Why are the Central Park West stations so deep?

[CenSin]

1. What does the elevator have to do with transfering to the Lex? 59 Street is not ADA accessable.

It has this to do with transferring to the Lexington Avenue line:

• The stations are too far apart and the Lexington Avenue/63 Street station is way too deep.
• When the elevators and/or escalators are out of service, the transfer takes even more time.

2. Yes, a stop won't kill a line, but it also depends on where the stop is. That's almost like saying turn 14 Street into an express station on 6 Avenue so the and can connect to the . It would be a nice connection, but it would defeat the purpose of the 6 Avenue express.

That should probably be arranged as well. Considering the fact that 14 Street is an express stop on every line except the 6 Avenue line, I'd wager that the only impediment to making it an express stop would be the cost and engineering headaches. The doesn't need it so much though since 8 Avenue gives passengers access to Central Park West and Union Square gives passengers access to all of the other Brooklyn lines.

 

 

Of course, this might be a bad example because the and have more express stops than the and , but my point is, the way Lex is set up, if 51 Street became an express stop, it would slow down the express, and 51 Street is not that popular to even need express service.

It has everything to do with the transfer and not the popularity of the station itself. The Lexington Avenue line is important enough that the MTA was willing to do a free transfer between it and the 63 Street line. Despite the obvious uses, it's something not done for the Crosstown and Jamaica lines nor the Canarsie and New Lots Avenue lines. The Crosstown and Flushing lines only got the out-of-system transfer before the physical connection was built due to the community pressuring for concessions.

 

Maybe the popularity of the station is caused by the lack of express service? If I were at 47 Street and Lexington Avenue, I'd walk that one extra block for Grand Central–42 Street.

[CenSin]

I'd like you to consider travel between these stations:

• Jamaica–179 Street ↔ Bowling Green

  Those transfers are going to waste your time one way or another. You're going to be on the local, or you're going to spend extra time transferring to an express.

  → to Whitehall Street–South Ferry or Rector Street

  …→ →

  …→ →

  …⟶

• 75 Avenue ↔ Bedford Park Boulevard–Lehman College

  Those kids living in Queens who need to get to Bronx Science High School knew what they were signing up for when the picked that school.

  ⟶

  …→ →

• Forest Hills–71 Avenue ↔ Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall

  To take the local to the express, or to take the express to the local… that is the question!

  →

  →

  ⟶

There are no winners.

[MysteriousBtrain]

It has everything to do with the transfer and not the popularity of the station itself. The Lexington Avenue line is important enough that the MTA was willing to do a free transfer between it and the 63 Street line. Despite the obvious uses, it's something not done for the Crosstown and Jamaica lines nor the Canarsie and New Lots Avenue lines. The Crosstown and Flushing lines only got the out-of-system transfer before the physical connection was built due to the community pressuring for concessions.

Maybe the popularity of the station is caused by the lack of express service? If I were at 47 Street and Lexington Avenue, I'd walk that one extra block for Grand Central–42 Street.

 

If that were true, the transfers to Crosstown-Jamaica lines and the Canarsie-New Lots Avenue lines would exist right now. If the MTA even cared at this moment, those stations would have out of system transfers at this moment.  

I'd like you to consider travel between these stations:

• Jamaica–179 Street ↔ Bowling Green

  Those transfers are going to waste your time one way or another. You're going to be on the local, or you're going to spend extra time transferring to an express.

  → to Whitehall Street–South Ferry or Rector Street

  …→ →

  …→ →

  …⟶

• 75 Avenue ↔ Bedford Park Boulevard–Lehman College

  Those kids living in Queens who need to get to Bronx Science High School knew what they were signing up for when the picked that school.

  ⟶

  …→ →

• Forest Hills–71 Avenue ↔ Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall

  To take the local to the express, or to take the express to the local… that is the question!

  →

  →

  ⟶

There are no winners.

 

Which bring me to my next point, not everything is going to be perfect. Just to add on to your mentioned transfers:

What if I want to go to Coney Island from Lefferts Blvd?

How about from Astoria Blvd to Jamaica? 

Or even the Museum of Natural History from Hunts Point?

Just to point out, when 59 Street got express service, of course it was to connect to the EE, which eventually was an extension of the N, then turned into the R, which put weekend service on QBL and gave Lex riders an easier connection to Queens. 51 Street as an express station seems unnecessary and unpopular, eating money the MTA never has. Even if riders are looking for direct express service to both lines, it won't hurt to make more than 2 transfers, especially on the weekends. And with that note, there is never gonna be a weekend where at least a few lines are not gonna be changing their routes. You want the R or need express service on QBL, live with what you got and find a way to solve your problem.

[Kamen Rider]

To your first point, no because the transfer between the Broadway BMT and the 6 already existed and was at crush load. There is a difference between expanding an existing transfer and building one that didn't exist.

[Wallyhorse]

 

This, I'm in agreement with. In fact, it should already be an express station. The 59 Street tunnel gets shut down for construction too often for it to be the only link to the Lexington Avenue express.

Exactly on this part.  The / transfer at 53rd (and possibly by the time this were done, also the at 55th/2nd) makes having 51st becoming an express stop worth it. 

[LTA1992]

But why do that when the station already lies between to already overcrowded express stations? If people from the or want the Lexington services, they can transfer to the services at Times Sqyuare or 3rth Street if they want a Lex Exp.

[AndrewJC]

Why are the Central Park West stations so deep and why hasn't the made them accessible for disabled people (i.e. escalator or elevator)?  The amount of stairs that one has to climb if you get off heading South is just insane.  I get off along 72nd or 81st and the amount of stairs is taxing even for me.  I can't imagine how elderly folks would do it with no escalator or elevator.

 

As several others have pointed out, the climb is only two flights, just about the same as at any station with a mezzanine above the platforms. The stations were laid out so that travelers in the predominant direction - boarding southbound trains and exiting from northbound trains - have the longer climb downward than upward.

 

There isn't unlimited funding available to make all stations ADA accessible tomorrow, so NYCT and the disabled community jointly developed a list of 100 key stations to be made accessible by 2020. Most of that work is done by now (more than is shown in the link, which is five years old), but there are still far more non-ADA stations than ADA stations.

 

 

Very strange... What would be the "disadvantage" of having it built normally, with one exit on the side of the park?

 

All of the traffic generators aside from the park itself are on the west side of the street.

 

The easiest way to make the station accessible would be through the museum, since the museum is already accessible, but the odds of that happening are zero.

 

The museum isn't open 24/7, and I highly doubt that the museum administration is interested in having the museum serve as a passageway for anybody entering and exiting the subway.

 

It has everything to do with the transfer and not the popularity of the station itself. The Lexington Avenue line is important enough that the MTA was willing to do a free transfer between it and the 63 Street line. Despite the obvious uses, it's something not done for the Crosstown and Jamaica lines nor the Canarsie and New Lots Avenue lines. The Crosstown and Flushing lines only got the out-of-system transfer before the physical connection was built due to the community pressuring for concessions.

 

There is one and only one reason for the out-of-system transfer at 63/Lex: the F used to have a direct transfer with the 6 at 53/Lex until it was rerouted to 63rd Street in 2001.

 

There was never an enclosed transfer between the Crosstown and Jamaica lines. There was never an enclosed transfer between the Canarsie and New Lots lines.

[YankeesPwnMets]

• 75 Avenue ↔ Bedford Park Boulevard–Lehman College

  Those kids living in Queens who need to get to Bronx Science High School knew what they were signing up for when the picked that school.

  ⟶

  …→ →

Just a few notes about Bronx Science:

A. Most kids at Bronx Science live along the Flushing line and most of them take the to Queensboro, transfer to the and then transfer to the . They do the same route in reverse when going home.

B. You have the option of taking the to 47th-50th and the to Bedford Park, which is only one block away from the Bedford Park station. The Bx10, Bx26 and Bx28 buses make it easy to get to school from either the or lines

C. A majority of Queens students at Bx Sci take private school buses anyways.

[CenSin]

If that were true, the transfers to Crosstown-Jamaica lines and the Canarsie-New Lots Avenue lines would exist right now. If the MTA even cared at this moment, those stations would have out of system transfers at this moment.

My post that you quoted still applies exactly as I wrote it:

 

The Lexington Avenue line is important enough that the MTA was willing to do a free transfer between it and the 63 Street line.

It's an important transfer. And then there's this:

 

There is one and only one reason for the out-of-system transfer at 63/Lex: the F used to have a direct transfer with the 6 at 53/Lex until it was rerouted to 63rd Street in 2001.

 

There was never an enclosed transfer between the Crosstown and Jamaica lines. There was never an enclosed transfer between the Canarsie and New Lots lines.

I don't agree that it's the only reason, but one of the few.

 

 

Which bring me to my next point, not everything is going to be perfect. Just to add on to your mentioned transfers:

Not everything is. I don't contest that. But, as I understand it, building a pair of express platforms underneath 51 Street would still be far easier than building the new lines that would solve the other examples you point out. It would also be more heavily utilized. And that makes it a target for discussion.

 

 

What if I want to go to Coney Island from Lefferts Blvd?

→

 

 

How about from Astoria Blvd to Jamaica?

→ →

Triboro Rx→…

 

 

Or even the Museum of Natural History from Hunts Point?

→

…→ →

…→125 Street crosstown line→

 

All those edge cases you mentioned are nowhere near the popularity of the examples I gave.

 

 

51 Street as an express station seems unnecessary and unpopular, eating money the MTA never has. Even if riders are looking for direct express service to both lines, it won't hurt to make more than 2 transfers, especially on the weekends. And with that note, there is never gonna be a weekend where at least a few lines are not gonna be changing their routes. You want the R or need express service on QBL, live with what you got and find a way to solve your problem.

It's pretty much written in the sky that the MTA has no money. And if you thought a 51 Street express station would be a waste of money look no further than the MTA's current projects. Among the money pits are the Flushing extension (Mayor Bloomberg's pet project) and Fulton Center; the MTA balked at the strings tied to the funds for Fulton Center, but Congress basically said that the money could not be diverted to more useful projects.

 

The 51 Street conversion would still be a better use of funds than either of those two projects. And it's ludicrous to say that a transfer to the Lexington Avenue expresses from the 53 Street routes would be unpopular when both are heavily trafficked corridors.

 

 

Exactly on this part. The / transfer at 53rd (and possibly by the time this were done, also the at 55th/2nd) makes having 51st becoming an express stop worth it.

Nobody in their right mind would use that transfer to get from 2 Avenue to the Lexington Avenue express. It could be a part of the package when the connection is constructed, but it will see nearly 0 utilization. The primary purpose would be to connect the 55 Street station with the Lexington Avenue/53 Street station, whose platforms end less than a block away from 2 Avenue. A transfer from 55 Street to 51 Street, however, would require a 2 avenue and 1 street walk at a minimum.

 

 

But why do that when the station already lies between to already overcrowded express stations? If people from the or want the Lexington services, they can transfer to the services at Times Sqyuare or 3rth Street if they want a Lex Exp.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but Times Square is a crappy transfer point for those coming off the IND lines and the examples you mention turn out to be circuitous or require more than 1 transfer.

[CenSin]

Just a few notes about Bronx Science:

A. Most kids at Bronx Science live along the Flushing line and most of them take the to Queensboro, transfer to the and then transfer to the . They do the same route in reverse when going home.

Meh. I work with kids from there and I guess I got the Forest Hills/Rego Park group.

 

 

B. You have the option of taking the to 47th-50th and the to Bedford Park, which is only one block away from the Bedford Park station. The Bx10, Bx26 and Bx28 buses make it easy to get to school from either the or lines

The station and the are about evenly matched. Depending on which exits you use, they're the same distance from the school. But the makes a direct run up there taking about 28~30 minutes from Grand Central; the from Rockefeller Center takes about 35 minutes and the takes about 40 minutes. It's not much difference, so it really boils down to where in Queens one is coming from. If it takes too much work to get to the due to poor IND/IRT connections, then the is a viable option.

 

 

C. A majority of Queens students at Bx Sci take private school buses anyways.

And my sister avoids that Coney Island/Ozone Park trip between work and home by taking the car.

[MysteriousBtrain]

My post that you quoted still applies exactly as I wrote it.

Imma point out what you said in your own words:

It has everything to do with the transfer and not the popularity of the station itself.

You just told us that the has to connect to the at Hewes Street/Broadway and the has to connect to the at Junius Street/Livonia Avenue at all costs. They are not popular stations, but they absolutely need to find a way to connect an in system transfer to these stations, no matter the cost. Besides cross-platform transfers and lines like Archer Avenue, why are lines usually connecting to each other? Not just because the mta wanted to put them there for easier connections, but because they are at a busy intersection or neighborhood that sees a lot of ridership. For example:

The PABT to Times Square (connects the and is a busy area)

7 Avenue-14 Street to 6 Avenue-14 Street (connects the and PATH, one of the only ways to reach New Jersey without a car)

Atlantic Avenue on the (connects the and LIRR, which is one of the few areas to catch it in Brooklyn, not to mention the mall and the freshly built Barclays Center, as well as being near Downtown Brooklyn.)

These connections would not exist if these areas were not popular to begin with.

[bobtehpanda]

This, I'm in agreement with. In fact, it should already be an express station. The 59 Street tunnel gets shut down for construction too often for it to be the only link to the Lexington Avenue express.

 

 

It's pretty much written in the sky that the MTA has no money. And if you thought a 51 Street express station would be a waste of money look no further than the MTA's current projects. Among the money pits are the Flushing extension (Mayor Bloomberg's pet project) and Fulton Center; the MTA balked at the strings tied to the funds for Fulton Center, but Congress basically said that the money could not be diverted to more useful projects.

 

The 51 Street conversion would still be a better use of funds than either of those two projects. And it's ludicrous to say that a transfer to the Lexington Avenue expresses from the 53 Street routes would be unpopular when both are heavily trafficked corridors.

 

The problem is that 51 St express would be way too popular, especially during the peak when the Lex has a hard enough time as it is. It manages congestion the same way that the setup with Woodside/Jackson Heights does on the , by splitting two very large groups of riders onto separate lines instead of having them mash together. Lex riders who want Astoria/Flushing can take the express; those who want Queens Blvd can take the local. If you make 51 an express, not only does it cut into the time savings of the express, but that just reduces incentives to take the .

[CenSin]

Imma point out what you said in your own words:

It has everything to do with the transfer and not the popularity of the station itself.

 

The station itself need not be popular. The Lexington Avenue line as a whole is popular and heavily trafficked. That's why the transfer is important since the local doesn't have the same reach that the expresses have.

 

 

You just told us that the has to connect to the at Hewes Street/Broadway and the has to connect to the at Junius Street/Livonia Avenue at all costs. They are not popular stations, but they absolutely need to find a way to connect an in system transfer to these stations, no matter the cost.

"At all costs?" Did I really say that?

 

Those examples were mentioned in contrast to the out-of-system transfer between 59 Street and Lexington Avenue/63 Street.

 

Quoted with all the context:

 

It has everything to do with the transfer and not the popularity of the station itself. The Lexington Avenue line is important enough that the MTA was willing to do a free transfer between it and the 63 Street line. Despite the obvious uses, it's something not done for the Crosstown and Jamaica lines nor the Canarsie and New Lots Avenue lines. The Crosstown and Flushing lines only got the out-of-system transfer before the physical connection was built due to the community pressuring for concessions.

Besides cross-platform transfers and lines like Archer Avenue, why are lines usually connecting to each other? Not just because the mta wanted to put them there for easier connections, but because they are at a busy intersection or neighborhood that sees a lot of ridership. For example:

Lexington Avenue/59 Street is ranked 8^th busiest station. Ridership grew 3.2% from 2012 to 2013.

Lexington Avenue/53 Street is ranked 10^th busiest station. Ridership grew 5.2% from 2013 to 2013.

System-wide ridership growth during the same period was an average of 3.2%.

 

See for yourself: http://web.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/ridership_sub_annual.htm

 

 

The PABT to Times Square (connects the and is a busy area)

That's a no-brainer. Times Square is the busiest station in the system owing to the numerous lines that pass through the area. It would be a travesty to leave the lines unconnected. But the Port Authority Bus Terminal plays no role in the connection, because it's not even within the subway's fare control; the free transfer between subway lines makes no difference.

 

 

7 Avenue-14 Street to 6 Avenue-14 Street (connects the and PATH, one of the only ways to reach New Jersey without a car)

This passageway was built because:

• It's the only connection between the 7 Avenue line and the .
• It's the only connection between the 7 Avenue line and the , despite the obvious drawbacks of such a long connection.

PATH is outside of the subway's fare control, so it wouldn't be any different than walking to the PATH station along the street, and not a reason to build a transfer.

 

 

Atlantic Avenue on the (connects the and LIRR, which is one of the few areas to catch it in Brooklyn, not to mention the mall and the freshly built Barclays Center, as well as being near Downtown Brooklyn.)

These connections would not exist if these areas were not popular to begin with.

Yet, the Fulton Street line isn't connected to the complex.

 

 

 

 

The problem is that 51 St express would be way too popular, especially during the peak when the Lex has a hard enough time as it is. It manages congestion the same way that the setup with Woodside/Jackson Heights does on the , by splitting two very large groups of riders onto separate lines instead of having them mash together. Lex riders who want Astoria/Flushing can take the express; those who want Queens Blvd can take the local. If you make 51 an express, not only does it cut into the time savings of the express, but that just reduces incentives to take the .

The Flushing line isn't a good example since there's no functional difference between the express and local other than speed. The Flushing express and local both go to the same place with all of the stations served by the express also served by the local. It's not true of the Lexington expresses and local. The turns around at Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall, while the and skip many of the most popular stations. Most people who need to get beyond Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall crowd the platform at Grand Central–42 Street.

 

The express platforms at 59 Street was built specifically after it was observed that the crowding conditions from transferring passengers was too much at Grand Central–42 Street and that the was being overwhelmed at 59 Street itself. In the 1959 transit authority chair's own words: "Providing this rapidly growing section of the city with subway express service is only one of the benefits, … It will greatly reduce crowding at Grand Central. It will take a good deal of the load from the Grand Central-Times Square shuttle. For many it will eliminate the bother of transferring. For others it will make the transferring easier and faster."

 

More illustrative of proper passenger distribution would be the fact that the stops at all of the popular stops that the and don't:

 

#18 Canal Street

#24 Bleecker Street

#28 77 Street

#30 68 Street–Hunter College

#31 33 Street

#34 23 Street

The proper way to distribute passengers would be to put them on the right trains in the first place, minimizing passenger movement due to transfers across the platform or to different platforms. 59 Street does it right by providing separate platforms for the locals and expresses. Anyone who doesn't need the express waits on the local platform, segregating traffic. The same would apply at 51 Street.

[MysteriousBtrain]

The station itself need not be popular. The Lexington Avenue line as a whole is popular and heavily trafficked. That's why the transfer is important since the local doesn't have the same reach that the expresses have.

 

"At all costs?" Did I really say that?

 

Those examples were mentioned in contrast to the out-of-system transfer between 59 Street and Lexington Avenue/63 Street.

 

Quoted with all the context:

Lexington Avenue/59 Street is ranked 8^th busiest station. Ridership grew 3.2% from 2012 to 2013.

Lexington Avenue/53 Street is ranked 10^th busiest station. Ridership grew 5.2% from 2013 to 2013.

System-wide ridership growth during the same period was an average of 3.2%.

 

See for yourself: http://web.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/ridership_sub_annual.htm

 

That's a no-brainer. Times Square is the busiest station in the system owing to the numerous lines that pass through the area. It would be a travesty to leave the lines unconnected. But the Port Authority Bus Terminal plays no role in the connection, because it's not even within the subway's fare control; the free transfer between subway lines makes no difference.

 

This passageway was built because:

• It's the only connection between the 7 Avenue line and the .
• It's the only connection between the 7 Avenue line and the , despite the obvious drawbacks of such a long connection.

PATH is outside of the subway's fare control, so it wouldn't be any different than walking to the PATH station along the street, and not a reason to build a transfer.

 

Yet, the Fulton Street line isn't connected to the complex.

 

 

 

The Flushing line isn't a good example since there's no functional difference between the express and local other than speed. The Flushing express and local both go to the same place with all of the stations served by the express also served by the local. It's not true of the Lexington expresses and local. The turns around at Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall, while the and skip many of the most popular stations. Most people who need to get beyond Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall crowd the platform at Grand Central–42 Street.

 

The express platforms at 59 Street was built specifically after it was observed that the crowding conditions from transferring passengers was too much at Grand Central–42 Street and that the was being overwhelmed at 59 Street itself. In the 1959 transit authority chair's own words: "Providing this rapidly growing section of the city with subway express service is only one of the benefits, … It will greatly reduce crowding at Grand Central. It will take a good deal of the load from the Grand Central-Times Square shuttle. For many it will eliminate the bother of transferring. For others it will make the transferring easier and faster."

 

More illustrative of proper passenger distribution would be the fact that the stops at all of the popular stops that the and don't:

 

 

 

#18 Canal Street

#24 Bleecker Street

#28 77 Street

#30 68 Street–Hunter College

#31 33 Street

#34 23 Street

The proper way to distribute passengers would be to put them on the right trains in the first place, minimizing passenger movement due to transfers across the platform or to different platforms. 59 Street does it right by providing separate platforms for the locals and expresses. Anyone who doesn't need the express waits on the local platform, segregating traffic. The same would apply at 51 Street.

Even if 51 Street is all that popular and it was converted into an express station, it would still be a bad idea as again, the and are slow enough and have enough problems to deal with. Lex is a lot busier than every other agency that operates a subway in the U.S., and therefore if this station is built, these 2 expresses would be piling up with a lot of riders and the express would be so crowded, they would be forced to take the anyway, which is also suffering from overcrowding.

[CenSin]

Even if 51 Street is all that popular and it was converted into an express station, it would still be a bad idea as again, the and are slow enough and have enough problems to deal with. Lex is a lot busier than every other agency that operates a subway in the U.S., and therefore if this station is built, these 2 expresses would be piling up with a lot of riders and the express would be so crowded,

Yes. They would be piling up with a lot of riders, but they would also be the same riders crowding the platforms at Grand Central–42 Street to make the cross-platform transfer. Remember that the 59 Street station was outfitted with express platforms also to give express riders another option going crosstown to the west side instead of crowding the shuttle to Times Square. These shuttle crowds would, in turn, crowd Times Square as they transferred to the north-south lines on the west side. The passageways between the Lexington Avenue express platforms and the Broadway platform are narrow, and see a lot of passenger flow problems due to people transferring both to and from the express. Providing another such station at 51 Street would ease the problem at 59 Street. The , , and are all crowded and should share the burden.

 

 

they would be forced to take the anyway, which is also suffering from overcrowding.

They would take the if they needed 33 Street, 28 Street, 23 Street, Astor Place, Bleecker Street, Spring Street, or Canal Street. For stations south of Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall, they'd have to take the or anyway. If they can't get the or at 51 Street, they'll do it at Grand Central–42 Street, or at 14 Street–Union Square, or at Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall. My point is, this is a problem that's different from the problem of passenger distribution between the and . One does not get on the or as an alternative to the , because they serve different purposes. The 51 Street conversion to an express station would give and passengers the choice between the two purposes.

[itmaybeokay]

Well this got way off topic...

 

That's actually not true at all. There's a length limit for how long an ADA-accessible ramp can be, so that wheelchair-bound people don't end up speeding into the tracks. It's why the Port Authority-Times Sq passageway is not accessible.

 

The easiest way to make the station accessible would be through the museum, since the museum is already accessible, but the odds of that happening are zero.

 

In any event, there is actually a connection between the uptown platform and the lower level of the museum - outside fare control of course. I was at that station friday, and that entrance to the museum is closed but there is an at-grade connection. 

[Trainmaster5]

Maybe I'm missing something here ? Where ,or better still how, would this express station at 51 St/ Lex be constructed ? IIRC the and drop below the existing IND station as it is between GC and 59th Lexington. The 59th St Lex express station was built level (flat) below the BMT station. The point where the , pass below the IND line at 53rd St is at an angle between 59th St and Grand Central stops. I can't see the building a sloped station at that location. Enlighten me if I'm overlooking something. Meanwhile back to the CPW question. Carry on.

[RailRunRob]

Maybe I'm missing something here ? Where ,or better still how, would this express station at 51 St/ Lex be constructed ? IIRC the and drop below the existing IND station as it is between GC and 59th Lexington. The 59th St Lex express station was built level (flat) below the BMT station. The point where the , pass below the IND line at 53rd St is at an angle between 59th St and Grand Central stops. I can't see the building a sloped station at that location. Enlighten me if I'm overlooking something. Meanwhile back to the CPW question. Carry on.

Exactly I was just thinking the same thing before I got to your post.

[CenSin]

Maybe I'm missing something here ? Where ,or better still how, would this express station at 51 St/ Lex be constructed ? IIRC the and drop below the existing IND station as it is between GC and 59th Lexington. The 59th St Lex express station was built level (flat) below the BMT station. The point where the , pass below the IND line at 53rd St is at an angle between 59th St and Grand Central stops. I can't see the building a sloped station at that location. Enlighten me if I'm overlooking something. Meanwhile back to the CPW question. Carry on.

Well, I stand corrected. I read from some forgotten source that the Lexington Avenue express tunnels north of Grand Central were designed with gentle vertical curves (read as: relatively flat tunnels) to keep trains moving at the highest possible speed. This diagram I found pretty much debunks that:

As you can see, the descent begins at 50 Street and ends somewhere just north of 54 Street. That pretty much precludes the installation of platforms anywhere near the vicinity of the existing 51 Street station. It may be technically possible, but not a good idea seeing how all the existing stations are on relatively flat sections.

 

Nevertheless, under the assumption of feasibility in some alternate reality, I still think it would have been a good idea.

 

 

I also found this while sleuthing:

[Grand Concourse]

51st should not have an express stop. The QB riders should be using the local R line if they want a direct transfer to the Lexington express lines. If you have an express stop at 51st, then all you do is create overcrowded E train riders cramming onto the 4/5 at that stop and further adding to the delays with people waiting to get on. At least forcing people to take a local to express or express to local in a way splits or cuts down the direct express to express transfer. imo. That plus just adding the platform isn't going to solve the issue for the 6, it just creates more problems for an already overcrowded 4/5 that can't handle any more riders to begin with not to mention another busy station. This is not even talking about the expense to build new platforms and escalators/elevators for the ada laws.

[Grand Concourse]

lol... This is true to an extent, but the M10 is even worse.

Yes it is, but it's not like the mta has the money to build elevators at every station. The bus with the capability to carry wc riders is the 'cheaper' solution for the mta. Of course it's not fast, but it's the bus, the access-a-ride, or a taxi.

 

As for the CPW stations, i don't think they are not that deep. I used to take the 4/5 at the 86th-lexington av stop daily and just had to put up with it.

=

As far as 63rd-Lex, I used that station last december and the escalators were working.

That Port Authority - Times Square ramp is far too steep for normal people too. You have to pick up your suitcases sometimes because they roll too fast.

Yes, I totally agree. I couldn't take that steep ramp anymore. Not to mention if I needed the 8th av line going south, I'd just take the 7 to 5th av and take the 6th av lines to W4th. And if going north, I'd take the 1 to 59th and transfer there.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

 

Yes it is, but it's not like the mta has the money to build elevators at every station. The bus with the capability to carry wc riders is the 'cheaper' solution for the mta. Of course it's not fast, but it's the bus, the access-a-ride, or a taxi.

 

As for the CPW stations, i don't think they are not that deep. I used to take the 4/5 at the 86th-lexington av stop daily and just had to put up with it.

=

As far as 63rd-Lex, I used that station last december and the escalators were working.

Yes, I totally agree. I couldn't take that steep ramp anymore. Not to mention if I needed the 8th av line going south, I'd just take the 7 to 5th av and take the 6th av lines to W4th. And if going north, I'd take the 1 to 59th and transfer there.

 

I always wondered why 86th street on the line had the trains on two different levels? Same question about 59th street.  To some extent I think it leads to uneven loads.

[CenSin]

I always wondered why 86th street on the line had the trains on two different levels? Same question about 59th street.  To some extent I think it leads to uneven loads.

↴

 

 

Lexington Avenue is a narrow avenue if you've ever been on it. When they built it, they had only the choice of building 2 levels for 4 tracks. And as to where the local tracks should be, the decision was easy: build the local tracks on the upper level so the stations wouldn't be so deep. Central Park West stations had one more restriction—no platforms on the park side, and hence the double-decked structure with stacked platforms. But I'm still under the impression that even Central Park West could have been made like the Lexington Avenue line without disturbing the park since it's much wider than Lexington Avenue. The real reason could be as simple as not wanting to build a mezzanine level since the Lexington Avenue-style layout would necessitate a mezzanine to avoid building on the park side.

 

[Grand Concourse]

I always wondered why 86th street on the line had the trains on two different levels? Same question about 59th street.  To some extent I think it leads to uneven loads.

Park Av south was the road the original line went under [before it shifted west via what is now the GC shuttle to continue up the Broadway IRT], but when it gets to 42nd and north, the line shifts over to Lexington Av and [as censin explained] why it becomes so narrow with the need to stack the tunnels over each other.

[N6 Limited]

Lexington Avenue is a narrow avenue if you've ever been on it. When they built it, they had only the choice of building 2 levels for 4 tracks. And as to where the local tracks should be, the decision was easy: build the local tracks on the upper level so the stations wouldn't be so deep. Central Park West stations had one more restriction—no platforms on the park side, and hence the double-decked structure with stacked platforms. But I'm still under the impression that even Central Park West could have been made like the Lexington Avenue line without disturbing the park since it's much wider than Lexington Avenue. The real reason could be as simple as not wanting to build a mezzanine level since the Lexington Avenue-style layout would necessitate a mezzanine to avoid building on the park side.

 

 

Park Av south was the road the original line went under [before it shifted west via what is now the GC shuttle to continue up the Broadway IRT], but when it gets to 42nd and north, the line shifts over to Lexington Av and [as censin explained] why it becomes so narrow with the need to stack the tunnels over each other.

 

The explanation is logical but Fulton Street is narrower and has 4 tracks to IND specs on the same level.