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Petition started to restore lost bus service in Mid and Southern Brooklyn


Via Garibaldi 8

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There is a difference between eliminating a route at all times except rush hours (the B4) and eliminating a route at night when it doesn't meet specified (and publicized) guidelines (B31 at night)

 

And Sheepshead Bay isn't "affluent". The average household there makes about $50,000 per year, which is definitely middle class, but not "affluent" (not to mention that a neighborhood can't be middle class and affluent at the same time). Maybe you mean upper-middle class, but even then it doesn't fall into that category.

 

Yes, why don't we cut service along Richmond Avenue?

 

What am I supposed to say? It goes without saying that the internal waste should be cut.

 

What are you talking about with the B1 and B64? They still serve the same communities.

 

And where would you reroute the B37 to, wise-guy?

 

And they are basically unaffected considering a driver on these forums spoke about the ridership patterns of the B31 at night (everybody was off by Avenue U)

 

You have a frequent north-south line and a frequent east-west line within 1/4 mile. All I have is a frequent north-south line and it is close to 1/2 mile away (the S62 doesn't count as frequent)

 

Because the X12 serves Westerleigh and the X30 serves the "affluent" parts of West Brighton you keep on referring to. What would you do with the X30? Have it bypass Mariners' Harbor and give up the opportunity to collect extra revenue? Not to mention the fact that you still have the X14 and X30.

 

 

 

It wasn't really an issue of network coverage: It was the fact that those people now have to transfer to access a major hub (Coney Island)

 

 

 

If the entire community used those buses and depended on them so much, why was ridership so low?

 

 

 

The B36 and BM1/BM3 cuts were made after June 27th.

 

Sheepshead Bay is affluent. If it wasn't, you wouldn't have story lines like "Sheepshead Bay Station Plaza is bringing modern, multi-level retail to the affluent neighborhood of Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn." http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2009/05/22-story-tower-w-condos-considered-for-s/

 

You also don't build tons of condos in an area with residents that can't afford them, nor would you see Porsches, Audis, Mercedes Benz and BMWs up and down Sheepshead Bay Rd in an non-affluent area.

 

The numbers that you provide are lowered significantly by the housing projects over there on Nostrand Avenue and Avenue X. Take their surpressed numbers away and you'd have a completely different picture, very much like West Brighton and the homeowners and condo owners vs the project folks there.

 

As for the BM1/BM3 and B36 cuts, the BM1/BM3 cuts were happening before the service cut in June and have continued and the B36 cuts just made matters worse for folks in South Brooklyn.

 

The B1 and B64 do not serve the same communities. The B64 no longer provides access to Coney Island AND the bounderies in which the B1 and B64 serve have completely changed.

 

As for the B37, for some reason a re-route via 5th Avenue comes to mind once the B37 passes Bay Ridge Avenue and then it can run to Downtown Brooklyn somewhere.

 

As far as the X12 and X30 goes, the X14 doesn't go anywhere near where the X16 went, and it is a further walk than the X16 was. Truth be told, everyday I ride the X30 I always have this thought in the back of my mind that it would be great if we could completely bypass all stops after Decker Avenue. LOL Besides all of those folks could drive to Decker and pick up the X30 just like they do over there by Western Beef or whatever. That's where the bulk of the ridership comes from is the car folks, not Mariners Harbor itself.

 

 

How exactly do you go from having 4 bus lines to two??? :confused: LOL

 

That too, but I was mostly referring to the northern and southern sections of Gerritsen Beach (for example, "northern West Brighton" would be by Richmond Terrace, and "southern West Brighton" would be by Forest Avenue)

 

Yeah, but "Southern West Brighton" goes past Forest Avenue. Also, most West Brighton folks don't really consider Richmond Terrace to be "the real" West Brighton. That's really New Brighton IMO. :eek: The heart of West Brighton is along parts of Forest Avenue and going towards the affluent Randall Manor. :cool:

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Sheepshead Bay is affluent. If it wasn't, you wouldn't have story lines like "Sheepshead Bay Station Plaza is bringing modern, multi-level retail to the affluent neighborhood of Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn." http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2009/05/22-story-tower-w-condos-considered-for-s/

 

You also don't build tons of condos in an area with residents that can't afford them, nor would you see Porsches, Audis, Mercedes Benz and BMWs up and down Sheepshead Bay Rd in an non-affluent area.

 

The numbers that you provide are lowered significantly by the housing projects over there on Nostrand Avenue and Avenue X. Take their surpressed numbers away and you'd have a completely different picture, very much like West Brighton and the homeowners and condo owners vs the project folks there.

 

As for the BM1/BM3 and B36 cuts, the BM1/BM3 cuts were happening before the service cut in June and have continued and the B36 cuts just made matters worse for folks in South Brooklyn.

 

The B1 and B64 do not serve the same communities. The B64 no longer provides access to Coney Island AND the bounderies in which the B1 and B64 serve have completely changed.

 

As for the B37, for some reason a re-route via 5th Avenue comes to mind once the B37 passes Bay Ridge Avenue and then it can run to Downtown Brooklyn somewhere.

 

As far as the X12 and X30 goes, the X14 doesn't go anywhere near where the X16 went, and it is a further walk than the X16 was. Truth be told, everyday I ride the X30 I always have this thought in the back of my mind that it would be great if we could completely bypass all stops after Decker Avenue. LOL Besides all of those folks could drive to Decker and pick up the X30 just like they do over there by Western Beef or whatever. That's where the bulk of the ridership comes from is the car folks, not Mariners Harbor itself.

 

 

How exactly do you go from having 4 bus lines to two??? :confused: LOL

 

 

 

Yeah, but "Southern West Brighton" goes past Forest Avenue. Also, most West Brighton folks don't really consider Richmond Terrace to be "the real" West Brighton. That's really New Brighton IMO. :eek: The heart of West Brighton is along parts of Forest Avenue and going towards the affluent Randall Manor. :cool:

 

Those numbers are for the area by Emmons Avenue, which has no projects. The housing projects have a median income of $14,000, whereas the areas along Emmons Avenue have a median income of about $49,000-$55,000.

 

The point is that, other than Coney Island, all areas served by the B1 and B64 were still served by a bus after June 27th.

 

What would be the point in that? The people might as well just take a crosstown bus (B4 or B16) to the B63.

 

So if it is the car-driving people who are using the X30 in Mariners' Harbor and Graniteville, that invalidates your argument about the X30 serving a lower-class clientele in Mariners' Harbor. It might be a lower class clientele than in West Brighton/Westerleigh, but it isn't lower class people (not that there are many lower class people on express buses anyway)

 

The S59/S89 are really one local/limited pair, and even the S44 can be counted as a branch of the buses on the Richmond Avenue corridor (so I was thinking in terms of corridors, not bus routes)

 

Think about it: The B44 runs every 3-4 minutes when you consider the local and limited together. When you add up all of the frequencies on the Richmond Avenue buses, that is what it comes out to.

 

I know about "southern West Brighton", but I know that it includes Forest Avenue. And near Richmond Terrace is definitely not "New Brighton". If you want to ignore the big "West Brighton Houses" sign, you can call it Livingston, but not New Brighton.

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Those numbers are for the area by Emmons Avenue, which has no projects. The housing projects have a median income of $14,000, whereas the areas along Emmons Avenue have a median income of about $49,000-$55,000.

 

The point is that, other than Coney Island, all areas served by the B1 and B64 were still served by a bus after June 27th.

 

What would be the point in that? The people might as well just take a crosstown bus (B4 or B16) to the B63.

 

Oh please. That is such a nice way to gloss over the big picture. LOL You know that the way in which those buses were re-routed don't serve the same communities the way they did before. For example, folks in Bay Ridge now don't have direct access to Manhattan Beach and would have to transfer from the B64 to the B1.

 

You would have more frequent service on 5th Avenue which has high ridership and give riders Downtown service in an area that the B63 doesn't serve.

 

Hmm... So now it went from $50,000 to $49,000-55,000??? LOL And which parts of Emmons Avenue is that that you're referring to?? And $14,000 for folks who live in the projects??? Jesus Christ! How in the world does someone live off of that a year???? :eek:

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Oh please. That is such a nice way to gloss over the big picture. LOL You know that the way in which those buses were re-routed don't serve the same communities the way they did before. For example, folks in Bay Ridge now don't have direct access to Manhattan Beach and would have to transfer from the B64 to the B1.

 

You would have more frequent service on 5th Avenue which has high ridership and give riders Downtown service in an area that the B63 doesn't serve.

 

Hmm... So now it went from 50,000 to 49,000-55,000??? LOL And which parts of Emmons Avenue is that that you're referring to??

 

Yeah. And now riders going from the 86th Street/4th Avenue area have direct access to Brighton Beach, so it is a trade-off. I remember riding the B1, and only a handfull of people got off to transfer to the B64 in front, which shows that the service change benefitted B1 riders.

 

But 5th Avenue doesn't need to have its frequency doubled.

 

I was referring to the whole Emmons Avenue corridor. See this map: http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer?ref=nyregion (Click on More maps, and then on income)

 

And like a couple of thousand dollars makes a difference when we're talking about things like this. The $49,000 area balances out with the $55,000 area, so the median income is around $50,000.

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Yeah. And now riders going from the 86th Street/4th Avenue area have direct access to Brighton Beach, so it is a trade-off. I remember riding the B1, and only a handfull of people got off to transfer to the B64 in front, which shows that the service change benefitted B1 riders.

 

But 5th Avenue doesn't need to have its frequency doubled.

 

I was referring to the whole Emmons Avenue corridor. See this map: http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer?ref=nyregion (Click on More maps, and then on income)

 

And like a couple of thousand dollars makes a difference when we're talking about things like this. The $49,000 area balances out with the $55,000 area, so the median income is around $50,000.

 

Maybe not doubled, but you could run fewer B63s to compensate for the B37. And why just focus on Emmons Avenue when you have other nice upscale parts of Sheepshead Bay?? :confused: I find it hard to believe that the median income would be that low anyway with all of the condos and such being built there.

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For one, Sheepshead bay is not affluent; and I'm not even factoring in the projects out there either....

 

two, what petition brought the x37/38 back....

 

 

and this:

If Gerritsen Beach is everything south of Avenue U, I said that "northern Gerritsen Beach" is everything within walking distance of Avenue U.

 

And I was saying that it is an alternative for that section of Gerritsen Beach: They may prefer to transfer at Kings Highway than Avenue U, but it is still an alternative.

 

And I was just saying that, for overnight service, most B2 customers are close to the B82.

well, again, the area north of Gerritsen Beach is considered Marine park.

 

....and your alternatives argument, that's the MTA's thought process...

look how many less bus routes we have in the system b/c of it....

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For one, Sheepshead bay is not affluent; and I'm not even factoring in the projects out there either....

 

two, what petition brought the x37/38 back....

 

I beg to differ. It certainly has upscale parts.

 

Two, how else did the X37/X38 get suddenly restored??? If I didn't know any better, you seem to be saying that the service was just magically put back because the (MTA) wanted to be nice. :confused:

 

Here is the proof right here...

 

http://www.brooklyneagle.com/categories/category.php?category_id=27&id=38384

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Maybe not doubled, but you could run fewer B63s to compensate for the B37. And why just focus on Emmons Avenue when you have other nice upscale parts of Sheepshead Bay?? :confused: I find it hard to believe that the median income would be that low anyway with all of the condos and such being built there.

 

They're building condos in Harlem, even though at least 60% of the residents there live below the poverty line. The presence of condos in sprawling neighborhoods is not indicative of the financial status of the entire neighborhood.

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I beg to differ. It certainly has upscale parts.

 

Two, how else did the X37/X38 get suddenly restored??? If I didn't know any better, you seem to be saying that the service was just magically put back because the (MTA) wanted to be nice. :confused:

 

Here is the proof right here...

 

http://www.transitblogger.com/buses/brooklyn-officials-want-express-bus-service-restored.php

Sheepshead... Affluent/Upscale... Where at? Because I don't see it.

That strip along Emmons av is appealing, but not upscale.... rich people aren't flocking to no Sheepshead Bay....

 

 

anyway, from that same link/article....

"Complaints from Bay Ridge and southern Brooklyn express bus riders about longer-than-usual commutes have flooded the offices of Bay Ridge elected officials, who have taken their case right to MTA headquarters in Manhattan."

 

Formal Complaining & Petitioning isn't the same thing; although they can go hand-in hand....

I'm not doubting they don't have a gripe/a case....

 

....and what it seems you're portraying is that.... a bunch of people got together, signed some petition, handed it to the MTA, and POOF, the x37/38 has been reverted....

 

 

 

Hence why that bullshit line the (MTA) made saying, "We're cutting service where not too many people will be affected".

I'm sayin though.....

 

"not too many" according to who?

You people that make these decisions that don't even ride the things.... You people who've probably never stepped foot on a public bus/train.....

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I beg to differ. It certainly has upscale parts.

 

Two, how else did the X37/X38 get suddenly restored??? If I didn't know any better, you seem to be saying that the service was just magically put back because the (MTA) wanted to be nice. :confused:

 

Here is the proof right here...

 

http://www.brooklyneagle.com/categories/category.php?category_id=27&id=38384

 

The service was restored because the X27 and X28 needed too many additional buses to make the service work, negating the savings. The X37 and X38 allow all rush hour X27s and X28s to start and end at 23 Street. It saved a lot of money when the same thing was done on the X1. Unless someone comes up with cash, there will never be X27 and X28 weekend service again. All the changes made thus far are zero sum changes (i.e. no financial implications).

 

The X16 could work with 2-4 buses in each direction, but the MTA has to cut something to run those buses. What would you suggest they cut?

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I'm sayin though.....

 

"not too many" according to who?

You people that make these decisions that don't even ride the things.... You people who've probably never stepped foot on a public bus/train.....

I guess "not too many" refers to...

Weekend service Bx20, 34, B2, 24, M1 (south of 106 St), 8, 21, 50, Q31, 76, S42, 54 and 76

Off-peak service on the Q26 and 42

Elimination of the Bx14, 25, B23, 39, 51, 71, 75, 77, M6, 18, 27, 30, Q14, 74, 75, 79, 89, S60 and 67

It's like you said in another post, they use that phrase to justify cutting one route, but not another

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They're building condos in Harlem, even though at least 60% of the residents there live below the poverty line. The presence of condos in sprawling neighborhoods is not indicative of the financial status of the entire neighborhood.

 

Not the entire neighbourhood and I never said it was, but it is indicative that an area is either becoming gentrified or is relatively upscale. Sheepshead Bay overall is an upscale area minus the housing projects. Take a walk down Bedford Avenue for example, which is quite nice. Having worked in the construction industry for a few years, I know a thing or two about the industry. Those condos and brownstones are being bought by folks with cash buddy. Little by little the poor folks in Harlem are being pushed out. No one with a brain would build condos for them to sit there and collect dust. That is just a stupid business decision. You don't build something unless you know that there is someone to buy it. That someone may not be available to buy immediately, but the point is that there is a base to support building the condos there, not to mention that the bare bones of those brownstones are structurally sound; nothing that renovations can't fix. Furthermore, you can't possibly expect an area like Harlem to become gentrified over night. Gentrification depending on the area can be a slow process, but the area is becoming more and more mixed from what I hear and read. The same thing is happening with areas of Washington Heights, which for years has been predominantly Dominican. Also if banks are setting up shop there and investing or giving loans to build there, that is another sign that the area is on the up and up.

 

The service was restored because the X27 and X28 needed too many additional buses to make the service work, negating the savings. The X37 and X38 allow all rush hour X27s and X28s to start and end at 23 Street. It saved a lot of money when the same thing was done on the X1. Unless someone comes up with cash, there will never be X27 and X28 weekend service again. All the changes made thus far are zero sum changes (i.e. no financial implications).

 

The X16 could work with 2-4 buses in each direction, but the MTA has to cut something to run those buses. What would you suggest they cut?

 

Hmm... You point out something very interesting... According to what you say then, the (MTA) wasn't competent enough to see that keeping the weekday service as they had it prior to the cuts last year would be a financial loss. What that tells me is that they don't know how to be fiscally responsible and some of the cuts that they claim would be a savings for them, may not have been or could have been avoided to some degree. So to answer your question, I would suggest them cutting more overhead for starters. I have never heard of employers claiming that they are BROKE, but yet they turn around and hire more staff in an effort to "consolidate". That is just ridiculous. My company also downsized. For example, we got rid of a part-time accountant, but we didn't hire two full-time accountants to replace the part-time one. That is the type of nonsense that the (MTA) is doing; "downsizing" but hiring more overhead staff to make up for the "downsizing" they call themselves doing. Another thing I would do is consolidate more and streamline things better. The more you break down departments, the more problems it creates and in the case of the (MTA) it has led to rampid theft and abuse of wages.

 

I also support them doing away with Student Metrocards. It is not their responsibility to pay for what the city and state should be paying for, or better yet what the parents of these kids should be paying for. If these kids want to go to a school outside of their neighbourhood then that's perfectly fine, but let the parents pay for it or find grants or something. There are plenty of unclaimed grants and free money out there if people do the research to get the funds. I would also get tough on these capital projects and stop hiring so many outside contractors. Now that money can't be allocated back into the general budget, but if subway projects are completed quicker and more efficiently, it would mean less need for subway shuttle service which I'm sure the (MTA) has to pay overtime for, etc. How many buses have to go back and forth just to carry one train load of passengers??

 

Those savings alone would help restore some service back to the X16, not to mention getting tough on farebeating. I still don't see why they can't do more with farebeating with the current staff that they have to address the problem. Put those guys on the routes or at stops that are known to be notorious hot spots and get to writing tickets!! :mad: They could do blitzes like the NYPD does and bring in cash thay way. I think it is total BS that they claim that it is oh soooo expensive to control the problem that is costing them millions a year in lost monies. It's difficult for them because they don't have the balls to address the problem efficiently the way that they should. Why try to address the problem if you can just raise the fare to make up the losses?

 

Notice I didn't call for service cuts anywhere. Riders have suffered enough cuts. It's time for the (MTA) to get their finances in order and stop cutting the service that riders throughout New York City depend on. We sit around and talk about yeah let's cut this route because it isn't too bad. These are peoples' lives here and they depend on this service to get to point A and point B and we need an agency that can step up to the plate and provide the service that is needed. Simple as that. No more making excuses for the (MTA). Oh they're so big. Oh they have so much to maintain. Sure they do, the question is how can they make things more efficient and stop making excuses for them because they're so big without looking at cutting service as "the answer"?

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Sheepshead... Affluent/Upscale... Where at? Because I don't see it.

That strip along Emmons av is appealing, but not upscale.... rich people aren't flocking to no Sheepshead Bay....

 

 

anyway, from that same link/article....

"Complaints from Bay Ridge and southern Brooklyn express bus riders about longer-than-usual commutes have flooded the offices of Bay Ridge elected officials, who have taken their case right to MTA headquarters in Manhattan."

 

Formal Complaining & Petitioning isn't the same thing; although they can go hand-in hand....

I'm not doubting they don't have a gripe/a case....

 

....and what it seems you're portraying is that.... a bunch of people got together, signed some petition, handed it to the MTA, and POOF, the x37/38 has been reverted....

 

 

 

 

I'm sayin though.....

 

"not too many" according to who?

You people that make these decisions that don't even ride the things.... You people who've probably never stepped foot on a public bus/train.....

 

Actually it seems that you're saying that the X37 and X38 just magically reappared as if the (MTA) just gave in just because they wanted to be nice. That service was not just handed back to them. They fought to get it back because the (MTA) was under the impression that service was fine until folks started giving it to their local representatives.

 

And as far as Sheepshead Bay goes, I certainly wouldn't call it poor. Some of those condos there are going for a cool $500,000 or more for one bedrooms, the equivalent of a house on Staten Island in some areas. Rents can range as high as $2,100 for a two bedroom and $1,300 for a one bedroom. Yes, it's not the Upper West Side or the Upper East Side, but it certainly isn't a hole in the wall by any means and you have a decent salary to afford those types of rents or mortgages.

 

Those numbers are for the area by Emmons Avenue, which has no projects. The housing projects have a median income of $14,000, whereas the areas along Emmons Avenue have a median income of about $49,000-$55,000.

 

The point is that, other than Coney Island, all areas served by the B1 and B64 were still served by a bus after June 27th.

 

What would be the point in that? The people might as well just take a crosstown bus (B4 or B16) to the B63.

 

So if it is the car-driving people who are using the X30 in Mariners' Harbor and Graniteville, that invalidates your argument about the X30 serving a lower-class clientele in Mariners' Harbor. It might be a lower class clientele than in West Brighton/Westerleigh, but it isn't lower class people (not that there are many lower class people on express buses anyway)

 

The S59/S89 are really one local/limited pair, and even the S44 can be counted as a branch of the buses on the Richmond Avenue corridor (so I was thinking in terms of corridors, not bus routes)

 

Think about it: The B44 runs every 3-4 minutes when you consider the local and limited together. When you add up all of the frequencies on the Richmond Avenue buses, that is what it comes out to.

 

I know about "southern West Brighton", but I know that it includes Forest Avenue. And near Richmond Terrace is definitely not "New Brighton". If you want to ignore the big "West Brighton Houses" sign, you can call it Livingston, but not New Brighton.

 

Yeah, Livingston, New Brighton... Whatever the hell they call that area, but it's not West Brighton in my book. It's not like I go down there on a regular basis to know anyway. It sort of doesn't exist in terms of in neck of the woods as far as I'm concerned. lol

 

As far the clientele comment goes, the X30 is not necessarily serving Mariners Harbor per se as it serving the park-and-ride folks that park there because it is big and probably less of a chance of them getting ticketed. That's why they drive there, not to mention that it's four stops before going over the Goethals, so basically these folks aren't necessarily from Mariners Harbor or Graniteville.

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Actually it seems that you're saying that the X37 and X38 just magically reappared as if the (MTA) just gave in just because they wanted to be nice. That service was not just handed back to them. They fought to get it back because the (MTA) was under the impression that service was fine until folks started giving it to their local representatives.

 

And as far as Sheepshead Bay goes, I certainly wouldn't call it poor. Some of those condos there are going for a cool $500,000 or more for one bedrooms, the equivalent of a house on Staten Island in some areas. Rents can range as high as $2,100 for a two bedroom and $1,300 for a one bedroom. Yes, it's not the Upper West Side or the Upper East Side, but it certainly isn't a hole in the wall by any means and you have a decent salary to afford those types of rents or mortgages.

 

I'm not the one implying those two routes came back due to some petition... That's you.

 

Everything else you're bringing up about being "nice" and all that, I'm not sure how you got that from what I said... Or simply pulling that out of the sky as some sort of unfounded retaliatory remark on your part.... Anyway, No, the routes weren't "handed back" to them, but @ the same token, I'm not buying that a group of people signed some petition & the MTA decided to give it back to them... and that link you provided shows nothing of the sort either.....

 

Personally, I think you're being real defensive about this petition thing; just by reading some of your (snappy) comments/replies in this thread thus far....

 

 

As far as Sheepshead goes... (I) never said, or even hinted anything about it being poor....

The neighborhood does have some nice parts, true,... but I'm not classifying them as rich.... good grief....

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The (B74) should stay as is, as well as the (B44)

 

I'm not going to comment about the B74, but he's not saying to do anything about the routing of the B44 itself: just to interline the B44 runs as B4 trips as well.

 

Maybe not doubled, but you could run fewer B63s to compensate for the B37. And why just focus on Emmons Avenue when you have other nice upscale parts of Sheepshead Bay?? :confused: I find it hard to believe that the median income would be that low anyway with all of the condos and such being built there.

 

There aren't any "upscale" parts of Sheepshead Bay according to that map. Look at the median incomes: $55,000, $53,000, etc. That definitely isn't upscale.

 

For one, Sheepshead bay is not affluent; and I'm not even factoring in the projects out there either....

 

two, what petition brought the x37/38 back....

 

 

and this:

 

well, again, the area north of Gerritsen Beach is considered Marine park.

 

....and your alternatives argument, that's the MTA's thought process...

look how many less bus routes we have in the system b/c of it....

 

I'm not talking about the area north of Gerritsen Beach: I'm talking about the northern section of Gerritsen Beach.

 

I guess "not too many" refers to...

Weekend service Bx20, 34, B2, 24, M1 (south of 106 St), 8, 21, 50, Q31, 76, S42, 54 and 76

Off-peak service on the Q26 and 42

Elimination of the Bx14, 25, B23, 39, 51, 71, 75, 77, M6, 18, 27, 30, Q14, 74, 75, 79, 89, S60 and 67

It's like you said in another post, they use that phrase to justify cutting one route, but not another

 

They meant it relative to the amount of money saved.

 

The service was restored because the X27 and X28 needed too many additional buses to make the service work, negating the savings. The X37 and X38 allow all rush hour X27s and X28s to start and end at 23 Street. It saved a lot of money when the same thing was done on the X1. Unless someone comes up with cash, there will never be X27 and X28 weekend service again. All the changes made thus far are zero sum changes (i.e. no financial implications).

 

The X16 could work with 2-4 buses in each direction, but the MTA has to cut something to run those buses. What would you suggest they cut?

 

The savings wouldn't be completely negated if they continued to run the service pattern as is: They just said that the savings weren't worth inconveniencing the passengers.

 

Not the entire neighbourhood and I never said it was, but it is indicative that an area is either becoming gentrified or is relatively upscale. Sheepshead Bay overall is an upscale area minus the housing projects. Take a walk down Bedford Avenue for example, which is quite nice. Having worked in the construction industry for a few years, I know a thing or two about the industry. Those condos and brownstones are being bought by folks with cash buddy. Little by little the poor folks in Harlem are being pushed out. No one with a brain would build condos for them to sit there and collect dust. That is just a stupid business decision. You don't build something unless you know that there is someone to buy it. That someone may not be available to buy immediately, but the point is that there is a base to support building the condos there, not to mention that the bare bones of those brownstones are structurally sound; nothing that renovations can't fix. Furthermore, you can't possibly expect an area like Harlem to become gentrified over night. Gentrification depending on the area can be a slow process, but the area is becoming more and more mixed from what I hear and read. The same thing is happening with areas of Washington Heights, which for years has been predominantly Dominican. Also if banks are setting up shop there and investing or giving loans to build there, that is another sign that the area is on the up and up.

 

 

 

Hmm... You point out something very interesting... According to what you say then, the (MTA) wasn't competent enough to see that keeping the weekday service as they had it prior to the cuts last year would be a financial loss. What that tells me is that they don't know how to be fiscally responsible and some of the cuts that they claim would be a savings for them, may not have been or could have been avoided to some degree. So to answer your question, I would suggest them cutting more overhead for starters. I have never heard of employers claiming that they are BROKE, but yet they turn around and hire more staff in an effort to "consolidate". That is just ridiculous. My company also downsized. For example, we got rid of a part-time accountant, but we didn't hire two full-time accountants to replace the part-time one. That is the type of nonsense that the (MTA) is doing; "downsizing" but hiring more overhead staff to make up for the "downsizing" they call themselves doing. Another thing I would do is consolidate more and streamline things better. The more you break down departments, the more problems it creates and in the case of the (MTA) it has led to rampid theft and abuse of wages.

 

I also support them doing away with Student Metrocards. It is not their responsibility to pay for what the city and state should be paying for, or better yet what the parents of these kids should be paying for. If these kids want to go to a school outside of their neighbourhood then that's perfectly fine, but let the parents pay for it or find grants or something. There are plenty of unclaimed grants and free money out there if people do the research to get the funds. I would also get tough on these capital projects and stop hiring so many outside contractors. Now that money can't be allocated back into the general budget, but if subway projects are completed quicker and more efficiently, it would mean less need for subway shuttle service which I'm sure the (MTA) has to pay overtime for, etc. How many buses have to go back and forth just to carry one train load of passengers??

 

Those savings alone would help restore some service back to the X16, not to mention getting tough on farebeating. I still don't see why they can't do more with farebeating with the current staff that they have to address the problem. Put those guys on the routes or at stops that are known to be notorious hot spots and get to writing tickets!! :mad: They could do blitzes like the NYPD does and bring in cash thay way. I think it is total BS that they claim that it is oh soooo expensive to control the problem that is costing them millions a year in lost monies. It's difficult for them because they don't have the balls to address the problem efficiently the way that they should. Why try to address the problem if you can just raise the fare to make up the losses?

 

Notice I didn't call for service cuts anywhere. Riders have suffered enough cuts. It's time for the (MTA) to get their finances in order and stop cutting the service that riders throughout New York City depend on. We sit around and talk about yeah let's cut this route because it isn't too bad. These are peoples' lives here and they depend on this service to get to point A and point B and we need an agency that can step up to the plate and provide the service that is needed. Simple as that. No more making excuses for the (MTA). Oh they're so big. Oh they have so much to maintain. Sure they do, the question is how can they make things more efficient and stop making excuses for them because they're so big without looking at cutting service as "the answer"?

 

People who buy condos don't necessarily have a lot of money: They are generally middle-class people, but I doubt a very rich person would be buying a condo.

 

See my comment to BrooklynBus about the X37/X38.

 

And they made many more cuts internally than the service reductions. They had an $800 million deficit, and only $100 million in savings came from service reductions.

 

You know my stance on Student MetroCards.

 

Actually it seems that you're saying that the X37 and X38 just magically reappared as if the (MTA) just gave in just because they wanted to be nice. That service was not just handed back to them. They fought to get it back because the (MTA) was under the impression that service was fine until folks started giving it to their local representatives.

 

And as far as Sheepshead Bay goes, I certainly wouldn't call it poor. Some of those condos there are going for a cool $500,000 or more for one bedrooms, the equivalent of a house on Staten Island in some areas. Rents can range as high as $2,100 for a two bedroom and $1,300 for a one bedroom. Yes, it's not the Upper West Side or the Upper East Side, but it certainly isn't a hole in the wall by any means and you have a decent salary to afford those types of rents or mortgages.

 

 

 

Yeah, Livingston, New Brighton... Whatever the hell they call that area, but it's not West Brighton in my book. It's not like I go down there on a regular basis to know anyway. It sort of doesn't exist in terms of in neck of the woods as far as I'm concerned. lol

 

As far the clientele comment goes, the X30 is not necessarily serving Mariners Harbor per se as it serving the park-and-ride folks that park there because it is big and probably less of a chance of them getting ticketed. That's why they drive there, not to mention that it's four stops before going over the Goethals, so basically these folks aren't necessarily from Mariners Harbor or Graniteville.

 

He's not calling it poor. He's just saying that it's not affluent, or rich, or wealthy or whatever term you want to use. And there aren't any pockets of Sheepshead Bay that could be considered affluent.

 

Just because an area has high rents doesn't necessarily mean it is an affluent area. Look at parts of East Harlem, Washington Heights, Bushwick, etc. I know you may say "those areas are gentrifying", but the point is that there are still plenty of poor people in those neighborhoods, who simply struggle and pay the high rents.

 

And where do those park-and-ride people live if not in Graniteville and Mariners' Harbor? Plus, I disagree that there are tons of people parking at Western Beef and taking the X30: Whenever I go to that area, I see a lot of people getting off and walking into the surrounding streets.

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I'm not the one implying those two routes came back due to some petition... That's you.

 

Everything else you're bringing up about being "nice" and all that, I'm not sure how you got that from what I said... Or simply pulling that out of the sky as some sort of unfounded retaliatory remark on your part.... Anyway, No, the routes weren't "handed back" to them, but @ the same token, I'm not buying that a group of people signed some petition & the MTA decided to give it back to them... and that link you provided shows nothing of the sort either.....

 

Personally, I think you're being real defensive about this petition thing; just by reading some of your (snappy) comments/replies in this thread thus far....

 

 

As far as Sheepshead goes... (I) never said, or even hinted anything about it being poor....

The neighborhood does have some nice parts, true,... but I'm not classifying them as rich.... good grief....

 

Yes, I'm being defensive about it because I get tired of hearing oh, nothing can be done to fix the messes that the (MTA) creates. For my hard earned money I want accountability and I want to see changes implemented to make the system better. I don't want to sit around and heap praise upon an agency that has f*cked over the passengers for years just because they're this big "grand" transportation company or give them excuse after excuse as to why they're behind on so many fronts. It's not just the agency that's the problem, its the representatives up in Albany doing the same old same old and smiling and promising change and then nothing happens.

 

As far the rich thing, I don't know where you checkmate got this idea from that an area can't be affluent and middle class. The two words can and do go together and it doesn't necessarily mean that the area is swimming in cash like Beverly Hills or anything. Affluent doesn't have to mean rich.

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I'm not talking about the area north of Gerritsen Beach: I'm talking about the northern section of Gerritsen Beach.

 

Now you're reaching, but I'll reply anyway....

 

That small area b/w Av U & Av X (which some ppl. don't even consider as being part of their neighborhood, mind you), compared to the rest of Gerritsen, isn't grounds to suggest that the B3 is an alternative for those folk...

 

 

As far the rich thing, I don't know where you checkmate got this idea from that an area can't be affluent and middle class. The two words can and do go together and it doesn't necessarily mean that the area is swimming in cash like Beverly Hills or anything. Affluent doesn't have to mean rich.

1- riches/richness & affluence go together.... affluence & middle class-ness does not.

 

2- Please... Now you're hiding behind the notion that affluence doesn't necessarily mean rich all of a sudden b/c you can't point out a "rich" portion of Sheepshead.... I'm still waiting to read what part of Sheepshead you consider affluent.... I love how you run to the extremes to try to prove a point;

 

a) If I'm saying it's not rich, then automatically it's supposedly poor....

:P ...and it doesn't have to be on no Scrooge McDuck, Beverly Hills, ma'fu**as swimmin in money type shit...

 

Outside of you, who considers affluence w/ the middle class.....

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I'm not going to comment about the B74, but he's not saying to do anything about the routing of the B44 itself: just to interline the B44 runs as B4 trips as well.

 

 

 

There aren't any "upscale" parts of Sheepshead Bay according to that map. Look at the median incomes: $55,000, $53,000, etc. That definitely isn't upscale.

 

 

 

I'm not talking about the area north of Gerritsen Beach: I'm talking about the northern section of Gerritsen Beach.

 

 

 

They meant it relative to the amount of money saved.

 

 

 

The savings wouldn't be completely negated if they continued to run the service pattern as is: They just said that the savings weren't worth inconveniencing the passengers.

 

 

 

People who buy condos don't necessarily have a lot of money: They are generally middle-class people, but I doubt a very rich person would be buying a condo.

 

See my comment to BrooklynBus about the X37/X38.

 

And they made many more cuts internally than the service reductions. They had an $800 million deficit, and only $100 million in savings came from service reductions.

 

You know my stance on Student MetroCards.

 

 

 

He's not calling it poor. He's just saying that it's not affluent, or rich, or wealthy or whatever term you want to use. And there aren't any pockets of Sheepshead Bay that could be considered affluent.

 

Just because an area has high rents doesn't necessarily mean it is an affluent area. Look at parts of East Harlem, Washington Heights, Bushwick, etc. I know you may say "those areas are gentrifying", but the point is that there are still plenty of poor people in those neighborhoods, who simply struggle and pay the high rents.

 

And where do those park-and-ride people live if not in Graniteville and Mariners' Harbor? Plus, I disagree that there are tons of people parking at Western Beef and taking the X30: Whenever I go to that area, I see a lot of people getting off and walking into the surrounding streets.

 

 

Yeah and just because those people get off and walk doesn't mean that they're walking home. There are plenty of folks on the X14 that get off and get in their cars and drive home. They may just not park so close to the bus stop or they may walk to a spot a wait to get picked up. Let's not be too naïve about that many people getting off in that area. Granted some of them I know do live there, but there are plenty of them that get off and walk to a pick up spot or walk to their parked car further away. You know that there's this stigma on Staten Island about folks walking overall. That's why you see some of them running to the car. It's like they can't be seen walking because it's too déclassé or something. lol To be honest though, in my neighbourhood and especially on my block, everybody hops in their cars. I'm one of the few that actually walk to my bus stop for a relative long distance (5 or so blocks to the X30. It's usually very evident too who is doing what. The folks I see walking in my area are either too poor to use public transportation like some the Mexicans I see passing through the area from time to time or you'll have folks walking their dog or going for a walk or a jog along Forest Avenue. Now at my X30 stop there is occasionally a white lady that waits there, but it is very clear that doesn't walk very far based on what she wears to walk in.

 

Even me, I'll do the "go for a walk" thing if I'm the mood to walk and the weather is nice to or from the X10 and people can tell that you're not this poor dude by the way you're dressed. However, of late I wouldn't be caught dead walking from the X10 and it's probably because I'm starting to realize this stigma attached to walking around on the island. I just call car service and have a car waiting for me once I get off of the bus.

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Now you're reaching, but I'll reply anyway....

 

That small area b/w Av U & Av X (which some ppl. don't even consider as being part of their neighborhood, mind you), compared to the rest of Gerritsen, isn't grounds to suggest that the B3 is an alternative for those folk...

 

 

 

1- riches/richness & affluence go together.... affluence & middle class-ness does not.

 

2- Please... Now you're hiding behind the notion that affluence doesn't necessarily mean rich all of a sudden b/c you can't point out a "rich" portion of Sheepshead.... I'm still waiting to read what part of Sheepshead you consider affluent.... I love how you run to the extremes to try to prove a point;

 

a) If I'm saying it's not rich, then automatically it's supposedly poor....

:P ...and it doesn't have to be on no Scrooge McDuck, Beverly Hills, ma'fu**as swimmin in money type shit...

 

Outside of you, who considers affluence w/ the middle class.....

 

Just do a Google search and put in "Affluent Middle Class" and see how many hits come up with no commas. The term is certainly thrown around and it doesn't have to mean dirt rich either. Just someone who is relatively well to do. You and checkmate have a rigid idea of the term "affluent" and "middle class". I just finished working on a financial project talking about the U.S. and its large affluent middle class. Certainly many Americans are not filthy rich, but some are well to do and that definition can vary greatly based on where the person lives and so forth.

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Just do a Google search and put in "Affluent Middle Class" and see how many hits come up with no commas. The term is certainly thrown around and it doesn't have to mean dirt rich either. Just someone who is relatively well to do.

 

why would you bring up (hits w/ no commas) if it the term were thrown around as much as you're trying to convey to me that it is... sounds fishy, but anyway, I'll play your little game....

 

 

...in the search, there were still hits w/ commas (3 on the first page alone)...

From what I gather, the use of the term is more an overseas thing (looking at the countries mentioned in the majority of the hits I saw)....

 

My point of view is of, that of an American....

and as one.... never in my life have I heard the terms affluence & middle class meshed together...

 

 

You and checkmate have a rigid idea of the term "affluent" and "middle class".

- Affluent' date=' yes.... Especially when it pertains to money...

 

 

- Middle Class, not so much....

 

I'm not in the category of folk that (are quick to) throw people that aren't rich, or poor, in the category of being middle class... that would define the majority of people....

[i'](I'm not saying YOU said I did or didn't... just pointing this out for the sake of discussion)[/i]

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why would you bring up (hits w/ no commas) if it the term were thrown around as much as you're trying to convey to me that it is... sounds fishy, but anyway, I'll play your little game....

 

 

...in the search, there were still hits w/ commas (3 on the first page alone)...

From what I gather, the use of the term is more an overseas thing (looking at the countries mentioned in the majority of the hits I saw)....

 

My point of view is of, that of an American; Never in my life have I heard the terms affluence & middle class meshed together...

 

I hear it a lot because I work with a lot of financial documents and being a linguist I know that the term is thrown around quite a bit. The U.S. as a whole is seen as a very rich country. Of course not all of those people are filthy rich. I'm putting my example below from a financial document that was just translated from English.

 

Here is a piece from a project that I was working on written by an American consulting/accounting firm:

 

"Other incentives to invest in the United States are the inexpensive labor force... the diverse population centers and the ever-changing trends and tastes in a very large and affluent consumer market."

 

What we would consider to be "rich" is clearly a small percentage of the population, so they obviously have to be referring to the middle class as well in this example. In sum, the term "affluent" can be used in a very broad sense and can be used with the middle class depending on the situation.

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The service was restored because the X27 and X28 needed too many additional buses to make the service work, negating the savings. The X37 and X38 allow all rush hour X27s and X28s to start and end at 23 Street. It saved a lot of money when the same thing was done on the X1. Unless someone comes up with cash, there will never be X27 and X28 weekend service again. All the changes made thus far are zero sum changes (i.e. no financial implications).

 

The X16 could work with 2-4 buses in each direction, but the MTA has to cut something to run those buses. What would you suggest they cut?

 

QM18 or some BXM4 trips or kill qm3

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Yeah and just because those people get off and walk doesn't mean that they're walking home. There are plenty of folks on the X14 that get off and get in their cars and drive home. They may just not park so close to the bus stop or they may walk to a spot a wait to get picked up. Let's not be too naïve about that many people getting off in that area. Granted some of them I know do live there, but there are plenty of them that get off and walk to a pick up spot or walk to their parked car further away. You know that there's this stigma on Staten Island about folks walking overall. That's why you see some of them running to the car. It's like they can't be seen walking because it's too déclassé or something. lol To be honest though, in my neighbourhood and especially on my block, everybody hops in their cars. I'm one of the few that actually walk to my bus stop for a relative long distance (5 or so blocks to the X30. It's usually very evident too who is doing what. The folks I see walking in my area are either too poor to use public transportation like some the Mexicans I see passing through the area from time to time or you'll have folks walking their dog or going for a walk or a jog along Forest Avenue. Now at my X30 stop there is occasionally a white lady that waits there, but it is very clear that doesn't walk very far based on what she wears to walk in.

 

Even me, I'll do the "go for a walk" thing if I'm the mood to walk and the weather is nice to or from the X10 and people can tell that you're not this poor dude by the way you're dressed. However, of late I wouldn't be caught dead walking from the X10 and it's probably because I'm starting to realize this stigma attached to walking around on the island. I just call car service and have a car waiting for me once I get off of the bus.

 

And that is why they are SO MANY PATHETIC FATASSES!!!!!

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