes away (this being during the PM rush or evening). On those occasions, I just walk and usually get home before the bus passes me. Before proposing to split the route, though, I'd like to see to what extent improvements such as bus lanes will help.

-The idea that off board fare payment will reduce fare evasion is ridiculous. The small amount of people who will start paying the fare due to better opportunities for doing so will be greatly offset by the folks who see the lack of enforcement and will decide to easily get in the back without paying.

-Cutting it back from Coney Island is fine because anybody actually going far from that bus terminal is just wasting their time. If someone needs points east, take the to the B82 at Kings Highway. In between there and CI, the and are still faster than taking the B82 from Mermaid Av.

[BrooklynBus]

3 hours ago, P3F said:

Couple of thoughts.

-I don't really mind the bus lanes from Ocean Av to Av K if they are only active during rush hours. Kings Highway isn't really going in the peak direction towards much of anywhere, and the section isn't extremely long in my opinion.

-Yes, reliability sucks. I live a mile from the station and oftentimes when I arrive, the B82 is 15-19 minutes away (this being during the PM rush or evening). On those occasions, I just walk and usually get home before the bus passes me. Before proposing to split the route, though, I'd like to see to what extent improvements such as bus lanes will help.

-The idea that off board fare payment will reduce fare evasion is ridiculous. The small amount of people who will start paying the fare due to better opportunities for doing so will be greatly offset by the folks who see the lack of enforcement and will decide to easily get in the back without paying.

-Cutting it back from Coney Island is fine because anybody actually going far from that bus terminal is just wasting their time. If someone needs points east, take the to the B82 at Kings Highway. In between there and CI, the and are still faster than taking the B82 from Mermaid Av.

I doubt they will be doing rush hour only lanes. The only bus lanes that will help are the curbside lanes. 

 

13 hours ago, MidwoodMartin said:

Well, doesn't SBS deserve the credit? Question is, can they do these things without SBS? Sure, theoretically they could. Make 20 different projects. One for a bus lane, one for an articulated bus, one for the off-board tickets, one for reroutes etc. But we both know that without it being done under SBS those things simply would be virtually impossible to achieve. So the SBS is a great tool which advances these projects and actually gets them done. Just think of it. By this summer it will all be complete. Without SBS, these improvements to the B82 might have never seen the light of day. 

The SBS isn't going to cause significantly lower patronage. The "lower" numbers for some of the SBS routes are very slim. I'd even argue those are natural declines in bus ridership. Plus many SBS routes have shown an increase in ridership.

Oh and why spend that money on the route if not for increased ridership? Well, maybe so that people wouldn't be late to work or school or other places they need to be? To help over 27k everyday riders on the B82 who are struggling in crowded and delayed buses. I think that's worth it. 

Again, SBS is not just there to increase ridership. That's one of the outcomes which is hoped. But even without it it has many, many benefits. 

Again, you expect someone to put in articulated buses just like that? Without it being done for SBS? I see that as very, very, very unlikely. 
I was talking about 1601 Kings Highway and Kingswood Center where the B82 goes to. 

I did look at that report, I have a copy of it at home. It's a report, I'd say, partly based on misleading data and flawed conclusions. However, even that report said that SBS improved many of those routes. It just said that the improvement wasn't as strong as expected. It's main criticism was that SBS wasn't the "magical solution" it was promised to be. And I don't think SBS is supposed to be that "magical solution". Yes, routes can still have issues even with SBS. The B82 might still have issues even as a SBS. But if you ask people who now ride SBS routes over their old limited routes, I'd say that a vast majority (in my experience) have said that service has improved for them. 

The B82 is such a terrible route that it doesn't need a "magical solution". It just need some answer. An answer. Just something to reduce those crowds and make these buses run. Even just some improvement in speed and some reduction in the large crowds could help many thousands of people come to work or school on time. And that's an important thing to do. 

I don't think that's realistic at all. You expect the DOT/MTA to team up and do all of those things (lanes, reroutes, articulated buses) just like that? Come on. Let's be realistic. 

It seems you agree with much of the rest of the SBS (enforced bus lanes, articulated buses, off-board ticketing), but oppose it because of a few lanes you find unnecessary.

I see SBS as a really great opportunity to help this broken bus. Real improvements without an incentive for the DOT/MTA to do it? It's just unrealistic.

SBS only deserves credit when they can prove it helps more than it hurts. They have not collected the proper data and have been misleading in showing results. For example on the B44, local riders were so upset since SBS was started, the MTA refused to reveal the results of the satisfaction survey for local riders so they claimed local riders were surveyed before SBS but not after SBS. 

And why couldn't they have 20 separate projects? It's not that there is any economy of scale by lumping everything into SBS. I wouldn't call the loss of 3 million annual riders for the M15 slim. Shouldn't all the routes with SBS have higher significantly patronage if it is as great as they claim? 

I didn't agree with many of the conclusions in the comptroller's report but didn't find any flawed data. Can you provide one example please?

You claim with SBS B82 riders won't be late anymore. But the Comptroller showed speeds for SBS was only slightly higher than before and reliability was almost just as bad.

You talk about how SBS is so much of an improvement for SBS riders. Don't local riders count also who have widely complained about less frequent local service since SBS? And what about the business owners screaming on Woodhaven Boulevard and those driving who have rides there that are taking 30 minutes longer? Don't they count also? And what about local riders who are forced into walking further and taking SBS because they are tired of watching three SBS buses bypassing them before a local comes by? 

Where is the data that shows more people are getting to their destinations quicker because of SBS? It doesn't exist. 

 

So let's look objectively at SBS. I just looked at the bus performance numbers in the February MTA Committee Report. This is how the MTA misleads. They compare wait assessment for local/limited with SBS. What they need to do is do separate statistics for each and not lump local and limited together. Even lumped together, SBS only slightly outperforms local/limited routes. What we need to know is how SBS compares with Limited and that they do not tell us. 

Also, they claim over 95 percent of all trips are completed. First I thought they were talking about scheduled trips, but they don't compare scheduled trips with actual trips which would be the important statistic to measure performance. What the statistic shows is breakdowns. 95 percent of trips that are made, are completed without the bus breaking down enroute. But what percentage of scheduled trips are actually made? That measures performance and is not shown.

Also, I am skeptical of their statistic that claims riders only wait more than five minutes longer than the scheduled wait a mere 25 percent of the time. If that were the case, riders would not be so unhappy with service.

[MidwoodMartin]

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Don't local riders count

Local riders? Seriously? I took the B82 hundreds of times. Most people avoid the local buses to get to a limited one. The limited stops are not too far from local stops. It's not like with the B44 where there was a senior center next to a local stop. And even there they're adding an SBS stop now.

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

those driving who have rides there that are taking 30 minutes longer?

Again, I do believe that rides with cars will become faster as well due to the B82 getting out of their lane. Not for a second do I believe that the B82 SBS would increase any car ride by 30 minutes, nor have I seem any data to prove that.

"

Quote

Where is the data that shows more people are getting to their destinations quicker because of SBS? "

Let's look at that report from the comptroller. It does show improvements. It just says that they're slim.

Plus you keep forgetting one major factor which statistics can't even prove if they wanted to: SBS reduces overcrowding. You have no idea how many buses I skipped due to them being packed to oblivion. 
You might say: just put in articulated buses! I say: without SBS, that isn't happening anytime soon! The 27k daily riders of the SBS shouldn't wait for 20 years for the MTA to bring them in without SBS. 

I can tell you that if I don't have to skip 4 buses due to overcrowding, that I will make it to my destination faster. 
Now the reports won't show that since they simply look at speed. Not at how many buses I have to skip to get to that bus in the first place.
 

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

The MTA has opposed anything new for years. It took them 20 years to agree to artics. At least five years to agree to three door artics. Like ten years for alternate fuel buses. They insisted for line 20 years that it was impossible to air condition the subways. Getting all those things were tremendous fights

That's exactly my point! We can't wait 20 years for those improvements to happen on their own. The B82 needs them now and SBS is providing them in one package. 

I agree with both you and B35 to Church that the SBS is highly unlikely to cause the route to be flawless. Yes, people might still have concerns even with the SBS. But it's something. And something is better than nothing. 

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

If they made other improvements without the SBS label, they would get many of the same benefits without the cost of the machines and enforcement. It is possible that some routes need off board fare payment but not bus lanes. Or bus lanes without the rest of SBS. Or maybe just articulated buses. 

And wasting money on SBS just to get federal dollars is totally myopic and they way city and state officials are looking at SBS. But it is still our tax money which needs to be spent efficiently. SBS is being sold on promises. The proper data has not been collected to determine how successful it is or if it is successful at all. It is being pushed down our throats and you are gullible enough to believe them. 

We already have SBS like that. The S79 has no off board payment, the M86 and M79 don't have actual bus lanes, etc.

The federal government takes so much of our money and barely gives it back. If anything, using federal dollars for this express purpose is the taxpayer-oriented solution. But every time you ask for "data", you move the goalposts every time it gets published, because it doesn't fit your narrative. Yet somehow even though the MTA literally publishes the real time location of every single bus, you also haven't made any sort of effort make data proving your own point. It takes two to tango.

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, MidwoodMartin said:

My responses in italics. 

Local riders? Seriously? I took the B82 hundreds of times. Most people avoid the local buses to get to a limited one.

You are drawing your conclusions from an SBS stop where many can take either bus. What about local stops like Ocean Parkway which are loaded with apartment buildings. How many of those riders do you think walk to McDonald or Coney Island Avenue to board the SBS?

The limited stops are not too far from local stops.

They are slightly over a half mile apart in most instances. 

It's not like with the B44 where there was a senior center next to a local stop. And even there they're adding an SBS stop now.

No. the MTA has since reneged on their promise to add a stop although DOT said it was willing to add a stop, but they won't do it without MTA agreement.

Again, I do believe that rides with cars will become faster as well due to the B82 getting out of their lane.

How could it become quicker with the main road reduced from two lanes to be for cars and the service road narrowed a intersections? 

Not for a second do I believe that the B82 SBS would increase any car ride by 30 minutes, nor have I seem any data to prove that.

Never said that would happen. Wa just pointing out what happened on Woodhaven Boulevard. But travel time for cars would still increase. 

Let's look at that report from the comptroller. It does show improvements. It just says that they're slim.

Yes, but what is missing is the cost benefit analysis that shows he slim improvements are worth the extra costs.  

Plus you keep forgetting one major factor which statistics can't even prove if they wanted to: SBS reduces overcrowding. You have no idea how many buses I skipped due to them being packed to oblivion. 

No it's the articulated buses that Reece the overcrowding provided they don't run fewer buses. Wait! In most cases they do.

You might say: just put in articulated buses! I say: without SBS, that isn't happening anytime soon! The 27k daily riders of the SBS shouldn't wait for 20 years for the MTA to bring them in without SBS. 

 But there is no reason they can't put in antics without SBS. They just don't want to. Just like they didn't want to buy them in the first place for 20 years. And what about the fact that they can't use them in heavy snow storms and the the labor and fuel costs for them are higher? Why aren't they substituted at night with 40 foot buses to lower the cost? 

I can tell you that if I don't have to skip 4 buses due to overcrowding, that I will make it to my destination faster. 
Now the reports won't show that since they simply look at speed. Not at how many buses I have to skip to get to that bus in the first place.

All that mean is additional service is warranted. That alone does not justify SBS.

That's exactly my point! We can't wait 20 years for those improvements to happen on their own. The B82 needs them now and SBS is providing them in one package. 

No one just waited for the MTA to air condition the trains or buy articulated buses. Rider groups fought like hell until the MTA relented. We can't just give up and let the MTA do whatever they want using misleading statistics or not collecting the right ones in the first place. 

I agree with both you and B35 to Church that the SBS is highly unlikely to cause the route to be flawless. Yes, people might still have concerns even with the SBS. But it's something. And something is better than nothing. 

Yes but as I stated you have to weigh those modest benefits against the costs to get those benefits and not gnome those who may be  inconvenienced like local bus riders or other traffic or the merchants. Their needs also count. It's not just about the bus riders although the MTA wants you to think it is. 

 

 

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

We already have SBS like that. The S79 has no off board payment, the M86 and M79 don't have actual bus lanes, etc.

The federal government takes so much of our money and barely gives it back. If anything, using federal dollars for this express purpose is the taxpayer-oriented solution. But every time you ask for "data", you move the goalposts every time it gets published, because it doesn't fit your narrative. Yet somehow even though the MTA literally publishes the real time location of every single bus, you also haven't made any sort of effort make data proving your own point. It takes two to tango.

I am not moving any goalposts. I have consistently asked for the same data. And how easy is it to obtain the real time data and how user friendly is it to get? You shouldn't have to be a computer expert or mathematician to get and use the data. Explain to me how to get the real time data so that it is in an easy format to interpret and not just a bunch of numbers I would have to run through a program to analyze. 

[Cait Sith]

As a reminder, please use the multi-quote feature. Merging posts is starting to get annoying along with seeing one page that mostly has one person responding to posts individually.

[checkmatechamp13]

5 hours ago, P3F said:

-The idea that off board fare payment will reduce fare evasion is ridiculous. The small amount of people who will start paying the fare due to better opportunities for doing so will be greatly offset by the folks who see the lack of enforcement and will decide to easily get in the back without paying.

-Cutting it back from Coney Island is fine because anybody actually going far from that bus terminal is just wasting their time. If someone needs points east, take the to the B82 at Kings Highway. In between there and CI, the and are still faster than taking the B82 from Mermaid Av.

6

With on-board fare payment, once the B/O lets you get on, you're pretty much "in the clear". With off-board fare payment, you're not "in the clear" until you're off the bus, because the Eagle Team can be present at any stop.

The  I can agree with you. But with the  and , with how they crawl through the Coney Island Yard, I'd personally prefer the bus. At least you feel like you're actually moving.

2 hours ago, MidwoodMartin said:

Plus you keep forgetting one major factor which statistics can't even prove if they wanted to: SBS reduces overcrowding. You have no idea how many buses I skipped due to them being packed to oblivion. 
You might say: just put in articulated buses! I say: without SBS, that isn't happening anytime soon! The 27k daily riders of the SBS shouldn't wait for 20 years for the MTA to bring them in without SBS. 

 

Articulated buses do provide extra capacity, but they are there primarily to save money, because in the end, it's still fewer drivers they need to put behind the wheel (which translates to a lower frequency than there would be without artics). Each artic provides about 1.5 times the capacity of a 40-foot bus, so they reduce service at a 3:2 or 5:4 ratio (standard:artic ratio), depending on the time of day. (Service at low-frequency times such as evenings and overnights remains the same, though)

1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

You are drawing your conclusions from an SBS stop where many can take either bus. What about local stops like Ocean Parkway which are loaded with apartment buildings. How many of those riders do you think walk to McDonald or Coney Island Avenue to board the SBS?

They are slightly over a half mile apart in most instances. 

1

That means an additional quarter mile of walking once you're on the street with the bus. Not too unreasonable considering there's people who currently walk 1+ mile to get home when they check BusTime and see the next bus is 15+ minutes away.

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

That means an additional quarter mile of walking once you're on the street with the bus. Not too unreasonable considering there's people who currently walk 1+ mile to get home when they check BusTime and see the next bus is 15+ minutes away.

But the guidelines for local bus service except for outer Staten Island is a quarter-mile to the nearest bus line. So if everyone lives along Kings Highway, you are correct. But since the closest east-west bus line to the north is on Avenue N or M, that means you also have to walk half that distance to Kings Highway which is already a quarte mile walk. So to walk to McDonald is a half mile walk, the standard for a subway line and SBS is no subway. The same is true if you are coming from the south. One quarter-mile for half the distance from Avenue U plus another half mile to McDonald or Coney Island Avenue. Then you may also have an extra walk at the otter end of your trip. I don't think too many local riders will walk to the SBS stop unless they find themselves having to wait a half hour four a local which wouldn't surprise me since most SBS routes had their local service worsen since SBS, particularly the M15 which probably explains the huge passenger declines on that route. It is less ne'er worth it to wait fir a bus for under a half mile trip. 

[checkmatechamp13]

1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

But the guidelines for local bus service except for outer Staten Island is a quarter-mile to the nearest bus line. So if everyone lives along Kings Highway, you are correct. But since the closest east-west bus line to the north is on Avenue N or M, that means you also have to walk half that distance to Kings Highway which is already a quarte mile walk. So to walk to McDonald is a half mile walk, the standard for a subway line and SBS is no subway. The same is true if you are coming from the south. One quarter-mile for half the distance from Avenue U plus another half mile to McDonald or Coney Island Avenue. Then you may also have an extra walk at the otter end of your trip. I don't think too many local riders will walk to the SBS stop unless they find themselves having to wait a half hour four a local which wouldn't surprise me since most SBS routes had their local service worsen since SBS, particularly the M15 which probably explains the huge passenger declines on that route. It is less ne'er worth it to wait fir a bus for under a half mile trip. 

3

In that particular case, there's also the train available at Avenue P that somebody could take for 1 stop if they didn't feel like walking all the way to McDonald Avenue (or in the other direction, there's the B68).

In any case, most limited stops are generally spaced every 1/2 mile throughout the city, and there are a decent amount of people who walk further to the limited stop even though the closest stop on their "home route" is a local stop. The same way there's people who are traveling between two limited stops who will take a local if it shows up first. In the end, people care about their overall travel time, and if the quickest way happens to involve a lot of walking, so be it. The local is still available for those who physically can't walk that far (though I do agree with you that they should still maintain a high-quality local, though their treatment of the B44, B46 and M15 locals concerns me as well). Especially since the local will be the one going to Coney Island, and there's no other local route on the southern part of Cropsey Avenue.

Me personally, if there's a street with local and limited-stop service on it, I'll walk to that street, check if there's a bus coming, and if not I'll keep walking until I hit a stop where both local and limited-stop service is available. (Assuming that my original stop was local-only, which is rare to begin with since limited stops are usually near major activity centers and/or transfer points). That way, I can get the limited if it comes first.

Edited February 20, 2018 by checkmatechamp13