Should there be a 1-seat NJT train between NY/Newark and Philly?

[553 Bridgeton]

I personally try to avoid SEPTA for cost purposes.

 

When I go to Philadelphia, I use the :nec:(Metropark or Newark) to Trenton. From Trenton, I walk to (NJT) River Line and transfer to PATCO at Walter Rand Transportation Center to get into Downtown PHL. It takes about 2 hours, but its ok with me.

 

The other day on Staten Island near my house, I found an Amtrak receipt on the ground, Philadelphia to MetroPark (Iselin, NJ) , $43.

 

$43!? That is a rip off! Philly to Metropark. Idc how fast I need to get home, I woulda 409d it to Trenton or patco to the riverline then nec to Metropark. Hell that's more then the 319 AC-NY.

[ML111]

Here are some facts:

 

1. As we all know, the South Jersey (Mercer, Burlington, Camden Co) inbound commuter market to New York is underserved (NJT from Trenton or via RiverLine, Greyhound from Mount Laurel, Academy from Westampton, Coach USA/Academy from 8A/Hightstown, Coach USA from Rt. 27 and BoltBus from Cherry Hill)

 

2. There is a substantial commuter market in both directions between NY and PHL. This is evidenced by rising load factors on both Amtrak and the curbside buses (Bolt, Mega, Chinatown) - even on SEPTA/NJT. However, each service mode serves a different customer:

 

Amtrak - those who are time conscious

Curbside buses - those who are budget conscious

Greyhound - last minute walk-up fares/lower-income folks

SEPTA/NJT - mix of both + generally leisure travellers than commuters

 

3. There is a market opportunity for all of the above, however the market does not warrant (nor will political/economic factors justify) a subsidized commuter train operated by a commuter railroad where the subsidies needed to operate the train be limited enough to not cost Amtrak fares to customers.

 

Yes, you can add stops, but it becomes less efficient. Yes you can limit the service hours, but then it becomes a matter of direct operating costs and what you do with the train consist - you essentially either take 6-10 cars away from the lower/middle/ or upper corridor, or from elsewhere in the system. That's all without consideration of who and what will pay for the service.

 

Essentially, it's the same deal with a NJT bus operating NY-PHL - can't happen, as that is not part of NJT's operating authority. Their primary role is to serve customers traveling to/from or within NJ, not in intercity line service.

 

Frankly, there are enough options available to suit one's needs.

[qjtransitmaster]

Here are some facts:

 

1. As we all know, the South Jersey (Mercer, Burlington, Camden Co) inbound commuter market to New York is underserved (NJT from Trenton or via RiverLine, Greyhound from Mount Laurel, Academy from Westampton, Coach USA/Academy from 8A/Hightstown, Coach USA from Rt. 27 and BoltBus from Cherry Hill)

 

2. There is a substantial commuter market in both directions between NY and PHL. This is evidenced by rising load factors on both Amtrak and the curbside buses (Bolt, Mega, Chinatown) - even on SEPTA/NJT. However, each service mode serves a different customer:

 

Amtrak - those who are time conscious

Curbside buses - those who are budget conscious

Greyhound - last minute walk-up fares/lower-income folks

SEPTA/NJT - mix of both + generally leisure travellers than commuters

 

3. There is a market opportunity for all of the above, however the market does not warrant (nor will political/economic factors justify) a subsidized commuter train operated by a commuter railroad where the subsidies needed to operate the train be limited enough to not cost Amtrak fares to customers.

 

Yes, you can add stops, but it becomes less efficient. Yes you can limit the service hours, but then it becomes a matter of direct operating costs and what you do with the train consist - you essentially either take 6-10 cars away from the lower/middle/ or upper corridor, or from elsewhere in the system. That's all without consideration of who and what will pay for the service.

 

Essentially, it's the same deal with a NJT bus operating NY-PHL - can't happen, as that is not part of NJT's operating authority. Their primary role is to serve customers traveling to/from or within NJ, not in intercity line service.

 

Frankly, there are enough options available to suit one's needs.

brilliant man you are:tup:

[Far Rock Depot]

ML111 is right on point!

 

from nyc to philly

amtrak can go from $35 (regional) to $81(acela express) one way. but that acela will get you there in about 40 mins

 

njt to septa can cost around $25 one way total and can take 2 1/2 hours

 

ive personally used njt to river line to patco. thats around $20 one way but takes about 3 hours

 

i frequent the chinatown buses myself. 2 hours. $12 one way.

 

 

you have your leasure trips and your commuter trips.

 

now correct me if im wrong, but im assuming the op may be asking about a service thats both good on time and price. the average, so to speak. a clocker-like service like in the past would fit the criteria, but as we know, that route was under utilized and discontinued. now we have many other options depending on ones needs. my needs, i want to get to philly fast and cheap. why, its because philly is the main point of my trips. like when i went to go see TNA Bound For Glory back in october. the time it ended had me take the septa to njt route home which was great.

 

on a side note, this is the third thread ive read today. why do i always see the same group always bashing each other over disagreements? i know we here have a wide age range. the younger ones needs to chill out a bit and the older ones need to act their ages please. myself and many others here happen to enjoy the discussions here without the flaming, large fonts, caps and what not.

[161 New York]

Wow, damn. Did you keep it? I'd like to see that if you got a scanner.

 

Sorry, I discarded it. I initially thought it was an airline boarding pass and I was curious to see where this person was traveling to.

 

If you plan on using many SEPTA buses and trains the same day the trick is to buy the unlimited day pass for $11 it works on ALL SEPTA services. As a result you only pay for the NJT ticket then when on SEPTA buy your day pass with cash now you won't have to pay again to use SEPTA the same day limitless times that is how I pay less yes it works on regional rail the conductors almost never enforce the NJ surcharge!!!

 

When visiting Philadelphia, I usually hang out in areas within a one-mile walking distance of 8th/Market or have a friend pick me up. I don't think I have ever used a SEPTA service outside of the train to Trenton (when River Line isn't running). Thank you for the tip with the unlimited pass.

[trainfan22]

Seems like the best way to do the NYC - Philly trip is to take one of the slower routes there, and take Amtrak regional back to NYC.

 

I mean if you had a long day in philly you're not gonna feel like sitting on commuter rail cars for nearly three hours just to get back to NYP, the Amtrak trains are MUCH more comfortable than the NJT/Septa cars.

 

One BIG issue with taking the bus back to NYC is that highway right before the Lincoln Tunnel has the WOAT traffic, delays up to 45 minutes to a hour! If the bus gets caught in traffic it won't have any time savings over the NJT/Septa combo. If one plans to take the bus back from Philly its best to take it to Newark and just take PATH the rest of the way.

 

As a fan from NYC when fanning a NJ Transit service to Newark... it sucks when you have to get off a nice comfy commuter rail car or bus to ride the PATH, which uses subway cars and plastic seats...

 

Its too bad Septa bus map sucks and AFAIK there isn't a physical paper one. They only have two subway lines... you can ride the entire system in one day. The commuter rail, Trolley cars, and Buses is where the foam is at in Philly lol. Neoplan Artics with DD50 engines! When I was there over the summer I wanted to ride their buses so bad but I didn't want to get lost.

[qjtransitmaster]

Seems like the best way to do the NYC - Philly trip is to take one of the slower routes there, and take Amtrak regional back to NYC.

 

I mean if you had a long day in philly you're not gonna feel like sitting on commuter rail cars for nearly three hours just to get back to NYP, the Amtrak trains are MUCH more comfortable than the NJT/Septa cars.

 

One BIG issue with taking the bus back to NYC is that highway right before the Lincoln Tunnel has the WOAT traffic, delays up to 45 minutes to a hour! If the bus gets caught in traffic it won't have any time savings over the NJT/Septa combo. If one plans to take the bus back from Philly its best to take it to Newark and just take PATH the rest of the way.

 

As a fan from NYC when fanning a NJ Transit service to Newark... it sucks when you have to get off a nice comfy commuter rail car or bus to ride the PATH, which uses subway cars and plastic seats...

 

Its too bad Septa bus map sucks and AFAIK there isn't a physical paper one. They only have two subway lines... you can ride the entire system in one day. The commuter rail, Trolley cars, and Buses is where the foam is at in Philly lol. Neoplan Artics with DD50 engines! When I was there over the summer I wanted to ride their buses so bad but I didn't want to get lost.

 

Their website now has A FULL MAP of all SEPTA bus routes with that you can ride almost everything I know I tried.

[trainfan22]

Their website now has A FULL MAP of all SEPTA bus routes with that you can ride almost everything I know I tried.

 

Yea, I know that, but it would be better if they offered paper maps, how is a out of tower supposed to remember those maps? Its harder for someone that doesn't live to Philly to do a "freestyle" busfan trip on Septa.

 

Not to mention that all the routes on the map is red! Not multicolored like the MTA or even bee line.

 

 

 

Btw, its not a full map, its in sections like the MTA ones, which is no big deal.

[qjtransitmaster]

Yea, I know that, but it would be better if they offered paper maps, how is a out of tower supposed to remember those maps? Its harder for someone that doesn't live to Philly to do a "freestyle" busfan trip on Septa.

 

Not to mention that all the routes on the map is red! Not multicolored like the MTA or even bee line.

 

 

 

Btw, its not a full map, its in sections like the MTA ones, which is no big deal.

 

I am an out of towner and I understand that map better than ppl who live there!!!

You are right though

[Far Rock Depot]

they actually have 2 maps available in paper form. theres a canter city based one with the rest of philadelphia county (city map) and one that shows the rest of the system.(suburban map). if i remember correctly, they are about $8 each. i had an old city map from 2003.

[Far Rock Depot]

all of the bus and trackless trolley routes are red. the subway and el are colored like their cars (orange and blue) their trolley/subway surface routes are green and the Norristown line (rt 100) in purple. i forgot what color the PATCO line is though

[WestSideJeff]

they actually have 2 maps available in paper form. theres a canter city based one with the rest of philadelphia county (city map) and one that shows the rest of the system.(suburban map). if i remember correctly, they are about $8 each. i had an old city map from 2003.

 

Even better than that, the people at PhillyMap.com put out a two-sided, pocket-sized transit map - FREE.

One side has all the SEPTA city buses/El/trolleys/subway, and the other has all the SEPTA and NJTransit suburban buses, all the way out to Marlton and Trenton. The only downside? All the buses are in gray.

But, if you can figure out the official SEPTA map (which is the biggest damn map I've ever seen), you can figure this one out. It's maybe the size of the MTA subway map, if not a little smaller; and you can either request one online (postage might be three bucks) or pick one up at the Philadelphia main library in the map section.

[metsfan]

NJT still runs truncated "clockers", simply between NYP and TRE. The stops after nyp are: newark penn, princeton junction, hamilton, trenton. Peak AM and PM 3900 series trains have these "super-express" trains, and only lose to amtrak due to limitations of 100 mph operating speed.

 

It should be said though, that SEPTA routinely holds for late NJT trains at trenton. NJT often can't wait due to limited slots into new york penn. The 2 services actually connect rather well.

 

All that said, a single seat train with limited stops such as the keystone would be great... if amtrak pulled a shore line east/MARC and allowed transit riders on those trains that would be very cool. I believe they run hourly.

 

- A

[Mtatransit]

Would it be nice if they convert the Northeast corrider line and Trenton Line. It will be operated by Nj transit, this way people can avoid the river line

[Tokkemon]

convert it to....what, exactly?

[Mtatransit]

combine them

[Tokkemon]

That already exists. Its called the Regional Amtrak Service.

[trainfan22]

Why don't you just transfer to between the two services (NJT NEC, Septa) @ Trenton?

 

There timed to connect with one another you can tickets for the Septa train @ NJT NEC stations.

 

The only advantage the Riverline has is its cheaper lol. From NYC, both NJT - Septa or NJT - Riverline takes three hours to get to the Philly Metro area, and in the case of the riverline you'd have to transfer to a NJT bus or Patco in Camden.

 

Best way to go there by Public transit is to just take the bus there, cheaper, quicker, one seat ride, etc, I really don't know why anyone in the NYC Metro area would still use NJT - Septa combo.

 

Greyhound, Mega/Bolt bus much better than that long, tedious train ride.

 

I would say Amtrak is the best way there but... kinda expensive. And its Reservation which is kinda annoying if you just wanna freestyle fan in philly wheres Greyhound is first come first serve (Or so I heard).

[Tokkemon]

Best way to go there by Public transit is to just take the bus there, cheaper, quicker, one seat ride, etc, I really don't know why anyone in the NYC Metro area would still use NJT - Septa combo.

 

Greyhound, Mega/Bolt bus much better than that long, tedious train ride.

 

 

One word: Reliability. I will always be able to get a seat on NJT/SEPTA and expect it to be to the schedule. With Bolt Bus you get no such guarantee. Sometimes one can't get a ticket on the buses, the train is the fallback.

 

Also, I think its far more comfortable than the bus, for sure.

[qjtransitmaster]

there's something called greyhound and it's fares are so much cheaper now there is no excuse the only time njt/septa combo makes sense is if you are going to and from suburban philly ne philly and bucks county oops bus service blows there. ohh the train is NOT more comfortable than the bus as seats are harder. besides very few nyc ppl are dumb enough to even entertain the njt/SEPTA combo which is why you get a seat

[mark1447]

That already exists. Its called the Regional Amtrak Service.

 

 

Agreed! You already have Amtrak's NEC service doing that.

 

Now if you want to go on the cheap end, then you gotta do it like this. Ether..

 

 

NJT NEC + SEPTA R7 (with $5/6 surcharge)

 

or

 

NJT NEC + River Line + PATCO

 

I DID hear off someone, that the Clocker (NY - PHILA) could come back, but that im not sure. Only Clockers around is NJTs Express service but only to Trenton

 

One word: Reliability. I will always be able to get a seat on NJT/SEPTA and expect it to be to the schedule. With Bolt Bus you get no such guarantee. Sometimes one can't get a ticket on the buses, the train is the fallback.

 

Also, I think its far more comfortable than the bus, for sure.

 

 

 

True, but there is that 5% chance a connection may not be possible if a problem occurs on the Corridor. That has happened at least once, when my NJT NEC train to Trenton was stuck in Edison for a bit, and I missed my R7 to 30th Street.

 

The Bus I actually like, but more PM Night wise. Use it to go back home. (Plus I'm a Road Geek and love being on the road hehe). But during the day, a nice ride via commuter rail is better. Bus Service you have limited amount of time choice to pick compared to the rail, plus gotta reserve (Unless your spending money on those NJT South Jersey Express Service.. No Thanks!).

 

Back to rail as long as you timed it right, you wont lose a connection.

[trainfan22]

One word: Reliability. I will always be able to get a seat on NJT/SEPTA and expect it to be to the schedule. With Bolt Bus you get no such guarantee. Sometimes one can't get a ticket on the buses, the train is the fallback.

 

Also, I think its far more comfortable than the bus, for sure.

 

There's other bus services that go to Philly from NYC other than Boltbus, there's Mega, Greyhound, etc. So If you can't catch a ride on Bolt Bus there's always those other services.

 

 

IMO a old rickety Arrow III is not more comfortable than a coach bus

 

Those Coach buses come closer to the comfort Amtrak offers than any of equipment NJT/Septa operates (Not counting the SL -V as I have yet to ride it).

[Tokkemon]

I've ridden all three and they don't have the reliability of the train, plain and simple. The real kicker is the time. By train it takes 3 to 3 1/2 hours from Philly to New York (including layover). By bus, with no traffic, 2 hours.

[qjtransitmaster]

can we plz kill this topic its stupid rail is only good if you're going to the philadelphia suburbs. otherwise take the bus or amtrak done new jersey transit and SEPTA will never be as fast as the bus. just drop it already. I used all different services between philadelphia and new york I have been to ne philly just stop the stupidity

[Tokkemon]

Can we please write in English with proper grammar?