MTA Workers Get to Know 7 Line Extension

[bobtehpanda]

To be fairly honest, July-October (Q3 2015) has been the official date for a while, but headlines will be headlines.

[NYtransit]

what if they built an elevated concrete structure along 11th or 12th avenue for service?

[P3F]

Response to the above:

They might as well reclaim the High Line, at least that wouldn't create new disturbances.

[bobtehpanda]

The High Line runs through buildings. It's not coming back.

 

An elevated train on a Manhattan avenue is not going to happen, ever. You can either hope for some sort of weird subway shuttle or a light rail route on the avenue itself (it's wide enough for it)

[BreeddekalbL]

since they resignaled tsq to make it a through station, if they needed to reuse tsq for the terminal can they?

[MysteriousBtrain]

since they resignaled tsq to make it a through station, if they needed to reuse tsq for the terminal can they?

If you mean for a G.O. most likely.

[NYSubwayBuff]

since they resignaled tsq to make it a through station, if they needed to reuse tsq for the terminal can they?

 

That has me thinking, can a station be both a terminal and a through station at the same time? I was thinking that maybe 34th doesn't need a train every 2 minutes and maybe some trains would turn at 42nd street to save time. Also, does anyone know the crew room situation, will there be a crew room built at 34th or are they going to reuse the one at times square?

[bobtehpanda]

That has me thinking, can a station be both a terminal and a through station at the same time? I was thinking that maybe 34th doesn't need a train every 2 minutes and maybe some trains would turn at 42nd street to save time. Also, does anyone know the crew room situation, will there be a crew room built at 34th or are they going to reuse the one at times square?

 

It cannot be done. You'd severely limit capacity on whatever tracks are going through, because one track is going to have to be reserved for terminating trains.

[Fresh Pond]

That has me thinking, can a station be both a terminal and a through station at the same time? I was thinking that maybe 34th doesn't need a train every 2 minutes and maybe some trains would turn at 42nd street to save time. Also, does anyone know the crew room situation, will there be a crew room built at 34th or are they going to reuse the one at times square?

There's gonna be a crew room there, I don't see why wouldn't they put one there...

[Union Tpke]

Once 34th is open, there would still be 7 line closures. Would they then have a shuttle between 34th and times square or grand central?

[Lance]

Knowing these guys, they'll probably advise riders to take the N/Q trains to 34 Street for the M34 bus.

[Roadcruiser1]

I agree completely.

 

Not likely. It's too close to the water. However I do know that the West Side of Manhattan needs a subway line. That is why I believe something called the should be curved, and extended north into Tenth Avenue. Name it as a Tenth Avenue Line. .

[Grand Concourse]

Response to the above:

They might as well reclaim the High Line, at least that wouldn't create new disturbances.

Considering they spent a lot of money turning it into a park and that it's been a economic benefit for the neighborhood, it is probably never going to be used for rail service again. Plus if it were to be for rail service, they'll have to have concrete to absorb the vibration like the 7 from 33rd to 46th or the AT over the van wyck. Either way expensive and not practical. 

 

If New Jersey wants a subway tunnel so bad, they should build Gateway or build a PATH tunnel across 57th St.

Agreed. PATH for the most part along with NJT covers what the 7 extension would be doing. The MTA should be focusing on extending and expanding lines in the city, not another state's cities. MTA can't even get the 2 phases of the SAS ready as well as ESA, so why should we add NJ to our burden of projects that will never be completed? PATH could be extended over from the Hoboken branch to midtown. Maybe even have it end next to the 7 line at 34th st. Ideally though they really need to build the new Hudson tunnels for NJT as the existing ones are in dire need of repairs or to be retired. Iirc they were damaged by the flooding from hurricane sandy.

[bobtehpanda]

Not likely. It's too close to the water. However I do know that the West Side of Manhattan needs a subway line. That is why I believe something called the should be curved, and extended north into Tenth Avenue. Name it as a Tenth Avenue Line. .

 

Let's list all the transit projects that the MTA has fully funded for Manhattan, and then the outer boroughs.

 

Manhattan:

 

Fulton St Transit Center ($1.4B)

Second Avenue Subway ($4.45B)

East Side Access ($10.8B)

7 Line Extension ($2.4 B)

South Ferry ($530M, plus $194M reconstruction)

 

Outer boroughs:

 

train CBTC, which definitely cost less than $1B.

 

We are not throwing more money at the Manhattan money pit while the rest of the city gets bread crumbs.

[NY1635]

The MTA seems more content with SBS service in the outerboros than providing a subway expansion.

[Grand Concourse]

One of the few times i actually agree with deblassio was when he said the 4 should be extended down utica av. The b46 does need help and the 4 would take the pressure off. If not the 4 via utica, then the 2/5 via flatbush av toward kings plaza mall could also work.

 

Fulton hub was needed, but the cost over runs was ridiculous. South ferry was a total waste as the current set up now was what they should've done from the start: connect the loop platform to the R line. I mean the only good about the new 1 platform was opening all 10 cars on the platform, but the station entrance was just outside the ferry terminal building and the northern end of the train was a long walk away from the ferry terminal to be of any use. A person wanting the ferry should still be in the first 5 cars anyway. The loop as dated as people say it is works fine and still holding up over a brand new platform that had leaks before it was flooded when hurricane sandy hit.

[bobtehpanda]

One of the few times i actually agree with deblassio was when he said the 4 should be extended down utica av. The b46 does need help and the 4 would take the pressure off. If not the 4 via utica, then the 2/5 via flatbush av toward kings plaza mall could also work.

 

Fulton hub was needed, but the cost over runs was ridiculous. South ferry was a total waste as the current set up now was what they should've done from the start: connect the loop platform to the R line. I mean the only good about the new 1 platform was opening all 10 cars on the platform, but the station entrance was just outside the ferry terminal building and the northern end of the train was a long walk away from the ferry terminal to be of any use. A person wanting the ferry should still be in the first 5 cars anyway. The loop as dated as people say it is works fine and still holding up over a brand new platform that had leaks before it was flooded when hurricane sandy hit.

 

Fulton Hub and the WTC were completed using federal dollars that were restricted to Lower Manhattan. There weren't many other eligible projects for transit; the one actually useful one that people kept throwing around (LIRR to WTC) was shot down because it was not an enhancement of an existing facility.

 

The loop is actually bad for capacity, because the door restrictions make the whole line slower and reduce capacity, and on top of that it's not ADA-accessible. As a "key" transfer point between the subway and ferry services, the FTA made it clear that this station had to be fully accessible, especially if federal money was involved (and we all know the MTA can't afford to do any projects on its own.)

[Grand Concourse]

The loop is not great, but it would not have cost hundreds of millions of dollars the way the building and repairs of the new platforms require. It is stupid how all that money could only be used for lower manhattan opposed to being for the mta for other projects or for fleet upgrades like newer trains now instead of the need for so many r32s still running. The whole thing about south ferry was a giant boondoggle from the start. Yes, great the entire train can pull into the platform and there were elevators for the wc riders, but did it justify the nearly $1 billion spent for the whole complex for two stations? That is why I never liked the sf project because of the insane costs with minimal benefits other than a 1 to R train connection.

As i have said before, if we get hit with another hurricane sandy type storm again and the platform gets flooded as badly as it did again, i don think the fed is going to bail us out. Like the loop or not, but it has been running for decades and will still be around for decades more. I can't say the same for that new platform.

[bobtehpanda]

The loop is not great, but it would not have cost hundreds of millions of dollars the way the building and repairs of the new platforms require. It is stupid how all that money could only be used for lower manhattan opposed to being for the mta for other projects or for fleet upgrades like newer trains now instead of the need for so many r32s still running. The whole thing about south ferry was a giant boondoggle from the start. Yes, great the entire train can pull into the platform and there were elevators for the wc riders, but did it justify the nearly $1 billion spent for the whole complex for two stations? That is why I never liked the sf project because of the insane costs with minimal benefits other than a 1 to R train connection.

As i have said before, if we get hit with another hurricane sandy type storm again and the platform gets flooded as badly as it did again, i don think the fed is going to bail us out. Like the loop or not, but it has been running for decades and will still be around for decades more. I can't say the same for that new platform.

 

The money was 9/11 recovery money on top of the federal funding the MTA already gets for train purchases and projects; at a store you don't get to rip off the sale tag and put it on another item. Boosting train capacity by 5 TPH (19 to 24 TPH) would be a 5% increase in TPH, and for half a million (which is what it actually cost) that's a pretty good deal. 

[Grand Concourse]

It was only a good deal because the feds covered the costs. I don't see them spending another $400 mil to fix it up a 2nd time. To me that platform has been and always will be a giant money pit with limited benefits for a short amount of time.

[Lance]

Yeah because gaining four times the platforming space along with ADA accessibility for one of the busiest stations outside of midtown are limited benefits. I'm aware that some people here like to talk up the loop station like it is and was the best thing to happen to the subway since ever, but for a station in such a prime location with the ridership it has, the loop setup is not and has not been the ideal solution for a long time.

[bobtehpanda]

It was only a good deal because the feds covered the costs. I don't see them spending another $400 mil to fix it up a 2nd time. To me that platform has been and always will be a giant money pit with limited benefits for a short amount of time.

 

The repairs cost $150M. The MTA's costs are high, but let's not be ridiculous here.

[Grand Concourse]

I am not saying the loop is 'the greatest thing ever'. I am saying it should not have cost so much to build one station so shoddily and then have to do a complete rebuild because it was flooded collecting all the water it did.

As for the cost: from the mta website http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/RestoringSouthFerryStation.htm

 

"The South Ferry station, built with $545 million in post-9/11 recovery funds, opened in 2009 as a state-of-the-art marvel. It could handle 24 trains an hour on two parallel tracks – a vast improvement over the old station, which could accommodate only half of a 10-car train on a severely curved platform – and was excavated out of bedrock below the existing tangle of Lower Manhattan infrastructure.

 

Then came Sandy. Though MTA crews tried to barricade the station entrances and ventilation grates before the storm, chest-high water poured down the stairs and filled the station 80 feet deep, from track level to the mezzanine. The rebuilding effort will take an estimated $600 million and as long as three years, and engineers are studying whether some of the vital electrical infrastructure can be moved to higher ground to guard against future flooding."

[bobtehpanda]

According to this, $543M of this is covered by federal disaster recovery money. And according to this, the actual rebuilding of the station only costs $194M. If you look at the MTA Capital Program Dashboard, it appears the full $600M cost included the clearing of tracks and stations of debris, which had to be done anyways.