LIRR And MNRR Random Thoughts Thread

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't know if you want to ape one of the most expensive commuter railroads in the US...

Sure I do.  Those people are paying peanuts compared to what the rest of us pay.  From my neighborhood a peak ticket is $8.75, not including the $2.75 for the shuttle bus, making a one-way commute $11.50, more than three times what they pay in the South Bronx ($3.00).  At least we get better service, but they sure as hell should be paying more than that.

[IAlam]

Sure I do.  Those people are paying peanuts compared to what the rest of us pay.  From my neighborhood a peak ticket is $8.75, not including the $2.75 for the shuttle bus, making a one-way commute $11.50, more than three times what they pay in the South Bronx ($3.00).  At least we get better service, but they sure as hell should be paying more than that.

you know what's sad you MNR people pay less than LIRR ppl and have better service, yet can still complain. I am not exclusively calling you out, because this seem to be a community wide issue. The LIRR sucks compared to the MNR, and cost more yet still I see more MNR ppl complaining about it compared to LIRR ppl. If you had to rely on the LIRR, you'd s*** your pants on how bad branch services are on most lines. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

you know what's sad you MNR people pay less than LIRR ppl and have better service, yet can still complain. I am not exclusively calling you out, because this seem to be a community wide issue. The LIRR sucks compared to the MNR, and cost more yet still I see more MNR ppl complaining about it compared to LIRR ppl. If you had to rely on the LIRR, you'd s*** your pants on how bad branch services are on most lines. 

I use the LIRR for business meetings on Long Island and even though I am either reimbursed for my travel expenses or given "petty cash" (lol), I always return to my office mortified by the insanely high fares out there.  A trip there and back to the city costs me easily $70.00, between the LIRR and car service unless the client I'm meeting with picks me and drives me back to the station.

[Truckie]

From my neighborhood a peak ticket is $8.75, not including the $2.75 for the shuttle bus, making a one-way commute $11.50, more than three times what they pay in the South Bronx ($3.00).

 

You have to compare apples to apples.  The $2.75 for the shuttle bus to get to the station is a steal compared to someone that drove having to pay for parking, gas, registration costs, wear and tear, insurance, etc. 

 

That in reality, makes your commute cheaper than someone that drove to the station. 

 

Not to mention, taking the shuttle bus is tax deductible where driving to the station (minus parking costs) is not.

[paulrivera]

At least Metro-North generally won't quit on reverse peak service when there's a problem during rush hour within city limits. If you're coming back from LI and going into Penn at 5pm and theres a problem at the East River tunnels or at Kew Gardens/Forest Hills/Woodside, they're going to terminate all the Penn trains at Jamaica and tell you to take the subway into the city, which is already a chore on a good day.

 

Of all the years I've used MN, I can count the times they've totally burned me with only one hand (most of those problems happened within the last couple of years, but still...) MN by far provides better value, with a better overall service (and better looking M3's, sheesh those LIRR M3's look like junk....) for a better price.

[B35 via Church]

you know what's sad you MNR people pay less than LIRR ppl and have better service, yet can still complain. I am not exclusively calling you out, because this seem to be a community wide issue. The LIRR sucks compared to the MNR, and cost more yet still I see more MNR ppl complaining about it compared to LIRR ppl. If you had to rely on the LIRR, you'd s*** your pants on how bad branch services are on most lines. 

No question the LIRR < MNRR.

 

I'm not so much complaining about ticket prices, as I can afford it (I would say you get more for your ride [as they say] on the MNRR though)... However, my gripe w/ the LIRR is how service is distributed.... Service along the main line during the rush hour is an absolute joke (while the Babylon branch get a severely excessive amount of service throughout the entire day).... The shafting along the main line would never fly on the east-of-hudson lines (Harlem, Hudson, New Haven).... 1] I'm tired of hearing, and 2] flat out don't believe the longstanding excuse of the main line being two tracked as the sole reason as to why service is the way it is.... Seriously doubt service would be much different, had a 3rd or a 4th track existed from jump....

Not to mention, I find the MNRR far more reliable.... I don't have that thought/feeling in the back of my mind whenever I'm approaching an(y) MNRR station that a train will be 10-15+ mins. late due to "mechanical problems" or w/e other lie the MTA spews to its LIRR commuters....

Edited October 13, 2016 by B35 via Church

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You have to compare apples to apples.  The $2.75 for the shuttle bus to get to the station is a steal compared to someone that drove having to pay for parking, gas, registration costs, wear and tear, insurance, etc. 

 

That in reality, makes your commute cheaper than someone that drove to the station. 

 

Not to mention, taking the shuttle bus is tax deductible where driving to the station (minus parking costs) is not.

Between the express bus, Metro-North and the Hudson Rail Link, I spent $400.00 last month. Not exactly that much cheaper than folks who drive...

[Javier]

So on the ride home a couple of days ago (Friday) I saw a two car M8 at the Kawaski Plant is Yonkers...anyone what that was about?

[checkmatechamp13]

Sure I do.  Those people are paying peanuts compared to what the rest of us pay.  From my neighborhood a peak ticket is $8.75, not including the $2.75 for the shuttle bus, making a one-way commute $11.50, more than three times what they pay in the South Bronx ($3.00).  At least we get better service, but they sure as hell should be paying more than that.

 

From your neighborhood.....to any point in Yonkers is the same $3 as those South/Central Bronx riders pay to get to the first zone in Westchester. And those South Bronx riders pay the same $8.75 to get to Grand Central, plus whatever local bus fare they pay if they're not in the immediate area. When you actually compare apples to apples, they get the same exact deal as you do.

 

And why are you picking on South Bronx riders when you can also travel from White Plains to Chappaqua (and all intermediate points) for $3, or White Plains to Mount Vernon West (and all intermediate points) for $3? And don't say you aren't picking on South Bronx riders because you just said:

 

The only thing I would like to see is higher fares for the people traveling from the South Bronx to Westchester. 

 

Riders traveling to Manhattan have more alternatives compared to riders going up to Westchester, regardless of where they're coming from, so it makes sense that basically the only route for most of those people gets priced a little cheaper, especially since you want to encourage more travel that doesn't pass through the CBD. 

 

Not to mention, taking the shuttle bus is tax deductible where driving to the station (minus parking costs) is not.

 

To be fair, depending on where you work, you might be able to deduct mileage at $0.56 per mile. 

 

Edited October 13, 2016 by checkmatechamp13

[bobtehpanda]

1] I'm tired of hearing, and 2] flat out don't believe the longstanding excuse of the main line being two tracked as the sole reason as to why service is the way it is.... Seriously doubt service would be much different, had a 3rd or a 4th track existed from jump....

 

Because of the way the LIRR is set up physically (yards, pocket tracks, etc.), you have two choices:

 

1. No reverse peak service during the peak of the peak.

2. No express services east of Floral Park.

 

Given that 2 is political suicide, 1 has always been the go-to-option for the LIRR. The worst part about all of it is that the LIRR could avoid lots of long-term headaches if they just double-tracked and electrified the Port Jefferson Branch like they said they were going to do in the '80s, but because Long Islanders want to have their cake without paying for it the LIRR has to convince people that the current setup is okay.

[paulrivera]

So on the ride home a couple of days ago (Friday) I saw a two car M8 at the Kawaski Plant is Yonkers...anyone what that was about?

Could be anything from a warranty related fix to PTC installation or perhaps video camera installation.

 

There's a lot of projects involving the M8's for the next couple of years, not to mention there's more M8's coming in ~3 years.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

From your neighborhood.....to any point in Yonkers is the same $3 as those South/Central Bronx riders pay to get to the first zone in Westchester. And those South Bronx riders pay the same $8.75 to get to Grand Central, plus whatever local bus fare they pay if they're not in the immediate area. When you actually compare apples to apples, they get the same exact deal as you do.

 

And why are you picking on South Bronx riders when you can also travel from White Plains to Chappaqua (and all intermediate points) for $3, or White Plains to Mount Vernon West (and all intermediate points) for $3? And don't say you aren't picking on South Bronx riders because you just said:

 

 

Riders traveling to Manhattan have more alternatives compared to riders going up to Westchester, regardless of where they're coming from, so it makes sense that basically the only route for most of those people gets priced a little cheaper, especially since you want to encourage more travel that doesn't pass through the CBD. 

Because people from my neighborhood generally don't do intermediate trips.  Most of those intermediate trips on the Hudson Line are people from the South Bronx traveling to places like Yonkers, and they should pay more than $3.00.  I doubt that the intermediate price went up at all when the last fare hike took place, which is an insult while just about everyone else received a 4% hike.  Why should only some people be forced to pay more while others pay no increase?  I support a hike on all intermediate trips.  $3.00 is wayyy too low for a commuter train. 

Edited October 13, 2016 by Via Garibaldi 8

[bobtehpanda]

Because people from my neighborhood generally don't do intermediate trips.  Most of those intermediate trips on the Hudson Line are people from the South Bronx traveling to places like Yonkers, and they should pay more than $3.00.  I doubt that the intermediate price went up at all when the last fare hike took place, which is an insult while just about everyone else received a 4% hike.  Why should only some people be forced to pay more while others pay no increase?  I support a hike on all intermediate trips.  $3.00 is wayyy too low for a commuter train. 

 

Think of it more like this; the MTA has to run those trips anyway, since a train making its way to Grand Central during the rush has to go to New Haven beforehand to start that trip. It doesn't hurt the MTA to fill a train that has to go back anyways with bodies, and I don't believe that those intermediate trips are exactly bursting at the seams.

 

On the other hand, running additional peak services into Manhattan during the peak is very expensive for the MTA; this means that they have to buy or find an additional train, hire an additional crew to staff it, etc. So that's why peak trips are expensive; they're expensive to operate.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Think of it more like this; the MTA has to run those trips anyway, since a train making its way to Grand Central during the rush has to go to New Haven beforehand to start that trip. It doesn't hurt the MTA to fill a train that has to go back anyways with bodies, and I don't believe that those intermediate trips are exactly bursting at the seams.

 

On the other hand, running additional peak services into Manhattan during the peak is very expensive for the MTA; this means that they have to buy or find an additional train, hire an additional crew to staff it, etc. So that's why peak trips are expensive; they're expensive to operate.

Actually those trains can and often times are more crowded as a result of those intermediate riders, so they should pay more.  

[paulrivera]

Actually those trains can and often times are more crowded as a result of those intermediate riders, so they should pay more.  

I don't know about crowded, but they darn sure ain't quiet.

 

Plus, the income that MN gets from intermediate riders and reverse peak commuters helped stave off what could have been an uglier situation in 2010 with the MTA Doomsday budget.

 

LIRR cancelled some peak hour trains, cut weekend service on one of its branches, closed the Belmont Park station (which has since been reopened) and significantly cut Brooklyn service.

 

MN's only noticeable cut was going down to hourly service during the midday and weekends, and reducing the number of cars on some of the trains. Peak service was spared, and no stations were closed.

 

The reverse peak and intermediate ridership makes up a significant chunk of Metro-North ridership, and it would be best not to drive them away with substantially higher fares.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't know about crowded, but they darn sure ain't quiet.

 

Plus, the income that MN gets from intermediate riders and reverse peak commuters helped stave off what could have been an uglier situation in 2010 with the MTA Doomsday budget.

 

LIRR cancelled some peak hour trains, cut weekend service on one of its branches, closed the Belmont Park station (which has since been reopened) and significantly cut Brooklyn service.

 

MN's only noticeable cut was going down to hourly service during the midday and weekends, and reducing the number of cars on some of the trains. Peak service was spared, and no stations were closed.

 

The reverse peak and intermediate ridership makes up a significant chunk of Metro-North ridership, and it would be best not to drive them away with substantially higher fares.

So in short, we should continue to overcharge the core riders to appease reverse peak and intermediate riders?  

[paulrivera]

So in short, we should continue to overcharge the core riders to appease reverse peak and intermediate riders?  

Yes, because intermediate ridership has more than doubled in the last 30 years.

 

Here are some numbers:

-Since 1985, Non‐Commutation ridership to/from Manhattan has increased by 124% and Intermediate ridership has increased by 245%; over the same time period, Commutation ridership to/from Manhattan has increased by only 28%.

 

-The fastest‐growing segments have been the Hudson intermediate (+264% since 1985) and Harlem intermediate (+250% since 1985)

 

-Initially, ridership growth was broad‐based, with significant ridership growth occurring in all market segments. However, since the early to mid‐1990’s, the fastest growth has occurred in Non‐Commutation and Intermediate markets:

o Non‐Commutation to/from Manhattan (+87% since 1990)

o Intermediate (+127% since 1990)

 

-This growth is due largely to a combination of targeted marketing, service and fare policy initiatives implemented over many years, as well as significant growth in suburban employment (e.g., White Plains and Stamford).

 

-In sharp contrast, Commutation ridership to/from Manhattan, which historically has been MNR’s core market, has increased by only about 19% since 1990 and now constitutes less than half of total MNR rail ridership (i.e., 48% in 2015 compared to 67% in 1984).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yes, because intermediate ridership has more than doubled in the last 30 years.

 

Here are some numbers:

-Since 1985, Non‐Commutation ridership to/from Manhattan has increased by 124% and Intermediate ridership has increased by 245%; over the same time period, Commutation ridership to/from Manhattan has increased by only 28%.

 

-The fastest‐growing segments have been the Hudson intermediate (+264% since 1985) and Harlem intermediate (+250% since 1985)

 

-Initially, ridership growth was broad‐based, with significant ridership growth occurring in all market segments. However, since the early to mid‐1990’s, the fastest growth has occurred in Non‐Commutation and Intermediate markets:

o Non‐Commutation to/from Manhattan (+87% since 1990)

o Intermediate (+127% since 1990)

 

-This growth is due largely to a combination of targeted marketing, service and fare policy initiatives implemented over many years, as well as significant growth in suburban employment (e.g., White Plains and Stamford).

 

-In sharp contrast, Commutation ridership to/from Manhattan, which historically has been MNR’s core market, has increased by only about 19% since 1990 and now constitutes less than half of total MNR rail ridership (i.e., 48% in 2015 compared to 67% in 1984).

Those stats leave out the fact that many commuters that commute to Manhattan from suburban areas of the city and the suburbs don't do so with MNRR because the fares are too high. I know for a fact that all of those people that get off at Marble Hill coming from Westchester do so because they take the subway to avoid paying the higher MNRR fare.  The last two fare hikes have put a dent into commuter patronage into Manhattan.  You have to ask yourself when will its traditional core ridership base get a break or will we just continue to get the brunt of the fare increases while intermediate riders pay peanuts.  A monthly from Spuyten Duyvil or Riverdale to Grand Central is $201.00.  In comparison a monthly from Yankees-East 153rd street to Yonkers is just $67.25.  That is a huge discrepancy in price.  

[BrooklynIRT]

LIRR cancelled some peak hour trains, cut weekend service on one of its branches, closed the Belmont Park station (which has since been reopened) and significantly cut Brooklyn service.

 

In what ways was BK service cut? Was there overnight service to ATL? Did they cut weekend service, weekday rush hour service, and off-peak weekday service, or were any of these not cut? I was not keeping up with the LIRR much that long ago..

[bobtehpanda]

So in short, we should continue to overcharge the core riders to appease reverse peak and intermediate riders?  

 

Like I said, reverse-peak and intermediate riders are cheaper to serve, because usually you can just run it with equipment that would otherwise sit idle in the middle of the day, whereas additional peak trains require much more investment.

 

 

 

Service added to a network to handle peak-only overloading is very expensive service to operate. For example, drivers usually must be paid four-hour minimums for shifts that are actually as little as two hours, and the peak determines the number of vehicles that must be owned and maintained.  Peak demand that flows in only one direction, as in the classic American single-centred city, also generates the huge inefficiency of moving all those vehicles, entirely or mostly empty, back in the reverse-peak direction.  Sometimes, peak ridership is so much higher than midday that the fare revenue makes up for all these inefficiencies, but not often.  In fact, my experience with American bus operators is that few of them have really counted the cost of their peak-only services.

[paulrivera]

The last two fare hikes have put a dent into commuter patronage into Manhattan.  You have to ask yourself when will its traditional core ridership base get a break or will we just continue to get the brunt of the fare increases while intermediate riders pay peanuts.  A monthly from Spuyten Duyvil or Riverdale to Grand Central is $201.00.  In comparison a monthly from Yankees-East 153rd street to Yonkers is just $67.25.  That is a huge discrepancy in price.  

TBH they should ditch some of the percentage based fare hikes at some point.

 

Look at the current round of MN fare hikes for CT: Fordham to New Haven would go up from $13 to $13.75, while Fordham to Greenwich would only go up from $4.75 to $5, based on a 6% increase. GCT to New Haven: $22 now, going up to $23.25 peak, and a weekly is $149.50 now, going up to $158.50.

 

The higher the zoned fares go, the higher the impact on riders.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Like I said, reverse-peak and intermediate riders are cheaper to serve, because usually you can just run it with equipment that would otherwise sit idle in the middle of the day, whereas additional peak trains require much more investment.

 

TBH they should ditch some of the percentage based fare hikes at some point.

 

Look at the current round of MN fare hikes for CT: Fordham to New Haven would go up from $13 to $13.75, while Fordham to Greenwich would only go up from $4.75 to $5, based on a 6% increase. GCT to New Haven: $22 now, going up to $23.25 peak, and a weekly is $149.50 now, going up to $158.50.

 

The higher the zoned fares go, the higher the impact on riders.

That's exactly my point.  The increases aren't being spread around fairly and at some point you have to wonder if it is worth it to keep using Metro-North versus driving.  Gas is quite cheap now and if people can find free parking, it may make sense to do that, but that causes more congestion. I've heard of quite a few people that have done just that and it seems to work out, especially if you can get a car pool going.  If you're going to keep increasing the fares, then at least allow Metro-North passengers to get a free transfer or something.  I mean it's not like we're going to see fewer fare increases.  They're going to keep raising the fare at least 4% - 6% every two years and I think after the last fare increase, that was when I actually started really doing the math and comparing.  I think you also will the subways become crushed as more people flee from the higher fares where possible and we don't have the infrastructure to support this.  

Edited October 13, 2016 by Via Garibaldi 8

[IAlam]

Because people from my neighborhood generally don't do intermediate trips.  Most of those intermediate trips on the Hudson Line are people from the South Bronx traveling to places like Yonkers, and they should pay more than $3.00.  I doubt that the intermediate price went up at all when the last fare hike took place, which is an insult while just about everyone else received a 4% hike.  Why should only some people be forced to pay more while others pay no increase?  I support a hike on all intermediate trips.  $3.00 is wayyy too low for a commuter train. 

If you haven't noticed, as so as you leave the city line the Railroad becomes the subway. Even on the LIRR most 2 zone intermediate trips are $3.00, In the city if you want to pay less you take the subway which is more or less the same. In the city the LIRR/MNRR become become premium express services. So of course your paying more.

[checkmatechamp13]

Because people from my neighborhood generally don't do intermediate trips.  Most of those intermediate trips on the Hudson Line are people from the South Bronx traveling to places like Yonkers, and they should pay more than $3.00.  I doubt that the intermediate price went up at all when the last fare hike took place, which is an insult while just about everyone else received a 4% hike.  Why should only some people be forced to pay more while others pay no increase?  I support a hike on all intermediate trips.  $3.00 is wayyy too low for a commuter train. 

 

$3 * 1.04 = $3.12, but rounded to the nearest quarter brings it back to $3. Simple math.

 

And even the LIRR lets you ride through some zones for $3 (e.g. Babylon - Rockville Center is $3). Newark-Elizabeth on the NJT Northeast Corridor Line, or Newark-Maplewood on the Morris & Essex Line is also $3 (as a matter of fact, going to the Oranges from Newark is only $2.25). 

 

And I know at one point, a monthly from the Bronx to Westchester was $59, and now the cheapest one is $67.25. (I think they might've done $59-$64.50-$67.25 or something like that). 

 

In what ways was BK service cut? Was there overnight service to ATL? Did they cut weekend service, weekday rush hour service, and off-peak weekday service, or were any of these not cut? I was not keeping up with the LIRR much that long ago..

 

There used to be overnight service. I think they might've restored it, but I forget offhand.

[Truckie]

Between the express bus, Metro-North and the Hudson Rail Link, I spent $400.00 last month. Not exactly that much cheaper than folks who drive...

 

Again, an unfair comparison.

 

I was talking about specifically, your comment regarding the $2.75 for the rail link to get to the station, compared to someone that drives to the station.  Each would pay the the same $8.75 from the train to NY, plus the same express bus costs.

 

You're $2.75 x 2 for the round trip is $5.50.  Depending on how you pay, it can be paid for by pre tax money, or it can be used as a deduction when filing. 

 

Someone that drives to the station will pay (per LAZ Parking) $4 a day at RIverdale (tax deducible).  Additionally, gasoline, car insurance at a minimum.

 

Breaking that gasoline and insurance, for the sake of argument someone that uses 3 gallons of gas a week for driving from home to the station weekly will cost on average $1.34 per day (not tax deductible).  For auto insurance I pay $90 per month for my vehicle alone.  That calculated on average to $3 per day (not tax deductible). 

 

In conclusion, the $5.50 you spend for the bus is a bargain compared to the $8.34 someone who drives back and forth to the station or as you originally put it, your $11.50 one way commute would be the equivalent of $12.92 for someone that drives. 

 

For purposes of the calculation, I only included the three largest expenses of a vehicle owner (parking, insurance and gasoline).  Additional expenses that would marginally raise that number are maintenance (oil changes, tires, etc) and registration costs.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Truckie