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error46146

The Brighton Express

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The purpose of an express train to me, is to provide a faster ride for those who live far away, and not have to sit through all the stops on the local train. This concept is seen all over the subway; for example the E/F goes farther out than the R, the <6> goes farther out than the (6), the A goes farther up than the C, etc. In Brooklyn however for some odd reason the B Express stops short at Brighton, while the Q goes farther out to Stillwell, therefore rendering the B Express nearly useless to those going out to Ocean Parkway or West 8th..

 

Is it just me or does anyone else think this doesn't make any sense at all?

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The purpose of an express train to me, is to provide a faster ride for those who live far away, and not have to sit through all the stops on the local train. This concept is seen all over the subway; for example the E/F goes farther out than the R, the <6> goes farther out than the (6), the A goes farther up than the C, etc. In Brooklyn however for some odd reason the B Express stops short at Brighton, while the Q goes farther out to Stillwell, therefore rendering the B Express nearly useless to those going out to Ocean Parkway or West 8th..

 

Is it just me or does anyone else think this doesn't make any sense at all?

It's the same with the (3)<4>, except the local (3) doesn't operate at night while the <4> makes all stops. I would extend the (:) to Coney Island during weekdays.

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Stillwell simply can't hold that much train traffic, it can barely hold the (Q), let alone the (:). In addition there are storage tracks right south of the Brighton, which allow the express trains to be stored there. Also there is not that much of the demand for an extension of the express service to C.I.

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To me they should swap the B and Q then..B Express to Stillwell and Q Local to Brighton

 

That's a good idea, actually. Like the S62/92 and several other bus routes with rush hour only LTD counterparts.

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To me they should swap the B and Q then..B Express to Stillwell and Q Local to Brighton

 

Its next to impossible to terminate the local trains at Brighton without causing whole lot of train traffic. The means do not justify the end result.

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Stillwell simply can't hold that much train traffic, it can barely hold the (Q), let alone the (:). In addition there are storage tracks right south of the Brighton, which allow the express trains to be stored there. Also there is not that much of the demand for an extension of the express service to C.I.

 

Maybe run the (B) to Stillwell but then extend it to Kings Highway on the Sea Beach or something?

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Maybe run the (:) to Stillwell but then extend it to Kings Highway on the Sea Beach or something?

 

It won't improve anything, in addition it would delay the (N) as well as (B) and (Q).

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No, the B should not go to coney island.....

 

 

* edit: lol.... my assumption was correct !

To me they should swap the B and Q then..B Express to Stillwell and Q Local to Brighton

 

 

Sorry, your little concept you've blurted out in your OP doesn't fly down here along the Brighton, nor is it necessary..... It aint like the Q11 & the Q53 in your neck of the woods, where the Q11 is a local that runs to QB, and the 53 LTD running out to woodside - both while serving the same general corridor (Woodhaven blvd)......

 

If you have B's goin to Stillwell and Q's ending at Brighton, what is that really solving?

 

You'd make the passenger distribution b/w the two lines totally uneven down here in Brooklyn....

There would be more people takin Q's, and less people taking B's.... Guaranteed.

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No, the B should not go to coney island.....

 

 

* edit: lol.... my assumption was correct !

 

 

 

Sorry, your little concept you've blurted out in your OP doesn't fly down here along the Brighton, nor is it necessary..... It aint like the Q11 & the Q53 in your neck of the woods, where the Q11 is a local that runs to QB, and the 53 LTD running out to woodside - both while serving the same general corridor (Woodhaven blvd)......

 

If you have B's goin to Stillwell and Q's ending at Brighton, what is that really solving?

 

You'd make the passenger distribution b/w the two lines totally uneven down here in Brooklyn....

There would be more people takin Q's, and less people taking B's.... Guaranteed.

 

Well if the (:) via Exp did went to Coney Island, it would cut time off from the (Q) going there.

 

Its like the (R) from Whitehall to 71st Ave, which is like an hour all local. the (E)/(F) from Lower Manhattan to Jamaica is about 1 hour via Exp. If the (E) / (F) Exp were to end at 71st Avenue, it would be like 45min (Cutting the time from passing it to JAM), but the (R) would add an additional 10-15min to go to ether 179th or Archer Ave all local.

 

Another, the (6) Local From the Bridge to 177th Street via Local is 50 to 60min, the <6> is about the same time as its Express in the Bronx. Make the (6) all local to Pelham, and Express end at Parkchester, the Local would add more time then the Express, rather then equaling around.

 

Tho the (7) Local adds a bit more time then the <7> express since they both go to the same terminal. So thats diff.

 

Mostly error is talking about cutting time for the local and having it equal to the express based on length of the route.

 

However, the way things are right now, won't work. Demand is playing a role pretty much on this, even tho the MTA does sorta wanna cut time on routes since some of the lines are too long.

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This is just another indication that some folks just do not know their transit history, or just how to read a station track map.

 

The Brighton Beach station is a flat junction station meaning all of the track switches are on the same level - meaning that for trains to switch from one track to another, the switching train will block the path of another train. This is similar to 96th Street on the #1, #2 and #3 lines, and the 57th Street-Seventh Avenue station on the current N, Q and R lines.

 

The "rule" that express trains travel further than local trains is not a rule at all, nor was it the goal of the Transit Authority. It is simply that some arrangements work better then others due to the way the tracks, stations and tunnels were built, were built but not completed, etc. Why does the #4 end at Utica Avenue while the #3 continues onward to New Lots Avenue on a 2-track elevated line? The IRT company simply ran out of money to complete the building of its Brooklyn subway lines. One example of this is the Flatbush Terminal - it was never designed to be one.

 

In the late 1960's when the Chrystie Street connection was opened, and the IND's D-train was extended to the Brighton line - it was intended that D-trains would travel as an express to Coney Island during the normal hours, and as a local during the "off-hours". Most folks traveled then during the rush hours.

 

At first D, rush hour only QB, and QJ trains serviced the Brighton Line - with QB and QJ trains serving as the local trains out of the Brighton Beach station, while D-train continued to Coney Island. This meant a great deal of switching at Brighton Beach to move the express trains to/from the side local tracks, and to move local trains to/from the inner "express" tracks for a terminate and relay operation. Needless to say there was a great deal of traffic congestion. So much so that QJ trains were often being delayed for their arrivals in northern Brooklyn and Queens.

 

So the TA switched out the QJ trains, and replaced them with M-trains as the locals again with Brighton Beach as the terminal. That situation lasted one month - with the TA finally deciding to send M and rush hour only QB trains to/from Coney Island, and D-trains to/from Brighton Beach. This removed the need to switch express AND local trains from track to track. The through-put of the whole line improved, and a lesson was learned.

 

This same lesson was learned more than a decade before when in the 1950's the TA decided to stop the switching headaches caused by having both local trains, express trains, and through trains switching from track to track at the 96th Street station on Broadway for the current #1, #2, and #3 lines. Then trains from the Bronx, and trains from 242nd Street were the express routes, while trains from 145th Street-Lenox Avenue and 137th Street were the locals to South Ferry. I mean it makes sense that the further out stations should only get express service while those who live closer in should get local service. There were plenty of switching delays, traffic tie-ups - where no matter how the TA adjusted the schedules, adjusted the signals, etc. - there were still traffic tie-ups at 96th Street - until they just stopped the practice. For the past 40-something years - like now riders on the #1 just have to get off at 96th Street to catch the waiting #2 an #3 express trains if they want express service.

 

Do we really to talk about the 57th Street-Seventh Avenue station, the current temrinal of the Q-trains, before the lesson has been learned? Some ideas may seem "logical" or the "right thing to do" on paper - turn out not to be the case when one actually gets to the roadway and sees what really happens in the real world. A simple look at and an understanding of the station track map would have shown that suggestion at the beginning of this message stream would not work. An understanding of transit history would also have shown that the idea would not work. Over the decades - many many proposals and plans have been tried - some worked - some did not - there's really not anything that is greatly original on the subways. This idea has been tried and rejected.

 

Mike

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This is just another indication that some folks just do not know their transit history, or just how to read a station track map.

 

The Brighton Beach station is a flat junction station meaning all of the track switches are on the same level - meaning that for trains to switch from one track to another, the switching train will block the path of another train. This is similar to 96th Street on the #1, #2 and #3 lines, and the 57th Street-Seventh Avenue station on the current N, Q and R lines.

 

The "rule" that express trains travel further than local trains is not a rule at all, nor was it the goal of the Transit Authority. It is simply that some arrangements work better then others due to the way the tracks, stations and tunnels were built, were built but not completed, etc. Why does the #4 end at Utica Avenue while the #3 continues onward to New Lots Avenue on a 2-track elevated line? The IRT company simply ran out of money to complete the building of its Brooklyn subway lines. One example of this is the Flatbush Terminal - it was never designed to be one.

 

In the late 1960's when the Chrystie Street connection was opened, and the IND's D-train was extended to the Brighton line - it was intended that D-trains would travel as an express to Coney Island during the normal hours, and as a local during the "off-hours". Most folks traveled then during the rush hours.

 

At first D, rush hour only QB, and QJ trains serviced the Brighton Line - with QB and QJ trains serving as the local trains out of the Brighton Beach station, while D-train continued to Coney Island. This meant a great deal of switching at Brighton Beach to move the express trains to/from the side local tracks, and to move local trains to/from the inner "express" tracks for a terminate and relay operation. Needless to say there was a great deal of traffic congestion. So much so that QJ trains were often being delayed for their arrivals in northern Brooklyn and Queens.

 

So the TA switched out the QJ trains, and replaced them with M-trains as the locals again with Brighton Beach as the terminal. That situation lasted one month - with the TA finally deciding to send M and rush hour only QB trains to/from Coney Island, and D-trains to/from Brighton Beach. This removed the need to switch express AND local trains from track to track. The through-put of the whole line improved, and a lesson was learned.

 

This same lesson was learned more than a decade before when in the 1950's the TA decided to stop the switching headaches caused by having both local trains, express trains, and through trains switching from track to track at the 96th Street station on Broadway for the current #1, #2, and #3 lines. Then trains from the Bronx, and trains from 242nd Street were the express routes, while trains from 145th Street-Lenox Avenue and 137th Street were the locals to South Ferry. I mean it makes sense that the further out stations should only get express service while those who live closer in should get local service. There were plenty of switching delays, traffic tie-ups - where no matter how the TA adjusted the schedules, adjusted the signals, etc. - there were still traffic tie-ups at 96th Street - until they just stopped the practice. For the past 40-something years - like now riders on the #1 just have to get off at 96th Street to catch the waiting #2 an #3 express trains if they want express service.

 

Do we really to talk about the 57th Street-Seventh Avenue station, the current temrinal of the Q-trains, before the lesson has been learned? Some ideas may seem "logical" or the "right thing to do" on paper - turn out not to be the case when one actually gets to the roadway and sees what really happens in the real world. A simple look at and an understanding of the station track map would have shown that suggestion at the beginning of this message stream would not work. An understanding of transit history would also have shown that the idea would not work. Over the decades - many many proposals and plans have been tried - some worked - some did not - there's really not anything that is greatly original on the subways. This idea has been tried and rejected.

 

Mike

 

Exactly Mike. We have certain people that doesn't know what they are talking about. We call them foamers :).

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It was originally built or at least designed with all four tracks going to Stillwell; the local tracks dropping down to the lower level of W8, and then enter on tracks 5 and 6. When the Culver was connected, it took over the tracks from W8 to Stillwell, and the ramp was abandoned.

 

This did maintain the express tracks going through, and the locals ending (merging). But the problem was, the switching arrangement. Not just north of Brighton Beach, to get the locals to terminate on the express tracks; but even if you tried to use the local tracks to terminate the locals, they could not cross the plant to get from one local to the other. Ocean Pkwy couldn't be used either. It wouldn't be so bad if you could do that, because even if you still had to cross one train in front of the other, it would only be the local switching, and it could wait for the express, which would not have to switch at all. It would basically be like the (6)<6> arrangement at Parkchester, where they do still cross over each other, but without really affecting the express.

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Additionally, the Q is the only Brighton line that runs overnights and weekends. If the B went to Coney Island, there would be some stops that aren't served from the Brighton line outside of weekday hours.

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Guest lance25

That wouldn't be a problem asidrane. In the 1970s and '80s when the (D) ran on the West End, the (D) ran express to Brighton Beach and the (Mx) ran to Stillwell Av via local on weekdays. When the (Mx) didn't run, the (D) ran local to Stillwell instead.

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Ocean Pkwy is an exp/lcl stop and after it merges with the (Q) tracks, so if they only send maybe half the (B)s to CI it could work

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Additionally, there are 3 stations in question, Coney Island, W. 8 St and Ocean Pkwy.

 

Coney Island is already served by 3 other lines, 2 of which are express in Brooklyn.

 

W. 8 St is also served by the (F)

 

So that leaves Ocean Pkwy as the only station that truly 'loses out' by having a longer weekday trip to Manhattan.

 

In consideration of Mike's explanation, it appears to be an appropriate trade off.

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This is a stupid idea. At the foaming level once again. Coney Island can't handle more then 4 subway lines at once. The terminal was built to handle that much and it can only handle so much. Doing anything else would cut service. It's stupid, and this is why I hate people with such dumb ideas. Please come up with something smarter and stop coming with idiotic statements.

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This is a stupid idea. At the foaming level once again. Coney Island can't handle more then 4 subway lines at once. The terminal was built to handle that much and it can only handle so much. Doing anything else would cut service. It's stupid, and this is why I hate people with such dumb ideas. Please come up with something smarter and stop coming with idiotic statements.

 

You are making it worse just by commenting. if you don't have something nice to say, then don't say it at all.

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You are making it worse just by commenting. if you don't have something nice to say, then don't say it at all.

 

I am telling the truth. Sure it might be mean, but at least if it stops the bad ideas then I am all for it.

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Guest lance25

@RC1: Stop moderating. If you don't like someone's idea, please say something in a respectful way. Don't call them stupid or foamers or anything of the sort. You're not the forum police either. Don't tell people what they can and cannot post.

 

With that said, this thread is done.

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