news Subway riders group proposes new signage for service changes - AM New York

[Fresh Pond]

Yeah well I don't think those riders would necessarily agree with you...

What's not to agree?

 

-You have a shuttle bus going from Court Square to Nassau Av at all times making all stops

-You have a shuttle bus again going from Court Square to Metropolitan Av making all stops but one block over on McGuiness Blvd at all times

-You have the B62 which already makes all stops from Nassau Av to Court Square (and goes to Queens Plaza at that which also runs at all times

-The out of system transfer being made between the and the at Broadway/Lorimer St so you can go around it

 

Every stop being closed has 2 alternatives be it shuttle bus or regular city bus. Onky adding at most an extra 10-15 minutes to your regular commute.

 

Shit, I'll go even as far as to say you can WALK from Greenpoint Av to Court Square. Done it plenty of times while I was working over there on Greenpoint, takes ni more than 20 minutes

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What's not to agree?

Those people will still b*tch about not having the .

[Fresh Pond]

Those people will still b*tch about not having the .

So let them catch titty fits then. If you go around catering to everyone, nothing will get done

[SmallParkShuttle]

It's 468 by the MTA's count

I wasn't couting Cortland St on the . I know, it's there, but not really.

 

Back on topic: it's a very delicate balance on what to emphasize on the posters. If everything is in caps and bold, then nothing stands out; if the time and date stand out more than the change, the details might be overlooked.Then we're back to square one.

 

My conclusion: RIF (reading is fundamental). If I see a poster saying my train will not be running, my first question is: when? Then I read the poster to find out. Having an idea of the current date and day helps too...

[MTA Bus]

I don't understand what's not clear on the poster. They tell you what line is affected, where it's affected, and your travel alternatives. If you can't comprehend that, you need to go back to school and get a tune up on your reading comprehension.

[Wallyhorse]

This is one of the worst proposals I have ever from you. Shuttle buses? really. 

This made me laugh. i would have fallen out of my chair had i been in one.

My point was it was the one alternative to the constant weekend shutdowns the was having.

 

What I noted actually was done for SEVERAL YEARS while they rebuilt the western end of the Market-Frankford El in Philly where most of the entire line had two extended shutdowns each summer during that time: One for nine days, the other for 16 (plus other weekend shutdowns).  That was what I was referring to as an alternative to having the shut down as often as it was.  It did create inconveniences, but it was well done.

[AndrewJC]

Just when you thought New Yorkers couldn't get any more dense than what they already are...

 

...I mean they hang up those posters every Wednesday or so, they post up the disruptions for the entire system on the backs of those huge maps on platforms AND on the walls near turnstiles in clear sight. They make announcements about it on buses. Hell, they even have a website with an interactive map that tells you exactly what's gonna be messed up (and a ton of apps that do the same), hell, the website itself gives you directions around wherever they working at. What more do they want...

 

I think the issue is one of information overload. There's so much information on the signs that it's hard to tell at a glance what is relevant right now. Remember - most people here (myself included) keep close tabs on all the work that's going on around the system, but the average rider has no interest in work that doesn't affect their trips.

 

I don't think the current signage is terrible, but I don't doubt that there's room for improvement. I think the multipage list of changes is very helpful, since it's organized by day of the week, but I gather that most riders don't even know about it.

 

Well he should probably quote me if he wants me to know that he is talking to me, otherwise unless I check the actual thread, I have no way of knowing.  I'm not a transit planner and I don't pretend to be.  I speak as a general rider and always have, and speak on behalf of what riders outside of this forum think and say. The claims that they work with the communities that are affected by the shutdowns, and each case is on an individual basis.  In my mind, the complexity of the system is not an excuse to keep up the status quo.  The guys making the decisions are paid big bucks for a reason, and that's to be creative and come up with new ways to do these projects faster and quicker.  The population here continues to grow and the fact of the matter is more and more people will need to use the system and not just during the week. 

 

I for example support the current shutdown project that will start tonight. It's 5 weeks of pain for those riders, but the 's job is to make people aware and let them figure out what alternatives work best for them.  The work needs to be done and done quickly and efficiently, and hopefully the job will be completed on time if not before. This will hopefully mean that the doesn't have to be knocked out again constantly going forward.

 

Given how much you write here and your particular interest in that thread, I'm surprised you didn't see it yourself.

 

The G runs short trains relatively infrequently (9 tph at most). During the peak hour, the G carries an average of 500 people past the peak load point - that's 4,500 people per hour - and that's in the spring; the numbers are lower in August. Most of those people are traveling to Court Square to connect with the E/M/7 to reach Manhattan, and they'll find other ways to get there. Some are actually traveling to Queens, and they'll be on the shuttle buses. Only two stations will be without subway service at all, and one of them is a few blocks from the 7 train.

 

Let's consider some other parts of the system that have had a lot of GO's lately. The Flushing line has had a lot of GO's, due to CBTC. The Queens Boulevard line has also had a lot of GO's, due to interlocking modernization leading up to CBTC. The GO's are seriously inconvenient for the riders, but ultimately there's enough alternative service to get them where they're going. But what would happen if the lines were shut down during rush hours, when trains are carrying upwards of 1,000 riders each, with close to 30 tph on Flushing and 50 tph on Queens Boulevard? How would they be able to reach their destinations? The answer is that many wouldn't. There is simply no way to run enough shuttle buses to carry more than a small fraction of the riders of those lines. And the alternative routes that serve many of them during weekend GO's are already oversubscribed during rush hours with their own regular riders.

 

Where full 24/7 shutdowns are feasible, they're already done. They're often not feasible.

 

As for the Weekender being used for weekday/late night service disruptions, if it helps, why not. Personally, I'd be pushing for a map that shows actual weekend service, including service diversions, like the one I put out every week, rather than the flashing dots approach the MTA uses to show any station with a service disruption.

 

Absolutely. (That's your map? Maybe I'm late to the game, but I had no idea. I like it a lot!)

 

Those people will still b*tch about not having the .

 

But they'll be able to get where they're going, with a good deal of inconvenience. On many other lines, there'd be no way to accommodate the rush hour ridership.

My point was it was the one alternative to the constant weekend shutdowns the was having.

 

What I noted actually was done for SEVERAL YEARS while they rebuilt the western end of the Market-Frankford El in Philly where most of the entire line had two extended shutdowns each summer during that time: One for nine days, the other for 16 (plus other weekend shutdowns).  That was what I was referring to as an alternative to having the shut down as often as it was.  It did create inconveniences, but it was well done.

 

The L carries over 20,000 riders into Manhattan in the peak hour, and even if 20,000 riders per hour could be handled on a shuttle bus (at an average of 50 people per bus, that's 400 buses per hour!), there's no reasonable route for a shuttle bus - the Williamsburg Bridge is too far south and the Queens-Midtown Tunnel is too far north.

 

A rush hour L shutdown would place incredible pressure on other lines - the J/M/Z to the south, the E/M/7 to the north, and the G connecting them all - that would be very difficult if not impossible to manage.

[Orion V 9441]

Those people will still b*tch about not having the .

I also bet that if the recieved the R160s (which didn't happen), they would also b*tch as soon as the line reverted back to using R68/As. It seems like nothing can satisfy those riders short of receiving 10-car R160s at 4 minute intervals 24/7 (I'm exaggerating, but that is the point). Either way, just put up with the shuttle, or plan a new route. I have done that when I have travelled to New York, and you don't see me complaining.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I also bet that if the recieved the R160s (which didn't happen), they would also b*tch as soon as the line reverted back to using R68/As. It seems like nothing can satisfy those riders short of receiving 10-car R160s at 4 minute intervals 24/7 (I'm exaggerating, but that is the point). Either way, just put up with the shuttle, or plan a new route. I have done that when I have travelled to New York, and you don't see me complaining.

Well they did have a legitimate gripe with the short cars situation.  Considering the lack of frequency that the had back in the day it made no sense to have so few cars as they were packed.  I had a friend whose girlfriend lived in Greenpoint and when we visited her to help her move it was no picnic with the .

[realizm]

From a broader perspective over the years many people felt ripped off when the Queens Blvd/63rd Street connector opened to the public. Jamaica yard at the time was deploying R32s and R46's in 8 or ten car sets on the G. They chopped the car consists to 6 then only four R46 consists because Jamaica Yard did not have enough cars to operate the V.

 

They were supposed to allow trains to terminate at Forest Hills but eventually they managed to stifle their way out and permanently cut back G service.

 

That's why we are talking about G service at the moment.

[Wallyhorse]

 

The L carries over 20,000 riders into Manhattan in the peak hour, and even if 20,000 riders per hour could be handled on a shuttle bus (at an average of 50 people per bus, that's 400 buses per hour!), there's no reasonable route for a shuttle bus - the Williamsburg Bridge is too far south and the Queens-Midtown Tunnel is too far north.

 

A rush hour L shutdown would place incredible pressure on other lines - the J/M/Z to the south, the E/M/7 to the north, and the G connecting them all - that would be very difficult if not impossible to manage.

As said, this was simply listed as an alternative.  Your point shows WHY you have to do it the way you do.

[Lance]

An update: http://www.pcac.org/2014/07/23/nyctrc-report-released-every-which-way-but-direct/

 

Here are a couple of examples of what the NYCTRC wants in terms of service advisory posters.

page 19 of http://www.pcac.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Every-Which-Way_Final-Report-for-Web.pdf

 

As for expanding the Weekender to include a six-month look ahead, that would be pretty useless. Most G.O.s aren't scheduled that far in advance. The only ones I can think of are the CBTC diversions on Flushing and FASTRACK. There have been notices about the Queens Blvd Interlocking project, but specific dates are hard to come by if you're looking for anything past a month in advance.

 

Absolutely. (That's your map? Maybe I'm late to the game, but I had no idea. I like it a lot!)

Just so we're clear, you mean the ones I post here, right? If so, thanks. I put these maps out because I feel riders would want to see service at a glance and not have to click on a station or line to see what a particular line is doing at the time. That's the thing I don't like about the current Weekender. All those flashing dots do is indicate that something is happening at a station.

 

When the Weekender was announced a few years ago, I thought it was going to be something along the lines of a live map that showed service changes, at least those scheduled for the weekend that is. I mean, that's why they used the Vignelli map, right? It would in theory be easier to make using a schematic map than it would on the current subway map. But alas, when it actually debuted, we got Flashing Lights instead of anything really useful.

[N6 Limited]

An update: http://www.pcac.org/2014/07/23/nyctrc-report-released-every-which-way-but-direct/

 

Here are a couple of examples of what the NYCTRC wants in terms of service advisory posters.

page 19 of http://www.pcac.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Every-Which-Way_Final-Report-for-Web.pdf

 

Those examples are pretty good. The MTA almost never lists alternative bus routes or anything. 

 

For example, If Jamaica bound trains are skipping Sutphin Blvd, why would someone have to get on a Manhattan bound to Union Turnpike to head back to 179th st when the advisory can suggest the Q43? 

 

A real example is for the when they were running shuttle busses on Fulton St, why didn't they list the B65, B52, B26, etc as alternatives.? (not all riders are riding thru from end to end of the outage, in that case they could take the J or L. but for more local trips to/from Jay Street those other buses could have been used. Especially since people walk up to Gates and/or down to Bergen from Fulton St)

 

Diagrams are usually only used for fast track also.

[realizm]

Thats true, that doesnt make sense to me either. They can simply bump up Q43 service for the F service diversion to make up for it. Therefore they can announce that there is two alternatives not just one where they have to go two whole stops to get the Jamaica bound. Never understood that in regards to the Hillside Ave Line GOs. 

[N6 Limited]

Thats true, that doesnt make sense to me either. They can simply bump up Q43 service for the F service diversion to make up for it. Therefore they can announce that there is two alternatives not just one where they have to go two whole stops to get the Jamaica bound. Never understood that in regards to the Hillside Ave Line GOs. 

Most of the time they don't want to increase service. But since its only a few stations the Q43 should be able to handle additional riders.

[realizm]

Most of the time they don't want to increase service. But since its only a few stations the Q43 should be able to handle additional riders.

 

Had a feeling so. Operation costs.

[AndrewJC]

Well they did have a legitimate gripe with the short cars situation.  Considering the lack of frequency that the had back in the day it made no sense to have so few cars as they were packed.  I had a friend whose girlfriend lived in Greenpoint and when we visited her to help her move it was no picnic with the .

 

Frequency of service or length of train isn't determined by whether Via Garibaldi 8 (or any other individual) deems a train to be "packed." It's determined by whether loads are within the official NYCT loading guidelines. During rush hours, most riders at the peak load point on any line should expect to stand - like it or not, the loading guidelines during rush hours call for more standees than sitting passengers.

 

The counts that were taken last year certainly match my own experiences. The heaviest loads were on northbound trains at Greenpoint in the AM rush, and they were only filled to 86% of guideline. Crowded, certainly, but not overcrowded.

 

As for the supposed lack of frequency - 9 tph in the morning rush, 7.5 tph in the afternoon rush, and 6 tph for most off-peak periods hardly seems unreasonable to me. And I've found that 

 

From a broader perspective over the years many people felt ripped off when the Queens Blvd/63rd Street connector opened to the public. Jamaica yard at the time was deploying R32s and R46's in 8 or ten car sets on the G. They chopped the car consists to 6 then only four R46 consists because Jamaica Yard did not have enough cars to operate the V.

 

They were supposed to allow trains to terminate at Forest Hills but eventually they managed to stifle their way out and permanently cut back G service.

 

That's why we are talking about G service at the moment.

 

It's time for a history lesson, folks.

 

The GG used to run full-time as a Queens Blvd. local, until 1977, when it was cut back to Queens Plaza at night. In 1987, the G (it lost its second letter two years prior) was cut back to Queens Plaza weekends as well, with the R running 24/7 to Continental (the F was also cut back at this time, to 57/6).

 

In 1988, the passageway connecting the Court Square G station to the 23rd-Ely E/F station opened. By this time, 63rd Street connector planning was already under way, and around this time (yes, already back in the 1980's!), Court Square was identified as the future 24/7 terminal for the G.

 

Due to 60th Street tube work from 1990 to 1992, the G temporarily replaced the R nights and weekends on Queens Blvd. Following this work, the G was cut back on weekends to Queens Plaza - but only until 1996, when weekend G service was cut back to Court Square to accommodate 63rd Street connector construction - this was the first use of Court Square as a terminal. The following year, the overnight G was also cut back to Court Square, and the E and F began making local stops in Queens at night.

 

So, by the late 1990's, the G was running weekdays to Continental, nights and weekends to Court Square. Weekend service was 4 car OPTO; on weekdays, 6 car trains ran. Weekday trains ran on 10 minute headways (6 tph) pretty much straight through the rush.

 

In early 2001, the 63rd Street connector service plan, which called for the 24/7 Court Square terminal, was presented to the public, but there were complaints about the service not running through. The G clearly couldn't run past Court Square during rush hours, due to both track capacity constraints and car constraints, but it could run through nights and weekends when GO's didn't conflict. The only problem is that GO's conflicted quite often. The planners didn't want to provide a service that would rarely run, but this service plan was forced through politically, and that's how we ended up with a G that ran to Continental on weekends on paper but rarely in reality. It was never part of the plan.

 

Now, how about train lengths? Recall that the 6 car G used to run every 10 minutes. That's 6 x 6 = 36 cars per hour. When the 63rd St. connector opened in late 2001, this was changed to a 4 car G at 9 tph in the morning rush (when trains were, and are, most crowded) - that's 4 x 9 = 36 cars per hour. Same capacity over the full hour, but in shorter, more frequent trains!

 

Why the change? Two reasons. First, the transition from 6 car trains to 4 car trains for OPTO every Friday night, and back again Monday morning, was unnecessarily labor intensive, and it wouldn't be necessary anymore with 4 car trains around the clock. Second, with service not running past Court Square, the stairways off the platform would have been overwhelmed with a 6 car trainload every 10 minutes - by running shorter trains more frequently, the exit flows became more manageable. The G was shortened from 6 cars to 4 cars because of a desire to run more frequent service, not because the cars were needed for the V - the G needed the same number of cars either way!

 

As said, this was simply listed as an alternative.  Your point shows WHY you have to do it the way you do.

 

If it's not a practical alternative, then why do you bother to mention it?

 

Just so we're clear, you mean the ones I post here, right? If so, thanks. I put these maps out because I feel riders would want to see service at a glance and not have to click on a station or line to see what a particular line is doing at the time. That's the thing I don't like about the current Weekender. All those flashing dots do is indicate that something is happening at a station.

 

When the Weekender was announced a few years ago, I thought it was going to be something along the lines of a live map that showed service changes, at least those scheduled for the weekend that is. I mean, that's why they used the Vignelli map, right? It would in theory be easier to make using a schematic map than it would on the current subway map. But alas, when it actually debuted, we got Flashing Lights instead of anything really useful.

 

Yes, that's the one. Great work! I agree that the Vignelli Weekender is pretty pointless.

 

Those examples are pretty good. The MTA almost never lists alternative bus routes or anything. 

 

For example, If Jamaica bound trains are skipping Sutphin Blvd, why would someone have to get on a Manhattan bound to Union Turnpike to head back to 179th st when the advisory can suggest the Q43? 

 

A real example is for the when they were running shuttle busses on Fulton St, why didn't they list the B65, B52, B26, etc as alternatives.? (not all riders are riding thru from end to end of the outage, in that case they could take the J or L. but for more local trips to/from Jay Street those other buses could have been used. Especially since people walk up to Gates and/or down to Bergen from Fulton St)

 

Sometimes alternative buses are listed. But if too many subway riders try to clamber onto a regular local bus, either they won't fit (and will be upset that they were directed to an alternative that couldn't accommodate them) or, even worse, they won't leave any room for the regular riders.

 

Thats true, that doesnt make sense to me either. They can simply bump up Q43 service for the F service diversion to make up for it. Therefore they can announce that there is two alternatives not just one where they have to go two whole stops to get the Jamaica bound. Never understood that in regards to the Hillside Ave Line GOs. 

 

Supplemental bus service (whether shuttle buses or extra service on existing routes) is necessary if some stations aren't served at all, but as long as they're served in one direction, I can't see the justification in paying for the extra bus service.

[Tokkemon]

Well done AndrewJC! One of the best posts I've seen on here in a while.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Frequency of service or length of train isn't determined by whether Via Garibaldi 8 (or any other individual) deems a train to be "packed." It's determined by whether loads are within the official NYCT loading guidelines. During rush hours, most riders at the peak load point on any line should expect to stand - like it or not, the loading guidelines during rush hours call for more standees than sitting passengers.

 

The counts that were taken last year certainly match my own experiences. The heaviest loads were on northbound trains at Greenpoint in the AM rush, and they were only filled to 86% of guideline. Crowded, certainly, but not overcrowded.

 

As for the supposed lack of frequency - 9 tph in the morning rush, 7.5 tph in the afternoon rush, and 6 tph for most off-peak periods hardly seems unreasonable to me. And I've found that 

 

Someone needs a reading lesson... That whole post of yours was unnecessary seeing that you're talking about now and I was talking about loads in the past.  

[Fan Railer]

Someone needs a reading lesson... That whole post of yours was unnecessary seeing that you're talking about now and I was talking about loads in the past.  

Unnecessary or not, his reply to your post was informative and interesting, and I for one, appreciated it. Seems like you're just butthurt because he called you out in the process of typing his reply. Get over it. You should be used to this by now lol.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Unnecessary or not, his reply to your post was informative and interesting, and I for one, appreciated it. Seems like you're just butthurt because he called you out in the process of typing his reply. Get over it. You should be used to this by now lol.

Good for you.  And no there was nothing to be butthurt about because he didn't call me out on anything. He's talking about 2013, and I was talking about a time well before then so of course our experiences would be different.  That's only natural.  Greenpoint has exploded in terms of population and there have been significant improvements on the since that time.

[TheKorean]

Can they at least explain briefly why service change is needed?

[nightmare402]

Can they at least explain briefly why service change is needed?

they say it on the mta press release

[Lance]

Can they at least explain briefly why service change is needed?

If I'm not mistaken, they used to post the reasons behind the service changes on the posters. They stopped years ago because to most riders, it all boiled down to "track work". Most riders didn't know or care about the actual reason why service was disrupted, so the MTA took to simply putting something along the lines of "maintaining the tracks" for all service advisory posters, even when that phrase didn't make sense. Maybe that's changed in the intervening years, but I'm willing to bet it really hasn't. For the big service changes like the Queens Blvd interlocking or Flushing CBTC projects, sure, posting information as to why service keeps getting disrupted almost every weekend is ideal as to convey what's going on. However, the reasons behind the other more mundane service disruptions will likely go over most riders' heads, and that's if they even care. Take for instance what was posted on the MTA's website for why downtown trains were running express last weekend:

 

 

 

From 11:45 p.m. Friday, August 1 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, August 4, South Ferry-bound  trains run express from 145 St to 96 St due to CPM repair work on portal and elevated steel structure near 125 St.

Do you think the average rider knows what CPM repair is, much less cares about it? I sure as hell don't. Like I said before, they'll likely just put track or structure maintenance for almost every disruption and we'll be right back at square one with them removing the "reasoning" on the service advisory posters once again.

[AndrewJC]

Someone needs a reading lesson... That whole post of yours was unnecessary seeing that you're talking about now and I was talking about loads in the past.  

 

Apparently the six people who upvoted my post and the two who replied that it was interesting disagree. If you don't want to read my posts, go right ahead and don't.

 

Good for you.  And no there was nothing to be butthurt about because he didn't call me out on anything. He's talking about 2013, and I was talking about a time well before then so of course our experiences would be different.  That's only natural.  Greenpoint has exploded in terms of population and there have been significant improvements on the since that time.

 

As you say, ridership has gone up on the G (I wouldn't say exploded, however). But frequencies weren't touched on the G between 2001 and 2013, aside from an improvement in evening headways when the line was pulled off of Queens Boulevard in 2010. Trains were significantly more crowded in 2013 then they had been for many years prior - and they still weren't overcrowded by NYCT guidelines.