Fare hikes, and free bus rides? A bill that’ll give you both is in the works.

[NBTA]

NYC counsel wants to pass this bill for free bus service, and for the fare hike to not be a thing in this next 4-5 year cycle for the MTA.
 

https://queenspost.com/new-11-billion-state-bill-would-bail-out-mta-freeze-fare-hikes-and-provide-free-bus-rides

[Via Garibaldi 8]

My Assemblyman claims that there's a bill that's been introduced that would also include the express buses... Bill A4122... See screenshot below.

[MysteriousBtrain]

12 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

My Assemblyman claims that there's a bill that's been introduced that would also include the express buses... Bill A4122... See screenshot below.

Express buses is a bit much to add. Discount yes, but express service is not something everyone should be getting on for free.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Express buses is a bit much to add. Discount yes, but express service is not something everyone should be getting on for free.

Yeah, I've never called for free express buses. I've had a number of conversations with his office about express bus fares, including having lower fares and fare capping for OMNY. I will say that he is working to deliver for the district.  I've been very outspoken, not only to the electeds, but my Community Board about the idea that the district is bus dependent because of the lack of subway access.

That said, I understand why this is being pushed for (the whole thing (local buses, express buses, etc.) in general).  Vehicular congestion is worsening and there have to be ways to incentivize people to use the system again.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Via Garibaldi 8

[N6 Limited]

What kind of demand would this place on routes like the B25, Q60, Q66, etc as people avoid paying for the subway?

[engineerboy6561]

1 hour ago, N6 Limited said:

What kind of demand would this place on routes like the B25, Q60, Q66, etc as people avoid paying for the subway?

Some, but probably not as much as in the worst case scenario. The Q66 is scheduled to take 57 minutes to an hour to cover the same distance as the covers in 23 minutes and the covers in 17, the Q60 takes 75 minutes to cover what the plus walking covers in 48, and the B25 takes 45 minutes to an hour to do what the does in 13-15 minutes. You'll lose some folks to the buses, but I don't think there's going to be a huge number of people who are going to be willing to incur that sort of time penalty on longer trips.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 hours ago, engineerboy6561 said:

Some, but probably not as much as in the worst case scenario. The Q66 is scheduled to take 57 minutes to an hour to cover the same distance as the covers in 23 minutes and the covers in 17, the Q60 takes 75 minutes to cover what the plus walking covers in 48, and the B25 takes 45 minutes to an hour to do what the does in 13-15 minutes. You'll lose some folks to the buses, but I don't think there's going to be a huge number of people who are going to be willing to incur that sort of time penalty on longer trips.

You're underestimating how many people would avoid it.  When the local buses were free they were a lot more crowded than they are now and that was at the peak of COVID.  I would say with inflation being what it is, I could see a number of people riding them, even with long trips. Some people already ride the local buses now because they are concerned about safety on the train (and that's for long trips), but making the local buses free would absolutely increase ridership substantially.  If you rode the local buses all the time, you'd essentially have free transportation vs. whatever you'd pay for the subway.

[engineerboy6561]

5 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You're underestimating how many people would avoid it.  When the local buses were free they were a lot more crowded than they are now and that was at the peak of COVID.  I would say with inflation being what it is, I could see a number of people riding them, even with long trips. Some people already ride the local buses now because they are concerned about safety on the train (and that's for long trips), but making the local buses free would absolutely increase ridership substantially.  If you rode the local buses all the time, you'd essentially have free transportation vs. whatever you'd pay for the subway.

That's fair; I could see the subway becoming the thing you do for situations where you need to be somewhere significantly more quickly than the buses, but then the buses become the default mode of transport for most people. Like you could totally do a commute from East Midtown up to North Riverdale on local buses and it wouldn't actually be that bad (M101 from East Midtown to 68 St, M98 from 68 St to 179th and Broadway, then Bx7 from 179th and Broadway up to North Riverdale; hell, back when I was living with my parents on Sedgwick and Van Cortlandt sometimes I'd take the M98 up to 179th and Amsterdam, then take the Bx3 most of the rest of the way home.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, engineerboy6561 said:

That's fair; I could see the subway becoming the thing you do for situations where you need to be somewhere significantly more quickly than the buses, but then the buses become the default mode of transport for most people. Like you could totally do a commute from East Midtown up to North Riverdale on local buses and it wouldn't actually be that bad (M101 from East Midtown to 68 St, M98 from 68 St to 179th and Broadway, then Bx7 from 179th and Broadway up to North Riverdale; hell, back when I was living with my parents on Sedgwick and Van Cortlandt sometimes I'd take the M98 up to 179th and Amsterdam, then take the Bx3 most of the rest of the way home.

I'm speaking from experience.  When we had hurricane Sandy and they made the express buses free, they were packed as in either every seat filled or standing room only (every trip - to say I was annoyed is putting it mildly).  People that normally wouldn't take it rode because why not? It's free. lol  Even if the trips on the local buses were longer and some transfers were needed, if you don't care about time, people will ride them because it saves them technically $5.50 round trip or more depending on how many places they are going.  What I've been hearing now from people esp. now with the hybrid schedule or WFH, when they do transit, quite a few of them have noted that they'll take the local bus, even though it takes 2-3 times longer because they are concerned about safety.  Making it free would just give them another reason to ride.

Now of course people that are in a rush will either opt for Uber or the subway depending on how much they are willing to spend, but anytime you have something being provided for free, people will make sacrifices to take advantage of it.

[Kriston Lewis]

I’ll say this, during the height of the pandemic, I never stepped foot on the subway. I took the local or express bus everywhere whenever possible since it was safer at the time. I’m back on the subway now, but there are definitely people who will prefer a longer bus trip if it was perceived to be safer (and also free).

[IAlam]

10 hours ago, engineerboy6561 said:

Some, but probably not as much as in the worst case scenario. The Q66 is scheduled to take 57 minutes to an hour to cover the same distance as the covers in 23 minutes and the covers in 17, the Q60 takes 75 minutes to cover what the plus walking covers in 48, and the B25 takes 45 minutes to an hour to do what the does in 13-15 minutes. You'll lose some folks to the buses, but I don't think there's going to be a huge number of people who are going to be willing to incur that sort of time penalty on longer trips.

To be fair with the they way subways are we need more capacity on lines that just do not have it, so having a lot more people taking the bus especially for shorter trips does add capacity. It just adds another later of service, just more noticeable this time.

 

[engineerboy6561]

1 hour ago, IAlam said:

To be fair with the they way subways are we need more capacity on lines that just do not have it, so having a lot more people taking the bus especially for shorter trips does add capacity. It just adds another later of service, just more noticeable this time.

 

Fair, I mean the important thing is to make sure there's the money to increase bus service frequency and speed on corridors that parallel overcrowded subway lines; ideally even if we can't give Northern Bl a subway or QBL a bypass we should seriously consider frequency increases, bus lanes, and limited-stop service on routes that parallel overused subway corridors. My thought would be to add bus lanes on Queens Blvd, Northern Blvd, and the Queensboro Bridge(the two boulevards  and the bridge are more than wide enough to take it), boost both routes up to 12bph during the day, and offer 6bph limited-stop service along both from East 60 St.

Edited February 19, 2023 by engineerboy6561

[Mtatransit]

On 2/17/2023 at 10:11 AM, NBTA said:

NYC counsel wants to pass this bill for free bus service, and for the fare hike to not be a thing in this next 4-5 year cycle for the MTA.
 

https://queenspost.com/new-11-billion-state-bill-would-bail-out-mta-freeze-fare-hikes-and-provide-free-bus-rides

No No No No. I never been a fan of free transit in general anywhere

If the transit is crap it doesn’t matter if you gave me $1 to ride. If I’m still going to work late. Doesn’t really apply to NYC really if you are going to Manhattan but definitely in other places like Kansas City

I would much rather they put the money into their 6 minute headway goal instead

On 2/17/2023 at 2:56 PM, MysteriousBtrain said:

Express buses is a bit much to add. Discount yes, but express service is not something everyone should be getting on for free.

If express bus was free, it would quickly become overcrowded from both LIRR passengers and subway-bus passengers.

Port Washington will lose 50% of its ridership lol and QM3 will be running every 2 minutes

On 2/18/2023 at 9:01 AM, N6 Limited said:

What kind of demand would this place on routes like the B25, Q60, Q66, etc as people avoid paying for the subway?

Similar to SEPTA before they introduced free transfers, instead of transferring to the Broad St Subway at first opportunity they took the bus all the way downtown, essentially running two parellel system

On 2/18/2023 at 10:56 AM, engineerboy6561 said:

Some, but probably not as much as in the worst case scenario. The Q66 is scheduled to take 57 minutes to an hour to cover the same distance as the covers in 23 minutes and the covers in 17, the Q60 takes 75 minutes to cover what the plus walking covers in 48, and the B25 takes 45 minutes to an hour to do what the does in 13-15 minutes. You'll lose some folks to the buses, but I don't think there's going to be a huge number of people who are going to be willing to incur that sort of time penalty on longer trips.

Or they will just take the free bus and hop the turnstiles for the subway. 

Expect even less people to buy passes

 

The fare is not the incentive for people to take transit/reduce congestion. Transit is already the cheapest way to get around. Having better service is. That means not having buses that is suppose to run every 20 minutes at night skip a interval, having subway service that bunch when it is already scheduled to run every 12 minutes , endless constructions and slow orders..

I like their 6 minutes proposal more. Many cities around the world operate 6 min or better service on their lines with less interlining though. Even having every 8 min on weekend would be a massive improvement. 
 

As for buses, I’m glad MTA have so far has not been going back to the old ways where they cut service every month because of their guidelines and wonder why the ridership drops afterwards. (They just don’t fill runs now but that’s another story) 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Mtatransit

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

The fare is not the incentive for people to take transit/reduce congestion. Transit is already the cheapest way to get around. Having better service is. That means not having buses that is suppose to run every 20 minutes at night skip a interval, having subway service that bunch when it is already scheduled to run every 12 minutes , endless constructions and slow orders..

I like their 6 minutes proposal more. Many cities around the world operate 6 min or better service on their lines with less interlining though. Even having every 8 min on weekend would be a massive improvement. 
 

As for buses, I’m glad MTA have so far has not been going back to the old ways where they cut service every month because of their guidelines and wonder why the ridership drops afterwards. (They just don’t fill runs now but that’s another story) 

The six minute proposal is not from the . It was proposed by the Riders Alliance. 

[Mtatransit]

27 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The six minute proposal is not from the . It was proposed by the Riders Alliance. 

Yeah either way I’m in favor of working towards that instead of making buses free across the city

[Lawrence St]

52 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

Yeah either way I’m in favor of working towards that instead of making buses free across the city

I’m not. We already have to pay more for those that don’t, why reward that behavior?

[B35 via Church]

59 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

No No No No. I never been a fan of free transit in general anywhere

Same,

59 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

If the transit is crap it doesn’t matter if you gave me $1 to ride.

True, but my thing more is (although they're trying to improve on it), PR is a major issue with the MTA. as far as the riding public is concerned - even more so than the fare.....

1 hour ago, Mtatransit said:

If express bus was free, it would quickly become overcrowded from both LIRR passengers and subway-bus passengers.

Port Washington will lose 50% of its ridership lol and QM3 will be running every 2 minutes

Lol, not a chance on that last part.... The QM3 would continue to operate under current headways, which would force people that are proximate to the QM3 to embark on some other route.... The MTA makes (what some people on here have dubbed) hidden cuts to routes that operate on low headways, so there's not much of any reason to think that they would drastically increase service on a route with high headways (and/or narrow service span), when there's zero farebox revenue being collected....

1 hour ago, Mtatransit said:

Or they will just take the free bus and hop the turnstiles for the subway. 

Expect even less people to buy passes

Shit, the bus (and the subway, for the matter) has been free for quite a number of people for years now.... I often hear people being braggadocious (sp?) about the last time they paid for the bus/train being _____________ (some timeframe no where near 2022)..... Point being, it would just be another day in the neighborhood for all these current farebeaters participating in this farebeating culture in this city....

1 hour ago, Mtatransit said:

The fare is not the incentive for people to take transit/reduce congestion. Transit is already the cheapest way to get around. Having better service is. That means not having buses that is suppose to run every 20 minutes at night skip a interval, having subway service that bunch when it is already scheduled to run every 12 minutes , endless constructions and slow orders..

In other words, making public transit free isn't a/the surefire remedy to go about reducing congestion.... It's a very old pro-transit talking point that I never really concurred with....

I would go as far as to say that free public transit would be a deterrent to some of the people that currently utilize public transportation in this city.... Something that's underrated about NYC transit is that there's a wide variety (and far more closer to a balance) of people of differing economic classes that takes buses & trains.... Have this happen, hate to say it, but things would start to lean that much more closer to how the pro-car folks view public transit in general.... Making transit free for the sake of bringing the ridership numbers up is inorganic & quite frankly, won't be sustainable for the long term.....

[Mtatransit]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Same,

True, but my thing more is (although they're trying to improve on it), PR is a major issue with the MTA. as far as the riding public is concerned - even more so than the fare.....

Lol, not a chance on that last part.... The QM3 would continue to operate under current headways, which would force people that are proximate to the QM3 to embark on some other route.... The MTA makes (what some people on here have dubbed) hidden cuts to routes that operate on low headways, so there's not much of any reason to think that they would drastically increase service on a route with high headways (and/or narrow service span), when there's zero farebox revenue being collected....

Shit, the bus (and the subway, for the matter) has been free for quite a number of people for years now.... I often hear people being braggadocious (sp?) about the last time they paid for the bus/train being _____________ (some timeframe no where near 2022)..... Point being, it would just be another day in the neighborhood for all these current farebeaters participating in this farebeating culture in this city....

In other words, making public transit free isn't a/the surefire remedy to go about reducing congestion.... It's a very old pro-transit talking point that I never really concurred with....

I would go as far as to say that free public transit would be a deterrent to some of the people that currently utilize public transportation in this city.... Something that's underrated about NYC transit is that there's a wide variety (and far more closer to a balance) of people of differing economic classes that takes buses & trains.... Have this happen, hate to say it, but things would start to lean that much more closer to how the pro-car folks view public transit in general.... Making transit free for the sake of bringing the ridership numbers up is inorganic & quite frankly, won't be sustainable for the long term.....

Yeah though I think hating on the MTA is almost part of an identity of someone from New York at this point

Regarding the QM3 comment, it was in reference to the incentive for people to shun the LIRR in order to take the QM3, which is exactly what we do not need. It is inefficient to shift/incentive people to go from a higher capacity transit to a lower capacity transit, which is exactly what free buses will do

I also agree with your assessment that free transit will deter some people from riding. LA Metro is a classic example of this. It’s not free but it’s easy to not pay as the gates are never working and stuck in the open position. It is downright scary to be down there at times. They have it much worse than NY. If women are afraid to ride the subway here there is no way they would ride in LA. The amount of characters seen on the subway will increase which will actually decrease the amount of people who are so called “normal” from riding, and only having people who are captive is usually not a good sign for transit

[B35 via Church]

4 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

Yeah though I think hating on the MTA is almost part of an identity of someone from New York at this point

Regarding the QM3 comment, it was in reference to the incentive for people to shun the LIRR in order to take the QM3, which is exactly what we do not need. It is inefficient to shift/incentive people to go from a higher capacity transit to a lower capacity transit, which is exactly what free buses will do

I also agree with your assessment that free transit will deter some people from riding. LA Metro is a classic example of this. It’s not free but it’s easy to not pay as the gates are never working and stuck in the open position. It is downright scary to be down there at times. They have it much worse than NY. If women are afraid to ride the subway here there is no way they would ride in LA. The amount of characters seen on the subway will increase which will actually decrease the amount of people who are so called “normal” from riding, and only having people who are captive is usually not a good sign for transit

Part of an identity, with good reason.... Look at how many times the MTA's continued to f*** the riding public over (some, more than others)...

Yeah, I get you.... Since you expressed it in the manner/verbiage that you did though, I took an(other) opportunity there to reinforce my point that the MTA simply wouldn't increase service, due to however large an increase in patronage of people ending up suddenly using the buses more, due to fares being waived.... It's not the first time I've seen that sentiment being expressed on here.... The MTA's attitude would be one of *if you can't get on this bus, due to overcrowding, tough*.... Shouldn't be unbeknownst to anyone paying attention in these spaces at this point, that part of the reason they're doing these borough redesigns now is to try to cram as many dam people as they can per stop, per bus....

What's also scary is that you'll have some people viewing this free transit shit as a sign of benevolence.