R46 SIR retrofit Discussion

[DanTheTransitMan]

[Far Rock Depot]

Because the SIR R44s are in way better condition then the subways r44 which were retired early. 64 of the current r46 class cars will be sent down in 3-4 years. It doesn't matter how old the sir fleet is. They don't see as much abuse as subway cars. Here in the subways four boros, we will still have 46s. We will just have 64 less.

Wait, let me translate that for you:

44 still good. Age no matter. 46 there 2015. Beer good, napster baaad.

[Quill Depot]

R44's there are doing fine. My guess, 2017 as they don't need to be retired anytime soon.

[Threxx]

Um...

 

So where will the cars for the , & come from if the R46's go now?

[Grand Concourse]

SI would probably need 64 cars to replace their whole fleet. So that's 8 trains. I would imagine the R179 order can fill that void. R32s would not be retired yet or as many as some would hope.

[depotofrelax]

Because the SIR R44s are in way better condition then the subways r44 which were retired early. 64 of the current r46 class cars will be sent down in 3-4 years. It doesn't matter how old the sir fleet is. They don't see as much abuse as subway cars. Here in the subways four boros, we will still have 46s. We will just have 64 less.

Wait, let me translate that for you:

44 still good. Age no matter. 46 there 2015. Beer good, napster baaad.

I agree . Then why some riders are complaining about the R32 & R42 ( the name rustbirds lol siimilar to redbirds) that a silly topic i agree i apologized.

[depotofrelax]

SI would probably need 64 cars to replace their whole fleet. So that's 8 trains. I would imagine the R179 order can fill that void. R32s would not be retired yet or as many as some would hope.

R32 retirement will start 2015 - will be all gone by 2017 when R179 start to be delivered . The remaining left is R46. I maybe wrong you know.

[Threxx]

I agree . Then why some riders are complaining about the R32 & R42 ( the name rustbirds lol siimilar to redbirds) that a silly topic i agree i apologized.

 

Because those trains are dying. The R44's are much younger than those cars, you can't compare.

[RollOver]

The R179s are to replace the remaining 222 R32s and 48 R42s in service. 80 out of the 300 R179s will send 64 R46s to SIR to retire the remaining R44s there. Of course, the R46s will not be going anywhere anytime soon until 2018 or so. Though I recommend they should have order model replacements for those cars first and then the R32/42s but it doesn't really matter since both the R32s and R46s have amongst the lowest, if not the lowest, Mean Distance Between Failures as of late for pretty obvious reasons as we all know...

[Quill Depot]

Please don't turn this into an R32/42 discussion. I see it heading that way/

[AndrewJC]

It is currently planned. When the R179s come in place, 80 out of the 300 cars will bump 64 R46s to SIR to retire the remaining R44s there. If my math is correct, 80 cars in sets of five are the same as 64 cars in sets of four. Or the R211s (not written in stone yet but are to replace the R46s except those 64 sets of that car fleet).

 

However, I think it will be solid to have those 64 R46s go to SIR immediately by 41 years old in 2016 and retire the R44s by then. And then after the R68As (not R68s) retire, 64 out of the 200 cars of that car fleet could be sent to SIR by then. Just my opinion though...

 

 

As I've said before, I highly doubt the R46's will ever be going to Staten Island.

 

For one thing, the numbers don't work out. With only 40 of the R179's being in 5 car sets, there certainly aren't enough of them to replace 64 R46's while simultaneously supporting SAS.

 

For another, subway cars can't just hop over to Staten Island and run as is - they need to be equipped with SIR's cab signal system, and performing extensive (and expensive) modifications to a fleet of cars a few years before retirement doesn't make sense. If anything is retrofitted, it will be the R68 or R68A, but I think it's far more likely that Staten Island will get a new fleet of cars along with the R211 order.

[Far Rock Depot]

As I've said before, I highly doubt the R46's will ever be going to Staten Island.

 

For one thing, the numbers don't work out. With only 40 of the R179's being in 5 car sets, there certainly aren't enough of them to replace 64 R46's while simultaneously supporting SAS.

 

For another, subway cars can't just hop over to Staten Island and run as is - they need to be equipped with SIR's cab signal system, and performing extensive (and expensive) modifications to a fleet of cars a few years before retirement doesn't make sense. If anything is retrofitted, it will be the R68 or R68A, but I think it's far more likely that Staten Island will get a new fleet of cars along with the R211 order.

 

Wait, I thought the 40 were the four car sets. And you can forget about 68s of any kind going to SI. Especially since the conversion of 46s to FRA specs has already been done with 10 mainline 44s years ago. Remember, the 44s and 46s are practically twins. not to mention the 68s are the heaviest in the fleet, and the westinghouse sets weren't well put together systems-wise. The kawasaki sets have better system integration. now as far as the 211s, wih the 179s taking as long as they are, they will need to take 64 existing cars.

[Brighton Express]

Please read the SIR R46 Retrofit Discussion for more info.

 

Feel free to post whatever you like there.

[RollOver]

If the SIR gets the R46s' model replacements (R211s), then the order could possibly be extended to 816 or 818 cars or just leave it as it is with 752 or 754 cars since only two R46 sets were scrapped.

[AndrewJC]

Wait, I thought the 40 were the four car sets.

 

 

Nope. (And if that were the case, then the C would have to jump to full length trains, requiring an additional 36 cars that haven't been ordered.)

 

And you can forget about 68s of any kind going to SI. Especially since the conversion of 46s to FRA specs has already been done with 10 mainline 44s years ago. Remember, the 44s and 46s are practically twins. not to mention the 68s are the heaviest in the fleet, and the westinghouse sets weren't well put together systems-wise. The kawasaki sets have better system integration. now as far as the 211s, wih the 179s taking as long as they are, they will need to take 64 existing cars.

 

 

I didn't say anything about FRA specs - I said cab signaling, which would need to be installed on any cars before they could run on SIR. Installing cab signaling makes no sense on a fleet due for retirement a few years later! (And I also don't understand why you're bringing up weight, a seemingly irrelevant issue.)

 

As I said, the most likely scenario is that Staten Island gets a new batch of cars, designed for SIR needs from the start.

[Far Rock Depot]

Isn't SIR a Class 1A railroad? That means more than just cab signaling. And weight is a huge factor. Speed, acceleration, braking, and the wear and tear on wheels and tracks has to have weight factored in. It's a major concern in engineering making it relevant. It's an issue with the 68s especially since they were originally bastard units. Ask any NYCT engineer and they will tell you that the 68s are the "dumb blondes" of the fleet. Put heavier cars on SIR and they maintenance costs will rise. Not dramatically, but enough to warrant 46s. And the whole point of cars getting retrofitted os to hold out for a new fleet since the 179s are no longer slated for si. It gives the mta a few more years. If they can just order more cars, the 46s wouldn't have been brought up in the first place. 211s are a Looooong way off.

[RollOver]

Then I guess I change my mind and going to have to agree with AndrewJC...

[Far Rock Depot]

AJC, I really think you got the numbers mixed up. The B division doesn't need that many 4 car sets. The order was initially for 250 5-car sets and 40 4-car sets. Now it's a 300 car order. Where was it said that it's now a 40 car 5-car order?

[ttcsubwayfan]

It's an issue with the 68s especially since they were originally bastard units. Ask any NYCT engineer and they will tell you that the 68s are the "dumb blondes" of the fleet.

 

 

What exactly happened to the R68s that was so bad about them? Are the 68As better?

[Far Rock Depot]

The 68s built by westinghouse was a consortium of suppliers that, due to poor management, have a horrible systems integration. It's covered in Gene Sansone's book "Evolution of New York City Subways"

 

And I found the link to ENY's post about the 179 order http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/24651-r179-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=352038

50 5-car sets, 10 4-car sets.

[Art Vandelay]

260 in 4 car units and 40 in 5 car units.

If the R32s and R42s are to be replaced, and R46s were to go to SIR, and the C were to become full length, and SAS were to open, you would respectively need 222+48+80+36+roughly 60?( I forget what SAS will need exactly) cars in the order.

The R32s will be replaced.

The R42s will be replaced.

SAS will open.

You have already have more than all of the R179s taken by that. Of course, the R179s will require lower spare factors than the R32s do, but you still won't have enough new cars for a full length C or for anything to be moved to SAS. Never mind the fact that the Eastern division is growing faster than pretty much anywhere else, and already needs more trains than it has available to it.

[Far Rock Depot]

Whats the logic with so many 4-car sets?

[Art Vandelay]

Also SIR does not follow FRA regulations and has not for over two decades. The SIR R44s post overhaul were not FRA compliant (Many FRA mandated features were removed in the overhaul), and 388-399 never have been.

 

The logic behind the 4 car sets is that they will run on the C. (And out of East NY, probably on the J/Z)

[4P3607]

Also SIR does not follow FRA regulations and has not for over two decades. The SIR R44s post overhaul were not FRA compliant (Many FRA mandated features were removed in the overhaul), and 388-399 never have been.

 

The logic behind the 4 car sets is that they will run on the C. (And out of East NY, probably on the J/Z)

 

 

Wait, so the is not becoming full length? FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

[Art Vandelay]

Correct.