Lhota Says Railroads Need To Work Together To Overcome Maxed-Out Hudson Tun

[mark1447]

Amtrak concourse at Penn Station in New York. (Scott Beale / flickr)

 

 

 

 

 

NY MTA Chief Says Railroads Need To Work Together To Overcome Maxed-Out Hudson River Crossings

 

New York Metropolitan Transportation Authority Chairman Joe Lhota told a conference of transportation professionals that the only hope for moving more people under the Hudson River between Manhattan and New Jersey is for the area’s commuter railroads to set aside their traditional enmity and work better together.

 

His remarks came after a presentation showing rapid growth in New Jersey’s commuter population has maxed out rush hour crossings — both transit and vehicular — and that relief in the form of a proposed Gateway Rail Tunnel won’t arrive until 2025. If it arrives.

 

Which raised the question: what to do in the meantime?

 

Lhota tossed out three ideas, each aimed at boosting capacity at Penn Station in Manhattan, the hemisphere’s busiest railroad station and a terminal for New Jersey Transit trains.

 

He said the station’s 21 platforms should all be made to accommodate 10-car trains, which would mean lengthening some of them. He also said that the railroads using the station—Amtrak, New Jersey Transit and Long Island Rail Road—should do a better job of sharing platform and tunnel space.

 

Each railroad currently controls a third of the platforms, which sometimes leads to one railroad having too many trains and not enough platforms at the same time another railroad has empty platforms. The railroads also vie with each other for access to tunnels during peak periods. Lhota said capacity would be boosted if dispatchers in the station’s control room could send any train to any platform, and through any tunnel, as they saw fit.

 

Lhota’s third suggestion was the most ambitious. He said the three railroads—plus the MTA’s Metro-North line, which connects Manhattan to Connecticut and several downstate New York counties—should use each other’s tracks. In other words, trains should flow throughout the region in a way that sends them beyond their historic territory. For example, a train from Long Island could arrive in Penn Station and, instead of sitting idly until its scheduled return trip, move on to New Jersey. That way, trains would spend less time tying up platforms, boosting the station’s capacity.

 

The practice is called “through-running.” It happens already when NJ Transit trains carry football fans on game day from New Haven, Connecticut, through Penn Station to Secaucus, where passengers transfer to a shuttle that takes them to MetLife Stadium in the Meadowlands.

 

http://transportatio...iver-crossings/

[Joel Up Front]

I think the results of NY and NJ working together can best be summarized by the giant cluster---- known as the Port Authority.

[Shortline Bus]

Even if you extend the LIRR(only ones that could make sense are the shorter distances routes such as Pt. Washington or Long Beach for instance)where in NJ could you terminate at? Newark-Penn? Seacucus?

 

Ditto for NJ Transit trains? Jamaica, Woodside?

 

When the ESA access to Grand Central, for the LIRR opens at the end of the decade that will be a huge help in congestion/track issues at Penn station.

[Tokkemon]

I love his third suggestion!

[mark1447]

Even if you extend the LIRR(only ones that could make sense are the shorter distances routes such as Pt. Washington or Long Beach for instance)where in NJ could you terminate at? Newark-Penn? Seacucus?

 

Ditto for NJ Transit trains? Jamaica, Woodside?

 

When the ESA access to Grand Central, for the LIRR opens at the end of the decade that will be a huge help in congestion/track issues at Penn station.

 

 

Thanks for fixing the title.

 

I think you can send some LIRR train to Newark Penn and lay some trains there, even EWR, there is about 5 to 7 tracks south of Newark Penn, you can keep like 4 active and the others for turn around. Another being Newark/Broad St. Of course, this is up to the state of New Jersey. The only down side, is requiring 3rd Rail to extended passed NY Penn.

 

For NJT, some could lay up at Sunnyside while very light can continue to New Rochelle or even turn around some trains in the Bronx. Besides Woodside or even Jamaica. But again, Catenary will be required passed Sunnyside.

[Fan Railer]

Some good ideas for short term relief, finally. NJT and MNR are the only two railroads that it would be efficient to utilize through running though, considering LIRR's diesel fleet is unable to operate through to NJ due to the lack of third rail power in the hudson tunnels. And the MNR would only be able to operate M8's through to NJ. Thus, NJT would have to shoulder most of the through-running load, if that part of the plan were ever to be implemented on a full scale basis.

[lilbluefoxie]

It's an ambitious idea but it will be difficult to implement because each railroad has different little things that aren't compatible with the other. Sending LIRR trains to Jersey wont work since that tunnel has no third rail. Sending trains from Jersey to Long Island wont work becasue the LIRR lacks cantinery wire past the sunnyside yard area. Metro North genesis trains cant use LIRR tracks because of the third rail incompatibilities.

 

The dispatchers working together in a more unified way, that i could see working tho

[trainfan22]

There is 3rd rail in the Hudson River tunnels, they put 3rd rail in there so in the event a disabled Amtrak or NJT train was in the tunnel they could use a LIRR to rescue people and take em to NYP.

 

In this video (Not mine) you can see the 3rd rail on the right hand side of the train in the Hudson Tubes.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_p3cJojjpA&feature=related

[VWM]

Dat third proposal. That would be utterly foamtastic.

[Truckie]

The question of the day is how far out from Penn Station are the crews qualified on? Yes, NJT trains run from New Haven to Secaucus but, Metro North crews operate the trains from New Haven to Penn Station, then NJT crews take it the rest of the way.

 

NJT crews are not qualified to operate beyond Penn Station going east and MNR crews are not qualified to run beyond Penn going west.

[Interested Rider]

Three cheers for Joe Lhota for making these suggestions. The problem is the equipment as the crews can be changed at Penn Station. Just think Stanford or even New Haven to Jersey Avenue which can be implemented as the equipment uses catenary.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Lhota using his wits, again :tup:

[Truckie]

Three cheers for Joe Lhota for making these suggestions. The problem is the equipment as the crews can be changed at Penn Station. Just think Stanford or even New Haven to Jersey Avenue which can be implemented as the equipment uses catenary.

 

 

As we speak there are relatively few MNR trains that can run the Hell Gate into Penn and beyond and those are the M8's. Because those were purchased in part by the State of Connecticut, I don't think they would be too happy with them running into New Jersey.

 

Then there is still the problem with the crews. As it stands there are only a hand full of crews qualified on the physical characteristics from CP216 (SHELL) to Penn Station. This is for the sole purpose of the football game trains. You can't just take any conductor or engineer and say take this train to Penn Station. Then since you'll have crews tied up down to Penn, then you'll need more train crews to run the scheduled MNR runs and since the MTA is crying poverty.....

 

On top of all this, Amtrak owns the track rights to from Penn Station to New Jersey.

[Truckie]

[EDIT ABOVE]

 

Amtrak owns the track rights from Penn Station to NJ and from SHELL to Penn Station. Taking that into account, MNR would have to pay Amtrak for the use.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Well I dont know but maybe combine all railroads in New York under one brand. And this unfied railroad woulld use the same equipment as each other.

[theaveragejoe]

This would work if a joint order of Dual Modes were ordered.

[Interested Rider]

Let me clarify my statement as to train crews: All agencies have mandated training programs and workers can be trained to work on different types of equipment prior to implementation so that there is no problem there.

 

Where I find Mr. Lhota's comments interesting is that he is saying "stop playing politics with Penn Station capacity" and have all the agencies work together to resolve the problem. When you have four different transit agencies all competing for space in the same place and there is no more space available (or for that matter no more money). then the time for a solution was long ago. The problem is politics: pure and simple and who can get over on whom when the agencies should have been working together for years and ordering compatible equipment that would have enabled the problem to be resolved in the first place. If Metro-North would offer to pay for the second track in the Bronx and Westchester and for the Hell Gate Bridge, then Amtrak would be interested in adding the extra track. If the Fairfield County Connecticut residents would tell their United States Senators and the rest of their politicians that they want direct service to Penn Station from Connecticut with Metro-North, it would be "fast-tracked" in no uncertain terms.

[qjtransitmaster]

lhota is BOSS now how do you create the compatibility? well new haven M8s can go to nj thats new to me. So there was a motive underlying the whole time. If each region would share the cost it can work easily. The problem is you dont have so many ct folk complaining for penn access which hinders efforts.

[Fan Railer]

There is 3rd rail in the Hudson River tunnels, they put 3rd rail in there so in the event a disabled Amtrak or NJT train was in the tunnel they could use a LIRR to rescue people and take em to NYP.

 

In this video (Not mine) you can see the 3rd rail on the right hand side of the train in the Hudson Tubes.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_p3cJojjpA&feature=related

 

i realized that after i made the comment, but it was too late to edit. But regardless, I don't think the LIRR has enough dual mode locomotive capacity to handle more than 15% of the theoretical through run load anyway.

[theaveragejoe]

i realized that after i made the comment, but it was too late to edit. But regardless, I don't think the LIRR has enough dual mode locomotive capacity to handle more than 15% of the theoretical through run load anyway.

 

 

 

They would for sure have to order more dual modes or cancel run through trains on the eastern part of the system to use the dual modes through hudson tunnel service.

[qjtransitmaster]

Dual mode LIRR locomotives can enter NJT territory?

[theaveragejoe]

Dual mode LIRR locomotives can enter NJT territory?

 

 

As long as they have the equipment to travel on Amtrak NEC and NJT crews are trained to operate them, then why not.

[Fan Railer]

Dual mode LIRR locomotives can enter NJT territory?

 

As long as they have the equipment to travel on Amtrak NEC and NJT crews are trained to operate them, then why not.

 

 

Theoretically, mechanically speaking, sure. As mentioned before, the third rail from NYP runs all the way through to just a few yards beyond the tunnel portal on the NJ side. So LIRR dual modes could use third rail power to get through the tunnels, and then switch to diesel mode on the fly when exiting on the NJ side. My only question is whether or not they would be able to sufficiently haul long trainsets up the steep grade considering that their electric transformers are only short time rated. I only say this because of this:

The P32AC-DM locomotive is a "dual-mode" locomotive (see picture below) that was developed to run its electric motors on power from the onboard diesel engine (3,000horsepower GE 7FDL12 cylinder prime mover) or from a third rail carrying 750 volts of direct current and seamlessly transition between the two modes while underway. The third rail equipped engines, of which Amtrak owns 18, are numbered 700-717. They were built by GE Transportation Systems in Erie, PA with the first order (700-709) entering service in 1995 and the second order (710-717) in 1998. These units are designed to operate in 3rd Rail Electric Territory including the tunnels in and out of NY Penn Station, as well as operating on regular diesel power, thus the "DM" or "Dual-Mode" Designation. They were designed to replace aging EMD FL-9's that operated out of Penn Station. There are not enough of these for Amtrak to run their Empire service let alone sell/lease any to us and they are not powerful enough to pull a heavy train up the grade through the tunnel reliably in any case.

http://www.ble272.org/P40locomotives.htm

 

Anyways, a theoretical possibility would be to run an NJT ALP-45DP dual mode set through Penn Station and then continue on towards Jamaica, where it would terminate. Obviously, it would be nice to see NJT exercise its remaining options for the locomotive, but that is unlikely at best. In addition, they'd need to be cleared for operation through to Penn Station to begin with. But from a basic standpoint, that would be the best option for running LIRR through trains.

[jay.rosenthal]

For Metro-North, impossible to run the Genesis P32's through the Hudson River tunnels. The Genesis P32's were not meant to run on third rail for extended periods- it can be dangerous to the equipment. That's precisely the reason that those locomotives switch to diesel power immediately after leaving the Park Avenue Tunnel and before arriving at Harlem-125th St, when there is third rail beyond said station. The same goes for inbound trains- diesel until just before the entrence to the Park Avenue Tunnel. LIRR dual-modes were deisgned to run on third rail for long periods of time, but it is no longer done, since one was lost in a fire when it hit a shopping cart. I believe the number was 808 and the cause was the low underrunning third rail shoes. Good luck seeing approval of any dual-modes east of the hudson river for clearence to run through the Hudson River Tunnels.

[Fan Railer]

For Metro-North, impossible to run the Genesis P32's through the Hudson River tunnels. The Genesis P32's were not meant to run on third rail for extended periods- it can be dangerous to the equipment. That's precisely the reason that those locomotives switch to diesel power immediately after leaving the Park Avenue Tunnel and before arriving at Harlem-125th St, when there is third rail beyond said station. The same goes for inbound trains- diesel until just before the entrence to the Park Avenue Tunnel. LIRR dual-modes were deisgned to run on third rail for long periods of time, but it is no longer done, since one was lost in a fire when it hit a shopping cart. I believe the number was 808 and the cause was the low underrunning third rail shoes. Good luck seeing approval of any dual-modes east of the hudson river for clearence to run through the Hudson River Tunnels.

 

Interesting tid bit. I do think that the reason for not running the DM30AC's in electric mode for longer periods of time is silly though. And there won't be any shopping carts at the western portals of the Hudson river tubes, so that constraint on the DM's going into NJT territory is out The question is, where would they terminate??