Mayor to ask MTA to study Brooklyn subway expansion

[JayJay85]

The IRT Eastern Parkway line is better option to have the Utica Avenue line connect to then using IND fulton st becasue fulton st line has less capacity then IRT Eastern Parkway Line due to Fulton Street only uses Cranberry st tunnel and Eastern Parkway Line uses clark st and 4/5 tunnels.

Also there's a bellmonth east of Utica st station that curves into Utica Av. Utica Avenue can serve as an rerouted of the to Kings Plaza since the bellmonths leads to local tracks, can served New Lots all times.

A yard should be built in Floyd Bennett Field Area

[Roadcruiser1]

I prefer extending the instead. I rather see the extended into Queens, and up around J.F.K. Airport since it's pretty much a straight line from New Lots Avenue.

[CenSin]

I prefer extending the instead. I rather see the extended into Queens, and up around J.F.K. Airport since it's pretty much a straight line from New Lots Avenue.

The most natural path for the to follow is actually along Eastern Parkway or East New York Avenue. Ostensibly, the would end up at either Broadway Junction for a connection with the , or Atlantic Avenue for a connection with the LIRR and the .

 

In the past, there were unambitious plans to merely terminate the express tracks at Buffalo Avenue. The current express tracks end at Ralph Avenue (the next avenue east of Buffalo Avenue), so all that would need to be done is to build a station there which I highly doubt would happen given the questionable utility of such a station.

 

If the were to assume responsibility for Utica Avenue, the express tracks would first have to duck underneath two levels of tracks. The ramp taking the express tracks low enough to cross under the local tracks would be long enough that it would take the train past Utica Avenue, so a wide curve would be needed to take the train back under Utica Avenue. The hassles of engineering such a junction would make the the best candidate for the role. In that case, the could easily take over the current ’s route to New Lots Avenue since the track connections are already there.

[Eric B]

The train portal is 2 (long) blocks away from Utica Av. Just for it to come back to Utica, it would either have to loop around Lincoln Terrace park, or build a while new level to Utica Av so trains can turn on the street without going in a loop.

I too had noticed how close the portal was to the area I was talking about. So that actually wouldn't be that much of diversion; to simply have the tail tracks extend out the portal (where they end anyway), and then they could just run down East New York Ave. and pick up Utica from there, already elevated.

(This assuming the line would branch off of the IRT anyway. If they ever were to do something like this, that's probably what they would go with, as it's less distance for new construction, and you already have tracks ending there to be extended, and bellmouths, etc. If it went past there, it would require a lot of construction to tie into the existing IND, as it was designed to pass over that line and continue to S4th, and they certainly aren't going to try to build that much of the Second System!)

[bobtehpanda]

Exactly.  If you are going to do three tracks you might as well do four to provide full express service at all times.

 

This is actually an even worse idea, since there isn't exactly anywhere for express trains to go past Utica. Where the hell are they going to go, the Rockaways?

[CenSin]

Exactly.  If you are going to do three tracks you might as well do four to provide full express service at all times.

Rather than for express service, a third track would primarily be for service disruptions, reroutes, and out-of-service trains. The flexibility is a much more important characteristic than speed of service when costs are concerned.

 

However, the Utica Avenue line was envisioned as a 4-tracked line, and provisions should be left for all 4 tracks. Perhaps construction could be done on just one side of the street line the 4 Avenue line south of 59 Street. When express service is warranted, build the other half and convert one of the local tracks for express service.

[Fresh Pond]

I too had noticed how close the portal was to the area I was talking about. So that actually wouldn't be that much of diversion; to simply have the tail tracks extend out the portal (where they end anyway), and then they could just run down East New York Ave. and pick up Utica from there, already elevated.

(This assuming the line would branch off of the IRT anyway. If they ever were to do something like this, that's probably what they would go with, as it's less distance for new construction, and you already have tracks ending there to be extended, and bellmouths, etc. If it went past there, it would require a lot of construction to tie into the existing IND, as it was designed to pass over that line and continue to S4th, and they certainly aren't going to try to build that much of the Second System!)

The portal comes out right behind the tennis courts (aptly named Portal St), and petty much lines up with E. 98 St. A line coming off there could (theoretically) hang a right on ENY Av, then hang the left on Utica. It would petty much be a big backtrack just to get back to Utica Av.

 

I originally said making a new level under the current station, the plus being there's plenty of room under Eastern Pkwy since the trains use the south (eastbound) side of the street. A new flying junction could be built and come up under the mainline tracks.

 

The bad part of it would be nightmare of construction just to do it. With now 3 levels of the station (the Utica Av branch would be under the Manhattan bound track, which is already under the New Lots track), new flying junctions would have to be built and essentially the whole area would have to be redesigned.

 

Or just say screw it and build a brand new B division line. Have it terminate at the current Utica Av station with 2 tracks that go straight and turn east to connect with the local tracks for Pitkin Yard access.

[RailRunRob]

The IRT Eastern Parkway line is better option to have the Utica Avenue line connect to then using IND fulton st becasue fulton st line has less capacity then IRT Eastern Parkway Line due to Fulton Street only uses Cranberry st tunnel and Eastern Parkway Line uses clark st and 4/5 tunnels.

Also there's a bellmonth east of Utica st station that curves into Utica Av. Utica Avenue can serve as an rerouted of the to Kings Plaza since the bellmonths leads to local tracks, can served New Lots all times.

A yard should be built in Floyd Bennett Field Area

No one has yet to mention a solution for Rogers Junction.. Backing there plans for A Eastern Parkway connection. 

How do Joralemon and Clark tubes..Feeding the NewLots/Nostand lines Differ from the Rutgers and Cranberry feeding into the Fulton/Culver?

Once again to reiterate Hoyt-Schemrehorn is 6 tracks. There are at least 5 Service combinations you can work from that solution.  Rockaways to Hoyt or Court street via Local. Kings Plaza to Hoyt/Court street via Local.. to Kings Plaza. It's not at all complicated.

[RailRunRob]

I too had noticed how close the portal was to the area I was talking about. So that actually wouldn't be that much of diversion; to simply have the tail tracks extend out the portal (where they end anyway), and then they could just run down East New York Ave. and pick up Utica from there, already elevated.

(This assuming the line would branch off of the IRT anyway. If they ever were to do something like this, that's probably what they would go with, as it's less distance for new construction, and you already have tracks ending there to be extended, and bellmouths, etc. If it went past there, it would require a lot of construction to tie into the existing IND, as it was designed to pass over that line and continue to S4th, and they certainly aren't going to try to build that much of the Second System!)

Why do we have to go with something designed in the 1920's/30's? There existing shell is from a bygone era.. Look at the SAS section under Confucius plaza that's never to be used in current plans... Chalk it to the game! Tunnel under the existing station. two tracks ramp up between the Utica and Kingston-Throop Stations between the Local and Express in both directions.. If they could do it with the 63rd street Connector they can do it here. Simple and Painless.

[MysteriousBtrain]

Why do we have to go with something designed in the 1920's/30's? There existing shell is from a bygone era.. Look at the SAS section under Confucius plaza that's never to be used in current plans... Chalk it to the game! Tunnel under the existing station. two tracks ramp up between the Utica and Kingston-Throop Stations between the Local and Express in both directions.. If they could do it with the 63rd street Connector they can do it here. Simple and Painless.

Just to point out, we don't even know if they would make a completely new line or an extension of another for Utica at this time, so for now, anything goes for the Utica line.

[RailRunRob]

Just to point out, we don't even know if they would make a completely new line or an extension of another for Utica at this time, so for now, anything goes for the Utica line.

Route assignments are just a means to a end. they can change at anytime i.e. Christie Street connector in the 1960's most recently the in 2010. With the infrastructure in place the MTA can assign any way they feel fit. There's a whole sublayer to managing a Railroad and reading the statistics and travel patterns. Im just implying why are we putting everything in a box?.. Just time to rethink transit in general. Maybe we need to start getting some private investors to start funding these projects.. Get a few tech moguls to invest and call it a day.. with a will theres a way. Why aren't any us getting more heavily involved and getting into the field to become next Moses and champions of transit instead of just riding. and talking about it. Just asking and saying.

[Fresh Pond]

Why do we have to go with something designed in the 1920's/30's? There existing shell is from a bygone era.. Look at the SAS section under Confucius plaza that's never to be used in current plans... Chalk it to the game! Tunnel under the existing station. two tracks ramp up between the Utica and Kingston-Throop Stations between the Local and Express in both directions.. If they could do it with the 63rd street Connector they can do it here. Simple and Painless.

Confucius Plaza is the ONLY part of the original SAS (and I think Houston) that won't be used in the current plans. All the tunnels uptown partly built will be reused.

[bobtehpanda]

No one has yet to mention a solution for Rogers Junction.. Backing there plans for A Eastern Parkway connection. 

How do Joralemon and Clark tubes..Feeding the NewLots/Nostand lines Differ from the Rutgers and Cranberry feeding into the Fulton/Culver?

Once again to reiterate Hoyt-Schemrehorn is 6 tracks. There are at least 5 Service combinations you can work from that solution.  Rockaways to Hoyt or Court street via Local. Kings Plaza to Hoyt/Court street via Local.. to Kings Plaza. It's not at all complicated.

 

Rogers Junction is on the MTA long-term wishlist to redo anyways, so talking about it as if its a constraint is not particularly relevant on the timescales in which we would build this.

 

Also, to answer your other post, it is literally impossible to have someone like Moses again. One, because we banned taking more than one public agency job at a time, and two, Moses was only powerful because he had the fire hose of money, from the Triboro and from the federal government. Tech moguls, the majority of whom didn't even start out here, have no reason to, and are sure as hell not going to help us build subways.

[RailRunRob]

Rogers Junction is on the MTA long-term wishlist to redo anyways, so talking about it as if its a constraint is not particularly relevant on the timescales in which we would build this.

 

Also, to answer your other post, it is literally impossible to have someone like Moses again. One, because we banned taking more than one public agency job at a time, and two, Moses was only powerful because he had the fire hose of money, from the Triboro and from the federal government. Tech moguls, the majority of whom didn't even start out here, have no reason to, and are sure as hell not going to help us build subways.

Ive seen the plans from the Late 60's and 1970's I guess my question for starters is what is the time scale? 15-20 years? So is the MTA is going to solve and rebuild in this timeframe? 40-50 years is unacceptable. If thats the case why are we even talking about a extension at all? Waiting for a to cross over at Nostrand isn't something you enjoy or the crawl from Franklin to Barclays. Do it 5 days a week for 10 years we'll see the pattern.   Maybe Moses isn't the best example. I never put my personal out there but I've been frequenting this site for sometime now 1st mostly just looking at comments I studied engineering in University both environmental and Civil disciplines civil more towards the end. This site along with a few other kept me in the loop tho not a buff transport still very much interests me. But the amount of knowledge I see up here is crazy I was talking with a few members the other night in the chat they knew everything about everything with passion. In my mind these are the types of people you'd want in the engineering and transport fields. What does retention of knowledge matter if not applied? Im simply saying wouldn't it be nice to utilize some of this talent. As far as technology I run a startup we have discussions in the office daily after crazy commutes with my non engineering/transit partners this has come up mutable times why aren't private investors and citizens investing in there transportation. We mocked some platform ideas for realtime location on train(Underground) tracking via BLE(iBeacon) a year ago and even talked to folks at the MTA with no avail. Ive worked for Apple  Product Q/A and training and did a project for Google working HTML5 /h264 conversion  do you know how many tech companies reside in New York. There employees use public transport here in New York their bottom line and and profit are tightly connected to transport Google could cut a check along with a few other companies to build a station the cash is there!! Technology as a whole has the power to disrupt and shake things up. Four of my old Apple buddies are currently working at Control group they created all of info kiosk going up in stations. So from the prospective of someone in tech  I feel we can do more..and  Im hoping to at least at some point bring some attention to the transport topic. I'm also not very accustomed to hearing no or we can't especially without thorough reasoning. Hell the people trying to solve cancer or landing on Mars aren't saying we can't why are we saying it here. From my perspective it just drives me mad. I see people make 500k for potato salad on platforms like kick starter why can't we get the public more involved and maybe invest in their infrastructure. Good thing to have citizens feel like they have a hand in making there City a better place. Im I crazy? Just because it's been this way doesn't mean it's always going to be this way.

[Eric B]

Why do we have to go with something designed in the 1920's/30's? There existing shell is from a bygone era.. Look at the SAS section under Confucius plaza that's never to be used in current plans... Chalk it to the game! Tunnel under the existing station. two tracks ramp up between the Utica and Kingston-Throop Stations between the Local and Express in both directions.. If they could do it with the 63rd street Connector they can do it here. Simple and Painless.

 

The portal comes out right behind the tennis courts (aptly named Portal St), and petty much lines up with E. 98 St. A line coming off there could (theoretically) hang a right on ENY Av, then hang the left on Utica. It would petty much be a big backtrack just to get back to Utica Av.

 

I originally said making a new level under the current station, the plus being there's plenty of room under Eastern Pkwy since the trains use the south (eastbound) side of the street. A new flying junction could be built and come up under the mainline tracks.

 

The bad part of it would be nightmare of construction just to do it. With now 3 levels of the station (the Utica Av branch would be under the Manhattan bound track, which is already under the New Lots track), new flying junctions would have to be built and essentially the whole area would have to be redesigned.

 

Or just say screw it and build a brand new B division line. Have it terminate at the current Utica Av station with 2 tracks that go straight and turn east to connect with the local tracks for Pitkin Yard access.

Again, money. Building new levels and ramps of existing lines will require a lot of additional construction. Just them building the new elevated extension is a lot, if that would ever get done. (Just look at how long SAS is taking. And as it is, they probably would have to redo Rogers Junction to be able to add this extension). Here, it would just be a matter of connecting it to existing provisions.

[JayJay85]

This, plus there shouldn't be 5 stations without an express one there for no good reason.

Sorry has been Kings Highway is added as an Express lol

[RailRunRob]

Again, money. Building new levels and ramps of existing lines will require a lot of additional construction. Just them building the new elevated extension is a lot, if that would ever get done. (Just look at how long SAS is taking. And as it is, they probably would have to redo Rogers Junction to be able to add this extension). Here, it would just be a matter of connecting it to existing provisions.

Let's get the EIS and price tag 1st before we say it's out of reach riders in 2060 are thanking you.. true widening to six track is work Theres no type of Mitigation in this area besides creating diversion tunnels to keep services going during construction.  If we gave projects like SAS a quarter of the push of a project like Water tunnel 3 things would get done. There's money out here.. so I'm not trying to hear that it's bull. All the construction going on around town. all made possible by 100 year old investments. What are we leaving for future NYC?

[bobtehpanda]

Let's get the EIS and price tag 1st before we say it's out of reach riders in 2060 are thanking you.. true widening to six track is work Theres no type of Mitigation in this area besides creating diversion tunnels to keep services going during construction.  If we gave projects like SAS a quarter of the push of a project like Water tunnel 3 things would get done. There's money out here.. so I'm not trying to hear that it's bull. All the construction going on around town. all made possible by 100 year old investments. What are we leaving for future NYC?

 

I don't know where you get the idea that there is money for transportation in this town when we can't even fill the existing $15B gap in the budget we already have...

[Union Tpke]

how about congestion pricing? Taxes on drivers?

[RailRunRob]

I don't know where you get the idea that there is money for transportation in this town when we can't even fill the existing $15B gap in the budget we already have...

We spend Billions in failed technology for defense alone in this country the money's there. We have money for what we feel is priority. Your a smart guy you have to know we can't sustain this. It's not possible you have to see all the construction. Williamsburg perfect example building building building on top of the same foundation. NYC is the economic engine of this country basic economics Transport makes this city run.. How can we expect growth with no investment? Is this way the people that run our country think? The brightest minds? if this is it were in serious trouble. 15B why shouldn't Federal Government cut some slack or jump in. NYC is the crown jewel.. Take Control from the MTA rethink this. Who expects transport to be profitable?  If mediocrity is the norm here now then as A country we need to stop talking as where the global leaders as Americans we talk a good game comes down the putting your money where your mouth is!! Man  it's embarrassing. 

[bobtehpanda]

We spend Billions in failed technology for defense alone in this country the money's there. We have money for what we feel is priority. Your a smart guy you have to know we can't sustain this. It's not possible you have to see all the construction. Williamsburg perfect example building building building on top of the same foundation. NYC is the economic engine of this country basic economics Transport makes this city run.. How can we expect growth with no investment? Is this way the people that run our country think? The brightest minds? if this is it were in serious trouble. 15B why shouldn't Federal Government cut some slack or jump in. NYC is the crown jewel.. Take Control from the MTA rethink this. Who expects transport to be profitable?  If mediocrity is the norm here now then as A country we need to stop talking as where the global leaders as Americans we talk a good game comes down the putting your money where your mouth is!! Man  it's embarrassing. 

 

The money's there, but at the federal level. The City and State are broke as hell, and if you think the feds, of all people, in this day and age, are going to hand New York more cash for local projects, I have a bridge to sell you. We can't even get Gateway off the ground, and that is way more important to the country than some sort of subway extension in the outer boroughs.

[RailRunRob]

The money's there, but at the federal level. The City and State are broke as hell, and if you think the feds, of all people, in this day and age, are going to hand New York more cash for local projects, I have a bridge to sell you. We can't even get Gateway off the ground, and that is way more important to the country than some sort of subway extension in the outer boroughs.

Ohh okay then, Ill tell you a story of a city in a slow economic downturn. Forget this Utica extension where talking investment in general you just said it all right there with Gateway. Feds don't want to invest in vital infrastructure how long do you think NYC or the Country as a whole is going to be able to keep this forward momentum? Ill give the City 40 years before it starts losing population. They can barely keep up with the population now this is becoming pathetic. The future's not looking to good.

[Trainmaster5]

Ohh okay then, Ill tell you a story of a city in a slow economic downturn. Forget this Utica extension where talking investment in general you just said it all right there with Gateway. Feds don't want to invest in vital infrastructure how long do you think NYC or the Country as a whole is going to be able to keep this forward momentum? Ill give the City 40 years before it starts losing population. They can barely keep up with the population now this is becoming pathetic. The future's not looking to good.

You, Eric B, bobtehpanda, and the others see the problem. The thing is each of you are trying to solve the problem in a logical way. The way money is apportioned in this country is not done in a logical way. Here we are talking about competing plans, IRT vs IND, express, local, Second System, what have you.When I made my proposal a few pages back I envisioned the northern terminus being Utica Avenue on the , line. Except for the mention of a train yard I intentionally left that part vague. I did that because the only (full) plan that made sense to me was the route to South 4th St but because of budgetary constraints it is my opinion that even a "standalone" line connecting Mill Basin with the , and the ,   at Fulton Street is better than nothing. IMO it certainly trumps the B46SBS proposal although it's more costly at start-up. Meanwhile we have the Gateway Plan in Manhattan and the MNRR Bronx proposal also looking for some sort of funding. Therefore it all depends on how the money is doled out. EIS and the like take time as we all know so why not push the issue as much as possible and make this Utica Avenue project "shovel ready" ASAP. It's my opinion that since this Utica Avenue idea was first suggested the major difference in underground infrastructure would be telephone, cable type stuff with some electrical work because this area was essentially built up before the Second System was proposed, except for Kings Plaza itself. If it was politically feasible construct the section from Fulton St to South 4th St for the same reason. I'd think that any service heading through downtown Brooklyn would be problematic because of the existing subway, rail, and utility infrastructure in the area. I'd think this would rule out any new subway construction in the area, too. I'm just throwing this idea out there. Feel free to agree or not. No hard feelings. Carry on.

[trainfanrod]

i see what you are saying but it wont help solve the problem until the utica Ave line goes to manhattan its basically going to be looked at as a shuttle to get people to the lines and then it still will have congestion issues i think making the go there and every other go there will make it better but partially the other go newlots

[RollOver]

Oh no. This is not the line. You're seriously suggesting that the should alternate between the existing New Lots and the proposed Utica lines?