qjtransitmaster Posted July 13, 2011 Share #351 Posted July 13, 2011 Ok I'm going to use your logic. There's a so-called "alternative" 4 Avenue blocks away, which is roughly half a mile. All of these lines should therefore be eliminated because of their "close" proximity to the subway: - BxM4 - BxM6 - BxM7 - BxM7A - BxM10 - BxM11 - X27 - X28 - X37 - X38 - BM3 - QM5 - QM12 - QM15 - QM16 - QM17 - QM24 - QM25 In fact, ESPECIALLY the X27 & X37 because ALL of their stops are, according to someone here, right next door to the subway. And those people in Brooklyn wanted their X37/X38 back so that they could cut down a few minutes by taking the FDR? Yeah, they're not requesting UNEEDED service... -.- You do realize gorgor's comment is sarcasim right cait sith??? You just made me lol because if there is one thing you missed, these are routes that go OUTSIDE of Manhattan, some of these routes go WAY PAST local bus AND subway service and obviously more than 4 blocks. Yeah, very funny bro. And this also shows your elitist background as well, nice job exposing yourself! You try living in Co-Op City and having to rely on the Bx23/Q50 and several other lines to get to the Subway & other bus connections to get to the city within 45 minutes. The x90 was WITHIN ONE BOROUGH compared to these. Come back to me when you have a smarter logic, because that definitely wasn't my logic. You're elitist stupidity and lack of knowledge of other bus routes is getting the best of you. Know your shit before you post. WOW nuff said. That is why buses like BXM7 and the SI rtes are always full or with decent load. Once again, now you are seriously making me lol. Ok, since you say the BxM7 duplicates service, how about this, you go commute from Co-Op City to Pelham Bay waiting for the Bx23 or Q50 and then transfer to the ? You do realize that is MUCH LONGER than a ride from Yorkville to Downtown and vice-versa? The Bx23 can take up to 30 MINUTES just to get to Pelham Bay Park. The take another 30 minutes to an hour just to get into the city. If the BxM7 really did duplicate service, which it doesnt stop at Pelham Bay Park or go into Queens (lol) nor does the goes into Co-Op City, wouldnt you think that service would've been reduced or CUT a long time ago? Also, lets bring up another route you mentioned. The QM5, which goes from 260th Street in Glen Oaks to Midtown. Glen Oaks only has one, count em', ONE route that goes from Glen Oaks to a central part of Queens, and thats the Q46. That is the ONLY alternative those people have. The Q46 by ITSELF is about 45 minutes up to an hour with the and being ANOTHER 30-45 minutes. Compare these commutes with yours just to go from Yorkville to Downtown, you're self-centered moronic jackass self has it better than the folks who have to commute from these areas. Plus you have oh, I dont know..... M31 M57 M66 M72 M79 M86 M101 M102 M103 The , and trains And the ever so infamous M15 local and +Select Bus Service.... Once again..... KNOW YOUR SHIT AND THINK BEFORE YOU POST! You are just making yourself sound and look more stupid! Don't like what I gotta say, go cry to someone else! PPl out there bound for manhattan in glen oaks wouldn't dare use the subway Q46 combo unless coming from manhattan. Otherwise QM buses = faster but HELL of a commute. X90 = snobs but if that rte was profitable why was it axed??? I guess ur right cait sith the ppl did in fact kill their own line with their so called elietism. I don't know enough about the X90 to even take sides I actually am very neutral here on the express bus issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHV9218 Posted July 13, 2011 Share #352 Posted July 13, 2011 Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Sith Posted July 13, 2011 Share #353 Posted July 13, 2011 You do realize gorgor's comment is sarcasim right cait sith??? WOW nuff said. That is why buses like BXM7 and the SI rtes are always full or with decent load. I don't think he knows the idea of HELL commute but then again M15 was so slow at rush hour some LIRR super express trains from way out in LI actually make it to manhattan faster than M15's full rte that is sad!!! or the LIRR is just plain fast then. PPl out there bound for manhattan in glen oaks wouldn't dare use the subway Q46 combo unless coming from manhattan. Otherwise QM buses = faster but HELL of a commute. X90 = snobs but if that rte was profitable why was it axed??? Really kid? I think it's more safe for you to stay out of this topic than to even post in it. Unless you don't know how to read, I've said this over and over again, the x90 was mostly axed because of service that was too frequent and carried empty buses from time to time. Them people didnt even meet with the demands for service they wanted. They ultimately killed the line. You're making yourself sound stupid by comparing LIRR Super Express Trains with a bus route. I'm not even going to get at you for that because that just screams "I DONT KNOW WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT LOL" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted July 13, 2011 Share #354 Posted July 13, 2011 Jesus do I have to repeat every single thing I say because you can't comprehend multiple things at once? And let's be real here, we both know that express bus service is hopelessly fiscally inefficient compared to local service, and that problem is only worsened by the fact that specific MCI buses have to be cared for with specific seats, engines, and parts. Universal fleets cost less. What he is trying to say is SOME routes like QM3 and other weak rtes should run with regular buses while X1 and other super routes will keep the MCI buses and the weaker ones get a lower fare to better compete against the alternatives that are kicking their ass. QM3 is basically the LIRR's bitch QM3 vs LIRR biggest missmatch ever the LIRR wins ALL the time. If ppl actually knew it was $7 cheaper to use LIRR then let the god be with QM3 cause it will go the way of the X64 in terms of ridership. I asked several QM3 ppl the cost question many DO NOT know that the LIRR is $193!!!!! Most of em think LIRR is MORE than $200. Basically ignorance is bliss for some express bus lines!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 13, 2011 Share #355 Posted July 13, 2011 Jesus do I have to repeat every single thing I say because you can't comprehend multiple things at once? Oh please. Spare me with the I'm so bright crappola. MHV knows what's best always... B) And let's be real here, we both know that express bus service is hopelessly fiscally inefficient compared to local service, and that problem is only worsened by the fact that specific MCI buses have to be cared for with specific seats, engines, and parts. Universal fleets cost less. Yeah and why is the answer always to axe everything rather than making things more efficient?? Besides it is nearly impossible to have universal fleets anyway so that's a rather fruitless argument. Look at the (MTA)'s current local bus fleet and tell me what is universal about it or how it could be universal? Quite frankly the express bus fleet is far more uniform than the local bus fleet. Aside from that your statement about express bus service being fiscally inefficient is certainly not true. Some express bus lines don't cost much to run so you can not generalize the entire express bus system. You want to blame express bus riders for the not building out subways or light rails. It's the that wanted express buses because they are cheaper than building railways, so blame them, not us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Sith Posted July 13, 2011 Share #356 Posted July 13, 2011 What he is trying to say is SOME routes like QM3 and other weak rtes should run with regular buses while X1 and other super routes will keep the MCI buses and the weaker ones get a lower fare to better compete against the alternatives that are kicking their ass. QM3 is basically the LIRR's bitch QM3 vs LIRR biggest missmatch ever the LIRR wins ALL the time. If ppl actually knew it was $7 cheaper to use LIRR then let the god be with QM3 cause it will go the way of the X64 in terms of ridership. I asked several QM3 ppl the cost question many DO NOT know that the LIRR is $193!!!!! Most of em think LIRR is MORE than $200. Basically ignorance is bliss for some express bus lines!!!!! That is not what he's trying to say, stay out of this discussion with your lopsided posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
via White Plains Road Posted July 13, 2011 Share #357 Posted July 13, 2011 You're making yourself sound stupid by comparing LIRR Super Express Trains with a bus route. I'm not even going to get at you for that because that just screams "I DONT KNOW WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT LOL" :tup::tup::tup::tup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 13, 2011 Share #358 Posted July 13, 2011 Yeah, barely. The M104 always empties out at Times Square regardless, it always went to the East Side empty and left the East Side empty 90% of the time. The M42 always gets a decent load out of the West Side Pier. The M104 was more like a wet Band-Aid. I disagree with that. I used the M104 to get from Columbus Circle to the East Side and the M104s would pull the load off of the M42s, esp. going from the East Side to the West Side. The underestimated the importance of the M104. It is so stupid to have to transfer to the M42 at Times Square now. As a result I either avoid going over there by Columbus Circle or I am forced to the deal with the crowded and unreliable M5 B). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted July 13, 2011 Share #359 Posted July 13, 2011 :cool: Really kid? I think it's more safe for you to stay out of this topic than to even post in it. Unless you don't know how to read, I've said this over and over again, the x90 was mostly axed because of service that was too frequent and carried empty buses from time to time. Them people didnt even meet with the demands for service they wanted. They ultimately killed the line. You're making yourself sound stupid by comparing LIRR Super Express Trains with a bus route. I'm not even going to get at you for that because that just screams "I DONT KNOW WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT LOL" Ehh you win this time I got carried away my fault. I guess I will get the popcorn and watch the show then ding ding ding express bus smackdown vs cost numbers ppl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted July 13, 2011 Share #360 Posted July 13, 2011 That is not what he's trying to say, stay out of this discussion with your lopsided posts. Dude I think you are a wee bit too serious I actually could care less about either side in this smackdown you call a discussion. I sense way too much rage here then again I had to mod most of my ideas based on experience. Sorry for off topic man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHV9218 Posted July 13, 2011 Share #361 Posted July 13, 2011 Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgor Posted July 13, 2011 Share #362 Posted July 13, 2011 Only because he has more options, but if his commute is taking him an hour each way then that's not all that great. That's basically what my commute is on the X30 each way. Except I'm spending 15 of those 60 minutes walking (25-30 if I don't take the crosstown bus), and the rest packed into a crowded train. Only recently did I find out about these private vans which I would've definitely taken if I had known about them before. But next year I'll be taking the Transport Azumah X90 hopefully. And if there was any confusion before, about the list of express buses I provided before... I do NOT want any of them cut. I was just listing express buses that are within a mile of the subway, because apparently being within a mile of the subway is considered "next door." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted July 13, 2011 Share #363 Posted July 13, 2011 Oh this coming from you, whose defense mechanism is to claim that anybody who disagrees is jealous. And just to be fair, I apologize for being a little snotty in my response, I was sick of you bashing me without reading what I'd said. I'm gonna give you some pre-cut numbers and you tell me that express buses aren't inefficient. Cost-per-rider from the MTA presentation X1-9 $15.23 X10/11 $14.79 X12/42 $18.22 X13 $15.53 X14 $17.89 X15 $15.20 X16 $15.51 X17/19 $18.04 X18 $16.64 X20 $36.41 X22 $20.60 X25 $80.20 X27/37 $12.20 X28/38 $13.84 X29 $15.46 X30 $20.75 X31 $22.29 X32 $50.38 X51 $22.86 X63 $24.28 X64 $22.20 X68 $18.82 X90 $19.04 BM1 $18.21 BM2 $20.00 BM3 $21.11 BM4 $24.57 BM5 $23.89 BxM1 $14.76 BxM2 $22.53 BxM3 $21.11 BxM4 $27.87 BxM6 $19.34 BxM7 $11.62 BxM7A $13.88 BxM7B $28.61 BxM9 $12.81 BxM10 $14.26 BxM11 $21.53 BxM18 $22.57 QM1/A $18.91 QM2 $17.30 QM2A $17.34 QM3 $24.29 QM4 $17.78 QM10 $26.73 QM11 $19.12 QM12 $24.33 QM15 $16.13 QM16 $22.53 QM17 $23.16 QM18 $30.24 QM21 $18.03 QM22 $24.57 QM23 $34.88 QM24 $18.06 There is not a single number on that list that is anywhere near efficient. Now secondly, granted a universe fleet is a long way away, but in general, it is true that eliminating an extra part of the fleet (like our three different models of MCIs) and replacing it (or not) with something already part of the fleet is much more cost-effective. And that's just what we should do: an LFS BxM7 just makes sense. You could even through in cushioned seats if you want. WTF!!! X51 was cheaper to operate than X64 and QM18!!!!!!!!!!!! now some flushing ppl will hate that line even more. I guess my hunch was right about BXM4 a bus driver told me it was in danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 13, 2011 Share #364 Posted July 13, 2011 Oh this coming from you, whose defense mechanism is to claim that anybody who disagrees is jealous. And just to be fair, I apologize for being a little snotty in my response, I was sick of you bashing me without reading what I'd said. I'm gonna give you some pre-cut numbers and you tell me that express buses aren't inefficient. Cost-per-rider from the MTA presentation X1-9 $15.23 X10/11 $14.79 X12/42 $18.22 X13 $15.53 X14 $17.89 X15 $15.20 X16 $15.51 X17/19 $18.04 X18 $16.64 X20 $36.41 X22 $20.60 X25 $80.20 X27/37 $12.20 X28/38 $13.84 X29 $15.46 X30 $20.75 X31 $22.29 X32 $50.38 X51 $22.86 X63 $24.28 X64 $22.20 X68 $18.82 X90 $19.04 BM1 $18.21 BM2 $20.00 BM3 $21.11 BM4 $24.57 BM5 $23.89 BxM1 $14.76 BxM2 $22.53 BxM3 $21.11 BxM4 $27.87 BxM6 $19.34 BxM7 $11.62 BxM7A $13.88 BxM7B $28.61 BxM9 $12.81 BxM10 $14.26 BxM11 $21.53 BxM18 $22.57 QM1/A $18.91 QM2 $17.30 QM2A $17.34 QM3 $24.29 QM4 $17.78 QM10 $26.73 QM11 $19.12 QM12 $24.33 QM15 $16.13 QM16 $22.53 QM17 $23.16 QM18 $30.24 QM21 $18.03 QM22 $24.57 QM23 $34.88 QM24 $18.06 There is not a single number on that list that is anywhere near efficient. Now secondly, granted a universe fleet is a long way away, but in general, it is true that eliminating an extra part of the fleet (like our three different models of MCIs) and replacing it (or not) with something already part of the fleet is much more cost-effective. And that's just what we should do: an LFS BxM7 just makes sense. You could even through in cushioned seats if you want. That means nothing. And compare those numbers to say what it costs to run ferry service (not referring to the SI Ferry either). The cost per passenger for that I'm sure would be higher. Also I'm sure that LIRR and MetroNorth costs are high too. You can't compare the costs of an express bus to a local bus. They have totally different functions. Express buses function like coach buses or commuter buses much like the LIRR functions as a commuter train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHV9218 Posted July 13, 2011 Share #365 Posted July 13, 2011 Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted July 13, 2011 Share #366 Posted July 13, 2011 To the ferry? LIRR? What? No, I'm talking local buses. You bet I can compare them, and I will. Because your express bus is funded by the same people that fund my local bus. And when I see my service get cut because you need your "coach bus" which all of us are "jealous of," you bet I'll compare them. arguing with express bus riders is like starting a fight with superman you won't win no matter how much sense your argument makes. I think although the BXM4 was trash a simple rerouting and eliminating weekend service would have boosted ridership decreasing it's operating costs. The MTA runs based on want rather than need in some cases. I am shocked the X buses in SI cost so much they are all full. But then again they aren't like NJT where the lines actually make money some of em the long distance ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 13, 2011 Share #367 Posted July 13, 2011 To the ferry? LIRR? What? No, I'm talking local buses. You bet I can compare them, and I will. Because your express bus is funded by the same people that fund my local bus. And when I see my service get cut because you need your "coach bus" which all of us are "jealous of," you bet I'll compare them. Doesn't make a difference. If you're going to b*tch and moan about high costs, let's lay out all of the transportation services subsidized by the city or the , etc. If we can't do that then clearly you are just showing that you have a personal vendetta with express bus service. I NEVER hear anybody bitching about how expensive those fast ferries are or how much it costs to run MetroNorth or the LIRR. Just the express bus and don't give that BS about those services running at full capacity either because that is certainly not the case. You folks harper incessantly on the express bus and the other services get off scott free. Since you're so good with stats, let's see what the costs are per passenger to ride the LIRR and MetroNorth, as well as the costs associated per passenger with those fast ferries and then when we see those numbers, you can stop bitching about the high costs for the express bus. I guess we should all hitch a ride to work or use donkeys to get in because you've had a few local buses cut so that you can ride your local bus in comfort and have service every 3 minutes right? This is the guy that uses the 5th Ave/Madison Ave lines which has some of the best service in the city and he has the nerve to blast me about express bus service when I have NO subways to speak of. Please. And you want to talk about folks being snobs and being elitist... B) Unlike you, I would never call for cutting these services because I understand their function and the need for them. They provide alternatives to folks who would have difficult commutes without them and the express bus is no different. Express buses serve folks who are generally far from the subway, and/or have long commutes or have disability issues getting to the subway. They are just as important as the fast ferries are and the commuter trains. They help to spread out the ridership and take strain away from the subway and local buses, which are already under stress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAzumah Posted July 13, 2011 Share #368 Posted July 13, 2011 Wowsers... The express bus discussion is hazardous to one's health no matter where you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRG Posted July 13, 2011 Share #369 Posted July 13, 2011 Oh this coming from you, whose defense mechanism is to claim that anybody who disagrees is jealous. And just to be fair, I apologize for being a little snotty in my response, I was sick of you bashing me without reading what I'd said. I'm gonna give you some pre-cut numbers and you tell me that express buses aren't inefficient. Cost-per-rider from the MTA presentation X1-9 $15.23 X10/11 $14.79 X12/42 $18.22 X13 $15.53 X14 $17.89 X15 $15.20 X16 $15.51 X17/19 $18.04 X18 $16.64 X20 $36.41 X22 $20.60 X25 $80.20 X27/37 $12.20 X28/38 $13.84 X29 $15.46 X30 $20.75 X31 $22.29 X32 $50.38 X51 $22.86 X63 $24.28 X64 $22.20 X68 $18.82 X90 $19.04 BM1 $18.21 BM2 $20.00 BM3 $21.11 BM4 $24.57 BM5 $23.89 BxM1 $14.76 BxM2 $22.53 BxM3 $21.11 BxM4 $27.87 BxM6 $19.34 BxM7 $11.62 BxM7A $13.88 BxM7B $28.61 BxM9 $12.81 BxM10 $14.26 BxM11 $21.53 BxM18 $22.57 QM1/A $18.91 QM2 $17.30 QM2A $17.34 QM3 $24.29 QM4 $17.78 QM10 $26.73 QM11 $19.12 QM12 $24.33 QM15 $16.13 QM16 $22.53 QM17 $23.16 QM18 $30.24 QM21 $18.03 QM22 $24.57 QM23 $34.88 QM24 $18.06 There is not a single number on that list that is anywhere near efficient. Now secondly, granted a universe fleet is a long way away, but in general, it is true that eliminating an extra part of the fleet (like our three different models of MCIs) and replacing it (or not) with something already part of the fleet is much more cost-effective. And that's just what we should do: an LFS BxM7 just makes sense. You could even through in cushioned seats if you want. Holy crap.... Something I don't understand is why the MTA even ordered MCIs in the 1990s in the first place. For the longest that over-the-road coaches have been in existence we were doing fine without them until the MTA had a change of heart and ordered the DL-3s. Before then we were doing absolutely fine with suburban Fishbowls. Some of the private lines used suburban MCI Classics in tandem with the Fishbowls; a perfect example being New York Bus Service. Granted, with the exception of the Staten Island express routes and the X27/28/37/38, a MAJORITY of the express lines do NOT need MCIs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 13, 2011 Share #370 Posted July 13, 2011 Holy crap.... Something I don't understand is why the MTA even ordered MCIs in the 1990s in the first place. For the longest that over-the-road coaches have been in existence we were doing fine without them until the MTA had a change of heart and ordered the DL-3s. Before then we were doing absolutely fine with suburban Fishbowls. Some of the private lines used suburban MCI Classics in tandem with the Fishbowls; a perfect example being New York Bus Service. Granted, with the exception of the Staten Island express routes and the X27/28/37/38, a MAJORITY of the express lines do NOT need MCIs. The thought so. They put up notices on the BM lines telling their passengers that they would be getting them regular MCIs back when they were using those crappy Orions with the terrible seats. Clearly their stance is that for $5.50 a ride passengers should expect a little more and apparently passengers complained about the cramped leg room, etc on those buses. $5.50 for an express bus and I was basically only able to sit in a few seats because at 6'4" I couldn't sit in any of those forward facing seats. By comparison the LIRR costs substantially more to subsidize when compared to the NYC subway and I never hear anyone saying those train cars aren't needed on the LIRR. I can remember coming back from Huntington from the Oheka Castle to the city and I was the only one riding in the entire car. Aside from that all of the BXMs use the expressway as do the QMs and the Xs in Queens. The BM1-BM4 use the Gowanus for a short time and the Battery Tunnel, but the BM5 certainly uses the expressway for a while, so I don't see too many lines that don't need coach buses. From my understanding the made the decision for a number of reasons that they thought would be more beneficial overall and I agree with it. There have been several instances where they've been short on MCIs and they've been able to pull MCIs from other depots. If they didn't have a uniform fleet overall with the express buses they would be in deep sh*t trying to provide service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRG Posted July 13, 2011 Share #371 Posted July 13, 2011 That is far from the truth in terms of "uniformed" service. So what difference would it make if only Castleton, Charleston, Meredith, Ulmer Park and Yukon depots had MCIs and the other depots have suburban standard LFS'/O5s/RTS'? The higher-used routes (out of the lines I listed above) are better off with MCIs because of their ridership and distance. Plus, the OTR buses cost more to maintain and their sticker price is higher than that of a standard bus. Those five depots would have a uniformed fleet of OTR buses whereas the other depots have a uniformed fleet of standard suburban buses. Granted, the MTA did a good job of improving service by giving the ex-PBL express routes upgraded buses but honestly, the abundance of MCIs are overkill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 13, 2011 Share #372 Posted July 13, 2011 That is far from the truth in terms of "uniformed" service. So what difference would it make if only Castleton, Charleston, Meredith, Ulmer Park and Yukon depots had MCIs and the other depots have suburban standard LFS'/O5s/RTS'? The higher-used routes (out of the lines I listed above) are better off with MCIs because of their ridership and distance. Plus, the OTR buses cost more to maintain and their sticker price is higher than that of a standard bus. Those five depots would have a uniformed fleet of OTR buses whereas the other depots have a uniformed fleet of standard suburban buses. Granted, the MTA did a good job of improving service by giving the ex-PBL express routes upgraded buses but honestly, the abundance of MCIs are overkill. All of the depots that you mentioned use their fleet the most in terms of mileage and when the needed MCIs they looked to Bus to use their MCIs, which helped out tremendously to allow older MCIs to be rehabbed and fixed accordingly and then sent back to NYCT depots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted July 13, 2011 Share #373 Posted July 13, 2011 You tell me why most of the arguments against express buses are socioeconomic based??? You yourself even said that those folks shouldn't keep the X90 simply because they're "elitists" and "snobs", so to say that it has nothing to do with socioeconomic issues is total BS. Why shouldn't folks have easier commutes if the service is utilized just because they pay a premium for it? There are other services like ferry service which the city provides which is probably much more expensive to subsidize, yet express bus riders are always seen as the scapegoats. You would think NYC was the only place with express bus service. Express bus service exists all over the place. I doubt that's just a coincidence either. For starters we've got Jay Walder in office who is looking to slash service left and right and not just express bus service. It seems as if only the main corridors have good service and everything else in terms of bus service (be it local or express) is rather bleh. Bold 1) To be fair, very few people on these forums bring up socioeconomics when referring to express buses (if anything, you bring socioeconomics into the picture when you talk about taxes). Most people, like Amtrak and myself bring up numbers, but still very few of us would get rid of the entire express system. It's just that because the X90 serves a particularly wealthy area that they're talking about elitism. Bold 2: Like I said, service reductions can be alright if they are done properly. I have no problem eliminating a low-performing bus route with alternatives unless it was the MTA who tried their best to eliminate it. Ok I'm going to use your logic. There's a so-called "alternative" 4 Avenue blocks away, which is roughly half a mile. All of these lines should therefore be eliminated because of their "close" proximity to the subway: (list of routes) In fact, ESPECIALLY the X27 & X37 because ALL of their stops are, according to someone here, right next door to the subway. And those people in Brooklyn wanted their X37/X38 back so that they could cut down a few minutes by taking the FDR? Yeah, they're not requesting UNEEDED service... -.- The X27/X37 don't stop "right next door to the subway". The only route that fits that description is the BxM11, and that has decent ridership. And the X37/X38 saved more than "a few minutes" by taking the FDR. As for the ferry service, it benefits the by taking riders that would be on the train which is starting to turn into another line and puts those folks on another form of transportation. Certainly this HELPS the financially by having to perhaps run fewer trains. As for the X90, quite frankly express bus talk is generally buried. When they talk about fare increases for example on the news, express bus increases are usually left out, so not hearing much about the X90 doesn't mean nothing was going on. We didn't hear anything about the X37/X38 until the service was restored. :cool: Bold 1: No it doesn't. Since the is almost at capacity, all it does is siphon away paying customers, since they're not going to reduce the service. Bold 2: To be fair, express bus fare hikes affect far fewer people than the local bus/subway fare hikes. And my beef is also this... People calling for axing of express buses have NO alternatives in place. How do you deal with the overcrowding that would occur on the local buses and subways??? They claim building subways is too expensive, but they don't want express buses either. LOL To be fair, most of the areas with overcrowded subways don't have express buses. While I agree with the rest of the post. I wouldn't say that an Orion would be that good enough for every express rider and route, I would say that it would have to depend on the routes themselves. As much as I would love to ride an RTS on the express routes once again, the MCIs are a step up for some of the routes that usually demand it, mostly routes that have incredibly high demand. But for the routes with less demand, I'm all for Orions and/or RTSs to be on those lines like the QM10 and a few others. The way I see it, if we were to have both types of buses running for the express, it should be like how articulated routes are assigned, have MCIs run on the routes with high demand & high frequencies (i.e : x1s, x22s and other high demanding routes in the city) and RTSs and Orions running on routes with less of a realistic demand and such (i.e QM10, x90, QM12, BxM10 and so on). But for the most part, I agree with the local/express bus fleet unification, maintenance costs went up when we started getting MCIs and when they start converting suburban buses to transit buses. What is the capacity of an Orion vs. an MCI? Is it really much lower, and more importantly, are the costs much lower? I'm an elitist because I can look at a map and list express bus routes than run parallel to existing subway lines... ok sure. The point of that was that one of your arguments was that the X90 was "next door" to a perfectly good alternative, the train, but in fact some bus stops are nearly a mile away from the nearest subway station. Oh and rely on a bus to get to the subway... there's plenty of people who now have to use the crosstown bus to get to the subway, and there's other people who take a cab to the subway so don't even start with that. But the difference is that the other people are generally taking a longer bus ride and a longer subway ride. I'm sure most of those people's commutes come close to or exceed an hour. That's very true, but all of these alternatives are pretty packed, so just because he has many alternatives doesn't mean anything. This whole alternatives thing is rather deceptive. Also, since when was Crosstown bus service in Manhattan become such a breeze? We both know that several Crosstown buses have been listed as some of the worst performing buses time wise in the entire system. I have used many of the Crosstown buses you've listed and they take quite a while themselves. You're referring to speed, not costs, right? The crosstown buses are some of the cheapest in the system. So in other words, charge people more for a long commute and have them be miserable the entire time?? To be fair, the commute is costing the MTA more money than a short commute, so they should cover more of the costs. You do realize gorgor's comment is sarcasim right cait sith??? WOW nuff said. That is why buses like BXM7 and the SI rtes are always full or with decent load. PPl out there bound for manhattan in glen oaks wouldn't dare use the subway Q46 combo unless coming from manhattan. Otherwise QM buses = faster but HELL of a commute. X90 = snobs but if that rte was profitable why was it axed??? I guess ur right cait sith the ppl did in fact kill their own line with their so called elietism. I don't know enough about the X90 to even take sides I actually am very neutral here on the express bus issue. It wasn't profitable. The cost was around $10 per person. Oh this coming from you, whose defense mechanism is to claim that anybody who disagrees is jealous. And just to be fair, I apologize for being a little snotty in my response, I was sick of you bashing me without reading what I'd said. I'm gonna give you some pre-cut numbers and you tell me that express buses aren't inefficient. Cost-per-rider from the MTA presentation list of express routes with costs There is not a single number on that list that is anywhere near efficient. Now secondly, granted a universe fleet is a long way away, but in general, it is true that eliminating an extra part of the fleet (like our three different models of MCIs) and replacing it (or not) with something already part of the fleet is much more cost-effective. And that's just what we should do: an LFS BxM7 just makes sense. You could even through in cushioned seats if you want. You used total costs, so the farebox recovery ratio for NYCT routes is 26% and 23% for the MTA Bus routes. The local system isn't as efficient as you think: The average NYCT route runs at a 42% farebox recovery ratio, and the average MTA Bus route has a 28% farebox recovery ratio. That means nothing. And compare those numbers to say what it costs to run ferry service (not referring to the SI Ferry either). The cost per passenger for that I'm sure would be higher. Also I'm sure that LIRR and MetroNorth costs are high too. You can't compare the costs of an express bus to a local bus. They have totally different functions. Express buses function like coach buses or commuter buses much like the LIRR functions as a commuter train. See my comment above. arguing with express bus riders is like starting a fight with superman you won't win no matter how much sense your argument makes. I think although the BXM4 was trash a simple rerouting and eliminating weekend service would have boosted ridership decreasing it's operating costs. The MTA runs based on want rather than need in some cases. I am shocked the X buses in SI cost so much they are all full. But then again they aren't like NJT where the lines actually make money some of em the long distance ones. Like I said, it is total costs, not direct operating costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRG Posted July 13, 2011 Share #374 Posted July 13, 2011 All of the depots that you mentioned use their fleet the most in terms of mileage and when the needed MCIs they looked to Bus to use their MCIs, which helped out tremendously to allow older MCIs to be rehabbed and fixed accordingly and then sent back to NYCT depots. Okay, you have a point about MTA Bus lending NYCT buses. However what's slipping through the cracks here is that the cost of the routes between two to four times are off the charts. Excuse me for thinking that some express routes do not need OTR buses...it's my humble opinion but there's a hint of truth to it. The X90 for example was fine with standard suburban buses but when the line converted to MCIs the route fell apart, and look: it's gone! The route has been in existence for over 20 years and now it ceases to exist because of the MTA's decision to 1. increase frequency to the point the bus is carrying more air than people, 2. conversion of the route's fleet to MCIs, and 3. cutting the route instead of reducing the frequency to an average of 12-15 minutes compared to the 10 minutes the route had. I'm not saying that all express lines should lose their OTR fleet but it's clear-cut that the routes that have an operating cost of $20 per rider is hurting the MTA and the OTR buses are contributing to that problem because they are expensive, both when it comes to maintenance and even purchasing the buses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Sith Posted July 13, 2011 Share #375 Posted July 13, 2011 What is the capacity of an Orion vs. an MCI? Is it really much lower, and more importantly, are the costs much lower? Seats five less than an MCI which is about 55-58 people. Costs were much lower when we had suburban RTSs and Orion Vs IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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