Gorgor Posted January 14, 2011 Share #1 Posted January 14, 2011 Got a few questions about the line that have been bugging me for a while. Why is it that the tracks at 33rd street are much lower than the ? Why the platforms at some stations south of 14th so offset? How was the Bowling Green station originally intended to be used and why is it used like it is today? At 59th street the recording doesn't announce anything right after the doors open, but right before they close it's always like "This is a Bronx bound 6 train - Stand clear of the closing doors please." Why? In the morning do they ever short turn trains? Once I actually got an end seat on a or train at 86th. Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer some of these questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R62A 1991 Posted January 14, 2011 Share #2 Posted January 14, 2011 About 59th St: The announcement regarding the OOS transfer to Lex-63rd is so long that if the conductor doesn't wait to open the doors before it is finished completely, then perhaps they need to manually "push" the train forward on the system. Please correct this if it is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
553 Bridgeton Posted January 14, 2011 Share #3 Posted January 14, 2011 & (5)s are short turned at Bowling Green because Eastern Parkway cant handle all of those trains. Its not many (4)s that short turn at Green, however when it does, it eases things up. If you had every going to Brooklyn, log jams would be every second of the day. "This is a Bronx Boubd 6 Local train, Stand clear of the closing doors please." C/R rushing through, glitch ect ect. http://www.nycsubway.org is your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forest Glen Posted January 14, 2011 Share #4 Posted January 14, 2011 Got a few questions about the line that have been bugging me for a while. Why is it that the tracks at 33rd street are much lower than the ? I think it is because they run under the Park Avenue Tunnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgor Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share #5 Posted January 14, 2011 & (5)s are short turned at Bowling Green because Eastern Parkway cant handle all of those trains. Its not many (4)s that short turn at Green, however when it does, it eases things up. If you had every going to Brooklyn, log jams would be every second of the day. "This is a Bronx Boubd 6 Local train, Stand clear of the closing doors please." C/R rushing through, glitch ect ect. http://www.nycsubway.org is your friend. Oh yeah i know that they short turn trains there, I meant specifically the platform layout and why there's an island and a side platform as opposed to just an island or two side platforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadcruiser1 Posted January 14, 2011 Share #6 Posted January 14, 2011 Wait the only reason why the , and runs in a lower level from the is because there was no room there to dig a four tracked local express line. So they had to dig a second level for express service, and keep the local on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rr4567 Posted January 14, 2011 Share #7 Posted January 14, 2011 How was the Bowling Green station originally intended to be used and why is it used like it is today? Nothing really has changed about Bowling Green - that unused platform is the old shuttle platform that took people to the inner loop of the old South Ferry station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
553 Bridgeton Posted January 14, 2011 Share #8 Posted January 14, 2011 Oh yeah i know that they short turn trains there, I meant specifically the platform layout and why there's an island and a side platform as opposed to just an island or two side platforms. Bowling green used to offer shuttle service to South Ferry. Bowling Green Layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INDman Posted January 14, 2011 Share #9 Posted January 14, 2011 Wait the only reason why the , and runs in a lower level from the is because there was no room there to dig a four tracked local express line. So they had to dig a second level for express service, and keep the local on top. Wrong. He asked why the express tracks are lower then the local tracks at 33rd St. That are is still 4 tracks across with a station so room was not an issue. U had heard that it was done to reduce the noise on the platform as an express goes by, not not sure if the Park Av tunnel as anything to go with it because the ceiling doesn't get lower. Why is it that the tracks at 33rd street are much lower than the ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted January 14, 2011 Share #10 Posted January 14, 2011 Oh yeah i know that they short turn trains there, I meant specifically the platform layout and why there's an island and a side platform as opposed to just an island or two side platforms. I believe the island platform is part of the original configuration but the viewable n/b side platform was added because of overcrowding and the dangerous conditions it caused. Try to imagine the island platform serving northbound and southbound trains, especially during rush hours. You also had the short non-viewable platform on the south end of the station serving the Bowling Green-South Ferry shuttle which was originally reached by use of the center island and stairs which also added to the crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoodciti Posted January 14, 2011 Share #11 Posted January 14, 2011 I think it is because they run under the Park Avenue Tunnel. yea the Express tracks run under what once was part on the New York and Harlem railroad open cut that ran as far south as 27th street I believe. When Grand Central was built it was converted to horsecars then its was covered and a station was put inside for conduit cars at 38th street. the subway was built under it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1447 Posted January 14, 2011 Share #12 Posted January 14, 2011 About 59th St: The announcement regarding the OOS transfer to Lex-63rd is so long that if the conductor doesn't wait to open the doors before it is finished completely, then perhaps they need to manually "push" the train forward on the system. Please correct this if it is wrong. There are a few t/os out there that wait for the announcement to complete then opens the door and the announcement goes in. Wrong. He asked why the express tracks are lower then the local tracks at 33rd St. That are is still 4 tracks across with a station so room was not an issue. U had heard that it was done to reduce the noise on the platform as an express goes by, not not sure if the Park Av tunnel as anything to go with it because the ceiling doesn't get lower. Yep it has to do with that, as the Park Avenue South Tunnel is in the center position with the Express track. Idk why where 91st Street Station on the IRT Broadway is lowered for the Exp same for Houston Street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1447 Posted January 14, 2011 Share #13 Posted January 14, 2011 Double post mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova RTS 9147 Posted January 14, 2011 Share #14 Posted January 14, 2011 Got a few questions about the line that have been bugging me for a while. I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my ability (the ones that weren't answered). Why is it that the tracks at 33rd street are much lower than the ? According to NYCsubway.org, the 28th Street local tracks are higher to facilitate better braking. I suspect the same for 33rd Street since the express tracks don't descend/ascend. How was the Bowling Green station originally intended to be used and why is it used like it is today? It was originally an island platform station (no shuttle platform). The shuttle platform came later on when regular trains continued into Brooklyn. The mini platform was used to continue providing service to South Ferry (this was before the West Side IRT was completed). The current northbound platform came in the 70s during station renovations to help the crowding situation that developed at the station. I don't know about the Union Square offset, but I suspect it has something to do with the platform extension that went on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeGerald Posted January 14, 2011 Share #15 Posted January 14, 2011 The Bowling Green station was originally laid out with a long platform for what would become the #4 and #5 lines, and then later, a short platform for the South Ferry Shuttle. Generally the main trains that stopped there were express trains (for most of its history Lexington Avenue express trains), without much need to differentiate them. When the line was constructed as an extension of the original IRT subway circa 1905, it was felt that half of the express service would go to South Ferry, and the other half would travel to/from Brooklyn, where the original Brooklyn terminal was Atlantic Avenue (the center platform). However, early on the traffic to/from Brooklyn required much more service, and thus the South Ferry Shuttle platform was built with an underpass. The track that was used for the South Ferry Shuttle was originally a layup/by-pass track for the loop terminal, and all trains used the outer platform (later used by the #1 train for a long time). When that station was converted to be used by westside local trains before or about 1918, during the expansion of the westside IRT lines, the local trains used the outer platform (now the #1 long-time home), and openings in the wall for the layup/by-pass track were created. However the openings were placed at the center car door position, because the trains at that time could control whether the outer doors, or the center door, or both sets of doors would open at a station. Rebuilding the inner loop platform to a more open layout similar to all of the other stations would be an engineering nightmare, with the Ferry Terminal building and street practically on top of the station. The South Ferry station for what would later become the #1 line, and for the Ferry Shuttle line were separate stations with separate entrances and fare-controls. (Before the mid-1950's westside local trains came from both 137th Street-City College, and from 145th Street-Lenox Avenue.) The head-house at Battery Park was the original (built in 1905) and only entrance/exit to the station. Both Brooklyn bound and Manhattan bound #4 and #5 trains used the long center platform. There was a stairwell and passageway from the center platform that lead to the South Ferry Shuttle platform. In some of the early years when there were more conductors, and/or the trains were shorter - the doors of cars that met the shuttle platform of Brooklyn bound trains would open - allowing riders to enter/exit the train from both sides. The South Ferry Shuttle platform in the early years used a type of subway car where only the center doors of the train opened - in order to meet the dedicated openings in the platform wall at the South Ferry shuttle station. Since the cars then used for the Lexington Avenue express trains had similar door controls it was not a problem. The inner loop had platform openings to serve a whole 10-car train, however after the 1950's such cars were being phased out of usage in the subway. As the 1950's progressed, as old and older subway were removed, and newer cars replaced them (the cars that would later be called "Red-birds"), a special train was converted for use by the South Ferry Shuttle. After the 1950-60's when #5, and #6 trains ran to/from South Ferry during the late nights and weekends, they used the outer platform that the #1 train used, creating a rare transfer point between eastside and westside trains. On the outer platform at South Ferry, the whole train could be berthed when six car trains were used - the old standard length for a local station. After the 1950's and later when 10 car trains became the standard, only the first half of the train would open in the station. In subway cars from the 1950's onward, all of the doors in a subway car opened upon command, the conductor could not direct what doors to open or close as before. As the business district of lower Manhattan grew, and the elevated lines (2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Avenues) no longer traveled to downtown - usage of the Bowling Green station grew. As all IRT trains and stations were lengthened (to a standard 10-car length) in the 1940-50's, crowding at the Bowling Green station grew. The original head-house still the only entrance and exit had to contend with the crowds. The station stayed essentially the same until the 1970's, when an additional platform was added to the station to be used by uptown #4 and #5 trains. This platform was built about a subway car forward of the original platform - either to help clear the switch from South Ferry, or to maintain a distinction between the platforms. Because the station is very near the surface of the street, there was no place to build a mezzanine level above the uptown and Brooklyn bound tracks, or to reach the South Ferry Shuttle platform. The mezzanine level was placed under the tracks and platforms, in addition three new station entrances were created that led directly to the mezzanine level with escalators and stairways connecting the platforms. The uptown platform was given its own direct entrance, which also served as an entrance to the mezzanine level. This entrance just south of Bowling Green Park, creating a plaza for the Customs House, now a museum. In keeping with the design standards of the time, a red-orange tile was used through out the station, with never modern seating, enclosed florescent lighting, modern signage and artwork. Over the years - elevators were added to the platforms and street, a new glass topped entrance was installed for the main uptown entrance. Over the years decisions about the placement of the "main token booth" the one that is open 24-7-365 have changed -- some years it was the lower mezzanine level booth, and some years on the uptown platform. On the lower mezzanine level - the token booth has moved about the floor over time, and was recently removed entirely. Some years the original entrance would be manned, not-manned but closed off-hours, and now un-attended but open at all times. The platform that was the original central platform seems extended about a subway car length from the uptown platform (actually the uptown platform was built in the 1970's) much later than the original. A black metal fence was installed on the platform edge so that train conductors would not open the doors on the "wrong side" anymore. In the early years after the renovation of the station this black fence extended only about half-way up the platform, some time in the last decade this fence was extended the length of the platform. The walkway space on the center platform has been encroached upon by stairways, ramps, elevators, escalators, seating, subway bulletin boards, and other furniture over the decades. Since the original head-house remains as an entrance/exit - plenty of riders and tourists using it still continue to ask riders and station staff how to access the uptown trains. There is a station dispatcher's office with a track switch machine at the south end of the center platform which controls the access to the station, as well as the actions of the South Ferry station terminal. In the 1970's the South Ferry Shuttle was an operating feature of the subway system, and thus the renovated station included a new shuttle platform and stairway. About 1977 just as the renovation work was 98% complete on the whole station, the MTA announced that the South Ferry Shuttle would no longer run. Thus the shuttle platform was completed but would never see passenger service. Due to the construction work affecting the ferry shuttle service, and the nearness of the Bowling Green station to the Whitehall Ferry Terminal, many ferry riders simply walked the distance. Usually both #4 and #5 trains operated to Brooklyn during the weekdays, often using Atlantic Avenue as their mid-day terminal (extended to Utica or Flatbush Avenue rush hours, nights, etc.) After the ferry shuttle was discontinued, the #5 line during the mid-day, and nights/weekends began to use the inner loop track at South Ferry as a berthing place, with Bowling Green as its last stop. The South Ferry Shuttle platform was closed to the public, and its street entrances removed. I hope that this history helps to answer your question. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted January 14, 2011 Share #16 Posted January 14, 2011 Wirelessly posted via (BlackBerry8520/4.6.1.259 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100) I got the answer for the platform length question... The stations that are offset are like that because they were lengthened. The spot where platforms are face to face are the original 1904 platforms. In the 50's (around the same time Bowling Green was extended) the other platforms was extended, but they weren't extended in the same direction cuz the stations would all be too close to each other. That's also why Worth & 18 Sts were closed. At Union Sq, the section on the straight part is generally the original station. You can see the old side platforms there as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asidrane Posted January 14, 2011 Share #17 Posted January 14, 2011 Wirelessly posted via (BlackBerry8520/4.6.1.259 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100) I got the answer for the platform length question... The stations that are offset are like that because they were lengthened. The spot where platforms are face to face are the original 1904 platforms. In the 50's (around the same time Bowling Green was extended) the other platforms was extended, but they weren't extended in the same direction cuz the stations would all be too close to each other. That's also why Worth & 18 Sts were closed. At Union Sq, the section on the straight part is generally the original station. You can see the old side platforms there as well The thought the platforms were extended in the direction that would be easiest (not on a curve) and that is why they do not match up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted January 14, 2011 Share #18 Posted January 14, 2011 Wirelessly posted via (BlackBerry8520/4.6.1.259 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100) That too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgor Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share #19 Posted January 15, 2011 Wow thanks a lot for answering some of my questions guys! Just one that still hasn't been answered yet: In the morning do they ever short turn trains? Once I actually got an end seat on a or train at 86th. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTimer Posted January 15, 2011 Share #20 Posted January 15, 2011 Wait the only reason why the , and runs in a lower level from the is because there was no room there to dig a four tracked local express line. So they had to dig a second level for express service, and keep the local on top. He meant at 33rd st specifically, where 2 and 3 express tracks at the north end are about 3-4 feet below the 1/4 local tracks. They even out at the south end, and in the tunnel between 33rd and GC. Based on a couple picks ago, there were still a pair of (5)s that turn at Bowling Green (both out of 238). There used to be one that turned there too and went uptown at I believe 0912 but I'm not sure anymore, I think they all go through now. Its the (5)s that really plug up the junction cause all SB local traffic has to stop as well and wait for the to go over the switches into President. The (4)'s can just stack there on the express track and wait for room at Utica. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EE Broadway Local Posted January 15, 2011 Share #21 Posted January 15, 2011 An oddity about Lexington Avenue: north of 59th Street, stations are 68th Street and 77th Street. While this provides for a even nine block spacing - just under half a mile (59th, 68th, 77th, 86th), any ideas why the stations weren't placed at East 66th, East 72d and East 79th Streets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgor Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share #22 Posted January 15, 2011 He meant at 33rd st specifically, where 2 and 3 express tracks at the north end are about 3-4 feet below the 1/4 local tracks. They even out at the south end, and in the tunnel between 33rd and GC. Based on a couple picks ago, there were still a pair of (5)s that turn at Bowling Green (both out of 238). There used to be one that turned there too and went uptown at I believe 0912 but I'm not sure anymore, I think they all go through now. Its the (5)s that really plug up the junction cause all SB local traffic has to stop as well and wait for the to go over the switches into President. The (4)'s can just stack there on the express track and wait for room at Utica. Oh sorry I meant that I get a downtown train that's almost empty so I was wondering if they short turn any trains heading downtown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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