Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Armandito]

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Agreed. If you're going to have a new ( K ) via Nassau St, it might as well go at least to Broadway Jct and run peak local between there and Marcy while the  runs express, eliminating skip-stop service.

True. The would most likely be eliminated as the peak-directional express service to Broadway Junction will be the successor to skip-stop service. trains would run local to that station during the hours the runs express to and from Marcy Avenue.

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Does this mean both the ( K ) and  would operate 24/7 end-to-end? It's certainly possible for them to both be full time, but would 4th Ave local need that much service during off hours? The  would have to be 24/7 if the  moves to 2nd Ave. The ( K ) wouldn't have to, but then it would be the supplemental 4th Ave local service, while the  would be the new main service. A scenario where the ( K ) is the full-time primary service and the  is the part-time secondary service with the  terminating at Whitehall is certainly possible. But it would require the  to stay in Astoria as the primary service there and continue to merge with the  at either 57th or 34th.

My plan calls for the to run 24/7 between Chambers Street and Bay Ridge and replace former service along Fourth Avenue. The reasons why I had some trains be extended to Brooklyn was to allow for trains to terminate there in its place and also due to capacity constraints at that station. Whitehall could only turn up to about 6 TPH so extending some trains to Brooklyn on weekdays seemed like a logical plan. (At first I proposed extending select rush hour  trains there so adequate service frequency could be maintained along the QBL.) During other times the would terminate at Canal Street.

On the other hand, an alternative proposal I had in mind was keeping the existing route intact and have the existing weekday-only service extended to Bay Ridge. The in this case would still terminate at Whitehall but one or two rush hour trains would terminate at Canal Street due to capacity constraints at the former station.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Armandito

[shiznit1987]

Here's an idea for de-interling Broadway: 

 Coney Island to 96th st/2nd Ave via Sea Beach -> Bridge -> Bway Express (all times)

 Coney Island to Hillside-179st via Brighton -> Bridge -> Bway Express -> 63rd St -> QB Express (all times)

 Whitehall to Astoria via Broadway Local (all times)

 LL City Hall to 71st-Forest Hills via Broadway local, QB local (rush hours/middays only)

 No changes, except doesn't run at night (use )

 Runs via 53rd st tunnel and QB Local to 71st-Forest Hills (all times)

 Jamaica Center to 57th st-6th Ave via 6th ave local (all times) 

 Extended to Forest Hills on weekends (optional)

 Metropolitan Ave to Bay Ridge-95th St (all times)

So Queens Blvd looks like this:  local,  express. Broadway now has zero merges, 4th Ave in BK gets a more reliable train and the Jamaica line gets full time 6th ave access. 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by shiznit1987

[Vulturious]

2 minutes ago, shiznit1987 said:

Here's an idea for de-interling Broadway: 

 Coney Island to 96th st/2nd Ave via Sea Beach -> Bridge -> Bway Express (all times)

 Coney Island to Hillside-179st via Brighton -> Bridge -> Bway Express -> 63rd St -> QB Express (all times)

 Whitehall to Astoria via Broadway Local (all times)

 LL City Hall to 71st-Forest Hills via Broadway local, QB local (rush hours/middays only)

 No changes, except doesn't run at night (use )

 Runs via 53rd st tunnel and QB Local to 71st-Forest Hills (all times)

 Jamaica Center to 57th st-6th Ave via 6th ave local (all times) 

 Extended to Forest Hills on weekends (optional)

 Metropolitan Ave to Bay Ridge-95th St (all times)

So Queens Blvd looks like this:  local,  express. Broadway now has zero merges, 4th Ave in BK gets a more reliable train and the Jamaica line gets full time 6th ave access. 

1.) That idea has been proposed for a while now.

2.) Odd how you have the  rerouted all the way to Jamaica-179th, I feel it's unnecessary to do that. Keep the  at 96th St since  trains usually gets rerouted via 2nd Av because not enough  trains running. 

3.) Just call the  the  instead since many Astoria riders are used to the  instead of  now. No need to have the  since it's making every stop the  does and just confuses riders. 

4.) You have to renovate Lower Level of City Hall for that to happen, I actually don't mind the idea of that, just feel its better to use Lower Level as a layup and terminate the  (as I've said earlier, it's better for the  you proposed to be called the  instead) at Canal St instead. 

5.) What would happen for 8th Av Line then? You're abandoning the  entirely on its own. 

6.) As I said about the , I feel it's unnecessary to do this since people are used to the  instead of the .

7.) I don't know how to feel about the  being rerouted instead of having the  go the same way, then again, it could be useful, but who knows.

8.) There isn't a need to have the  on QBL since the  became reliable, plus people on QBL would rather have access to Manhattan instead.

9.) I actually do like this idea more since the  already has access to a yard which makes it reliable and shorter.

[Armandito]

1 hour ago, Armandito said:

On the other hand, an alternative proposal I had in mind was keeping the existing route intact and have the existing weekday-only service extended to Bay Ridge. The in this case would still terminate at Whitehall but one or two rush hour trains would terminate at Canal Street due to capacity constraints at the former station.

One other change I forgot here was having trains run via Whitehall on weekends in addition to late nights so the merge at Prince Street could be eliminated. (Weekend trains would still run express in Brooklyn after Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center.)

Edited August 25, 2020 by Armandito

[loveofelevators]

20 hours ago, Vulturious said:

You're screwing Lexington Av line you know that right? No trains in NYC ever terminates and switches onto a completely different line to continue. You haven't even answered my question about the Manhattan bound trains from Brooklyn. I suggest you stop because this proposal is not good, period. No matter how you do it, unless you have a new tunnel created for the  to run completely separate from Lexington while still making some of those stops running into South Ferry, your idea would never be considered because of the amount of delays you have made for every rider on both Lexington and even  train riders.

Oh, Fine! Proposal Canceled! Happy Now?

[Bay Ridge Express]

10 hours ago, Reptile said:

Responded to the wrong person, my bad. I think the should both run to Astoria with some transfer between Queens Plaza and Queensboro Plaza added in.

Queens Blvd riders occasionally advocate for Broadway access despite all of our deinterlining proposals... are there any (possibly other) specific reasons you would advocate for this? (Also, as you proposed, I would say that connecting Queens Plaza and Queensboro could make the reroute more bearable for riders).

[JeremiahC99]

8 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Queens Blvd riders occasionally advocate for Broadway access despite all of our deinterlining proposals... are there any (possibly other) specific reasons you would advocate for this? (Also, as you proposed, I would say that connecting Queens Plaza and Queensboro could make the reroute more bearable for riders).

I hope these people realize that the Broadway and 6th Avenue lines operate a block apart for most of its length, so why don’t they walk the extra block to do so?

[Bay Ridge Express]

4 hours ago, Armandito said:

One other change I forgot here was having trains run via Whitehall on weekends in addition to late nights so the merge at Prince Street could be eliminated. (Weekend trains would still run express in Brooklyn after Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center.)

Well, how I feel about this depends on how the other two services (  and  ) would run on weekends. I'm assuming it would look something like this: 

 Coney Island-Astoria (instead of 96 St/2 Av) via Sea Beach Lcl, 4 Av Exp, Manhattan Bridge (or Montague), Broadway Lcl, Astoria Lcl

 Unchanged

 Whitehall St-Forest Hills via Broadway Lcl, Queens Blvd Lcl

 No weekend service

Which would make the ( K ) the primary service on 4 Av Lcl: 95 St-Chambers. Of course that means there would be no direct access to Broadway without the  so maybe it would be a fine idea. However, I'm not too sure if  riders would like this idea (alongside having to transfer to the  for faster, more direct service between Brooklyn and Manhattan w/o Montague Tunnel). Perhaps someone else could weigh in.

10 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I hope these people realize that the Broadway and 6th Avenue lines operate a block apart for most of its length, so why don’t they walk the extra block to do so?

It has to do with transfers as well. Broadway service gives you easy access to the Lexington Av Line (59/Lex) and 7 Av Line (Times-42) without needing to transfer multiple trains. However, I do believe that the "just walk an extra block" argument could apply more to stations in Lower Manhattan/Lower Midtown Manhattan, where aside from Union Square and Washington Square, most stations are pretty close together and there wouldn't be much of a need to transfer.

[Armandito]

54 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Which would make the ( K ) the primary service on 4 Av Lcl: 95 St-Chambers. Of course that means there would be no direct access to Broadway without the  so maybe it would be a fine idea. However, I'm not too sure if  riders would like this idea (alongside having to transfer to the  for faster, more direct service between Brooklyn and Manhattan w/o Montague Tunnel). Perhaps someone else could weigh in.

The already operates express via the Manhattan Bridge on weekends, so there wouldn't be as much of a need to keep Manhattan Bridge service running on the on weekends, especially if it would have to interlock at Prince Street so it could run local on Broadway. Sixth Avenue, likewise, only has the crossing the bridge on weekends which should balance some things out.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Armandito

[MottAvFarRockaway]

Reformed NYC Subway (New World New York Program), updated August 26, 2020

•  207th Street to Lefferts Boulevard or Far Rockaway
•  168th Street to West Fourth Street–Washington Square (operates during late nights replacing A/C services)
•  168th Street to Euclid Avenue
•  Bedford Park Blvd to Rockaway Park (replaces the B on the Concourse Branch during weekend rush hours therefore rerouting the B via the Q line)
•  Jamaica/Parsons Archer or Jamaica - 179th Street to WTC (World Trade)
•  Broad Channel to Rockaway Park
•  Bedford Park Blvd to Brighton Beach (all-local, Rerouted via the Q line between DeKalb Avenue and 96th Street - 2nd Avenue during weekend rush hours to make room for the diamond C)
•  Bedford Park Blvd to Brighton Beach (peak express, does not operate on Saturday evening rush hours to make room for the diamond C)
•  205th Street to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue
•  Jamaica–179th Street to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue or Church Avenue
•  Jamaica–179th Street to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue or Church Avenue (Culver peak express with a stop at Bergen Street)
•  Union Turnpike–Kew Gardens, Essex Street or Myrtle Avenue to Middle Village–Metropolitan Avenue
•  Union Turnpike–Kew Gardens to 71st Avenue (late nights only, replacing parts of M services)
•  Union Turnpike–Kew Gardens or Court Square to Church Avenue
•  Bedford Park Blvd to 96th Street - 2nd Avenue (a B via the Q line service; only during weekend rush hours to make room for the diamond C)
•  Bedford Park Blvd to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue (a B via the N line service; only during Saturday evening rush hours to make room for the diamond C)
•  Astoria–Ditmars Boulevard to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue
•  Generally an NX but makes stops at Avenues U, M and J
•  Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue to 96th Street - 2nd Avenue
•  Continental Avenue to 95th Street
•  Chambers Street to 95th Street
•  Astoria–Ditmars Boulevard to Whitehall Street–South Ferry or 86th Street
•  Queensboro Plaza to Broadway (late nights only, replacing parts of N services)
•  Harlem–125th Street to Hanover Square
•  Jamaica/Parsons Archer to Broad Street skip-stop (rush hours, other times local)
•  Basically a revival of the QJ
•  Jamaica/Parsons Archer to Broad Street skip-stop (rush hours)
•  Eighth Avenue to Rockaway Parkway (local)
•  Eighth Avenue to Rockaway Parkway (peak express)
• Franklin Avenue to Prospect Park
•  Times Square - 42 Street to Grand Central
•  Van Cortlandt Park–242nd Street to South Ferry
•  Wakefield–241st Street to Flatbush Avenue or New Lots Avenue
•  Harlem–148th Street to New Lots Avenue or Times Square–42nd Street
•  Woodlawn to Crown Heights–Utica Avenue
•  Woodlawn to New Lots Avenue (Bronx peak express)
•  Dyre Avenue to Bowling Green, Utica Avenue, Flatbush Avenue or New Lots
•  Dyre Avenue to Nereid Avenue (rush hours only)
•  Pelham Bay Park or Parkchester to Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall (local)
•  Pelham Bay Park or Parkchester to Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall (peak express)
•  Flushing–Main Street to 10th Avenue (local)
•  Flushing–Main Street to 10th Avenue (peak express)

Would you agree with this proposal reform? Why or why not?

Edited August 26, 2020 by MottAvFarRockaway

[Vulturious]

19 hours ago, loveofelevators said:

Oh, Fine! Proposal Canceled! Happy Now?

It's not something against you, it's the fact that you made things way more complicating than it needs to be and I cannot stress it enough when I say "way more complicating". I wouldn't mind having a train running onto Lexington and 7th av at the same time. If anything, have the 42nd St shuttle connect back with both 7th and Lexington Av. However, I don't know how well the connection would be and if it is in anyway necessary. My reasoning behind it is that it allows a better connection in midtown between Lexington and 7th Av instead of having to transfer to either the  or the . Again, I don't know how well the idea is since the  is being renovated. I'm open to suggestions if anyone has a better idea.

[Vulturious]

12 hours ago, MottAvFarRockaway said:

Reformed NYC Subway (New World New York Program), updated August 26, 2020

•  168th Street to West Fourth Street–Washington Square (operates during late nights replacing A/C services)
•  Bedford Park Blvd to Rockaway Park (replaces the B on the Concourse Branch during weekend rush hours therefore rerouting the B via the Q line)
•  Bedford Park Blvd to Brighton Beach (all-local, Rerouted via the Q line between DeKalb Avenue and 96th Street - 2nd Avenue during weekend rush hours to make room for the diamond C)
•  Bedford Park Blvd to Brighton Beach (peak express, does not operate on Saturday evening rush hours to make room for the diamond C)
•  Jamaica–179th Street to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue or Church Avenue
•  Jamaica–179th Street to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue or Church Avenue (Culver peak express with a stop at Bergen Street)
•  Union Turnpike–Kew Gardens, Essex Street or Myrtle Avenue to Middle Village–Metropolitan Avenue
•  Union Turnpike–Kew Gardens to 71st Avenue (late nights only, replacing parts of M services)
•  Union Turnpike–Kew Gardens or Court Square to Church Avenue
•  Bedford Park Blvd to 96th Street - 2nd Avenue (a B via the Q line service; only during weekend rush hours to make room for the diamond C)
•  Bedford Park Blvd to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue (a B via the N line service; only during Saturday evening rush hours to make room for the diamond C)
•  Generally an NX but makes stops at Avenues U, M and J
•  Chambers Street to 95th Street
•  Queensboro Plaza to Broadway (late nights only, replacing parts of N services)
•  Basically a revival of the QJ
•  Eighth Avenue to Rockaway Parkway (peak express)
•  Woodlawn to New Lots Avenue (Bronx peak express)
•  Dyre Avenue to Nereid Avenue (rush hours only)
•  Flushing–Main Street to 10th Avenue (local)
•  Flushing–Main Street to 10th Avenue (peak express)

Would you agree with this proposal reform? Why or why not?

I removed a good chunk of them because they are the lines that are unchanged, the ones that are here are what I want to focus on more.

1.) I wouldn't mind having this kind of service running late night, instead I would rather just keep it signed up as the  instead to keep it simple. However, that doesn't mean there isn't a flaw here. No trains can terminate at West 4 St as there are no Relay switch for 8th Av platform, there are for 6th Av. If anything, keep it running towards WTC that way  trains can continue to run express and have a bit better service in Manhattan as well as Brooklyn.

2.) I wouldn't mind having the , but it is already going a very far length especially running local. Better to keep it extended to Bedford and keep it terminated at Euclid still.

3.) Having the  run to 96th St during weekends isn't a bad idea, but both  and  trains are based out of Coney Island, which means during the weekends  trains get extra trains from  because it isn't really needed, also this would just be converted to the  because it's running via Broadway instead of 6th Av. Not to mention, the  is running express, it shouldn't run local at all because it would interfere with  service.

4.)  doesn't need to exist since its basically the .

5.) I don't know why you terminate  trains at Church when it terminates at Kings Highway, the same can be said with  sort of.

6.) You're extending the  for no reason at all and there are no relay switches to switch onto the other side of the platform for this to happen at all. Not to mention, you're delaying every single train involved on QBL.

7.)  doesn't need to exist, you're delaying  trains for no reason.

8.)  doesn't need to be extended to QBL since most people on QBL would rather go towards Manhattan instead of Brooklyn. Plus there wouldn't be any room whatsoever for the  to operate.

9.) There is no way for  to go from Bedford Park Blvd to 96 St-2 Av because there are no tracks towards there unless you want to cause more delays on 6th Av and have it relay at 47-50 St-Rockefeller Center, which is not good. Not to mention again,  is running Broadway if this was the case, but it can't because there aren't anyways from Bedford to get onto Broadway.

10.)  doesn't need to exist.

11.)  How does this even go to Avenues M and J? They only exist on Brighton Local line. Even then, how would this make the same stops as the ?

12.) I wouldn't mind this, however you're confusing riders by having it signed up as an R, better to call it some other line instead, plus it might congest Montague Tunnel because you didn't specify if this was full-time.

13.)  Doesn't need to exist because it is very unnecessary.

14.)  Don't know much about it so I'll leave it be.

15.)  can't exist because there are no express tracks for this to run on and do not say this is skip-stop because you'll end up making it congested which is not good.

16.)  don't mind, but I don't think it's necessary.

17.)  This shouldn't exist at all because it would have to relay at East 180 St for that which would cause congestion along both the  and .

18.) Nothing really changed, only an extension which basically changes nothing.

[checkmatechamp13]

21 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Queens Blvd riders occasionally advocate for Broadway access despite all of our deinterlining proposals... are there any (possibly other) specific reasons you would advocate for this? (Also, as you proposed, I would say that connecting Queens Plaza and Queensboro could make the reroute more bearable for riders).

 

21 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I hope these people realize that the Broadway and 6th Avenue lines operate a block apart for most of its length, so why don’t they walk the extra block to do so?

The transfer to the Lexington Avenue Line at 59th Street is simpler compared to 53rd or 63rd Street.

[Tonyboy515]

The Subway Post-COVID: The Cuts
Here is my proposed plan for how the MTA could have up to an overall 40% service reduction and still run as effectively as possible.
For reference, current weekend service is equal to around a 25% service reduction from the weekday variants.
Stated reductions are compared to current service.

ROUTES
 
All Times: 207th Street to Mott Avenue
Same route and service pattern except the Lefferts branch is covered by the  or the Lefferts , full local at
night, and Fulton Street local when  is not running, no Rockaway Park rush-hour trips. Service reduced by 30%.
 
Rush Hours Only: 145th Street to Brighton Beach
Same route and operation as the current non-rush-hour variant, service reduced by 30%.
 
Weekdays Only: 168th Street to Lefferts Boulevard
Route lengthened to Lefferts Boulevard to streamline  service, no weekend service, 20% service reduction.
 
All Times: Norwood-205th Street to Coney Island
Same route, 30% service reduction. Local on Central Park West weekends.
 
All Times: World Trade Center to Jamaica Center
Same route, no rush-hour runs to 179th Street, 30% service reduction.
 
All Times: Jamaica - 179th Street to Coney Island
Same route, no rush-hour express service in Brooklyn, 30% service reduction.
 
All Times: Court Square - Smith-9th Streets
Truncated from Church Avenue, 30% service reduction.
 
All Times except Rush Hours: Myrtle Avenue-Broadway - Jamaica Center
Same route as the current non-rush-hour variant truncated from Broad Street, runs to Chambers Street rush
hours, 30% reduction in service. Rest of non-rush-hour route covered by the .

All Times: 8th Avenue-14th Street to Rockaway Parkway
Same route, 25% reduction in service.

All Times Except Nights: Metropolitan Avenue - Bay Ridge-95th Street
Same route as the former , except it runs all the way down 4th Avenue (as a local), replacing Brooklyn  
service. Same nightly shuttle as currently, and a second shuttle between 95th and 36th Streets in Brooklyn.

All Times: Astoria-Ditmars Boulevard to Coney Island
Same as the weekend routing (Broadway Local via Bridge, except nights via tunnel), similar service levels,
no rush-hour trips to 96th Street.
 
All Times: 96th Street to Coney Island
Same route, 20% service reduction.
 
All Times Except Nights: Whitehall Street to Forest Hills-71st Avenue
Route truncated from Bay Ridge-95th Street, service to Brooklyn replaced by the  and , 20% service
increase (to accommodate for lost QBL local service from the ), no rush-hour service to 96th Street.
 
(Franklin Avenue)
Reduced to a single train.
 
(Rockaway Park)
Reduced to a single train.
 
(Lefferts Boulevard)
Runs from Euclid Avenue to Lefferts Boulevard when the  doesn't run, operates with a single train.
 
(42nd Street)
Runs a single train or is suspended.

All Times: 242nd Street to South Ferry
Same route, 30% service reduction.

All Times: Wakefield-241st Street to Flatbush Avenue
Same route, 30% service reduction.

Weekdays Only: Harlem-148th Street to New Lots Avenue
Same route weekdays only, a single-train 5-car shuttle between 148th Street and 135th Street other times,
30% weekday service reduction.

Weekdays: Woodlawn to Utica Avenue
Same route weekdays, runs nightly service pattern (Lex Av Local nights only) to New Lots Avenue as a Brooklyn 
local to replace the  at all other times, 30% service reduction.

Weekdays Only: Eastchester-Dyre Avenue to Bowling Green
Same route as weekends, runs as a shuttle from Dyre Avenue to East 180th Street all other times (2 trains).
30% weekday service reduction.

All Times: Pelham Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge
Same route, express service rush-hours only, 30% service reduction.

All Times: 34th Street-Hudson Yards to Flushing-Main Street
Same route, no express service, 20% local service reduction.

Suspended: *

*Replaced by

Thoughts?
I am willing to make edits to this plan to make it as effective as possible.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Tonyboy515

[Armandito]

I absolutely disagree with routing the back to Nassau Street. Ridgewood commuters would indeed be furious about losing their current one-seat ride to Midtown, and commuters living along the  line would NOT want to lose daily access to Manhattan, either. A more realistic scenario would be eliminating / skip-stop service while still maintaining the full routing to Broad Street, not the outlandish proposal you envisioned there.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Armandito

[Tonyboy515]

27 minutes ago, Armandito said:

I absolutely disagree with routing the back to Nassau Street. Ridgewood commuters would indeed be furious about losing their current one-seat ride to Midtown, and commuters living along the  line would NOT want to lose daily access to Manhattan, either. A more realistic scenario would be eliminating / skip-stop service while still maintaining the full routing to Broad Street, not the outlandish proposal you envisioned there.

Good point, the M and J routing I proposed is on the radical side. How about an  to 96th but a  to Bay Ridge? If that’s also too outlandish then I guess  routing should be unchanged, the  only runs to 96th (or Forest Hills rush hours only), and the  runs standard routing.

[Armandito]

59 minutes ago, Tonyboy515 said:

Good point, the M and J routing I proposed is on the radical side. How about an  to 96th but a  to Bay Ridge? If that’s also too outlandish then I guess  routing should be unchanged, the  only runs to 96th (or Forest Hills rush hours only), and the  runs standard routing.

That sounds a tad better, though it was mentioned before that a extension to Fourth Avenue would make the route less reliable due to the longer runtime. Assuming the MTA gets the emergency federal finding, a better idea would be to have the Jamaica-Broad St and Chambers St-Bay Ridge segments as two separate routes with the latter being given the brown designation. Referencing this quote, the most likely service plan would be like this:

On 8/25/2020 at 9:47 PM, Bay Ridge Express said:

Well, how I feel about this depends on how the other two services (  and  ) would run on weekends. I'm assuming it would look something like this: 

 Coney Island-Astoria (instead of 96 St/2 Av) via Sea Beach Lcl, 4 Av Exp, Manhattan Bridge (or Montague), Broadway Lcl, Astoria Lcl

 Unchanged

 Whitehall St-Forest Hills via Broadway Lcl, Queens Blvd Lcl

 No weekend service

Which would make the ( K ) the primary service on 4 Av Lcl: 95 St-Chambers. Of course that means there would be no direct access to Broadway without the  so maybe it would be a fine idea. However, I'm not too sure if  riders would like this idea (alongside having to transfer to the  for faster, more direct service between Brooklyn and Manhattan w/o Montague Tunnel). Perhaps someone else could weigh in.

 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 8/25/2020 at 4:19 PM, Armandito said:

My plan calls for the to run 24/7 between Chambers Street and Bay Ridge and replace former service along Fourth Avenue. The reasons why I had some trains be extended to Brooklyn was to allow for trains to terminate there in its place and also due to capacity constraints at that station. Whitehall could only turn up to about 6 TPH so extending some trains to Brooklyn on weekdays seemed like a logical plan. (At first I proposed extending select rush hour  trains there so adequate service frequency could be maintained along the QBL.) During other times the would terminate at Canal Street.

On the other hand, an alternative proposal I had in mind was keeping the existing route intact and have the existing weekday-only service extended to Bay Ridge. The in this case would still terminate at Whitehall but one or two rush hour trains would terminate at Canal Street due to capacity constraints at the former station.

Unless new switches are installed at Whitehall permitting both  and  trains to terminate there during off-peak hours, the  would be locked into its current route. Maybe it could run express on weekends to avoid using Prince, but it would still have to merge with the  somewhere between Canal and 57th to get to Astoria. If the  is the new full-time service between Astoria and Bay Ridge and the  is part-time - which would be fine for Williamsburg, given that the  and  already run seven days there - then that would make it easy to deinterline Broadway.

On 8/25/2020 at 4:27 PM, shiznit1987 said:

Here's an idea for de-interling Broadway: 

 Coney Island to 96th st/2nd Ave via Sea Beach -> Bridge -> Bway Express (all times)

 Coney Island to Hillside-179st via Brighton -> Bridge -> Bway Express -> 63rd St -> QB Express (all times)

 Whitehall to Astoria via Broadway Local (all times)

 LL City Hall to 71st-Forest Hills via Broadway local, QB local (rush hours/middays only)

 No changes, except doesn't run at night (use )

 Runs via 53rd st tunnel and QB Local to 71st-Forest Hills (all times)

 Jamaica Center to 57th st-6th Ave via 6th ave local (all times) 

 Extended to Forest Hills on weekends (optional)

 Metropolitan Ave to Bay Ridge-95th St (all times)

So Queens Blvd looks like this:  local,  express. Broadway now has zero merges, 4th Ave in BK gets a more reliable train and the Jamaica line gets full time 6th ave access. 

 

 

It’s true that Broadway would be deinterlined and the Jamaica El would get full time direct Midtown service (the J and M would both run overnight?) but there would be even more merging on QBL with the local  and express  merging at 36th. And the other merges that occur at Queens Plaza would still be there. Only thing that changes are the letters (the  merges with the  the same way the  currently merges with the  northbound, for example). I don’t really think the QBL needs two Broadway services. 

On 8/25/2020 at 9:47 PM, Bay Ridge Express said:

Well, how I feel about this depends on how the other two services (  and  ) would run on weekends. I'm assuming it would look something like this: 

 Coney Island-Astoria (instead of 96 St/2 Av) via Sea Beach Lcl, 4 Av Exp, Manhattan Bridge (or Montague), Broadway Lcl, Astoria Lcl

 Unchanged

 Whitehall St-Forest Hills via Broadway Lcl, Queens Blvd Lcl

 No weekend service

Which would make the ( K ) the primary service on 4 Av Lcl: 95 St-Chambers. Of course that means there would be no direct access to Broadway without the  so maybe it would be a fine idea. However, I'm not too sure if  riders would like this idea (alongside having to transfer to the  for faster, more direct service between Brooklyn and Manhattan w/o Montague Tunnel). Perhaps someone else could weigh in.

It has to do with transfers as well. Broadway service gives you easy access to the Lexington Av Line (59/Lex) and 7 Av Line (Times-42) without needing to transfer multiple trains. However, I do believe that the "just walk an extra block" argument could apply more to stations in Lower Manhattan/Lower Midtown Manhattan, where aside from Union Square and Washington Square, most stations are pretty close together and there wouldn't be much of a need to transfer.

I think the  going back to the tunnel wouldn’t be very popular with Sea Beach riders, even if it’s still express in Brooklyn. The  ran that pattern for the better part of two decades, but only because of Manhattan Bridge reconstruction. Unless that ever needs to be done again (hopefully not!), there’s not really a reason to route the  via the tunnel in regular service except overnight to replace the  or  above Whitehall.

[Bay Ridge Express]

32 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Unless new switches are installed at Whitehall permitting both  and  trains to terminate there during off-peak hours, the  would be locked into its current route. Maybe it could run express on weekends to avoid using Prince, but it would still have to merge with the  somewhere between Canal and 57th to get to Astoria. If the  is the new full-time service between Astoria and Bay Ridge and the  is part-time - which would be fine for Williamsburg, given that the  and  already run seven days there - then that would make it easy to deinterline Broadway.

I think the  going back to the tunnel wouldn’t be very popular with Sea Beach riders, even if it’s still express in Brooklyn. The  ran that pattern for the better part of two decades, but only because of Manhattan Bridge reconstruction. Unless that ever needs to be done again (hopefully not!), there’s not really a reason to route the  via the tunnel in regular service except overnight to replace the  or  above Whitehall.

Theoretically, you could have the  and  all running standard service patterns on weekends. However, I didn't think providing that much service would be necessary, so I chose to let the  have no weekend service (as it currently does). Imo, this makes sense since you cover all of the bases of service levels in the simplest way possible. This in turn, would lead to two things:

The  would have to be rerouted to Astoria instead of 96 to replace the .

There would be no direct service between Broadway and 4 Av unless the  runs local via Montague. Another option would be to have the  run there, but a) that is likely even less popular among Brighton riders and b) an additional merge would be created.

Another option would to keep the  as is and eliminate the  on weekends. However, I'm strongly against that since service levels and reliability on the  are way worse on weekends as is.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Bay Ridge Express

[Armandito]

35 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Unless new switches are installed at Whitehall permitting both  and  trains to terminate there during off-peak hours, the  would be locked into its current route. Maybe it could run express on weekends to avoid using Prince, but it would still have to merge with the  somewhere between Canal and 57th to get to Astoria. If the  is the new full-time service between Astoria and Bay Ridge and the  is part-time - which would be fine for Williamsburg, given that the  and  already run seven days there - then that would make it easy to deinterline Broadway.

It’s true that Broadway would be deinterlined and the Jamaica El would get full time direct Midtown service (the J and M would both run overnight?) but there would be even more merging on QBL with the local  and express  merging at 36th. And the other merges that occur at Queens Plaza would still be there. Only thing that changes are the letters (the  merges with the  the same way the  currently merges with the  northbound, for example). I don’t really think the QBL needs two Broadway services. 

I think the  going back to the tunnel wouldn’t be very popular with Sea Beach riders, even if it’s still express in Brooklyn. The  ran that pattern for the better part of two decades, but only because of Manhattan Bridge reconstruction. Unless that ever needs to be done again (hopefully not!), there’s not really a reason to route the  via the tunnel in regular service except overnight to replace the  or  above Whitehall.

Better yet, build tail tracks south of Whitehall to increase its capacity as a terminal.

Going back to my X proposal from before, I wish to find out about extending it along the Astoria Line to Ditmars rather than building a new subway line along 21st Street. A new mini-yard could be built north of Ditmars for rush hour layups so more trains could terminate there, and a connection along 11th Street would allow X trains to access the Queensboro Plaza station from the IND Crosstown Line. (What's even more interesting is that the original BRT/BMT proposals for the present-day Crosstown Line proposed the routing to connect between Astoria and the Franklin Avenue Line at Fulton Street.)

Edited August 27, 2020 by Armandito

[Armandito]

58 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Theoretically, you could have the  and  all running standard service patterns on weekends. However, I didn't think providing that much service would be necessary, so I chose to let the  have no weekend service (as it currently does). Imo, this makes sense since you cover all of the bases of service levels in the simplest way possible. This in turn, would lead to two things:

The  would have to be rerouted to Astoria instead of 96 to replace the .

There would be no direct service between Broadway and 4 Av unless the  runs local via Montague. Another option would be to have the  run there, but a) that is likely even less popular among Brighton riders and b) an additional merge would be created.

Another option would to keep the  as is and eliminate the  on weekends. However, I'm strongly against that since service levels and reliability on the  are way worse on weekends as is.

In that scenario, one alternative I would suggest is this service plan so customers can easily transfer to Broadway trains at Canal Street at all times:

 

Weekdays:

- 95 St to Chambers St

- 71 Av to Metropolitan Av

- 96 St to Stillwell Av via Bridge (express in Manhattan and Brooklyn)

- 71 Av to Canal St or Whitehall St

- Ditmars Blvd to 95 St

 

Weekends:

- 95 St to Metropolitan Av (replaces service)

- No service, use

- Ditmars Blvd to Stillwell Av via Bridge (local in Manhattan, express in Brooklyn)

- 71 Av to Whitehall St

- No service, use  in Queens; in Manhattan; in Brooklyn

 

Late nights:

- 95 St to Chambers St; shuttle between Myrtle Av/Broadway and Metropolitan Av (relabeled service)

- No service, use

- Ditmars Blvd to Stillwell Av via Tunnel (local only)

- No service, use in Queens; in Manhattan

- No service, use

 

service is unchanged

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Armandito

[Armandito]

1 hour ago, Armandito said:

In that scenario, one alternative I would suggest is this service plan so customers can easily transfer to Broadway trains at Canal Street at all times:

My mistake, I meant to say weekends when there is no Broadway access from Whitehall.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Armandito

[Vulturious]

4 hours ago, Armandito said:

I absolutely disagree with routing the back to Nassau Street. Ridgewood commuters would indeed be furious about losing their current one-seat ride to Midtown, and commuters living along the  line would NOT want to lose daily access to Manhattan, either. A more realistic scenario would be eliminating / skip-stop service while still maintaining the full routing to Broad Street, not the outlandish proposal you envisioned there.

 

4 hours ago, Tonyboy515 said:

Good point, the M and J routing I proposed is on the radical side. How about an  to 96th but a  to Bay Ridge? If that’s also too outlandish then I guess  routing should be unchanged, the  only runs to 96th (or Forest Hills rush hours only), and the  runs standard routing.

@Armandito Sorry, but you technically don't really have a say in this if the MTA went with this option. The MTA right now really, really, and I cannot stress this enough, REALLY needs the federal funding. It's better to send the  down towards Bay Ridge keeping it there because that would leave  trains to stay Metropolitan or Chambers. It is too far already as is for  riders going towards Bay Ridge, which also increase time to wait for a train. There isn't any other option, I'm sorry for Ridgewood riders. People usually transfer onto an express train regardless on 4th Av. So the MTA likely might have it set up as this, then again, we really don't know how this is going to turn out because of how bad the situation is. Not to mention, those in charge aren't even in charge either, it could be the Mayor making last second calls or even Cuomo and don't get me start on Cuomo. He screws transit and has no idea what he is doing, he got lucky with the  shutdown which probably would've been faster, ngl because it was ahead of schedule, but at the end of the day, Cuomo makes last calls and screws everything up. Now he is also planning on having the LGA Airtrain become a thing which is going to be useless because people would have to go all the way towards Flushing if that is the case which isn't good idea because Flushing is farther towards Long Island. Again, if the MTA does decide to go this route, it would make sense why, but as I've said again, last second call always changes everything. Now that I think about it though, there isn't a line via 6th Av that is staying weekdays either. Hell, even 8th Av has a 3rd line supporting. I want to say keep  trains as is, but I can't either because of no  trains to Bay Ridge. I guess say eliminate Skip-Stop and make  trains become the . There isn't really much other options as well.

[Union Tpke]

On 8/25/2020 at 4:27 PM, shiznit1987 said:

Here's an idea for de-interling Broadway: 

 Coney Island to 96th st/2nd Ave via Sea Beach -> Bridge -> Bway Express (all times)

 Coney Island to Hillside-179st via Brighton -> Bridge -> Bway Express -> 63rd St -> QB Express (all times)

 Whitehall to Astoria via Broadway Local (all times)

 LL City Hall to 71st-Forest Hills via Broadway local, QB local (rush hours/middays only)

 No changes, except doesn't run at night (use )

 Runs via 53rd st tunnel and QB Local to 71st-Forest Hills (all times)

 Jamaica Center to 57th st-6th Ave via 6th ave local (all times) 

 Extended to Forest Hills on weekends (optional)

 Metropolitan Ave to Bay Ridge-95th St (all times)

So Queens Blvd looks like this:  local,  express. Broadway now has zero merges, 4th Ave in BK gets a more reliable train and the Jamaica line gets full time 6th ave access. 

 

 

City Hall Lower Level can only fit 8-car trains.

[shiznit1987]

2 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

City Hall Lower Level can only fit 8-car trains.

We could send the  to 9th Ave, Brooklyn in that case.